---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Quick loss of aroma (Fred Johnson)
  Subject: Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun ("Raymond Johnson")
  Re-started fermentation in the secondary ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Simple decoction (Ted Major)
  LUNAR RENDEZBREW 5 (michael wiley)
  What is a Stout? (Malty Dog)
  Orange flavor / Cardamom (Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii)
  Wort Nutrients / Invert Sugar / Mashing Hops (KennyEddy)
  Subject: Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun ("John Arnish")
  Northern Hydraulics Death Burner (RooJahMon)
  Refractometry (George Fix) (George J Fix)
  Two Big Brew Questions ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Re: O'Doul's Amber ("Gabrielle Palmer")
  OOOPS!, Phosphine,Fusel Oil Oxidation, Chronic Disagreement ("David R. Burley")
  pH decreases with temp. ("John S. Thomas")
  RE: Getting lagers going in under 24 hours. ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Oxygen and the starter (ricjohnson)
  RIMS and flaked maize? (David A Bradley)
  RE: Hop Trellis (John Wilkinson)
  Stout ("David R. Burley")
  Bert Grant's IPA Question (SCHNEIDERB)
  Making a Starter... ("Lee, Ken")
  Htr Elements (David A Bradley)
  iodophore,betadine, RTD (RIMS) (Ian Smith)
  Screw-top bottles (Jeremy York)
  breathalyzers / USOpen results ("Keith Royster")
  Belgian questions (Jonathan Ingram)
  Another good reason to drink beer ("Ed Olsen / Kathy Riley")


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 07:35:55 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Quick loss of aroma

I just reentered an American pale ale into a local competition that
previously took 1st place in another local competition.  In the first
competition, the comments that came back were, "Nice hops up front.", "Nice
hoppy aroma. Right on style.", and "Shouts HOPS!" from three judges,
respectively.  This same beer when judged six weeks later scored 10 points
lower with the following comments from the two judges, respectively,
"Overall aroma & bouquet very low" and "Low hop aroma".

I've only been brewing for  a year and a half and have never read that aroma
degenerates with time (and so quickly).  Would someone please explain how
this could be?

- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina





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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 07:39:38 -0400
From: "Raymond Johnson" <JOHNSONR2 at state.mi.us>
Subject: Subject: Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun

Clean the hell out of your fermenters, and anything that touches your
COOLED wort; don't worry about the mast tun.  Just don't leave crud in it.

If you think of it this way, you'll never ask how to clean a mash tun
again. How sanitized is your grain?  How many beasties are in the
grain?  How much residual dirt, bug carcass, etc. are in your grain?

A good rinse with clean water, and a soft sponge is absolutely sufficient
to clean your mash tun.  Also, make sure you clean/rinse your spigot 
of residual wort too.  I use the Gott cooler too, this is my procedure, 
and I've never had a problem.  As you suspect, the boil kills anything
that could affect the final product.  It's important to remember that
your beer is most susceptible while it's fermenting.  Look at any 
homebrew book that addresses trouble shooting, and you'll notice no 
mention of infections that are caused by the mash.

Temperature(148-155 deg. F), keeping your water level one inch above
the grainbed, mashing long enough to get adequate starch conversion, 
and not splashing hot wort during the sparge,  are your main concerns 
with the mash.

rj

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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:21:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re-started fermentation in the secondary

I know others have had this problem, but I have never seen the question 
posed of the behavior of a infected ferment?

Here's the situation, I brewed a APA with the following recipe.

Volume:  5.0 gallons
O.G. 1.056
F.G  ?????
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
   All Grain
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Grains/Fermentables        Lbs        Hops      AAU     Oz  Min
Pale, American 2 Row      7.75        Cascade   4.9   1.50   60
Cara-pils, American       1.00        Cascade   4.9   0.50   30
Crystal 40, American      1.00        Cascade   4.9   1.50   0
Wheat, Midwest Malt       1.00        Cascade   4.9   1.50  dry 
 
Yeast YL A02=American ale 

When the airlock activity stopped and the gravity checked, it showed 1.022
(this is expected with the above grain bill).  I racked to a secondary
with the dry hops, this was Friday the April 24th.  I also noticed after
about 30 minutes, that there was alot of yeast at the bottom of the
fementer, almost like all the yeast settled out instantly 8-|

Anyways, the next time I checked on it (April 27th) there was arilock 
activity of a blurp every 10 seconds!

The question is, if the batch got infected, will the behavior look like a 
normal ferment relative to airlock activity?

Or is it possible that the hops made an adjustment to the PH that favored 
the yeast range and they just started fermenting again?

Cheers
_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:03:56
From: Ted Major <tidmarsh at mindspring.com>
Subject: Simple decoction

Tim in Lowell, Mass asks about an easy single decoction.  I mash in a 5-gal 
Igloo cylindrical cooler with a Phil's Phalse bottom and regularly do
single decoctions for German style beers, usu. Maerzens and Alts with
German or 
Belgian malts.  I mash in at 135F at about 1.3 qt/lb and immediately pull 
about 25% of the volume of the mash, which is about a gallon most of the
time.  
I scoop the first quart out of the top and then use a slotted spoon to get 
mostly grain for the other three quarts.  I heat that to 154F or so for 10-15 
min and in the meantime start a couple of gallons of water boiling in case I 
need it to hit the right conversion temp (which I often do).  After the
rest at 
154F, I heat to boiling for 15 min and then add back to the main mash, along 
with whatever boiling water I need to hit my desired conversion temp.  It's a 
fairly easy process that only adds about 30-40 mins to my mash time, and
it's interesting to see how much the grain has dakened when I add it back
to the 
main mash. 

At the end of the mash, I also draw off about a gallon of the first runnings 
and boil them to raise to mashout temps, regardless of whether I've decocted 
the mash.  Depending on my mood I either bring to a boil and add back to the 
mash or I boil for 15 mins or so for extra caramelization.

I agree that a protein rest generally isn't necessary for modern malts, but 
a 135F hold doesn't seem to hurt my beer's body or head retention, and the 
color and flavor effects are worth my trouble.

Cheers,

Tidmarsh Major
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
Birmingham, Alabama
"Bot we must drynk as we brew,
   And that is bot reson."
    -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:49:00 -0500
From: michael wiley <mwiley3 at pdq.net>
Subject: LUNAR RENDEZBREW 5

Has a year passed so SOON ???????

It's Lunar Rendezbrew time again down on the beautiful shores of Seabrook,
TX... The Bay Area Mashtronauts proudly annouce that Lunar Rendezbrew 5 is
set for Sunday, July 19th at the Bay Area's newest Brew Pub, BOONDOGGLES
!!!!!!

Details will be found on the Bay Area MAshtronaut Page in the next couple
of weeks... For those of you in the Greater Houston Area, we are looking
for Judges and stewards. If interested, email me at the following addresses:
HOME : mwiley3 at pdq.net
WORK : gilbertlaw at aol.com

As always, lots of Houston Area Brew Pub beer on hand, GAMES, and a great
time to be had by all..... DON'T MISS OUT !!!!! 


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:56 EDT
From: Malty Dog <MaltyDog at aol.com>
Subject: What is a Stout?

Hans E. Hansen writes, in HBD  #2702:

My personal preference (which carries no weight in the matter) would
be for Porter to be black guzzling beer and Stout to be black sipping
beer.  This would harken back to the 'Stout Porter' terminology
that some writers (but not all, no flames here please) suggest is the
origin for Stout.

That's a reasonable enough suggestion, except for the fact that by far
the most popular Stout in the world, and for many people, the only one
they're familiar with, is Guinness, which, on draft, is certainly a 'guzzling'
(session) beer. That's a guidepost you cannot get around, when trying to
decide what the style is. If Guinness is not a stout, then what is?

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:57:58 -0400
From: Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Orange flavor / Cardamom

Recent posts have discussed the difference between Curacao orange peel
(bitter) in Belgian Ales or other ways to get true orange flavor / aroma.
AlK suggests that if you want real orange flavor to use an extract.  No
offense to Al, he knows more about brewing than I do, but I tried an orange
extract for a mead and hated it.  It tasted like "faux orange", just not
natural.  This was also mentioned WRT raspberry extracts in Stouts.
Anyhow, how about Cardamom?  I find it has a very citrusy, orange nose and
flavor.  Now, I don't believe that is the only flavor imparted either, so I
would like to hear how others may describe the taste / aroma imparted by
Cardomom.

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI




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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:34:47 EDT
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: Wort Nutrients / Invert Sugar / Mashing Hops

AlK wrote:

"I have to disagree most strongly that nutrients or
B vitamins would help... there are *more* than enough of these in
an all-malt Barleywine."

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask.  As someone who
routinely "builds" brewing water profiles from RO water plus salts, I've
lately come to wonder about the need for supplemental minerals for yeast
nutrition, zinc and copper in particular.  I searched the HBD archives and
came up with similar questions but no definitive answers.  Using zinc
supplement tablets was suggested, as well as reference to throwing pennies
into the boiler (I do have some copper fittings in there), but only passing
speculation was made as to whether a typical all-malt wort has sufficient
trace copper and zinc for proper yeast nutrition.

Another remedy suggested was to use yeast nutrient -- not the crysalline
diammonium phosphate but the "yeast energizer" stuff.  Yet another suggested
tossing old dry yeast into the boil.  Are there adequate traces of copper and
zinc in these substances?

*****

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the sugars in honey are inverted,
and that honey can be used in place of invert sugar.  Any comments from our
inverted chemists?

*****

Steve Cavan reports on adding hops to his mash:

"I used 22. Target (8.3%) and 15g Challenger (8.2%) for the 90 minute mash.
I had about 4kg of grain for a gravity of 1.053 in 20 liters. 
I also added 1 plug of Goldings (5%) for 60 minute boil

At a guess I would say the final IBU level is between 35 and 40."

I ran these data through SUDS using Tinseth's curves (as provided by SUDS),
based on the Goldings plug being 1/2 ounce.  I put the Goldings at 5% in the
bill for 60 minutes and a total of 37g of 8.3% hops for 90 minutes, and
reduced the 8.3% hops until the predicted IBUs was about 37.  I had to reduce
the 37 grams to 27 grams.  Based on this back-of-envelope, one-data-point,
many-uncontrolled-variables exercise (and never mind whether Steve's palate is
properly IBU-calibrated), the mashed hops yielded 73% of the bitterness
compared with boiling.  This might at least be a fair starting point for IBU
calculations for those wishing to try the method.

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Fri, 01 May 98 10:10:56 -0600
From: "John Arnish"<arnishj at smtplink.dis.anl.gov>
Subject: Subject: Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun


     Matt:
     
     I have been using a GOTT/Rubermaid cooler for mashing, as well.  
     I simply wash out the cooler and in my case the manifold using 
     warm/hot water after brewing.  I figure this will disolve any 
     residual sugars that may remain along the sides or inside the 
     manifold.  
     
     The day of brewing I sanitize my cooler using iodine in lukewarm 
     water.  This way I preheat my cooler and sanitize it  at the same 
     time.  
     
     Hope this helps
     
     John A




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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:40:47 -0600
From: RooJahMon <RooJahMon at Brew-Meister.Com>
Subject: Northern Hydraulics Death Burner

Well, the Death burner is what I call it. I ordered the burner Harry
Bush mentioned seeing in the latest Northern flyer. The burner is made
of cheap cast pot-metal (China) with no assembly instructions. the first
two they sent me arrived broken, and the gas jets wouldn't have lined
up  anyway. Through a shipping mix up, I got my burner for free, and
that is the only price I would pay for it. That being said, it does work
ok and is very adjustable, but again the materials and craftsmanship are
a bit scary.

Enter the brinkman burner. I also bought a Brinkman burner/smoker/BBQ at
walmart on sale for $80. It comes with an adjustable regulator, a
healthy stand and good instructions. It smokes a mean pheasant and does
quick work with a batch of beer. It is a bit sooty at very low temps,
but that could probably be cured with an air adjustment.

Water muddy yet? Home Depot sells a burner for $40 that looks the
ticket, if you don't want the smoker stuff. Haven't used one, but the
price is right and it includes the regulator. 

If I were better compensated from 9-5 I would buy the Surperb (sp?). The
square one. Curt Schroeder hauled his to the top of 14433' Mt Elbert and
we boiled 2.5 gallons of water in less than 15 minutes, even with a
breeze. The quality construction is worth every penny.

Unless otherwise specified:
	RHG

"Beer makes better love-handles, and love-handles make the world go
around (or at least up and down)"


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Date: Fri, 1 May 98 10:48:09 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Refractometry (George Fix)


Note: This post is not meant to add to the (seemingly endless) gravity
measurement debate, but rather to answer the specific question
Harlan Bauer had about about refractometers. Therefore, Burley, Walsh,
et al should put away their torches and do a Pg Dn!

Refractometry has for a long time been the method of choice for gravity
measurements in commercial brewing. A complete set of protocols can be
found in ASBC's "Methods of Analysis", or alternatively in the abridged
version "Lab Methods for Craft Brewers" that they recently published.

As far as wort is concerned I have found that results from these methods
can be well approximated with the simple hand held refractometers sold
by Cole Palmer and others. A special feature of this method is that only a
drop of solution is needed to get a gravity reading.

The problem with these instruments is the one cited by George De Piro, 
namely alcohol interference with the gravity-refractive index
relationship. Moreover, errors from this can be very large (e.g. see
data below). Commercial equipment takes care of this internally by
what is in effect distillation.

The alcohol interference is not random, so there is some hope that 
correction factors can be developed for  simple refractometers.
The wine literature does have correction factors (references
can be found e.g. in the classic book "Table Wines" by Amerling
and Joslyn). However, the significant differences in fermenting
(or fermented) wine must compared to beer wort leads to errors on the
order of 10-15% when used for beer. 

Several years ago (in a consulting project was working on at the time)
I came across some data that is alleged to be specific to beer. I have
used these ever since in both my personal brewing as well as consulting,
and find them to be within 1% of that obtained from high precision 
equipment. We started to include this data in our recent book, but
Laurie vetoed the idea because we had no references, and she was 
uncomfortable with the phrase "data from unknown sources". In any case,
the following are some samples.

Notation:

      SG_R = specific gravity as measured by a refractometer ( a
             Cole Parmer unit)

       OG = original gravity of the wort before fermentation

       SG_A = actual specific gravity 
             


 SG_R           OG           SG_A
- ---------     --------     -----------
1.020          1.040        1.018
               1.050        1.012
               1.060        1.007

1.024          1.040        1.020
               1.050        1.015
               1.060        1.009

1.028          1.040        1.022
               1.050        1.017 
               1.060        1.011

Observe that SG_A is essentially a linear function of OG and SG_R
(a point I find somewhat troubling). Moreover, the complete data set
shares this feature. However, from a practical point of view the
relationships appear to be within 1% of the actual ones.

Cheers.

George Fix




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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:48:19 -0500
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: Two Big Brew Questions

Sorry to waste bandwidth on a topic not interesting to everybody, but I
will make it short...

I want to avoid getting BW spooge all over my basement floor. Is there a
chemical additive widely available that can knock down the huge krausen
head that I have been told to expect?

In lieu of that, I will try to chill a water bath and lower the temp. But I
want some esters, and fusels so this will age into something smooth and
tasty. Help!?!

Jeff

- -------------------
Jeff Kenton		brewer at iastate.edu
Ames, Iowa		jkenton at iastate.edu	(515) 294 9997




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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:52 -0400
From: "Gabrielle Palmer" <gpalmer6 at ford.com>
Subject: Re: O'Doul's Amber

Ken Schwartz writes:

>  I would take exception to Marshall's comment about NA's lacking
> body and hopping.  I find Kaliber, Buckler, and Clausthaler to be
> pretty dang tasty NA's, with a definite hop presence.

While reviewing 9 NA beers (I only reviewed NA beers from European
breweries) for my homebrew club's latest newsletter (see
http:\\hbd.org\ford\ for more details), I came to a conclusion.
NA beers either taste like watered-down versions of that brewery's
regular products, or like carbonated, unfermented wort (or malta).
There are a few rare exceptions to this rule.

My very favorite happened to be brewed by Warsteiner and was
definitely the exception to the rule.  Here is the list of NA beers
that I reviewed, in order of preference:

1. Warsteiner NA - Warsteiner, Germany
2. Thomas Brau NA - Paulaner, Germany
3. Buckler NA - Heineken, Holland
4. Kaliber NA - Guinness, Ireland
5. Haake Beck - Beck & Co., Germany
6. N.A. Pevo - Velke Popovice, Czech Republic
7. Clausthaler NA - Binding, Germany
8. St. Pauli NA - St. Pauli, Germany
9. Prostel Alkoholfrei - Kaiserdom, Germany


- --
Cheers!
Gabrielle Palmer
Ford Vehicle Operations - Die Design Standards Department
Cube:  GB-M71             Building: Product Development Center
Phone: (313)594-2107      PROFS ID: GPALMER6
Fax:   (313)322-4359      internet: gpalmer6 at be0962.pd3.ford.com


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:54:24 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: OOOPS!, Phosphine,Fusel Oil Oxidation, Chronic Disagreement

Brewsters:

I made a mistake in my tirade on NMR/MRI with Dean Fikar
and Fred Willis pointed it out privately to me. I apologized
to Dean privately for this screw-up.  While my main point is
correct, that nuclei do not emit radio frequency under the
influence of a magnetic field, it is the relaxation of the excited
nuclei to ground state which have absorbed RF supplied by the
NMR spectrometer that is detected by the NMR/MRI
spectrometer, not the absorption of RF energy.

As I pointed out, it is the magnetic field which makes a
difference in energy between the with and against the field
of the nuclear spin and allows the nuclei to absorb the
RF energy.

However, I also said to Dean: 


Also, there has been a lot of fluff lately in the New Age
media and in past non-scientific publications dating
back to the 1800's and further  about the imagined
influence of magnetism on the human body and its
functions. So far this has no basis in fact, just wishful
thinking and in some cases on the part of shysters looking
to lighten your wallet.  The fact that any nuclei in any object
finds an energy difference between up an down field is
a fact.  Does this somehow influence the functioning
of the human body as this statement may imply to some?

I wait to see the evidence.
- ----------------------------------------------
Jorge Blasig says that he was told that grain is treated with
Phosphine gas as a way of disinfecting grain.  I was surprised
by this statement in the absence of other information since
phosphine gas at atmospheric pressure in the presence of
oxygen is spontaneously flammable.  This is reputed to be
caused by the presence of diphosphine which is naturally
present in phosphine at this pressure. 


It is true that phosphine gas is extremely poisonous to
humans ( and I suppose other living creatures)
and I suppose if it were diluted to ppm levels in nitrogen it
could be used this way. In my opinion the grain  would be
safe to use, since phosphine ( which is the phosphorous
equivalent of ammonia) is very reactive and would disappear
quickly from the grain and the quantities are so small.

The fact that the supplier says that the grains are fit for
human consumption is the best proof that these grains
can be used for brewing.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
George De Piro says:

> On the bright side, given enough time, the higher alcohols
will 

>     oxidize and the beer will take on a nice, aged,
sherry-like character 

>     that is appropriate (even desirable) in barley wines.  


This is the first time I have ever heard this as it relates to
barley wines.  Do you have more information on this?
What is the oxygen source, particularly with carbonated
wines?

I always assumed it was esterification as in grape wines
that was the normally active pathway to remove the fusel
alcohols and provide a bouquet to the barley wines.  I guess
I don't understand why fusel alcohols would be
preferentially oxidized before ethanol which is in
substantially larger quantities.
- -----------------------------------------
AlK says on the subject of invert sugar:

>Just to show that I don't immediately disagree with Dave on
>everything... I agree 100%.

Actually we agree on by far more things than we disagree on.
We both know that, it just may not look like it if you only read
the HBD.
- ------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:39:46 -0700
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: pH decreases with temp.


Al Korzonas  wrote
I hope you just accidentally typed that first statement backwards. As
it is, pH *decreses* with higher temp. Also, your post was very close to
an advertisement. Many of us have things to advertise but restrain
ourselves. HBD is not the place for this. If your products are good
enough, a satisfied customer will post something on your behalf.

Al you are correct in both instances.

pH and probe life both decrease with increasing temperatures.  I wish I
could say I am dyslectic but think the D word fits better.

Also re-read my line and agree with you it does sound like advertising.  I
meant it to be informative about ideas or ratings verses cost.  Thanks for
catching the error Al.  I will be more careful not to offend the rules the
next time.

John S. Thomas
Hobby Beverage Equipment
Jthomas at minibrew.com
909-676-2337





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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:05:41 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE: Getting lagers going in under 24 hours.

Jon Bovard asks in HBD2701 about how he can get his lag time reduced to
less than 36 hours when  brewing lagers.

Jon,
I too, used to have the same problem when pitching what I believed to be
adequate yeast starters in my lagers. Now I can get my lagers fermenting
within 4-6 hours pretty consistantly. Here is what I do as a general
rule. ALL of my lager yeast starters are a minmum of 2 liters. I do not
decant off any of the wort. If I start it from a slant, I step it up
starting from 20 ml to 100 ml, then on to 500, 1000, 2000.
I know this is alot of transferring, and the risk of contamination is
increased with so many steps, but I haven't had one go bad yet. If I use
a new culture pack (typically 50 ml) then I just skip the first two
steps and go straight to 500, 1000, 2000. 

Now comes what I have discovered to be the most important part. I am
sure that most other brewer's will agree. OXYGEN!!!! I ALWAYS oxygenate
my wort for at least 30-45 minutes prior to pitching any yeast, lager or
otherwise. I use a 100% Medical O2 setup that I get from my wife's
company. Fortunately for me, she runs a medical supply and home IV
infusion company and has provided me with alot of cool gear that just
happens to come in pretty handy in my brewery. (Like a  laminar flow
hood for yeast culturing!!) I hook the tank up to a common aquarium
plastic hose and aerating stone and plop it into the brewpot along with
my immersion chiller and let er' rip. You could use just about any
common air pump to do the same thing yourself. Just make sure that you
sterlize the airflow somehow like maybe with alcohol soaked cotton or
something like that. 
There's one other trick you could try also. I just did this with my last
lager three weeks ago and I got a nice krausen head in just 4 hours, no
kidding! Aerate the starter too along with the wort just prior to
pitching it.

I have also heard (or read somewhere) that you could pitch the starter
into the wort at a slightly higher temperature, like maybe 70-80F.
Chances are good that you will get a quicker start, but you might be
risking both yeast shock, and off flavors in the finished beer that are
undesirable in lagers. That happened to me in my early attempts at
lagers. What I would recommend is to pitch at close to the temperature
you are going to ferment at and make sure that the wort and yeast
starter are within a few degrees of each other to prevent shocking the
starter.

I will also highly recommend buying and reading Greg Noonan's "New
Brewing Lager Beer". (not affiliated) It may be a little techie, but I
have learned a tremendous amount about lagers from it and consider it a
manditory manual in your brewing library if you plan on getting serious
about brewing good lager beers.

Hope this helped you out. Good Luck!

- -- 
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:24:17 -0400
From: ricjohnson at SURRY.NET
Subject: Oxygen and the starter

Sorry to bring up the aeration thread again. While in a homebrew shop last
week I was pondering an oxygen cannister to use in lew of aeration (shaking
the carboy). The shop owner told me to just oxygenate the starter (1 quart)
and not the wort (carboy). Never heard this before. Is this adequate?

Richard Johnson
Mount Airy, NC



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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:12:58 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at lilly.com>
Subject: RIMS and flaked maize?

In my first test of a new false btm (Sabco) and pump system, heading towards
RIMS,
I brewed a "CAA" (Classic American Ale...hi Jeff!).  I did a cereal mash with
the flaked maize
and 20 wt% pale ale malt, then combined this with the remaining malt and
additional strike
water.  The cereal mash was: 118F(20min)->156F(50min)->boiling(40min), and the
main mash equilibrated at 149F when all was added and mixed.  Trying to get
recirculation via my pump at low flow (<0.5gal/min I'd est), I compacted the
bed.  Stirred and
allowed the bed to settle, the pump was started again: same result.

Grain bill: 75% M&F pale ale malt, 5% M&F light xstal, 20% flaked maize.  This
was
for a 12gal batch size.

My question: anyone have experience with circulating during the mash of
a similar loading of flaked maize?

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.




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Date: Fri, 1 May 98 12:56:09 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Hop Trellis

John Varady submitted his design for a hop trellis and it was clever, I thought.

Made of galvanized pipe set in cement and extending up to 17 feet high he said
of it:

>Now you have a nice high pole to string up your hop vines.


It sounds like you might have one hell of a lightning rod, too.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:36:06 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Stout

Brewsters:

Matt Brooks sent me an excellent summary of the case for
the name of Stout deriving from "Stout Porter".  He sent this
to me in response to my paraphrasing of Lewis' position
that the name Stout preceded Porter. Perhaps he would
care to include a copy of his comments in the HBD

I said in response to his Matt's summary:

Thanks for the comments on the origin of Stout Porter.I
 know this is a commonly used argument and pretty
compelling. I was just saying that Lewis presumably
having considered this readily available information also,
is led to believe there was such a discontinuity( in his
opinion) that Stout and Porter may have originated separately
and then merged. ( or so I interpret it)  He makes his
argument based on the import duties, malt-paid tax
( how they taxed beer in those days) and the like.
The Irish brewers were under the thumb of the British
taxman and subjected to far greater indignities than
their counterparts in England.  Guiness used roasted
barley and thus didn't have to pay tax on that portion of
the grist.

Lewis even quotes a letter in 1677 which reads:
 "We will drink to your health both in stout and best wine"
Implying that as early as 1677 Stout was applied to a
distinct beer. Irishman ( so says Lewis - my dictionary
says English) Jonathan Swift (1667-1745) writes in a poem

"Or kindly when his credit's out,
Surprise him with a pint of stout".

Which makes the point, I guess,  that this is unlikely
referring to Stout Porter, since the first known mention
of Porter is later in time.

Perhaps the confusion is the Irish versus the British scene.
Lewis says in a chapter titled Stout Brewing in England  p 22
 "Although I earlier argued the case for stout preceding porter,
there is clear evidence that commercial brewing of stout in
England grew out of the wide popularity of Porter in London
and elsewhere." He even quotes a British reference in 1805
which says: London Porter "better known as Brown Stout".
 

This may explain the source of confusion.

My American Heritage Dictionary says that "Porter - A dark
beer resembling light stout, made from malt browned
or charred at a high temperature. [Short for Porter's Beer]"

Under Stout it says: "A strong very dark beer or ale"

In My Dictionary of English (i.e. Oxford) Etymology it says:

Stout :'a cant name for a strong beer', (after Dr. Johnson)
strong variety of Porter. Probably ellip for S. Ale or S. Beer,
the adjective being applied to a drink having good body."

Note the definition of stout did not say "Stout Porter" which
agrees with Lewis' position that Stout was used for any
strong beer or ale, likely before Porter came to be used.

I guess that solves everything.  8^)


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:29:32 -0500 
From: SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com
Subject: Bert Grant's IPA Question

I am interested in brewing an IPA similar to this amazing beer and am
looking for information on hops variety(ies) and hopping rate. As he states
on the label it's the only propperly hopped IPA in America. My brew will be
an all grain version so any information from the HBD forum is appreciated -
tia - bas


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:33:21 -0600
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
Subject: Making a Starter...

Approximatly how much DME is added per cup of water to make a 1.040
starter?  I don't want to use a hydrometer (mine doesn't seem to be very
accurate anyways).  I usually just add about 2/3 cup DME per 2 cups of
water then boil it down to around a 1 1/2 cups.  I just want something a
little more accurate to go by.

Thanks,

Kenneth Lee
klee at resdata.com



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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:15:56 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at lilly.com>
Subject: Htr Elements


Heating elements: someone who uses the hardware store variety, can you please
tell me what this element looks like after use in a copper pipe RIMS
application?
I seem to have lost the shiny (zinc?) coating to reveal a copper layer
underneath,
or the element plated out some copper from the surrounding pipe.  This was
just with
tap water, not a batch of beer.  I'm looking at buying one of the Grainger
type of
elements so I won't be concerned about potential leaching or dissolution of my
element.

Just curious.

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.




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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:02:10 -0700
From: Ian Smith <isrs at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: iodophore,betadine, RTD (RIMS)


Does anyone know the difference (if any) between iodophore and hospital 
betadine? Can betadine be used as a brewing equipment sanitizer?

Does anyone measure temperature (RIMS etc) with a resistive temperature 
device (RTD) ? I need a circuit that can convert 100 to 138 ohms (0 to 
100 deg C) to 0 to 5 volts so I can read the temp with a computer. 


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:42:33 -0700
From: Jeremy York <jeremy at ThemeMedia.com>
Subject: Screw-top bottles

I've been making meads and cysers for some time now, and have
just recently gotten into brewing beers (partially for quick
gratification, partially because I want to learn to do Barley Wine
and Braggots).

I've usually used champagne bottles and 22 oz beer bottles, but
now find myself needing to bottle in 12 oz bottles as well.  Now,
I have some vague recollection that one shouldn't use bottles with
the exterior threading that allows for "twist-off" caps in home
brewing.  Am I imagining things, or are these bottles better put
in the recycling bin?

I must say, I've learned a heck of a lot since starting to brew
beers, and I'm excited because I think it will improve my mead
and cider making tremendously.  Just having more books and so on,
and more modern things to refer to, has helped a lot.  Also, I used
to think that there wasn't any need for me to homebrew beer;
afterall, in the land of microbrews, there's a vast assortment
of quality beers to try, right?  They're going to do it better than I
could anyway, right?

Having made the plunge, that line of thinking went
up in a puff of smoke.  For example, I'm eagerly anticipating the
end of summer (before it even starts) so that I can try my hand
at making some traditional Scottish and Scotch Ales.  I've been
enjoying my first flawed attempt at it far more than Grant's
dubiously named Scottish Ale.
- -- 
Jeremy York           Projectionist    "Immersed, I explore.
ThemeMedia Inc.       VOX 425 602-3557   Text, not read, is understood. 
jeremy at ThemeMedia.com FAX 425 602-3570   Words into wisdom."
vmail 425 298-5933    http://thememedia.com


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:21:28 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: breathalyzers / USOpen results

Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net> says on the subject of breathalyzers-

> There is some residual air that remains
> in the lungs and the trachea, this is called the tidal volume if my memory
> serves me correctly.  This tidal volume is where the alcohol traces are
> collected that the breathalyzer is meant to measure. A sure fire way to
> remove the traces of alcohol from the sample is to replace or dilute this
> tidal volume with fresh air...to do this simply take several very deep
> inhales followed by a very forceful exhale, trying to force every last bit
> of air from your lungs....doing this in rapid succession will reduce the
> measurable amount of alcohol in your breathalyzer sample.

Sure, but I'd be so dizzy from repeated deep exhales that I would probably fail 
because I couldn't walk a straight line =)  Speaking of ways to "beat" the 
system, I vaguely remember hearing that either eucalyptus or menthalatum (as 
in cough drops) can throw these beathalyzers off.  (sorry if this has been 
discussed and I missed it.)  Anybody able to comment on the validity of this?

Also, the results of the USOpen homebrew competition can be found at our web 
site, http://www.ays.net/brewmasters/.

Keith Royster - Mooresville/Charlotte, North Carolina

email: keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers


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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonathan Ingram <jonathaningram at yahoo.com>
Subject: Belgian questions

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about a Belgian called
Liefeman's Goudenband. I just tried it and liked it a lot. I am
familiar with the name Liefeman's I am really trying to find out what
Goudenband is, style, etc. My friends also just bought me a bottle of
Chimay Cinq Cent for my birthday; from my experience with French this
translates to Five Hundred, I was just trying to figure out what the
correlation was, and if anyone had a recipe for brewing something
similar ( not a grain recipe, I haven't gotten that far yet). Thanks,
Jon



 

==
Jonathan Ingram
We Are Penn State!
JonathanIngram at yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:41:16 -0700
From: "Ed Olsen / Kathy Riley" <olsen-riley at worldfront.com>
Subject: Another good reason to drink beer

With all due credit to my friend, Tim Mcoy:
A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo. When 
the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back 
that are killed first.
This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the 
general  speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the 
regular culling of the weakest members.
In much the same way the human brain can only operate as fast as the 
slowest  brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills 
brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain 
cells first.
In this way regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain 
cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.  That's 
why you always  feel smarter after a few beers.
Ed Olsen / Kathy Riley
olsen-riley at worldfront.com


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