---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Coronas and Limes ("Gregg Soh")
  Wort Chiller / Starting up again! (Richard Parker)
  Fridge cycling (fridge)
  RIMS Pump purchase update ("Matthew J. Harper")
  Re: Italian Made SS 304 Kettles? (Kenneth B Johnsen <NADB>)
  Oatmeal Stout (Rod Schaffter)
  culturing over flame (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Caramel malt/Phil Seitz/outdoors/chiller/wits ("Jim Busch")
  Priming for better head ("Martin & Christine")
  ISO Glass airlock (Bill_Rehm)
  Re: Torrified wheat / gram scale (Jeff Renner)
  Use of slaked lime to precipitate bicarbonate (Steve Jackson)
  Split Boil/Sanitation/Vegas (John Varady)
  Re: "culuturing" over flame -clarification of previous post ("Anton Verhulst")
  Fining in the kettle with Irish moss ("Anton Verhulst")
  Re: Fining in the kettle with Irish moss (Alan Edwards)
  Yeast Starters (Again!) (Marc.Arseneau)
  Oatmeal recipes, yeast vs bacteria, sanitation, fridge, unwelcomed goats (Samuel Mize)
  Pumpkin and Steam ("John Watts")
  Gram scales ("Mercer, David")
  Wing Cappers/Rubber Bottoms/Oud Bruin/Webmasters ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Re:  Limes in Corona (sorry) ("Kaczorowski, Scott")
  RE: Wing Cappers/Rubber Bottoms/Oud Bruin/Webmasters (MIS, SalemVA)"
  Re: Limes in Corona (Bob Devine)
  freshest hops? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Cordials (Dan McLaughlin & Christine Griffith)
  extract brix ratings (JPullum127)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:43:10 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Coronas and Limes

I recall that I too was once told by a friend that the limes that came 
with Coronas in South America were supposed to be used for wiping the 
bottle tops off. Never cared very much for the stuff myself. Oh well, 
even if I never touch the stuff, it's popularity is kinda good for me, 
since I tend to use these bottles for homebrew quite a bit and I can get 
crates of them. It's clear so I can see immediately if my finings or 
crash cooling have worked. Of course, I never put them in sunlight, just 
in the refigerator, since ambient temp around here is about 95F.

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:31:05 +0100
From: Richard Parker <rparker at ims.ltd.uk>
Subject: Wort Chiller / Starting up again!

Hi all,

Firstly thanks to Al K, Spencer Thomas, and Philip Wilcox for their
replies to my question in #2748 about my high-tech tubing for the wort
chiller. It's been decided to put the whole lot in series giving 6 foot
of heat exchanger, encase the whole shebang in PVC drain pipe (I was way
ahead of you Al!) and try and attach something to so it can be hung from
somewhere in the kitchen (my girlfriend is going to love this, 18th
centuary 3rd floor flat for a brewery...). I'll try and document the
process of building this, and give a few numbers about it's efficiency,
I'll post the URL when it's done, now to find a good plumbers supply
house...

Now, for the first brew for over 2 years <gulp> I want to do a Pale Ale,
but very hoppy to give that passion fruit, kiwi fruit, mango-ey flavour.
(a la Rooster's Brewery if any of you know it) so... (all UK
measurements)

St Andrewgate Pale Ale

For 5 gallons :

9lbs Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt
8oz Caramunich
8oz Malted Wheat
2oz Cascade 90 mins
2oz Cascade 30 mins
2oz Cascade 2 mins

Wyeast 1338

Critique please? I've never used Caramunich before, but I don't like the
sweetness imparted by Crystal at this sort of quantity and I want some
body with slight residual sweetness so it seemed ideal. The hopping,
well, I want LOTS of aroma, but should I go more complex and use a
Fuggles/Goldings combo for the bittering instead of cascade? Also should
I be temperature stepping this, or is a simple infusion mash OK?

Thanks in advance,

Rich

Richard Parker - Brewing in York, UK
richparker at earthling.net



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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:22:37 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Fridge cycling

Greetings folks,
 
 "AllDey" Paul asked about his fridge that runs too much, and 
doesn't cool properly.

 Modern fridges use smaller compressors and better insulation to 
increase energy efficiency. This results in more frequent cycling. 
Expect a newer fridge to run about 50% of the time with an average 
food load and an ambient temp of 75 degF or so.

 In Paul's case the symptoms suggest either a worn compressor or 
an insufficient refrigerant charge. Be aware that there must be a 
leak in the system for it to be short of refrigerant. Simply recharging 
the system is both irresponsible and illegal. It also will probably not 
work.  
 
 Here's why. Evaporator pressure may be below ambient in a fridge 
running with a short charge. If so, air and moisture will be drawn 
into the system through any leak. Air in the system will prevent it 
from cooling properly - even if the proper amount of refrigerant is 
added.

 A proper repair would be to recover all remaining refrigerant from 
the system.The leak must be found and repaired. The system then 
must be evacuated and recharged with the proper amount of 
refrigerant. This should cost more than $100 to have done.

 The above assumes the compressor is ok. If the compressor is 
bad, add another $100-$200 to the bill. A replacement fridge looks 
attractive.

 Keep in mind when shopping for a used fridge that one more than 
10 years old will probably cost enough more in energy cost to pay 
monthly payments on a new fridge. 
Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:56:29 -0400
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: RIMS Pump purchase update

About 2 months ago during a discussion about RIMS pumps I
wrote that I had tried to contact Moving Brews but had not 
had any luck in the few times I had tried.

Bill Stewart, owner of Moving Brews, saw my posting and
dropped me a personal note apologizing for my misfortune
in not contacting him asked what we had to do to synch up.

We traded a  couple of messages and then spoke on the phone 
for a while about brew stuff and I placed my order for a
pump, some tubing & other stuff.  Bill was extremely pleasant
to deal with and was honest and curious about my own plans 
and uses for the equipment.  Took his time to give me some info
into his operation as well.  Coming from New Hampshire I've
gotten spoiled by continually pleasant service up here in 
Friendly New England. (grew up in NY, Lived in several other 
states... 'tis nicer up here!).  Bill would fit right in!  <grin>

My stuff arrived on time, intact, etc.  

I am *extremely* happy with the pump, which for the life of me I
cannot recall the name here at work... (The higher capacity of
the two high temp ones if anyone cares.)  Worked like *A Charm*,
as did the high temp neoprene I purchased.  Didn't soften too much
at 200 degrees.  nice stuff!

All in all, my experience with Moving Brews has been quite satisfying
and I will most certainly order from them again should I need more stuff
(and we all need more brew stuff! :-)

I'm posting this to dispel any wrong impressions I may have given 
folks about Moving Brews in my earlier posting.  Bill is doing a
great service for the Home Brew community and I'd hate to be a 
cause for him to lose business.  He has much of what I and others
need in one place for very reasonable prices.  It has let me concentrate
on brewing beer instead of hunting for stuff I need to brew beer the
way I want to brew it.  

Thanks Bill!

No affiliation; Nothing to be gained; I disclaim everything; 
Don't believe or agree with me if you don't want to; blah blah blah

 -Matth



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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:24:17 -0400
From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net (Kenneth B Johnsen <NADB>)
Subject: Re: Italian Made SS 304 Kettles?

J<italic>LNail at aol.com wrote

Saw an add for the Italian made stainless brew kettles with spigot at a
pretty

good price. Question: What is the difference between 18-8 gauge and 304
gauge?

</italic>

18-8 and 304 describe the composition of the stainless steel, not the
guage. The Italian kettles we've seen are fairly thin. More inportantly
the bottom is the same thickness as the sides. Since stainless doesn't
cary heat well, the bottom should be thicker, espescially in the the
center, than the sides. I beleieve they are more commononly used for wine
fermentation. Keep in mind the kettles you're considering may be
different than those that I've seen.

Bob

Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:02:57 -0400
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: Oatmeal Stout

Mike Hanson Asks:
> Does anyone out there know of or know where I can find an extract-based
> recipe that comes out tasting something like Samuel Smith's oatmeal stout?

We once made a nice oatmeal stout from extract by using a partial mash.
It was about 4 Qt, and used a (I lost my notes for this batch!!) pound
or so of 6-row and oatmeal(about 60/4%) heat up oats to mash in, add
water to thin & cool to 122 F.  Add malt and mash for ~ 1.5 hr(did in
oven).  Mash out, cool, strain and add to extract/water/hops and boil. 

I must add that when we did it, my cronies bought _QUICK_ oats, and
straining was a painful process!
The beer was great, tho'.

I would have your friend try some straight extract batches before
tackling this one, IMHO. Perhaps a nice traditional Porter or two.

Cheers,
Rod Schaffter


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:34:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: culturing over flame

Jon Bovard asked about culturing yeast over flame...

I wouldn't exactly use the term antiseptic "curtain" unless your talking
about a VERY small curtain (or a large flame!). It does make sense however
that the air which has just entered the flame from below and to the side
is probably sterilized and therefore the small airspace above the flame
represents a reasonably sterile environment. Also, the idea of the upward
convection keeping nasty things from floating down into your culture, as
has been previously mentioned, seems reasonable. 

When culturing bacteria or yeast in the lab we do use a bunsen burner -
first, to heat sterilize our transfer loops (small loops of platinium
wire) and second to spot sterilize the openings and lips of glassware such
as test tubes, culture vials, flasks, etc. Interestingly, the goal of this
procedure is not to sterilize by heating the surface up but merely to run
the opening through the reducing portion of the flame. This is apparently
sufficient to prevent most contamination problems and in fact these are
thankfully quite rare. 

The story is told(apocryphal?) that Pasteur had his students "flame" their 
hands before doing culture work at the bench! 

Cheers!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:42:41 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Caramel malt/Phil Seitz/outdoors/chiller/wits

Re: caramel malt fermentability.  I always thought it led to higher 
FGs, especially as the color of the malt increases.  I try to 
minimize the percentage of caramel malts in most beers that I want to 
be highly attenuated.  YMMV.

Re: Phil Seitz and Belgium.  Phil is now back in the USA, in good ol 
Philly where he can stock up on all kinds of Belgian Ales at Monks 
and Victory beers too!  He's even engaged now.  If you would like to 
contact Phil, email me and I will forward your note to Phil.  Im sure 
he would be very happy to hear that one of his recipes produced a BOS 
ribbon!

Re: brewing outdoors and "bugs/etc".  Certainly something to be aware 
of.  I have a chiller line that takes wort from my brewhouse to the 
fermenter in the basement, keep the end sealed up after use of all 
kinds of bugs will crawl in.  BTW, to the person who wants a SS plate 
exchanger to chill 32-35 gals of wort, a simple 1/2" soft copper 
fridge line inside of 3/4" garden hose works fine for me.  50' of 
copper will chill 32 gals in about 30 mins with my tap water.  Plate 
chillers are nice too but will cost plenty and need to be flushed 
with caustics.

Re: Wit acidity.  Ive measured Celis White to be about 4.1 while most 
"regular" beers are in the 4.3-4.5 range as measured off the tap.  
Compare with lambics in the 3's and remember that pH is a log 
function.

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:38:12 -0600
From: "Martin & Christine" <mcl at fone.net>
Subject: Priming for better head

Lately we have had a few batches that have had very little head to them
> after opening the bottles.  We have been using corn sugar instead of
sugar
> for priming the bottles.  What seems to cause the low out-come of fizz on
> our heads.  Is it that we don't use enough corn sugar?  Or should we go
> back to the regular sugar?  Or is the time that we keep our brew in the
> bottles?  We usually are putting about a tablespoon of the sugar to that
of
> a bottle.  Is there some way of measuring this to proper priming?  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin & Christine
> Happy Brew Couple


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:47:38 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at DeluxeData.com
Subject: ISO Glass airlock

Does anyone know where I can get glass airlocks, I've been using those
plastic triple bubble ones for quite a while but would like some glass ones
so I can boil them with the rest of my yeast starter equipment.

TIA
Bill Rehm
Riverwest, Milwaukee, WI




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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:50:32 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Torrified wheat / gram scale

Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com> wrote that he brewed a variation of
my ginger wit http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_85.html (great summer beer
 - NB Tom Puskar who wanted a clone of Sam Adams Summer Beer).

First,  little bit about this brew may be of interest.  I first brewed it
in 1995 to be a summer quencher for beer and non-beer drinkers.  I
substituted fresh ginger for the more traditional dried curacao and other
orange peels because I disliked the occasional "lunchmeat" flavor that
sometimes seems to develop with these.  The ginger also provides a bit of
the bite that lactic acid does in traditional wit.  It worked famously and
scored in low 40's in Michigan State Fair.  I entered it in the first Long
Shot home brew contest and it scored in the upper 30's and passed through 4
judges!  Obviously, someone was taking a close look at it, but it didn't
end up a winner.  Then, Sam Adams, the sponsor of Long Shot, came out the
following summer with their summer ale with Grains of Paradise featured!
Coincidence?

Anyway, Doug wrote he was obliged to substitute torrified wheat for the
soft, white winter wheat I used.  He said that this was

>visually identical to the malted wheat that Jeff was selling (I don't
>recall the maltster).

Jeff musta been the name of the shopkeeper, I guess.  I wasn't there.  ;-)
The Canadian torrified wheat is made from soft white winter wheat.  Some
premium malted wheat is indeed made from soft white winter wheat.  It's
specified in product discriptions.  Soft wheat typically has lower levels
of protein than hard wheat and white wheat has lower phenol and tannin
content than red.  If you can't get soft white winter wheat, which is what
they use in Belgium, then soft red or even hard red winter wheat will work.
The latter is what Celis uses in Texas since it is grown there.

>Could someone please tell me what torrified wheat
>is and the pros and cons of using it?

Torrified wheat is indeed roasted in a way that it does indeed puff a
little, as Doug suggested, but very little.  This gelatinizes the starches
(which happens at mash temps anyway, which is why you don't need to
pregelatinize wheat by cooking it).  I use it <10% in British ales to give
head retention and a toasty note.  Don't know if it really works, but some
good bitters are brewed with it, so I use it.  I've never used it in a wit
or at high levels.

>	Jeff's recipe called for 5 g. freshly ground cardamom (among other
>things). I was probably lucky to get +/- 50% accuracy weighing the
>cardamom with my 18 oz. mechanical diet scale.

My notes say that I used 3 g. freshly ground cardamom and 5 g. of freshly
ground Grains of Paradise, but I see that I reversed these in the recipe in
Cat's Meow.  They are grace notes of flavor, so I don't think it's a big
matter.  Anyway, 1 tsp of unground cardomom seeds or grains of paradise (a
related spice botanically) weighs about 3 g.  I used 1 and 1-1/2 tsp
respectively and weighed them, then ground them in a mortar and pestle.

I hope other brewers will try this great summer beer.  Originally I gave it
a 30 minute protein rest at 122F, but I think this may have cost head
retention, so I'd suggest a shorter rest.  Actually, I mash in at 104F and
then raise to 140F over 20 minutes, passing through protein degradation
temperatures.  I don't get the huge, dumpling-like hot break now, though.
It's also a little fuller in body, which may be good or bad.  I just
bottled the '98 edition Saturday.  It takes no time to mature since it's
traditionally a slightly cloudy beer, so there's still time to brew it and
be drinking it this summer.

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:01:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Use of slaked lime to precipitate bicarbonate

I have read in various places that bicarbonate (aka "temporary
hardness") can be removed from water by either boiling or by using
slaked lime.

My local water has a fair amount of this stuff in it, but generally
not enough that I'm usually concerned about it (even a small amount of
darker malts, including crystal malts, acidify things enough that it
takes a reasonably small amount of gypsum or calcium chloride to get
my mash pH to where I want it). However, when brewing extremely pale
beers, I can have trouble hitting the right pH without adding what I
feel are excessive salts.

Generally, I'm too lazy to boil up 7-10 gallons of water the night
before I brew (my current brew day is long enough the way it is
without adding time for boiling water), so I was wondering about the
use of slaked lime to get the bicarbonate out of my water. Since I
have not been able to find any details on its use and its suitability
for human consumption, I figured I'd see if anyone out there has
experience or insight.

Thanks.

 -Steve in Indianapolis
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:00:47 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Split Boil/Sanitation/Vegas

I have an idea to make two beers at the same time but at different IBU
levels. I, like so many of us here, have to brew a batch every now and then
that is less bitter I like in order to keep my wife quenched. Now, she
likes a good pale ale so long as it's not too bitter. I had the following
idea the other day while brewing a big IPA ("I thought you were gonna make
a fruit beer for me next...").

Say I make 12 gallons of 1050 beer. I boil this for 10 mins before adding
any hops, add 150 gms of 5% AAU EKG for 30 mins, 60 gms for 15 mins and 60
gms  at  0 mins. This short boil will yield about 20 IBUS. 

I would drain 1/2 of the contents thru a CF chiller to a fermenter and
restart the boil. After bringing this back to a boil, I would let it go for
30 mins more and add 30 gms more hops  at  15 and 0 mins. This would be like a
6 gallon batch with 75 gms EKG  at  60 mins, 30 gms  at  45 mins, 30 gms  at  30
mins, 30 gms  at  15 mins, and 30 gms  at  0 mins ~ very well hopped  at  about 55
IBUS. The only difference between this and my normal hopping schedule is
that I don't usually add hops  at  45 mins.

This in effect would yield two beers with almost identical OG (boil-off
should increase the OG) but different hopping rates and would make both
myself and my wife happy. It should add only 1/2 hour to your process.

Any one see any holes in this idea? You'd probably want to use hops with
good aroma throughout to avoid harshness in the first beer since they are
only boiled for 30 mins.

- ---

Some comments have been made lately about lax sanitation and the problems
that didn't come with it. I'm sure you can make good beer by skipping some
sanitation here and there, but I just want to point out that on a BJCP
score sheet, a score of 29 is a good beer. I feel that if you want to make
very good to excellent beer, your sanitation has to be top notch. I am no
longer satisfied with scores of 29, and therefore won't be skipping bottle
washing or mixing in priming sugar with my arm.

- ---

Going to be in Los Vegas from 7/10-14 (this weekend) for a trade show
(NACUBO) and need the skinny on the beer scene. I don't want to get stuck
drinking lemon infused Corona.


John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:20:15 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Re: "culuturing" over flame -clarification of previous post


Jon Bovard writes"

>Supposedly the presence of a naked flame or heat source eg. Bunsen
>burner or 4 ring burner etc, creates an aseptic curtain.

>Is this true or to what degree is it a myth?

Micro-organisms don't just float around in the air but are typically
attached to dust particles.  The purpose of the flame is to create a 
convection area.  That is, the air near the flame goes up.  If you work
near the flame, say within 6 inches (15 cm), dust laden bacteria won't 
fall into your open cutlures.

- --Tony V.


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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:25:07 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Fining in the kettle with Irish moss


Dave Humes writes:

>The last time I used Irish moss in the kettle I swore I'd never use
>it again.  Now I remember why......

It's amazing how 2 people can have such a difference of opinion.  The few
times I did not use IM in the kettle, I have regretted it.


- --Tony V.


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:44:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Fining in the kettle with Irish moss

| Greetings,
|  
| The last time I used Irish moss in the kettle I swore I'd never use
| it again.  Now I remember why.  I made an America Pale Ale this
| weekend and used 4 tsp of Irish moss in an 11 gallon batch.

That is probably too much.  I use 1.5 tsp for a five gallon batch.  But
I'm not sure what using "too much" does besides wasting some of your
Irish moss.

| I thought this was a fairly modest amount.  What's happened is that I
| have this colloidal suspension hanging in the middle of my
| fermenters.  Now you might say that's normal and it will drop out. 

It's normal and it will drop to the bottom by the time your beer is
finished.  I've almost always used Irish moss and this is always what
happens for me.  The time that I forgot, the beer took longer to clear
and had a chill haze at first.  (After leaving the keg in the refrigerator
for several weeks, though, the haze dropped out.)

| But this suspension formed in less than an hour after pitching the
| yeast and oxygenating.   Actually, I suspect that if formed during the
| cold break in the CF chiller and then just flocked in the fermenters
| to the point where it became a well defined, suspended mass?.

These are all good things!  You want the trub to collect into the mass.
It doesn't dissolve--it will not reabsorb into your beer.  This is the
whole point of the "cold break".  People use CF chillers because it gives
them a better break; same argument for using Irish moss, in my opinion.

| There was no CO2 release going on at that point to suspend the cloud. 

I used to wait for a few hours for this trub to settle *before* pitching
the yeast.  It always dropped to the bottom (though the time to do this
varied).  I used to rack off of the mass before pitching the yeast.  But
now, I just leave it in for the fermentation.  (It saves me an extra
headache--I doesn't appear to reabsorb, so why bother.)

| Around the cloud, the beer is very clear, even now during high
| kraeusen.

That is something to celebrate!

| The last time I used Irish moss this stuff just did not want to drop out.

Hmmm...I've never had that problem.

| I have much better temperature control now and
| might be able to drop it out by crash cooling.  Is this expected
| behaviour with Irish moss?  Am I adding too much?  Is it worth the
| bother?

Taste / see the difference (in the finished product)
and decide for yourself!

That is the axiom to apply to anybody's advice on this list.

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:53:26 -0400
From: Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Yeast Starters (Again!)

      In keeping with my life's ambition of removing as much 
      effort as possible from brewing, and also in keeping with 
      the recent complaints regarding the overly-complex nature 
      of the HBD, I am resurrecting a point made back in HBD 
      2720 and 2721, in response to yeast starters.
      
      Jay Spies had asked about the quantity of DME to mix with 
      water to make a good starter for yeast.  I had responded 
      (in #2720) 
      
      >  my general rule of thumb is to use 1 TABLESPOON of
      >  DME for every 100 ml water. (or 10 Tablespoons per
      >  liter)
      
      Pat Babcock (in #2721) responded that:
      
      >  Using 1 gallon = 3785.4 ml and 1 lb = 453.59 grams, and
      >  assuming DME yields 45 pgp...  converting: 
      >  (45pts*gal/lb)*(3785.4ml/gal)/(lb*453.59g/lb). 
      >  Canceling units, we have
      >  45pts*3785.4ml/453.59g=375.5pm/g
      
      >  Let's say you want 800ml of 1.030 starter from DME. 
      >  How many grams of DME do you need? 
      >  30pts*800ml=453.59pts*ml/g. Solving for the
      >  mass, collecting units and rounding up yields 53 grams
      >  of DME.
      
      Well, that's a little to much arithmetic for me to endure, 
      especially since I typically build my starters up from 
      slants in 3 steps, 100 ml - 500 ml - 2 L.
      
      So, I subjected my {1 Tbsp / 100 ml} rule of thumb to the 
      arithmetic.
      
      Assuming that the specific gravity of DME is 0.68 (that's 
      680 mg/L or 42.4 lb/ft3), and working through the 
      calculations provided by Pat Babcock, you end up with:
      
      1 Tbsp DME = 15 ml = 10.2 g
      
      and
      
      10.2 g DME in 100 ml water gives 38 points
      
      or
      
      1 Tbsp DME in 100 ml water makes a 1.038 starter.
      
      When I make up the bigger starters, I just remember that 
      there are 4 Tablespoons in a 1/4 cup, or 16 Tablespoons in 
      a full cup.  So a 2 L starter would use 20 Tbsp, or 1 1/4 
      cups.
      
      Marc Arseneau


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:11:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Oatmeal recipes, yeast vs bacteria, sanitation, fridge, unwelcomed goats

> From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
> Subject: Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout
> 
> Hello fellow homebrewers,
> 
> Does anyone out there know of or know where I can find an extract-based
> recipe that comes out tasting something like Samuel Smith's oatmeal stout?

Well, there are 13 extract recipes for oatmeal stout in Cat's Meow at the
Brewery (http://www.brewery.org) -- as many as there are for all-grain and
partial mash combined.  None of them specifically mention Samuel Smith's,
but many include a description of the beer that resulted from the recipe.
(Typically dark, smooth, and creamy, with the oats providing mouthfeel but
little flavor.  Is that what you want?)

I might trust a partial mash recipe better, otherwise you can get starch
from the oats into your beer.  This can create haze (no biggie in a dark
stout) and can feed infections (some bacteria can eat starch).  If you're
going to drink it soon after making it, you're very likely to have no
problem with gushers or bombs.  If you're planning to age it for a few
months, you might want to use a partial mash to convert the oats.

There's also oat or oatmeal extract.  One of the recipes uses 6# of
"William's Oatmeal Dark Extract," there may be others.

Email me if you don't have web access, I'll email you the Cat's Meow
recipes.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: mark.mallett at bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Starter size, yeast anti-microbial properties
> 
> Most brewing books say starters should be of large enough volume
> [because] A short lag time reduces the chance of infection.
> [This] seems to lead to yeast having anti-microbial properties,
> is this so.

Not the yeast themselves, but the alcohol they produce.  I think they
jigger the pH also.  Yeast rapidly make their environment toxic to
bacteria, so they can feast undisturbed.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
> Subject: Re: Trub (the part on Sanitation though)
> 
> Vern writes:
 ...
> I went fishing in the wort with my arm
> almost up to my shoulder.

Gee, my arm goes entirely up to my shoulder -- oh, wait, never mind.

> [when bottling] I skipped the chlorine soak and
> simply rinsed with our excellent local tap water, no infected bottles
> after 200 tries.  Perhaps I'm just lucky or maybe we worry a little too
> much about killing every last bug."
> 
> I have often been suspect of this as well, thinking that our forefathers
> probably didn't have One-step and Iodophore, and I am sure they must have
> made some pretty good beers.

True.  On the other hand, some of them were excellent lambic-style beers,
and others weren't so hot but didn't go to waste if Our Forefathers could
drink them at all.

Lax sanitation is a dance with probability.  Every skipped step creates a
risk of infection.  How big that risk is depends on your environment, your
other procedures, your materials, and so on.  If your total risk of
infection is 5% per batch, you have an even chance of making 13 batches
with never an infection.  At 1% per batch, you have an even chance of
making 68 batches without an infection.  At 0.5% risk, 138 batches.

You have to decide how important to you (or not) a lost batch is, how
likely it is in your set-up, and how much work you're willing to do to
prevent it.

Also, some infections can create a minor off flavor -- for instance, an
infection that lives briefly, then is killed by alcohol as the yeast
fermentation kicks in.  This may not matter to you or me, but it would to
someone trying to win Best of Show in a major competition.  For instance,
Al K has said that he has to filter his aeration air (or use bottled O2)
in the summer, because his environment has a resident that creates a mild
clove flavor.

You have to decide how important minor off flavors are, how likely they
are, and how much work you're willing to do to prevent them.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: AllDey at aol.com
> Subject: Fridge, Basements & Propane
> 
> Oh Forrest and others,

"other" being my usual category...

> My whirlpool estate series fridge is running lots more than it should
 ...
> The sensor is sitting inside in a glass
> of veg oil.

I assume you've been told to do that -- but why?  And wouldn't that make it
slower to respond to temperature changes?  Slower to turn on, then slower
to turn off.  Is this something one does with an external controller?

> I once had a fridge guy ... tell me it probably
> needed re-charging.

That would certainly keep it running.  If it's low on gas (freon?) it won't
cool effectively, and it will keep trying.

> Please don't welcome me Sam...I've been lurking forever and feel plenty
> welcome.

The point, of course, was to point out the number of new people posting,
and to encourage lurkers to post by publicly welcoming a few new posters.

But it's too late to not welcome you.  Since Kyle asked about being left
out, I welcomed prior posters.  Since you posted several times in 1997 and
1998, you've been welcomed already.  But I can retract it if you really
want me to.  Boy, you phony lurkers really get my goat.  Here, billy billy
billy -- I've got to get my goat back so I can eat some red meat.

No wasted band width here either.  But if I see another post about eating
goats, I'll cancel this one.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:25:46 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at top.net>
Subject: Pumpkin and Steam

To All,

I know it's a bit early to be thinking about a pumpkin ale, but since it always 
seems to take 3 months before the spices mellow, this time I want it ready by 
Thanksgiving!  The question is:  Does the pumpkin contribute anything other 
than mouthfeel?  And if that's all it does, could it be replaced with something 
easier to work with, like oatmeal?

On the steam note:

As I haven't blown myself by switching from an electric burner to propane,  
something must be done, so I'm looking at (low pressure) steam injection 
system for mashing.  Can the tubing that runs into the mash be left open on 
the end, or should it be crimped and holes drilled along the sides.  Crimping 
and drilling would seem to help maintain pressure and keep the mash from 
backfilling the steam line, but is it that much of a concern?  

TIA
John Watts
watts at top.net
John Watts
watts at top.net


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:25:01 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Gram scales

Doug Moyer asked about inexpensive accurate gram scales. I have been
using a small Polder kitchen scale for years, always assuming that it
was pretty inaccurate - especially at low weights like 5g. A while back
I bought a set of brass weights at a flea market and used them to check
the accuracy of my Polder. It was right on the money. 5g of weight
produced a 5g reading. 28g (I actually measured out 28g 350mg) produced
a one ounce reading. I was pretty impressed (although I'm still looking
for a balance scale to take advantage of those cool weights.)

Dave in Seattle


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:30:09 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Wing Cappers/Rubber Bottoms/Oud Bruin/Webmasters

Back when I first started brewing my partner & I would break on
average two bottles per batch using the standard two handle
capper.  Eventually it dawned on us (15 years of engineering school 
between us at the time) that we were putting quite a bit of
downward force on the handles and compressing the heck out of
the bottle necks.

Since then I have concentrated on only applying enough force to
crimp the caps and I actually lift the bottle off of the floor a bit (by
the ends of the handles) as I bring the handles to the end of their
stroke.  Haven't broken a bottle since.
*********************************************************

I have a 13 gallon rubber coated SS keg also.  I tried for about 5
minutes to cut the rubber coating off but promptly gave up.  Now
I have a road-worthy, super-stable, light-impervious, idiot-proof 13
gallon carboy.  Highest and best use for these, IMO.
*********************************************************

Al K thinks perhaps Phil Seitz' Belgian recipes are available at the
Brewery site.  They are, try:
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/mashtun/belg.html#bruin
**********************************************************

Doug Moyer uses UNIX, NT, and a bunch of other stuff that
impresses the heck out of me, then draws a blank on how to put
his recipes on his website. 

My apologies if this question is about techno/programming
issues that went over my head.

I use Notepad.exe for my web editing (I started with the Geocites
editor, and dabble in Netscape Composer, but Notepad is easier,
really).  Remember, it's the content that matters, not the cute
boxes and frames.  Chances are you already have the recipes
in some sort of electronic format, just take it from there.  KISS.

BTW, when I come across a webpage feature I really like, I use
Netscape's <View>, <Page Source> command to get a look at
the source code and see how it was done.  Makes my job a lot
easier, and doesn't require me to know nearly as much.


Cheers,
Randy in Modesto
Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers
http://www.jps.net/randye/



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Date: 7 Jul 1998 09:37:54 U
From: "Kaczorowski, Scott" <kaczorowski#m#_scott at apt.mdc.com>
Subject: Re:  Limes in Corona (sorry)


I know this isn't homebrew-related, but Al K. started it  ;-)

> There are a great many unpaved roads in Mexico and when you
> order a beer in a rural bar, sometimes you get a bottle and
> sometimes you get a can.  You rarely get a glass.  If you get a
> bottle, no problem.  If you get a can, it's very likely to have a
> layer of dirt on top.  To avoid drinking this dirt, the locals have
> made a habit of cleaning the dirt off the can with the closest
> thing available: a slice of lime,

I've been to Baja, many villages in the deepest, darkest Yucatan,
etc.  Places where they don't even speak Spanish.
Hospitality in Mexico in general is phenomenal, but in a "rural"
setting, it can be downright embarassing!  Serve you a beer
with dirt on the top?  Never heard of, never seen such a thing.

Also, think about it for a second:  Lime + dirt == mud.  Not
much accomplished.

In my not-so-limited experience, Tecate seems to be the beer
of choice among Mexicans (along with copious amounts of lime
juice and salt).  The lime is squeezed onto the top of the can,
and *then* discarded.  Tecate is actually pretty good this way...

I've heard many stories regarding the use of limes in Corona.
Most likely it stems from the practice of including a small
bowl of sliced limes ("limon", actually - a lemon/lime hybrid)
on tables in restaurants.  This is simply a condiment used for
seasoning whatever you want.  Some people just eat them.
Take a swag of beer, suck on a lime.  With some beers on some
days, a good slug of lime juice in your cerveza just plain ol'
WORKS.  I'm sure the practice predates Corona, and I'm also sure
it has to do with flavor rather than scaring flies away, etc.

> A related story (which is more likely to be true) is that the
> brewer of Corona had to hire a bunch of workers to *manually*
> remove limes from bottles with coathangers because their
> bottling line was unable to remove the limes from the
> returnable bottles.

Possible, sure, but I doubt it.  No flame intended, Al, but Mexico
is not some stinking, backwards craphole unfamiliar with the
concept of a high pressure jet of water.  Some parts are not so
nice, sure, but that's not much different than the US.

Related to that, though, many times in Mexico I've seen a little
dot silkscreened on the neck of bottles (Corona, Negra Leon,
Victoria, etc.)  This looks for all the world to me like a fill
mark and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some bottling lines
(including the removal of limes) are more manual than others.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at deltanet.com



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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:59:22 -0400 
From: "Moyer, Douglas E (MIS, SalemVA)"
Subject: RE: Wing Cappers/Rubber Bottoms/Oud Bruin/Webmasters

Randy in Modesto said: 

"My apologies if this question is about techno/programming issues that went
over my head." 

	It looks like it did. Apparently I wasn't sufficiently clear to
correctly convey my question. I am looking to organize my recipes in a
database format to allow viewers to do "cool" things like ingredient
searches, scaling, IBU calculations, etc. (Which I didn't clearly mentioned
in the post.) I certainly have no problem with basic html, or even frames
and such. I often do like Randy said, and when I see a page that I like,
copy the source code. (I have no reference material--I am almost purely cut
& paste. ;-) The problem with just putting the recipes into html is that
there is a higher amount of maintenance involved to maintain uniformity and
consistency. (I.e., every structural change has to be done to all recipe
pages, etc.) I was also looking for interactivity, as mentioned above.
Basically, I just wanted to take it one step further. 
	In the four web sites that I have made (including an intranet for
GE), I have always eschewed the cute in favor of the functional. In that
line, dynamic (programmable) interfaces are usually the fastest way to get
the user the information he/she wants. I.e., users don't want to spend
minutes downloading the entire list of recipes if they are only interested
in stouts. Keep the graphics to a minimum, and reuse them, as the user's
browser will keep the recent graphics in memory, and will not need to reload
them. (Some people have noted how cheap bandwidth is now, but I am
accustomed to making web pages for those with poor connectivity, like our
job sites in Indonesia or rural Korea, etc.)
	Sorry to go so far off the normal topic, but I still would like an
answer or two. Thanks!

BTW, I do all of my html programming in Notepad as well. 

Brew on!
Doug Moyer (Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com)
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity/
Pictures of my baby: http://www.rev.net/~kmoyer/
 
(Doing pretty good with the parenthetical comments myself)


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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:05:11 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bdevine at 10fold.com>
Subject: Re: Limes in Corona

Al Korzonas wrote:
> I've heard this story regarding the origin of the lime in Mexican beers.
> If you get a can, it's very likely to have a layer of dirt on top.  To
> avoid drinking this dirt, the locals have made a habit of cleaning the
> dirt off the can with the closest thing available: a slice of lime [...]

A different story that I heard from a person born in Mexico was
that in the early days of beer cans, the cheaper beers were put
in cans that did not have a food-grade lining.  As a result, if
the beer sat in the can for a while, the beer picked up a metallic
taste.  So an easy way to mask the off-flavor was to squeeze some
lime juice into it.

Nowadays the typical beer can is either an aluminum can or a lined
steel can.  But lime in beer seems to me to be a perfectly acceptable
way to kick the beer up a notch (as Emeril Lagasse says) just as
lemon is used in German kristal weizens.

Bob Devine


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:36:24 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: freshest hops?

O.K. I'm getting ready to brew that great IPA, I open my nitrogen
purged 02 barrier bag of whole flower cascade that I bought after
hearing raves about this supplier, I stick my nose in for that
big cascade aroma but... it's not there. I open my little plastic
bag of cascade pellets bought from the local homebrew shop 6
months ago... now that's aroma.
What should I do? Is the great aroma hiding in those whole hops?
Should I use them or the pellets?
Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA


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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:40:10 -0400
From: Dan McLaughlin & Christine Griffith <danchris.mcl at erols.com>
Subject: Cordials

Just a quick thanks to all you responded to my inquiry about cordials
both here and email. Mucho Appreciado! 
Dan


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Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:30:37 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: extract brix ratings

good point about the brix rating. I think the muntons are around 80, anybody
know about alexanders. I can't find a web page for them. (official company
name is california concentrate co.) while we are on the subject how would you
calculate brix ratings into a probable target gravity    thanks


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---