---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: Back From Lost Wages ("John Lifer, jr")
  Poland Spring Jugs ("Stuart Baunoch")
  Heat exchanger ("Phil Barker")
  Roasted Barley ("Dr. Pivo")
  GREAT LISTSERVE (Brandon Brown)
  re Protein rests - ("Steve Alexander")
  Munich/Maillard/Protein rests ("Steve Alexander")
  The end of the HBD as we know it. ("Steve Alexander")
  Historical Accuracy ("Crossno, Glyn")
  Virtual HomeBrew Clubs (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  re: adding make-up water ("Curt Speaker")
  Ames/Mid Iowa Visit ("Dave Russell")
  Durst friablilty/Sticke Glass/... ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Kolsch/Fermentap (B.R. Rolya)
  Whirlpooling ("George De Piro")
  Fest (Jack Phillips)
  fruit fly in the starter (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Steering Committee (Some Guy)
  Whirlpool Stuff (Jack Schmidling)
  re: Lead Poisoning ("Michel J. Brown")
  Re: Is my beer going to kill me? ("Michel J. Brown")
  Local Brewers ("Stuart Baunoch")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 06:18:29 -0500
From: "John Lifer, jr" <jliferjr at misnet.com>
Subject: RE: Back From Lost Wages

Pat, Do you do that too?  I hate to be treated like **** when it is MY
MONEY that I'm handing out.  But, I had quite a different experience
last week in New Jersey.  In southern NJ, near Lakewood there is a Fine
Italian Restaurant with a brewpub inside! Hot dog! Excellent beer, tried
them all except the Wheat and XXX light.  Stout, Porter, Pale and Red
ales were all very good, no yeast twang as they do filter the stuff.
Incidently, you won't find any Budswiller in this house!  Nothing except
what they make!  Excellent idea and the first BP I've been in that is
that proud of their beer.  BTW, the Assistant brewer gave an excellent
tour and was quite nice to answer all of our questions.  Basil T's is
the name of the place.  Good enough for two consecutive nights.  Good
food too!
John

- --
Cornelius Ball Lock Kegs for Sale
See Web page for details.
http://www2.misnet.com/~jliferjr/Kegs/Default.htm




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:51:15 -0400
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: Poland Spring Jugs

Would Poland Spring Water 6 Gallon Jugs be OK to use for fermentation vs.
Glass Charboys....????
I can obtain a couple of these at no cost.......
Only worries would be sanitation...

Stuart Baunoch
sbaunoch at homeruns.com
Inventory Control Specialist
Hannafords Homeruns




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:23:04 -0500
From: "Phil Barker" <pbarker at earthlink.net>
Subject: Heat exchanger

I've been reading a lot of articles on different methods for mash temp
adjustment using pumps and heat exchangers.
I made one myself a few months ago, and it works GREAT.
I thought I would share what I have done.

I use two polarware brewpots with thermometers and ballvalves with one King
cooker burner, a recirculation pump and a ten foot immersion chiller
(heater).
The system is set up as follows:
False bottom and enough water to cover in the mash tun
Sparge water and heating coil in other pot on top of burner
I prime the pump to circulate the water in the mash tun through the coil in
the sparge water back to the mash tun, using a drilled copper coil  to
disperse the water.
When the temp in the sparge water container is at mash in value , I use
water from the sparge container (through the valve) to mash in the grains as
they are added to the preheated/primed mash tun.
At this point all I have to do is to watch the mash recurculate through the
mash tun false bottom through the pump, through the sparge water pot with
the heat exchanger back into the mash tun.
(I keep the return water ring below the surface of the grains and liquid
during this process, stirring occasionally)
I keep the pump running constantly also.
When I want to adjust the mash temp, I turn up the heat under the sparge pot
until I reach my new mash temp.
When mash is complete, I connect the pump to the outlet of the sparge pot
and to my sparge are and begin sparging.
What I have achieved here is that I use the same water that I had in the
sparge pot for heating the mash to now sparge the mash.
Its a large volume of water, but temp adjust is better buffered from
fluctuation and I've heated only one volume of water, and it's ready when I
am. As a mater of fact the temp increase to mash out brings the sparge water
to correct temp.
I know I probable made it sound more complicated than it is.
It works well, and helps me make GREAT tasting, clear beer.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Phil Barker
pbarker at  say no to spam earthlink.net




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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:48:12 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Roasted Barley

I am looking for any information on the production of "roasted barley"
(as in: stout component). Temps, times, techniques. I asked this on RCB
and drew a blank.

Links would be great.  Personal experiences would be greater.

Published here would be fine. Direct email would be finer.

I've got the barn floor about 10 cm. deep in what looks like a barley
runway, and I'm kind of anxious to start playing with it.

Raking it barefoot is OK. Drinking fresh stout is OKer.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:00:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brandon Brown <brandonbrown at yahoo.com>
Subject: GREAT LISTSERVE

I really, really appreciated all of the comments on my first posting
about GABF.  Everyone here was very helpful and directed me to some
local spots (local meaning Chicago) for Homebrew type festivals.

Being a computer propeller-head, I've always done newsgroups and list
serves on a technical nature for my job.  This list is very enjoyable
(and informative!).

Keep up the good work and hopefully I'll be able to help someone out
in the future and return the favor!

Brew Great and Brew Strong young warriors,

Brandon




==
Brandon Brown                                 (773)251-5353
Director of Development                   Fax:(773)442-0131
Protech Solutions Inc.                bbrown at protechinc.net


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:04:22 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re Protein rests - 

Charles Rich writes re George DePiros comments ...

>Here's a datapoint from a recent brew gone bad, that I think supports
>Kunze.

>I determined this after about 80 minutes at 138F; I'd intended 151F
>but wasn't getting evidence of sugar conversion, no rainbows on the
>bubbles, no transparency etc.

Frankly if you're not getting a *LOT* of sugar developing 80' at 58.8C you've
got a serious mashing problem.  Try using your tongue next time - every
serious brewer should keep one handy just for such a contingency.  Rainbows
on the bubbles - ahhh recreational drugs of the '70s - I'm not sure why you
would associate this with sugar rather than oils or laminar b-glucans.

[Please insert some virtual smileys in the above - I know Charles to be a
bright and serious brewer]

>That beer, a CAP, had nil hot break (and consequently showed
>astringency), had little or negligible cold break, and was tenaciously
>very hazy.

The lack of break might mean a loss of coagulable protein and there are a
lot of reasons for this.  Small pH changes can make a big impact too for
example.  But astringency is due to oxidized polyphenols - ready to bind
with the proper sort of proteins - like those on your tongue (damn useful
tool that).  The question is  - why didn't your phenols bind to the proteins
? Once this happens, whether they drop out or not, the astringency is
dramatically reduced.  Add a little milk to your stale tea and see what I
mean (that tongue thing again).

>Polyclar helped pull some of haze and astringency, but it
>was still unshowable IMO.  The long rest at 138F is just at the end of
>the temperature range where proteolytic enzymes would be expected to
>degrade high molecular weight proteins.  Funny enough, the beer has a
>lot of body but a poor foam stand.

Polyclar is sort of an artificial protein which will bind to the oxidized
polyphenols and not really to proteins or existing haze. It reduces existing
haze more by accident than anything else.  It is most useful for removing
tannoid haze *precursors* - not protein or existing haze.  [This argues
against using PVPP in very cold beer to reduce chill haze - but that's
another story.]

I guess I find this case to be very very unclear evidence of anything.
Kunze cites 45C-50C for primary protein degradation, you're at 58.8C -
almost 16F higher.  You have evidence of little protein loss through break
matter so the proteins are small or for other reasons not coagulating - yet
your wort is oddly astringent which means oxidized polyphenols without
proteins to bind to.

It could be that you for some reason you extracted a huge amount of
phenolics or did a good job of oxidizing them which overwhelmed the
available protein (and I mean oligopeptides really) binding sites.  The
combination remains as haze too small to coagulate in the boil or sediment
later and also free polyphenolics and unbindable proteins.  Why the excess
phenolics ?

Personally I start a lot of mashes at 58C and push them up to ~62C before
boosting to 70C.  I don't see this problem, but again I may only spend 20'
not 80' at 58C.

- --
Also ...

>My Polder digital Thermometer/Timer's probe went t*ts-up during
>the brew and read 13F below actual.

My first Polder died on it's first outing, the replacement lasted about a
week.  Cheap junk IMO.  Too bad - since conceptually it's such a nice
design.

Steve Alexander





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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:33:19 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Munich/Maillard/Protein rests

Steve Jackson writes ...

>Because of the action of amino acids in forming melanoidins, I
>understand that starting with high-protein barley for making Munich
>malt is generally beneficial. I don't fully understand how this
>affects the "end result" in terms of the protein content of the malt
>that is shipped to the consumer. The topic is something I certainly
>wouldn't mind learning more about.

Same here - I find the discussion on Kunze unsatisfying.  Only a very small
amount of amino acids are necessary to create all the Maillard products in
Munich malt.  I have doubts that boosting the protein level 10% would have a
more dramatic effect than reducing the water content bit or boosting the
temps a few degrees.  Still ...

>I'm assuming that enough of the protein is "consumed" during the
>process of making Munich malt that the protein content is either
>sufficiently reduced or converted to MMW and LMW proteins by the time
>the malt is in the consumer's hands that a protein rest is generally
>not necessary.

*MAYBE* 1% of available protein goes into the maillard products - it's in
the noise.  Other factors dictate the necessity of a protein rest.

Steve Alexander



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:27:33 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The end of the HBD as we know it.

Louis Bonham writes ...

>Subject: Clinitest Truce Declared
 ...
>I am please to announce that Dave Burley and Al Korzonas have agreed to a
truce
>in their often-animated HBD discussions on Clinitest.
 ...
>My price of admission for doing this, however, is that both Dave and Al
agree to
>cease posting on this subject in the HBD until the experiment is completed
and
>the results are released.  Further, each of them have given the HBD Janitor
the
>plenary authority to cancel posts from either of them that violate the
cease
>fire.
>
>The Steering Committee has been concerned that the level of acrimony
>accompanying this debate had reached counterproductive levels, but as we
have
>stated repeatedly we do not want to censor any beer-related posts and will
>resort to censorship as a very last resort.  In this case, our arrangement
will
>hopefully resolve the issue productively while returning the HBD to a
somewhat
>more relaxed (and collegial) tone.
>
>Louis K. Bonham
>kbonham at phoenix.net
>Member, HBD Steering Committee

No one is entirely happy with the form of the Clinitest discussion, but
frankly intelligent opinionated guys like Al and David are the only ones who
bother to push these issues to their conclusion. They are the only ones who
care enough to try to find or refute new methods and question the current
state of technology.  It shouldn't be a surprise that hashing out such
conflicts of fact may also result in some verbal conflict as well.  It's
part of the process and we all should count ourselves fortunate to have had
a ringside seat.  Well we did have.  What has happened is that we have all
now been excluded from observing and participating in this process.  All the
neo-mccarthyites that suggested this topic should be banned should feel real
proud right now that their complaints have resulted in the first serious
threat in my memory of *censorship* of a brewing topic on HBD. This is
unacceptable to me.

I'm very pleased that Al and David and Louis have decided to work toward an
experimental approach to resolving the technical questions, but there are
some things in the message above that I am not at all  pleased about.

A member of the Steering committee, Louis Bonham, announces a 'voluntary'
censorship of a technical topic on this forum until he has a chance to
produce an experimental result and publish an article under his own name in
BT.  Louis should of course not be allowed to participate in any censorship
determination or any policy issue in which he has a stake.  Conflict of
interest - it is entirely unethical by any measure.  Why else can't the
details of the experimental design be posted here besides personal interest
in conflict with that of the digest.

Two reasons are cited for the committees threat of censorship.

Acrimony:
As for the level of acrimony - a number of years ago there was a really
pesky disruptive poster named NOKOMAREE who posted nothing of constructive
value and even made an open threat against one of the HBD contributors.  I
was told at that time in a private email from the janitor that as long as it
wasn't commercial or a dup and was vaguely related to beer that it was
getting posted.  So I guess that threats of physical violence are
acceptable, but intense and vehement discussions of technical brewing issues
force the committee to threaten their "last resort" of censorship.  It seems
more like the first resort of those who would suppress open discussion.  As
for the "more collegial tone" language - different people have different
styles, where does this style issue get expressed in the censorship rules
for this forum ?

Counterproductivity or nonconstructivity:
If you wish to see some nonconstructive posts I suggest that you all go back
to the archives and review Louis' highly politically charged rants against
AHA.  He could have courteously censored himself, but instead he chooses to
threaten the censorship of technical brewing topics.  There were issues of
fact even in the most recent Clinitest posts.  The data was getting pretty
meager, but there are a lot of less informational threads going on here all
the time.

As for the steering committee - what are the steering committee's
responsibilities to a formal charter and capabilities with respect to the
sort of censorship indicated above ?  The webpage only cites a few reasons
for censorship - and spirited and lengthy discussion of a topic isn't among
them.  Has this policy been replaced ?  Who speaks for the steering
committee ?

Apparently things have devolved to the point where admittedly longwinded and
intense debate on the marginalia of brewing cannot be tolerated in this
forum.  Don't you all understand that even *offering* voluntary censorship
in exchange for some other good is a form of censorship ?  Louis as BT
columnist has every right to make the offer, but as HBD steering committee
member I think he is completely out of line.  In what way is the suppression
of the Clinitest discussion in the interest of the HBD while topics like
'beer in space' and 'botulism' have been allowed to run rampant ?

What Al and David and Louis decide to do privately is their business, tho'
I've asked to participate in the discussion.  This "'big brother' is
preventing you from having to page-down" aspect gives me a severe migraine
in the posterior.  Perhaps the header should just list the proscribed topics
then at least I could make an informed decision about my future
participation in this forum.

>For all of you who have wanted to see a cease-fire in the never-ending HBD
>Clinitest jihad, your wish is granted.

And for all of you who enjoy the prospect of censorship - your wish was just
granted too.  Maybe we need a jihad against a different 'C*' word.

May I suggest a clear policy statement by management hopefully with an
unconditional retraction of the censorship language in the post above and a
clear statement about conflict of interest of the committee members.  I know
Louis well enough to believe that his motives are honest, but the appearance
is of a serious abuse of HBD for personal benefit.

hope that was collegial enough to get past the censors,
Steve Alexander




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:42:42 -0500 
From: "Crossno, Glyn" <Glyn.Crossno at cubic.com>
Subject: Historical Accuracy

For the record:
	It was Clinitest infected with botulism which caused the
aluminum to dissolve in the wine which caused the Romans to contract
Alzheimer's and thus the fall.

Thanks Louis, Al and Dave.

Glyn Crossno
- ---------------
"Are you going to come quietly, or do I have to use earplugs?" 


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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:08:09 -0500
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Virtual HomeBrew Clubs

Hi all, 

I normally don't outwardly try to promote my sites but this time I actually
have something relevant to add to the subject.

About three years ago I started a HomeBrew chat (The first one on the web I
believe maybe not). Well I had this great idea that the chat would be
 100%
homebrew talk 100% of the time, the kind where a brewer in need could go
when they needed help quickly (like when the mash tun was melting or
something). 

What I got was a chat virtual HomeBrew online Pub. Kind of like the pub down
the street from you or I. The kind of place where everybody knows each other
and everybody looks out for each other. The one common factor of all the
people visiting the chat is that they are all Home Brewers of every level
and style. 

Last year sometime the regulars urged me to register the chat as a HomeBrew
Club with my great friends at the AHA and I went ahead and called Brian
Rezac who set me up.

Well anyway The BrewRats were born sometime in November of 1997 I think.
Meetings are held pretty much 24 hours a day 7 days a week. That is whenever
you have time to visit the chat.

The BrewRats homepage is here: http://skotrat.dynip.com/brewrats

The Brew Rat Chat lives here: http://skotrat.dynip.com/brc.html

Currently there are about 75-100 members in the BrewRats covering I believe
7-10 countries. We have brewers on the novice to the pro level and would
like to start holding regular brewing competitions amongst ourselves and
also make ourselves heard on the regular competition scene as a club.

I would like to thank all the brewers I have met in the chat for making me a
better brewer and for just being one hell of a great bunch of guys.

Now for the disclaimer:

If you are a pinheaded one-sided ego freak that can not deal with real
people being them selves. Or you think that the chat should be about exactly
what you want it to be about all the time. Or if you come in and act like
everybody in it is not talking about beer
 
Well then, the chat is not for you.

 If however, you want to meet a fantastic bunch of brewers, talk beer,
brewing, yeast, brewing equipment, welding, politics, computers, sciences,
chili peppers, food, sex, religion or just be the village idiot then you may
like the chat.

And remember: You wouldn't go into a pub you have never been in before and
start calling the patrons morons and telling them that they aren't doing
things right without getting your feather ruffled. If you come in with an
open mind and join in the conversation you will love it. 

Hmmm, enough poop

C'ya!

Scott "You might remember me from such films as 'CLINITEST, What the hell is
it good for?'" Abene
################################################################
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                        #
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>            #
# http://www.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)  #
#                                                              #
#                                                              #
# "The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"  #
################################################################


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:17:52 EST
From: "Curt Speaker" <speaker at safety-1.safety.psu.edu>
Subject: re: adding make-up water

Just a quick data point:

Someone recently mentioned that they thought they had infected their 
beer by adding some additional water to the primary fermenter after 
the wort was added.  Another poster mentioned that adding water per 
se should not cause an infection.  This is true...to a point.
The only batch (out of >100 )that I ever had to dump due to infection 
was contaminated in just that way.  The water is not the problem - 
the container that the water is placed in was the culprit.  I have a 
small 1-gallon poly pail that I use to collect runnings from my 
mash/lauter tun when I am not using my boil kettle to collect 
runnings (for recirculation purposes and the last 1-3 quarts).  I 
typically do not sanitize this pail since the wort will be boiled for 
60-90 minutes.  But after chilling my finished wort, adding it to the 
primary, I noticed that I only had ~4.5 gallons.  So I used the same 
small pail to add an additional 0.5 gallons of water.  The 
lactobacillus that lives on the surface of the grain was probably all 
over the inside of that container, and I inocculated my fresh wort 
with a good bit of it.  Fermentation went on as usual, but the beer 
would not clear in the secondary.  So, I decided to taste it - YUCK!  
The beer was dry-hopped (it was a SNPA clone), so there wasn't any 
tell-tale off aroma to let me know of the infection.
Live and learn...and maybe be satisfied with a 4.5 gallon batch! :-)
Cheers
Curt
(deep in the heart of central Pennsylvania)

Curt Speaker                         
Biosafety Officer 
Penn State University                
Environmental Health and Safety    
speaker at ehs.psu.edu                   
http://www.ehs.psu.edu
^...^
(O_O)
=(Y)=
 """


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:45:29 -0400
From: "Dave Russell" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Ames/Mid Iowa Visit

I will be visiting the Ames IA area on business in the near future.  I seem to
recall a fellow hbd'r with affiliations to a brewery/brewpub in the area.  Any
information on this location or other brewpub to visit while I am there.
 Private e-mail ok.  Thanks.


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:51:09 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Durst friablilty/Sticke Glass/...




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 10/07/98 11:51 AM

All,

Has anyone else noticed that Durst malts are more fiable lately? I recent
brewed my O'fest with 10 lbs pils and 5 lb of both munich and dark munich.
My JSP malt mill is not adjustable so that eliminates that variable. The
result I got made me fear for stuck mashes. Lots of powder! After
eliminating my first dough golf balls ever it did, however, glean me at
least 4 extra points from my target and did not Stick as feared. Comments??

With all the wonderful chat about Alts lately I have decided to brew, and
subsequently Label one. What I was wondering was what kind of glassware is
used to serve these beers in? Especially Sticke, for this will be my Sticke
Fingered Frog Alt! My artists minds eye has a frog sticking (with lots of
glue) to a glass of beer. But What kind of Glass???? Also, should i use
belgian pale over American pale ale malt? I can't find a german pale ale
malt. I suppose pils malt wouldn't hurt. Ideas? comments?

Thankyou Louis for playing the role of Butros Butros Ghali.

phil wilcox
poison frog home brewery




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:53:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: Kolsch/Fermentap


Randy asked about the preferred fermentation temperature for Kolschbier.
When I was in Koln in August, I was only able to tour one brewery (although
I sampled Kolsch from many others).  The brewer at Malzmuhle told us that
they initially ferment at 18-22 C (64-71F) for 3 days, and then bring the
temperature down to 4C (39F) for 3 to 4 weeks.  I don't know about the
other breweries, but at least this gives you a reference point.

I completely agree with Herbert's assessment of the Fermentap.  In summary:
seemed like a nifty idea, quickly turned into a troublesome gadget, but we
love the stand for drying carboys.


 -BR Rolya
br at interport.net
New York





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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:59 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Whirlpooling

     Hi all,
     
     Jay asks about whirlpool design, speculating that longer, faster 
     stirring will help increase the efficiency of the process.
     
     This is a common misconception (even amongst some GABF medal winners I 
     know; no, Mr. Gump knows better).  Nothing settles in a whirlpool 
     until AFTER you take the energy out of the system (stop stirring).  As 
     long as you are providing energy (stirring) the solids will remain 
     suspended and near the perimeter of the vessel (the principle behind 
     the centrifuges used for beer and wort clarification).
     
     Stirring the wort too fast or too long is not only a waste of time and 
     energy, but it can hurt your wort.  The hot break material is 
     relatively fragile.  Too much agitation can cause it to break up into 
     smaller pieces that will not settle well in a reasonable amount of 
     time.  Pumps, 90 deg. elbows in pipes, and any other obstacles in the 
     wort flow can also break up the trub.
     
     Settling out cold break in a whirlpool is ineffective because the 
     particle size is so small.  Cold break takes a long time to settle 
     out.  Breweries can use centrifuges, flotation tanks or filters to 
     remove cold break, but most breweries don't bother (this statement is 
     backed up by both Kunze and Paul Smith (Siebel)).
     
     Any cylindrical vessel can be used as a whirlpool.  Converted Sankey 
     kegs work well, but a lot of wort can get left in the kettle depending 
     on where your outlet is.  In a really high-tech whirlpool there may be 
     a ring called an "annular grid" incorporated into the vessel.  The 
     purpose of this device is to prevent the formation of eddy currents 
     that disrupt the trub pile formed by the primary current.
     
     Without one of these grids (like most of our systems) you should allow 
     30-45 minutes settling time (the exact time is dependent on depth; I 
     use this time to hook up the chiller and dump the sanitizer out of my 
     fermenters).  An eddy-wrecking annular grid will save you a short 
     amount of time (Kunze says ~30%, but that the wort should always 
     settle at least 20 min.).  Note that the settling time WILL effect 
     your late hop additions.  When I increased my brew length (and hence 
     the depth of my kettle) I had to wait longer for the wort to settle.  
     My mid-boil hop additions added substantial bitterness to the brew and 
     my late hop additions added a lot of flavor (and less aroma than 
     desired)!
     
     The rotational velocity of your wort should be slow, and the time of 
     energy input (stirring) should be only long enough to get the entire 
     wort into motion (no more than 30 seconds on my system).  Anything 
     more is potentially bad for your beer and a waste of time and effort.
     
     If you don't believe any of this try a simple experiment:  but some 
     sand in a clear, cylindrical vessel.  Start stirring.  Where is the 
     sand?  Stop stirring?  Now what happens?
     
     Interestingly, Einstein (and doubtless millions of others) noticed 
     this exact phenomenon while stirring his tea.  Unlike the millions 
     before him, Einstein wrote his observation down and explained it 
     mathematically.  It took brewers until 1960 to realize the value of 
     this simple observation (H. Ranulph Hudston at Molson, Montreal is the 
     one who *accidentally* discovered the usefulness of hot wort 
     whirlpooling while conducting experiments about the *usefulness* of 
     hot wort aeration!).  Once it was noticed it quickly became the method 
     of choice for wort clarification.
     
     Some Germans soon did experiments that demonstrated the best break 
     separation is achieved with hop powder, the worst with hop extract, 
     and a mediocre result was obtained using whole hops.  On my system 
     (and most others I would think) whole hops are not adequately 
     separated by whirlpooling; some sink, some float, and others find 
     points of neutral buoyancy at all depths in between!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 09:05:00 -0800
From: Jack Phillips <jphillip at FUTUREX.COM>
Subject: Fest


In HBD2843 Dan Sullivan responded
In HBD #2842, Brandon Brown asked:
> I was wondering if anyone has been to a homebrew festival,
> what is the atmosphere like, etc?

Uh, from what I can remember, Saturday was like a backyard bar-b-que with   
300 of my closest friends.  Blue sky, mid 80s.
26 clubs, about 700 gallons of homebrew, 3 bands, speakers were Fritz   
Maytag, Russ Wigglesworth, Martin Lodahl and Byron Burch.  Closed to the   
general public, no commercial beers.
Very civilized, but then beer has for centuries been the cornerstone of   
civilization.  It was way civilized, yes.
Cheers!

Those of you that know may think Dan was just tooting his own horn, but I   
will attest that a great time was had by all that attended this splendid   
event in the Napa valley last weekend. Congratulations should go to Dan   
for managing this fine event. Dan spent many hours promoting, arranging,   
securing commitments, and generally doing whatever it took to make the   
first annual "Northern California Home Brewers Fest" a success. Again I   
say thanks to Dan and all those like him who spend a large percentage of   
their personal time promoting the idea that home brewing should be a   
pleasant and enjoyable experience.


   Jack Phillips
Brewing on the Timberline and a few miles east of Charley B.



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:41:53 -0400 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: fruit fly in the starter

collective homebrew conscience:

after researching several hbd back issues on yeast starters, i decided to
change my method for the first batch this year.  i wanted to get closer to
the constantly aerated, constantly swirled environment.  

so no stir plate, but i ran a sterile-filtered air supply from an aquarium
pump into the headspace of an erlenmyer-type flask and covered it with
plastic wrap.  no airlock.  i figured since the plastic wrap was impeding
any bacteria/wild yeast dropping down from above, the constantly exiting
airflow around the edges of the plastic wrap would probably prevent any
major infection from happening.  

after about 24 hours of constant air supply and numerous manual swirlings, a
fruit fly found his way into the foam of my actively fermenting starter.
contact time was probably less than an hour or so, he was right on the very
top of the foam, and i scooped him out with a boiled stainless spoon.  the
airlock was quickly sanitized and installed.

what say ye, infection masters?  is my starter ruined?  it still smells
fine, but i can't help imagining my batch of english bitter going down in
infectious disaster due to the fly.  there is one more "step up" planned for
this starter, and i'm debating how to avoid this debacle for the next
aeration session.  which brings me to the next question:

what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  do i use a drill
bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?).  or is
there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory
things in the rubber?  

better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or
homebrew shops?

let me add this also:  the new, bigger, more expensive "ready to pitch"
wyeast pack doesn't seem to have created a noticeably bigger sediment in the
starter flask than the old packs did.  maybe i should give it another day or
two to sediment more completely before i make that statement.  i figured
with the constant aeration, the bigger pack, and the repeated manual
swirling, my starter would produce a bigger crop.  should i be expecting a
much larger amount of yeast with the new packs compared to the old ones?

brew hard,

mark bayer





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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:29:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Steering Committee

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your barrister...

Steve Alexander levels a broadside at the Steering Committee regarding 
the recent turn of events...

First, Steve, NOKOMAREE occurred during the AHA's tenure with the HBD. It 
is doubtful the current HBD "administration" commented on it one way or 
t'other as we, frankly, didn't "exist" at the time.

And yes, we, as a whole, understand your concerns. Frankly, though, had
Karl and I not installed a "Steering Committee", the actions taken may
have been a hell of a lot more precipitous than this. The point being that
the SC is fulfilling the exact purpose intended: keeping balance. 
Preventing the decisions of one from simply being executed for all. The
cross section which is the SC has discussed this - at length - and did not
impose the conditions on Mssrs Burley and Korzonas, we negotiated with
them to reduce the "noise" the discussion had descended to. No new
information was being turned up - just a sticking point. The proposed
action will (hopefully) resolve the issue once and for all to the
satisfaction (hopefully) of all involved without watching these two
respected contributors engage in a street brawl over it. 

I tis regrettable that Louis' brief note could not convey the "history" 
of the background discussions between Al, Dave, Louis, the SC and me. 
Most notably not apparent in Louis' note is that they had the right to
decline as well, with no action taken against further posts. 

As for conflict of interest: yeah. It's potentially an issue. However,
Louis could have simply done it all behind the lines, anyway. I prefer to
have it in the open. I don't believe his intent on the Digest is to
"Harvest" it for his BT column because, frankly, he agreed to be a HBD SC
member long before he had that column. Secondly, if the results of his
experimentation gain some notoriety for the HBD in BT, help the content of
that venerable magazine, and, perhaps, repay Louis for some of the pro
bono legal help he has given the Digest in recent years (by alleviating
writer's block, perhaps...), well, you see where I'm going. It is also
little different than the "harvesting" of Digest material that has gone on
pretty much since the Digest's inception. Just a little less insidious - 
he's openly announced his intentions rather than some nugget popping up 
in a book, mag or letter to the editor.

Finally, it is not Louis. It is the HBD SC and Mssrs. Korzonas and Burley
who have agreed to this method. It was preferred by the combatants
(apparently) to the original suggestion that they form an off-Digest group
to experiment and report on the results - similar to the discussion group
formed a couple of years back between you, Al, Dave, and other notables to
discuss another controversial subject that now slips my mind - to preserve
the Digest S/N ratio. 

Out and out censorship will not be instituted during my term of
stewardship of the HBD, and I believe I can speak for Karl and the rest of
the SC as well. Our "charter" is to see to its continued existence and
relative quality. Censorship fits neither. However, we will attempt
arbitration in debates where the "tone" of the debate begins to threaten
either of the two (existence and relative quality). This is not
censorship.  It is an agreement (granted: the terms of the agreement will
be enforced) between gentlefolk to put the discussion aside until some
real data or new information can be reported rather than to poke needles
into each other over some sticking point or other. "Does not!"  "Does
too!" "Does not!" "Does too!"  "Does not!" "Does too!" hardly constitues
meaningful discourse; don't you agree? 

Oh, and though I many times "speak for the steering committee", I am 
speaking for myself at the moment

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."





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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:50:06 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Whirlpool Stuff

"Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>

"Assuming one has a fixed center siphon positioned about 1/8" - 1/4" from
the bottom of the keg center, and assuming that one uses hop pellets,
couldn't an extended whirlpool using a stirring device ala C.D.
Pritchard's neato stirrer (http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/boiler.htm) be
used to get a nice compact cone of trub-y crud which could then be
sucked out through the siphon like a double-wide in a tornado?  The
concave bottom of the keg would even seem to enhance cone formation.

I suspect it would work fine but why complicate something that is
inherently so simple.  I never did understand the point in 
whirlpooling much less what you are suggesting.

If you simply let the wort settle for a nominal period of time after
the boil, you have the same situation as a mash tun, viz., a ready
made filter bed; this time made of spent hops instead of spent grain.
If you draw the liquid from anywhere near the bottom, it will run
crystal clear after the first cup or two.  All you need to do is
provide some means of preventing the end of the pickup tube from
getting clogged, such as an copper scrubber, Sure Screen or Easymasher.

BTW, restaraunt supply houses sell stainless scrubbers that should
have put Chore Boy/Girl/Person out of business years ago but I 
guess it's some sort of conspiracy by the Copper Miners of America.

js
- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:21:46 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: Lead Poisoning

>Wasn't Italian wine and lead goblets part of the downfall of Rome?  

No, actually Rome fell due to lack of resolve to commit themselves to 
anything but a despotic empirical leadership, which later disintegrated 
into a military dictatorship. That, and the combined size of the empire 
coupled with decreased resources made it inevitable.

>Since the wine wasn't up to par with what the Romans were used to, 
>they would 'sweeten' it by drinking it from lead goblets.

While lead goblets existed, the Romans used Cadmium for the most part, 
which resulted in the typical heavy metal toxicity noted.

>This habit, added to their other 'quirks', shortened their reign and 
>lifespan.

Well, revisionist history aside, the Romans fell due to a wide ranging 
series of problems (excess taxation, declining tax roles, decreased raw 
and natural resources, servile wars, vast size for military control, 
despotic military leadership, etc.) not the least of which was just 
plain out moded thinking. Out of the ashes of the old Roman empire rose 
the kingdoms of Europe, which capitalized on the Roman infrastructure, 
and political power (can you say Holy Roman Emperor?).

>This is the kind of stuff that fills my brain, instead of really useful
>info.

Either way, it helps you to get a grip on where we came from, and why.

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:38:05 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: Is my beer going to kill me?

>...the victim treated himself to his own form of chelation therapy by 
>self prescribing a six-pack of beer a night for a month (if I remember 
>the story correctly).

Sorry, Steve, but after I picked myself up off the floor from ROTFLOL,
I have to disagree with your version of "chelation therapy". REAL CT is 
done with small polypeptides that bind to heavy metals, like the way 
iron is bound in hemoglobin.

>And lo and behold, the lead present in his bloodstream dropped out.

Of course serum levels will drop after a short time -- then it goes into 
the bones, where it displaces calcium. Very noticeable on radiograms.

>Can anyone here refute or confirm the possibility of such a therapy
>working?

While I can't refute such anecdotal casual references, it is extremely 
doubtful IMHO that such an event occurred as stated. While the serum 
level of Pb may have dropped to below threshold levels of mensuration, 
the only place that heavy metals can go is into your stools, if 
conjugated with bilirubin, or osseous deposition, which is the more 
common route of autodetox.

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:58:51 -0400
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: Local Brewers

I am loking for some local brewers to get together with in my area and chat
and drink homebrews........
Living in Sturbridge, MA.     Am looking to move to Wochester area........
My local supplier says there are quite a few of people around the area that
brew, but no groups or clubs that I know of..........

Stuart Baunoch
sbaunoch at homeruns.com
Inventory Control Specialist
Hannafords Homeruns




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