---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Don't try this at home ("George De Piro")
  re: grain storage (Mark Tumarkin)
  old malt/rauch/Ireks/dried hops/boil vigor/Weizen secondary (Al Korzonas)
  lactic acid/Bud Light/crush dark malts?/lactic acid or gypsum? (Al Korzonas)
  Keg Refrigerators (Brian K Balfe)
  Service in Vegas (John Wilkinson)
  Carboy Stands (randy.pressley)
  CP Filler ("Steve")
  Steering Committee and Such (Rick Wood)
  Clinitest Project (Louis Bonham)
  Re:Censorship, say it again Steve (Mark Tumarkin)
  UK homebrewers-small amount of supplies available to a good home ("Thomas Proulx")
  The Knights Who Sayyyyyy...  "Cee" ("Grow, Roger H")
  Drilling a rubber stopper ("Peter J. Calinski")
  clinitest and censorship (Paul Niebergall)
  New-brewer questions (Matt Comstock)
  Re: Durst friablilty/Sticke Glass/... (Jeff Renner)
  Poland Springs Jugs (John Biggins)
  re: Lead Poisoning (Matthew Taylor)
  drilled stoppers (John_E_Schnupp)
  re:fruit fly in starter (MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA)
  Clinitest Brew Ha Ha (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Frozen Hops ("Michael O. Hanson")
  RE: Heat exchanger (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Poldar Thermoprobes/Timers (Christophe Frey)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:03 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Don't try this at home

     Hi all,
     
     A few weeks ago I tried my first intentional sour mash.  I made a 
     fairly major mistake that I thought worthy of posting (so that others 
     may avoid such stupidity).
     
     I mashed-in the grains (45% barley malt, 50% raw wheat, 5% raw oats) 
     at about 100F (38F), reserving 2 quarts of the mash for innoculating 
     the mash with bacteria later.  I then went on my merry mashing way, 
     ending with a 15 minute rest at 158F (70C).  My intention was to 
     denature beta-amylase so that it would not over-degrade the mash 
     during the overnight rest.  I then cooled the mash to about 110F (43C) 
     using an immersion chiller and added the 2 quarts of reserved mash.  
     There was quite a bit of starchy gunk in the reserved mash, but I 
     wasn't worried:  I'll simply heat the mash to 165F (74C) the next day 
     to allow the alpha amylase to degrade it.
     
     The next morning the mash was trying to crawl out of the pot and 
     reeked (I was quite pleased with myself at this point).  The pH was at 
     most 4.0 (my papers don't go any lower and my dog ate the electrode 
     from my pH meter months ago).  I then heated the stinky mess to 74C 
     (which really made the house smell great; I think it was at this point 
     that my girlfriend left for the day) and waited for the starch to 
     saccharify.
     
     Well, those of you that know about enzyme kinetics know what happened: 
     Nothing happened!  The text books don't lie when they say that the 
     optimal range for alpha amylase is well above 5.  After 2 hours I 
     still had a starchy mess on my hands.
     
     Since it was a wit beer I figured the haze would be OK, but I then 
     went on to over spice it.  Hopefully the orange flavor will fade 
     before the starch causes any significant problems!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:35:36 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: grain storage

There has been an ongoing thread recently about grain storage problems.
I am in the process of moving to all-grain and would appreciate some
input on my planned solution. I have gotten half a dozen HDPE plastic
buckets with lids & grommet seals from local supermarkets and bakeries.
Some I got free, some I had to pay $1 each. I was planning on putting
the grain inside of these, possibly in large, plastic trash sacks first.
Or I had even thought about weighing out and pre-packaging batches for
individual recipes in large ziplocks. These buckets are cheap, hold a
lot of grain, and can be easily stacked. The only question is - how well
will the grain keep this way. My brewery is not air-conditioned so it
can be warm and humid. How long should I expect the grain to last in
good condition. I know that some people store grain in their
refrigerators or freezers. How well does this work. I have a little
space in one of my freezer compartments, but beer storage keeps the
fridges pretty well filled. TIA for any suggestions or help.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:57:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: old malt/rauch/Ireks/dried hops/boil vigor/Weizen secondary

A few more aged topics...

Chris writes:
>Recently I have noticed that a few of the grain bags that I opened over the
>last six months are absorbing moisture. I usually bag them in large trash
>bags, but I have gotten lazy lately and now I am wondering, can I/should I use
>these grains? I assume I can, but if I do, what are the downside consequences?
>Also, what are people doing who store a lot of different grains? The basement
>is my only true choice, and even with the dehumidifier running 24/7, there is
>excess moisture present.I purchase 50-55 lbs bags, so tupper wear doesn't real
>ly cut it and lining up 8-10 garbage cans probably wouldn't be too feasible
>either.

There is one possible and one sure problem with old malt.  The sure problem
is that the malt absorbs moisture and when you weigh out 7 pounds, get what
would have weighed 6.75 pounds when the malt was fresh.  This is actually
mostly an inconvenience because all you need to do is count on less points
per pound per gallon.  The possible problem is that the malt will have
some stale flavours which will lead to stale-flavoured beer.  One flavour
that comes to mind is "metallic."  Some oxidised compounds in old malt
can lead to metallic flavours in the finished beer.

What I do is buy malt in bulk and store it in gasketted 5- and 7-gallon
HDPE buckets.  They will hold about 28 and 35 pounds respectively and
while 3mil HDPE bags are rather porous to oxygen, 1/8" thick HDPE buckets
are very good at sealing out water and sealing in malt aromas.  I've opened
buckets that were sealed 3 years ago and suddenly, you could smell the malt
upstairs!  Granted this malt was not as perfect as fresh malt, but it was
by no means unusable.  What else is nice about these buckets is that they
stack and keep out bugs/rodents!

***
Dave writes:
>I had a quick look in the archives, but didn't find a lot
>of detail on Rauchbier formulation.  I understand that
>it should be generally in the Vienna style but assertively
>smokey from beechwood smoked malt.
> 
>Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
>example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
>simply use this for the base malt?
 
I've had correspondence with one homebrewer who has used 90+% Weyermann
Rauchmalt in a beer and didn't feel it was overly smoky.  I used 22%
(if memory serves) in mine and it was quite powerful.  Mind you, I was
shooting for a very mild smokiness, like that from Brauerei Spezial.
I used between 20 and 25% Weyermann Rauch and then the balance was Weyermann
Vienna malt.

Rauchbiers range in smokiness from the intense (like Kaiserdom) to the
strong (like Schlenkerla) to the faint (like Spezial).  Most, indeed, are
vaguely in the "Vienna" style, although Spezial makes a Pils and a Maerzen
(at least... maybe a few more).

In my opinion, I wouldn't use more than 35% Weyermann Rauchmalt unless
you are some kind of a smoke fanatic.

***
Rob writes:
>Does anybody know where to find specifics, ie. malt analysis, on the Ireks
>line of malts. Although Vinotheque tells me that Ireks is a large
>maltster/grower, a brewing buddy and I find it strange that there is no info
>easily obtainable, such as on the WWW.

Weyermann makes much (all?) of Ireks malt and as far as I know, the former
importer of Ireks (Crosby and Baker) has switched over to buying directly
from Weyermann, so I'm not sure if you can even get Ireks malt anymore (you
can still get their malt extract, I believe).

***
Ian writes:
>What is wrong with removing all of the moisture [from hops] anyway?

They become too fragile.  This is a problem for commercial hop brokers,
but maybe removing all the moisture is not a problem for homebrewers.

***
Mark writes, quoting me:
>>Either you boiled too long, too hard, with the lid off too much or you
>>didn't have enough runnings to begin with.
> 
>this was in response to why the post-boil quantity of wort was too low.
>al's answer is strictly correct, but i have a further question based on the
>following premise:  fixing the amount of wort quantity at the end of the
>boil is easy enough to do with more runnings from the sparge bed (assuming
>gravity/ph stay high/low enough), or with treated brewing water (ph
>adjusted).
> 
>given this, are there any detriments to boiling as vigorously as you can?
>i've always thought the harder the better.  somewhere i remember reading
>that you can boil too *long* and mess up the hot break (truth?fiction?), but
>given a 90 minute boil, is it possible to boil too hard and have negative
>flavor consequences?

Yes... but it depends somewhat on the style.  Boiling too vigorously will
cause more caramelization and melanoidin formation.  For some styles (Wit,
American Pilsner, etc.) this a big problem.  For others (Scottish Strong
Ale, for example), it is a positive flavour component.  You certainly
don't want to scorch *any* beer style... that would be flavour negative
for all styles (well, maybe a bad way to make a cheepskate Rauchbier).

That somewhere was either in George Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science,"
DeClerck's "A Textbook of Brewing" or quotes from these books here in HBD.
DeClerck says that, under ideal conditions, maximum break will be formed
in a 60 minute boil.  I don't recall the exact time (it was somewhere on
the order of 2 hours), but George Fix did indeed note that after a certain
length of boil, the hot break does begin to re-dissolve.

***
Mike writes:
>Need some info on Hefe Weizen
>Made a batch the other day and it is now in the primary.
>My question is, the recipes I've seen all call for a secondary ferment.
>The fellow in the Home-brew shop I frequent tells me the secondary
>ferment is not necessary for this style.
>It's basically a Bavarian dry extract brew.
>Very low hops.
>And if the secondary is not needed, how long should it stay in the
>primary before I bottle  (he also said the Germans do not keg Weizen
>only bottle)
>My guess is about 4 weeks.
>What's your opinion.

There are opposing opinions on this topic, but I fall on the "you don't
need a secondary for most ales" side of the debate.  4 weeks is fine,
although with good oxygenation and a solid starter, you could be ready
to bottle in 2.

While most Weizen you get is indeed bottled, I personally have had draught
Weizen from the Paulaner Brauhaus (hausbraurei -- brewpub) in Munich.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:29:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: lactic acid/Bud Light/crush dark malts?/lactic acid or gypsum?

Peter writes:
>I picked up some lactic acid to use in my brewing.  Can someone tell me -
>Should I add it to the mash water or the sparge water or both?  And what
>amount per gallon should I add?  I am not interested in trying to modify my
>water's profile to look like some other areas water profile, but I am
>willing to use a few simple additives to improve the mash.

You should use lactic acid closely in conjunction with pH papers or a meter.
You should check your mash pH and add a few drops of lactic acid, stir and
remeasure (lather, rinse, repeat) if the mash pH is above around 5.8.

During the sparge, you should again measure the pH and add a little lactic
acid to the sparge water (a few drops, stir, remeasure the mash pH after
a few minutes) if the mash pH begins to rise above 5.8.  You don't want
to overdo it because if you do, you'll get poor break formation and slightly
lower hop utilisation (from too low a boil pH -- if it's lower than about
4.8 or 5.0 or so).  You may not need any acid until halfway through the
sparge.  The mash has quite a bit of "inertia" when it comes to pH changes
and the reason that the pH begins to rise is because you are drawing out
5.6 pH (or so) wort and replacing it with 7.5 or 8.0 pH water.  The calcium
naturally in your water will react with the phosphates in the malt and this
will lower the pH on it's own.  This is why hard (high calcium) water is
preferred by many brewers.

Actually, adding some sulphate (as gypsum) to IPAs and Bitters, does make
them taste a bit more authentic as does adding carbonate (as chalk) to
stouts if your water is very ion-free.  I used to add some Burton Water
Salts to all my recipes and then wondered why they all tasted quite similar.
I could make very authentic Bitters, but couldn't make an Alt or Weizen
or Munchner Dunkel that tasted right.  It turns out it was the water
chemistry.  There are simple ways to modify your water without complex
formulas -- it doesn't have to be rocket science.

Lactic acid is preferable to phosphoric (the other common acid used in
the mashtun), actually.  Both will lower pH, but calcium lactate is formed
when you add the former and calcium phosphate when you add the latter.
Since calcium lactate is more soluble than calcium phosphate, you end
up with more calcium in your wort (in the boiler and fermenter) when you use 
lactic acid.  This calcium is important for reducing oxalate haze and
promoting yeast flocculation.

***
Clint writes:
>The opinion that stands out is Jack S.'s.  He speculates
>that they just brew a Bud and then dilute for Bud-Lite.  I
>have yet to read in the HBD if this was resolved, so I'll tell
>you what the A-B brewmaster stated.  He said that they
>do about a 30 min mash for Bud and then do about a 2 hr
>mash for Bud-Lite.  This long mash breaks a higher
>percentage of complex sugars to simple sugars that the
>yeast can eat.

Simply mashing longer will not cause the wort to be more fermentable.
It could be that the mash destined for Bud is mashed for 30 minutes
at 158F and the mash for Bud Light mashed for 2 hours at 150F (or
maybe 30 minutes at 122F and 1.5 hours at 150F).  There would be
virtually no difference in wort that was mashed for 30 minutes at
158F and 120 minutes at 158F.  I've also read where they use some
special enzymes that they add to the mash to make "lite" beers.
That might explain why Miller Lite has an FG of 0.096.  Then again,
they filter the dickens out of all these beers, which strips out
most of the protein and much of the flavour.

***
Cas writes:
>I am going to be making an Imperial Stout shortly. I have heard of, and
>read about, a few different ideas concerning how to handle the roasted
>grains.
>One was to crush along with the other grains and mash as usual. Another was
>to mash but not crush. Another was to crush and/ or not crush and add to
>the mash towards the end of the mash cycle. Confused? You betcha!

I'm surprised nobody answered this question.  At least someone should have
commented on the "don't crush" part...

I suspect that the "don't crush the dark malts" came from either "Beer
for Dummies" or "Homebrewing for Dummies."  I'm afraid this is a waste
of malt/grain.  You should crush all malts/grains that go in the mash
(except perhaps for flaked and steel-cut grains).  Otherwise, you will
only get a fraction of their "goodness."

That aside, there have been numerous debates in HBD on whether it is
better to add your (crushed) dark malts/grains in the beginning or at the
end of the mash.  Personally, I add them at the beginning, but there
have been several very happy brewers who have reported excellent results
with adding the dark malts/grains at the end of the mash.  It is important
to note that adding them at the end will not get as much colour or
flavour from them, so you can't use recipes interchangeably.

One thing to consider, is whether your water is high in bicarbonates/
carbonates.  If it is, then your mash would go better and your beer
taste better if you added at least part of the dark malts/grains at
the beginning.  You see, the dark malts will lower the pH.  Too high
a pH is a problem because of polyphenol (aka tannin) extraction and
because the enzymes work less efficiently.  If your pH is reasonable
even without the dark grains, then you have a choice.  There are those
who have reported a smoother flavour/less sharpness from adding the
dark malts/grains at the end of the mash.  Perhaps this is true... I
haven't tried it.  Just remember that you will have to use more dark
malt/grain if you are taking an "added at the beginning" recipe and
making it via the "added at the end" method.  Perhaps someone who
has compared the two could comment on how much more to add?

On the other hand, if your water is very low in carbonates/bicarbonates,
then you may need to add some (as calcium carbonate in the mash) to
actually RAISE the pH (if it's below 5.0).  Add a little, stir and remeasure.

***
Darrell writes:
>Is it the case that gypsum is recommended more often than Lactic Acid to
>bring PH down to acceptible levels in that most times our water can use the
>calcium?

It depends... it's true that for all practical purposes, you can't add
too much calcium, but what you can add is too much of the compound's
anion (i.e.  chloride in the case of CaCl2 and sulphate in the case of
gypsum).  In other words, if you are making an IPA, you would prefer
to lower the pH via gypsum because you need the sulphate.  On the other
hand if you are making a Bohemian Pilsner, you would use lactic acid
or calcium chloride (which is tough to find in food grade) because you
specifically, DON'T want sulphate in your water.  In the case of lactic
acid, you would only use it if your mash pH indicated a need.

Then again, many writers/recipe authors don't understand this and are
simply recommending lactic acid or gypsum as a matter of habit, without
even considering the potential recipe user's water profile.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:46:23 -0400
From: Brian K Balfe <bbalfe at us.ibm.com>
Subject: Keg Refrigerators

Here's my question.

 I have an ex-relative who has inherited a bunch of stuff from her
Mother and Step-father.  One of the items, which she's offered to sell me, is a
small "off-the-shelf" refrigerator made expressly for dispensing store bought
keg beer.  I thought it was a Sears brand, but can't be sure.  I also seem to
remember the name "Kegalator" or something, but again, can't be sure.  I've
called her to inquire of the make and model.

 I was wondering if these are still made, by whom, if they can be
refurbished, if it is a turn-key, self-contained system; i.e., just buy a keg,
tap it and your off?  I don't remember seeing any sort of lines, or a tap, or
gas cylinders, etc.  I just remember the box and the neck/spout sticking up out
of the top.

 I have a small CO2 cylinder, three Corneilus Kegs and all the "fixins"
to dispense home brew of which my best friend used to keep me in good supply
of.  I'd like to use this new keg refrigerator on its own and eventually build
it in.

 Can you give me any advise or put me in touch with any manufacturers or
anyone else that might be able to help.



Regards,



Brian K. Balfe
Client Representative
IBM Global Government Industry
404 Wyman Street
Waltham, MA  02254
781.895.2785 (Voice/Fax/Page)
8.362.2785
bbalfe at us.ibm.com

41 Saint Botolph Street
Boston, MA  02116-6463
617.266.4915




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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 17:43:54 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Service in Vegas

Pat Babcock wrote of the Holy Cow Brewpub in Las Vegas:

>Good beer or not, Kim and I left never to return. Ever. I doubt that
>the beer - no matter how good it might be - could possibly get the
>foul aftertaste of this "service" out of my mouth...


Perhaps HC's idea of "service" is the animal husbandry definition as in
"the bull services the cow".

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:05:10 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: Carboy Stands

My method of cleaning a carboy is to soak it in a bleach solution for days 
or 
months(cause I'm lazy) then on brew day I rinse with water and add an
idophor solution which is then drained and air dried.  When I do this I 
invert
the carboy.  I used to use a wash bucket as a stand which was not very 
stable I then discovered by accident that cinder blocks make a perfect
stand for an inverted carboy.  You can get a cinder block at any home
improvement store for about 99 cents.  I use the cinder blocks to make a
three tier system.  They stack well and are very stable and portable when
I'm finished.  Now they have another function.  I highly recommend the 
cinder
block as a carboy stand.



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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:19:45 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: CP Filler

Greetings all,

I posted about my cp filler a few weeks back and
mentioned that I'd have a web page on it soon. It
is ready for anyone who cares to look at it. Click
on the link below and go to the Gadgets page.

Hoppy Brewing,

Steve
State of Franklin Homebrewers
~650 miles south of Jeff in Johnson City,
Tennessee
http://home.att.net/~stjones1



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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 18:27:22 +1100
From: Rick Wood <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Steering Committee and Such

Hello All,
I must weigh in on the Steering Committee issues.

I for one really appreciate the steering committee and think what they
did was appropriate.  The Clinitest debate had degenerated into
restatements of known positions by the competence and jokes by most of
the others who bothered to comment.

The HBD is really not subject to censorship, in that it is a private,
non-governmental party.  As such, the Janitors, or the Steering
Committee, or who ever happens to have control can do as they wish. 
Some may not consider it fair and that just does not matter.  Those of
us will continue to read the HBD as long as we perceive that the time
expended is worth the trouble.  When it is not we will not.

I hope that we have seen a change in the HBD and that posters will
understand that the posts should be related to the issues.  It is
entirely appropriate that those who own and/or manage the HBD, what ever
they are called exercise some judgement.  I hope the days when our
members can be called Nazis and Communists or must "listen" to such
tripe are over.  I think that this issue was handled in a very balanced
way.

I anxiously await Louis's BT article on Clinitest, or most any other
subject.  I suspect that Al, Dave and Louis would be happy to share the
data with anyone else who wants to write an article for BT, Zymurgy, BYO
or any other publication.

To the Janitors and Steering Committee I want to say that I appreciate
all of your good efforts in keeping this forum such a useful and
respected forum for all of our use.

Regards,
Rick Wood


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 03:34:13 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Clinitest Project

 Hi folks:

Pat Babcock has pointed out a number of factual errors contained in Mr.
Alexander's little tantrum on the Steering Committee's recent actions.  There
are several others that bear correction:

> A member of the Steering committee, Louis Bonham, announces a 'voluntary'
> censorship of a technical topic on this forum until he has a chance to produce
> an experimental result and publish an article under his own name in BT.  Louis
> should of course not be allowed to participate in any censorship determination
> or any policy issue in which he has a stake.  Conflict of interest - it is
> entirely unethical by any measure.  Why else can't the details of the
> experimental design be posted here besides personal interest in conflict with
> that of the digest.

As Pat has pointed out, the decision was that of the Steering Committee as a
whole, not mine, and was a negotiated proposal to AVOID censorship of the HBD
while trying to reduce the s/n ratio of the dispute.  Further, had Steve
bothered to check with me, he might have found that after Dave, Al, and I agree
on a methodology and experiment design, indeed I was planning to post the
details of the proposed experiment design here for comments.

However, let me raise a different point.  What is my "personal interest" that
presents an "unethical" conflict of interest?  Economic?  Heck, I get the
princely sum of about $125 per column, which I usually spend on the supplies and
other stuff used to do the experiments for the column!  If I factored in my time
at my current billing rates, doing my BT column probably *costs* me a few
thousand dollars per issue.  Suffice it to say that I'm not doing it for the
money -- I do it for fun.  Fame?  Gimme a break.  The chance to claim the ideas
as my own?  As anyone who's read my columns will attest, I *always* make it a
point to credit, identify, and thank HBD contributors (e.g., George DePiro,
George Fix, Mort O'Sullivan, etc.) whose ideas or comments I may write up, nor
does it bother me to share authorship credit if someone else actually writes a
portion of the article.

There's nothing sinister going on here.  The Steering Committee was concerned
about the tone of the discussion between Dave and Al, as even Mr. Alexander
acknowledges was getting out of hand.  Dave and Al had each suggested that they
would be open to an independent evaluation.  I merely proposed a solution to
reduce the level of noise on this issue without having to resort to the
draconian remedy of censorship -- using a carrot rather than a stick.  The
Steering Committee approved it, Messrs. Burley and Korzonas agreed to it, and I
dutifully reported it to the HBD.  Where's the beef?

I'll resist the urge to spend additional bandwidth responding to some of the
other, more personal aspects of Mr. Alexander's commentary.  I'd just suggest in
closing that in the future he check his facts with the same degree of rigor as
he checks his copy of Kunze.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net



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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:21:34 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:Censorship, say it again Steve

Like a lot (most, all?) of you, I think the Clinitest debate has grown
tiresome, and a well designed experiment to perhaps 'settle' the issue
would be most welcome. However I totally agree with Steve Alexander. To
the point where after reading his post, I thought I would copy it in
total and post it under the heading Say It Again Steve. I felt I
couldn't state the issues better than that. Obviously I thought better
of the idea, if you think banning brewing oriented discussions are a
good idea, maybe you should go back and read it again.

Dave and Al are both intelligent and passionate about brewing, and also
about this forum. A little heat (and a lot of repetition) are just part
of the process. Censorship is a dangerous and slippery slope and I don't
think we should accept it here. We all have our individual censors in
the page down key, use that if you want, but please don't start
censoring the rest of us.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:42:00 +0900
From: "Thomas Proulx" <proulx at honjo.hatelecom.or.jp>
Subject: UK homebrewers-small amount of supplies available to a good home

Hello,

Please excuse the limited scope of this post...

Due to a foul-up I have some excess homebrew supplies located in the UK.
The problem is I'm in Japan. I overestimated the efficiency of the UK post
and the stuff arrived after my friend left the UK for Japan. Rather than
have this stuff sit around in her house, I'd like to sell the following as
a batch:

3kg wheat malt
1kg Munich malt
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley
500g carapils
100g packets of Northdown, Fuggles, K. Golding, Cascade, and N. Brewer.

This is strictly non-profit. I'm just trying to get some of my money back.
I already had to eat the cost of the yeast I bought. Please email me for
more info. Thank you,

 -Tom Proulx


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:28:29 -0600 
From: "Grow, Roger H" <GrowRH at LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: The Knights Who Sayyyyyy...  "Cee"

Oh NICE, now we've replaced one "C" pissing contest with another. I wonder
how deep in the crapper the S/N ratio will go now. Thats all we're ever
going to hear is posts about C...

Wait, I'm doing it, C what you made me do...

I did it again, oh the horror, the horror, I can't C...

I did it again....

Now your doing it...

Stop it, stop it, can't you C...

Aaaahhhhhh!







Unless Otherwise Specified:
	RHG


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:38:40 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Drilling a rubber stopper

"Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" asked:

what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  do i use a drill
bit 

I found the rubber to be too "wobbley" when I tried to drill it but if I
put it in the freezer for a few days it seemed to help.  I wonder what a
bath in liquid nitrogen would do for the wobbles.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:56:51 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: clinitest and censorship

Steve Alexander wrote:

>No one is entirely happy with the form of the Clinitest discussion, but 
>frankly intelligent opinionated guys like Al and David are the only ones 
>who bother to push these issues to their conclusion. They are the only 
>ones who care enough to try to find or refute new methods and >question 
the current state of technology.

So Al and Dave are the only ones who care enough to try to find or 
refute new methods and question the current state of technology?  Gosh, 
I thought we all did.  That is why the HBD exists.  I think Steve is 
confusing the concept of caring with that of people with over-inflated 
egos that cannot bear to lose an argument.

Anyway, on to the topic of censorship.

>It's part of the process and we all should count ourselves fortunate 
>to >have had a ringside seat.  Well we did have.  What has happened is 
>that we have all now been excluded from observing and participating in 
>this process.  All the neo-mccarthyites that suggested this topic should 
>be banned should feel real proud right now that their complaints have 
>resulted in the first serious threat in my memory of *censorship* of a 
>brewing topic on HBD. This is unacceptable to me.

The term fortunate is not exactly the word that comes to my mind.  
Anyway, if the clinitest debate has boiled down to nothing more that an 
endless string of:

Clinitest works
Clinitest does not work
Clinitest works
Clinitest does not work

and so on ad infinitum, its really not censorship until somebody is 
prevented from posting something about clinitest that has not been posted 
before.  The parties involved have agreed to suspend postings until 
somebody has something new to say about clinitest. Unless they were forced 
to agree not to post under a state of duress, it is not really censorship. 
 From the tone of Mr. Bonhams post, it sounds as if an agreement has 
been reached.  I just do not see a problem with that.  Al, Dave, Louis, 
please correct me if I am wrong on this.

Brew On, 

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City

P.S. - I actually ejoyed reading the endless stream of clinitest posts 
that said nothing.  But, it's not like I'm really going to miss it 
either.

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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:13:27 -0400 
From: Matt Comstock <MComstock at shepherdcolor.com>
Subject: New-brewer questions

I've got some new-brewer questions.  Oh hbd gods, smile on me with your
wisdom.

1.  Any point in a starter for dry yeast.  Or just add another packet?

2.  What's the best way to aerate with a plastic fermenter (can't tip it on
its side and shake)?  I've been siphoning through a wire mesh strainer from
boiling kettle to fermenter - enough?  Also, I've been using dry yeast which
apparently don't need as much initial O2 as liquid cultures.  Will I get in
trouble with low O2 if I switch to liquid yeast and starters.

3.  Eight hour road trip with bottle conditioned beer - will sediment be
disturbed?  How long until it settles again?  Also, this pertains to the
recent question about sending bottles through the mail for competition.  How
long does it take for sediment to settle before judging?

4.  Higher OG = warmer fermentation.  What's the best way to cool?  and not
shock?  I've heard of the wet t-shirt idea (oh baby), tried it with a
1-gallon glass fermenter and was not impressed.  But how about a 6.5 -gallon
plastic bucket fermenter?  Buy a refrigerator?  Immerse in a swimming pool?

5.  William's brewing (www.williamsbrewing.com) advertises a plastic
siphonless fermenter.  It is really just a bottling bucket with a spigot,
but has a down-turned plastic elbow attached on the interior side of the
spigot to avoid sediment buildup.  Anybody have one?  Comments?

6.  Using 2 packs per 5 gallons of the same strain of dry yeast (Munton's
Gold):  for an OG = 1.041 pale ale, fermentation slowed gradually, in an OG
= 1.061 stout it dropped off faster, about 24 h earlier.  Both started after
about the same 24 h lag time.  Differences common?

7.  I stir constantly during the 1 h boil.  I get nervous looking at cartoon
pictures of 'the boil-over blues.'  I'm also worried about burning the wort
at the bottom of the kettle if I don't stir.  Do you all stir during the
whole boil?  I keep the lid on partially so there's a layer of steam there.
Any big deal?

Thanks for any help.  Pretty lame questions, for the most part, sorry.

Honestly, I kinda miss the C* debate.  I've got hopes for a good censorship
debate, though.  Can't make everyone happy.  Don't even try.

Matt


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:26:16 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Durst friablilty/Sticke Glass/...

"Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> wrote

>Has anyone else noticed that Durst malts are more fiable lately?

No.

>Lots of powder! ...
>at least 4 extra points from my target...

Results count.  Maybe you were getting a proper crush for the first time!
I also overshot my target a bit in my now lagering Dunkel using 100% dark
Munich from Durst.  No hint of a stuck mash, good clear runoff.

>... Alts .. what kind of glassware is
>used to serve these beers in? Especially Sticke,

A "stubby, cylindrical glass"  (Jackson NWGTB, p. 71, great photos on p.
73, but they don't look all that stubby to me).  See also the cover of the
new style series Alt by Dornbusch.  He says that should be served in 0.2,
0.2 or 0.4 liter straight sided glasses.

>Also, should i use
>belgian pale over American pale ale malt? I can't find a german pale ale
>malt. I suppose pils malt wouldn't hurt.

Certainly pils is what is normally recommended for German ales, although I
wouldn't be surprised if there is some special malt peculiar to Dusseldof
that doesn't fit a pils profile and which isn't exported.  100% light
Munich (20 EBC/8L) ought to work, it seems to me, for a regular Alt.
Dornbusch's one non-crystal malt recipe calls for 100% 6.5L Munich.  For a
Sticke, I think German Munich would still be the appropriate base malt.

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 10:34:16 -0800
From: John Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Poland Springs Jugs

Wrote:

Would Poland Spring Water 6 Gallon Jugs be OK to use for fermentation
vs.
Glass Charboys....????
I can obtain a couple of these at no cost.......
Only worries would be sanitation...
- ------

I do all my ferments in 5gal PVPP carboys that are impossible to clean
w/ brush.  When finished, I fill the carboys completely w/ water/bleach
solution, which over about a week or so removes all residue.  When ready
to begin ferment, I wash 3x w/ boiling water.  So far no infections w/
clean carboys. 

My $0.02

- ------------
John Biggins
Cornell University Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center


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Date: Thu,  8 Oct 98 08:08:55 -0700
From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu>
Subject: re: Lead Poisoning

Hello All,

	Just got started back on the "HBD" after a long summer and I'm 
finding the lead string rather interesting.  It does raise one 
question in my mind which I will ask VERY tounge in cheek.
	Will lead in my yeast starter kill botulisim?


Send flames c/o
Matt Taylor
mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu

In Sunny Southern 

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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:04:25 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: drilled stoppers

>what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  do i use a
drill
>bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?).  or
is
>there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory
>things in the rubber?

I've never home drilled one but putting a sharp end on a piece of tubing
seems like it should work.  I've actually read that is the way to do it
instead of trying to use a drill bit.

>better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or
>homebrew shops?

Yes and maybe.  I was looking at the lab supply sites on the web and most
had drilled stoppers, problem was that I couldn't find any at 3/8", they
were all 5mm.  I checked last week when I was at my homebrew supply shop.
They had a wide range of sizes all the was up to #14 or #15 with a single
3/8" hole.  On a stopper the size of a #10 or better it should be no
problem
to add another hole.  Another way to get dual use from a single hole is to
use the same principle as CP bottling, where a T-fitting us used to both
allow liquid to enter and air to exit, except in the case of using it for
a starter it would allow air in and air out.


     +<<<air in - from a filtered aquarium pump
    | |
    | |
    | |
   /| |\
  | | | |
  | | | |
  | | | +___
  | | |      >>air out - attach tubing and dunk in water for air lock
  | | | +___
  | | | |
XX| | | |XXrubber stopper
  | | | |
    | |
    | |
    | |
     +>>>air out into flask


*********************************************************************

>BTW, restaraunt supply houses sell stainless scrubbers that should
>have put Chore Boy/Girl/Person out of business years ago but I
>guess it's some sort of conspiracy by the Copper Miners of America.

I've also seen stainless Chore Boy pad in my supermarket, so I don't
think it's a conspiracy against the copper miners


John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA <mmaceyka at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: re:fruit fly in starter

Mark Bayer asked if a fruit fly in his starter contaminated it.
Inocclulated it with bacteria: absolutely.  Contaminated it, i.e. will
this ruin my beer: yes, in all probability.   Culturing my yeast down the
hall from a lab that works with fruit flies, I can tell you that fruit
flies are not very sanitary.  I have had starters become overrun by
bacteria in a matter of hours after a fruit fly crawled in.  I never
waited long enough to see if there were any wild yeasts also introduced,
but I would be suprised if they weren't.  You could go ahead and do the
experiment, but I 'd be willing to bet your beer will suffer for it.  Now,
if you wanted to make a pLambic...

Mike Maceyka
Still taking suggestions for a cool brewery name...
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:32:29 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Clinitest Brew Ha Ha

Steve Alexander gives a very thoughtful and well developed essay of the
subject and I compliment him on his post.

To add my thoughts:

I was somewhat surprised at all the fuss about the dreaded "C" debate.
Sure, it was getting a bit old, but it seemed to me that it was near the end
of it's natural lifespan.  If left alone, it probably would have died of old
age soon.

Dave's well oiled keyboard would go on to bigger and better things, Al's
posts are clear, informative, and regular.  And life would continue.  So, I
guess this voluntary censorship may be unnecessary.

Has anyone really been harmed by this "C" discussion, I think not.

What happens, by the way, If I suddenly decide to try "C" and start to post
about it, will my keyboard line be severed?  What if someone gets tired
about hearing about our beloved RIMS?

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:45:08 -0500
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
Subject: Frozen Hops

What happens to hops if they are harvisted after being frozen or subject to
frost?  I'd think that freezing hops with high water content would result
in changes to the glands and loss of aromatics when they are dried.

Thanks in Advance,


Mike Hanson



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:57:58 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Heat exchanger

From: "Phil Barker" <pbarker at earthlink.net>

>pump to circulate the water in the mash tun through the coil in
>the sparge water back to the mash tun, using a drilled copper coil  to
>disperse the water.

Do you ever have any problem with grains clogging the drilled holes?  My
RIMS uses clear see-through Tygon tubing, and I can see grains occasionally
whizzing by, circulating along with the mash liquor.  This finally stops
(the grains!) after about fifteen minutes.  I use 1/2 inch copper elbows
pointing straight up and submerged below the water level in the mash tun, so
no clogging occurs.

>When mash is complete, I connect the pump to the outlet of the sparge pot
>and to my sparge are and begin sparging.

I connect the pump to the outlet of the sparge pot also, and I have the pump
output still going through the heat exchanger, and I continue to sparge with
the same copper elbow manifold.  This pushes all the wort in the heat
exchanger out and into the mash tun.

>Its a large volume of water, but temp adjust is better buffered from
>fluctuation and I've heated only one volume of water, and it's ready when I
>am. As a mater of fact the temp increase to mash out brings the sparge
water
>to correct temp.

Yes, and it gives me time to think and react,  this is good.  I control all
temps manually.
Also, it is just about impossible to scorch the wort.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: 08 Oct 1998 10:33:43 -0400
From: Christophe Frey <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: Poldar Thermoprobes/Timers


to: post@hbd.org

I went through three Poldars, and I believe they were $25 or so. I was
thrilled the first few times I used one. My friend Rich Byrnes, a gadget freak
in the third degree, assisted by straightening out the probe, inserting it
into a longer probe, sealed it off and presto, an 18" probe that could give me
instant reading to within .1o anywhere within my mash tun. As I typically use
2-3 thermometers while I brew, this seemed like the ideal solution. Until it
stopped giving accurate readings around the third brew.

Seeing as I had "modified" the probe, I figured I couldn't return it, so I
purchased another. I used the modified probe and everything was working great
until the timer/temp. readout unit slid off the edge of my mash tun and into
the barrel. A thorough rinse of the unit to get all the sticky sweetness off
of it and a receipt for a return and I had my third unit. It too, lasted one
brew and it too began to fail. So I now own two rather expensive timers (great
for reminding me when I need to add hops and time other essential data).

As Steve indicated in an earlier post, a rather frail unit for brewing. Is
there a solid digital probe that anyone out there would recommend? I find the
little dial-type thermometers to be too inaccurate. I do like the pen-type of
probes (available at Sears Hardware stores for arounf $11-$12), but their
probe is only 3"-4", so it really can't tell me much more than the surface
temp or temp's at the probe inlets.

Sincerely,
Chris P. Frey
Strategic Planning & New Product Development  337-1642
chris.frey-ford at e-mail.com


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