HOMEBREW Digest #2846 Sat 10 October 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Pewter (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings (Al Korzonas)
  Re:Clinitest Brew Ha Ha (Some Guy)
  Stopper drilling (was fruit fly in the starter) (Rod Schaffter)
  Re: Sticke Glass (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Re: The end of the HDB as we know it. ("Steven W. Smith")
  Alt glasses/fly in the starter/holey stoppers/hop removal (Al Korzonas)
  drilled stoppers and lab stuff (Badger Roullett)
  The Clinitest Wars-history in the making or just another cheap scifi thriller? (Jebbly)
  Re: Munich/Maillard/Protein rests (Scott Murman)
  Censorship and celebrity death match ("David R. Burley")
  mineral profile for IPA ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Please Spare Us Louis! ("Marc Battreall")
  re: kolsch ("Michel J. Brown")
  Gluten Free Substitutes ("Brad McMahon")
  Re: Protein rest two-cents ("Charles Rich")
  Re: Drilling a rubber stopper (Spencer W Thomas)
  Doing Al's work for Him ("Brian Wurst")
  Kegs (Alan Monaghan)
  Re: Local Brewers (John Simonetta)
  lactic vs. phosphoric acid ("Bridges, Scott")
  Uh oh, you said the C word... (Mikey Beck)
  Re>New Brewer Questions ("Penn, John")
  For a bunch of homebrewers... (Joe Rolfe)
  support of Steve Alexander (kathy)
  re: New-brewer questions (David Kerr)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:59:24 -0400 From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR) Subject: Pewter What about pewter beer mugs and the lids on beer steins? Doesn't pewter have lead in it? Just curious. Excircising my right to be wrong Paul Haaf haafbrau1atjunodotcom ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:38:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings More old stuff... Mark writes: >regarding the recent comments on stepping up starters and not decanting the >fermented wort off the yeast slurry, what happens if you're doing this under >conditions of constant aeration? > >are you then essentially oxidizing finished beer (alcohol etc) if you leave >everything in the starter vessel? doesn't this hurt the flavor of the big >batch when you pitch the starter culture (if you pitch the whole thing in >high krausen)? Right you are... that's why several posters have pointed out how nasty starters taste. If you follow my suggestion to pour off the spent wort the day before brewing and add a small amount of fresh wort, you can indeed build up the starter with constant aeration, add lots of nasty-tasting yeast nutrients and ferment lager yeasts at warmer than ideal temperatures (although you would want to cool the starter down slowly after that last feeding so you don't shock the yeast when they hit the cool main wort) and not worry about off-flavours. In other words, do whatever you want to maximise yeast health and growth early-on in the start, but treat it like beer after that last feeding. *** Jim writes: >It's really, really simple. Get a 2L PET bottle. In fact, get a bunch >of them. While you're out, buy some replacement valve stems (as in, go >to your nearest Auto Zone, etc., and buy replacement (tire) valve stems). >You can go the expensive route and buy chrome, or you can do what I did >and just buy rubber valve stems. Drill a hole in the top of the PET >bottle caps and push the valve stem through (it should specify a hole >size---drill that size hole). Then you'll want a replacement air-pump >hose so you can hook your CO2 up to the valve stem. A question for you: have you stored beer in these for more than a week or two? Does the rubber of the valve stem (which is probably butyl, certainly not food grade and rather icky-smelling) impart any aroma or flavour to the beer? What if you store it on its side (so the beer actually touches the rubber)? Can this extract any unpleasant or perhaps even dangerous compounds from the rubber? Chemists? *** Randy writes: >!) It is supposed to be a brown ale on the sweet side, but I don't worry >much about sticking true to the style. I care a lot more about it being >enjoyable at this point, which it is not. The ingredients: > 6.6# Northwestern brand Gold Liq. extract > 0.5# Choc. malt > 1.0# Crystal 60L > 0.5# British Pale > 1.0oz Fuggles pellets FWH (just because I had it in the fridge...) > 1.0oz East Kent Golding 60 min. boil > 0.5oz Pearle steeped while wort cooled from boil to 145F in ice bath in sink > 2 tsp Gypsum in mash water > 2 tsp Irish Moss > Wyeast british ale #??? (small smack pack stepped up to 500ml) > >2) Mashed 1.25 gal. water + grain & gypsum from cool up to 160, removed >from heat and covered for 60 min. Sparge 1 gal. at 170F but my sparge >system at this point is a colander in another big pot. (is HSA a problem >here or only after the boil?) Then back into the kettle with the extract >and hops for the boil. 60 min. boil, with IM added half way. Pull off the >stove and added Pearle, sat the kettle in the sink full 'o ice water. >Dropped down to about 145F and poured into carboy through a large funnel >with the drop-in type strainer screen. Pellet hops make this clog and it >is a real PITA. The yeast was pitched to a starter on Friday morning and >pitched Sat evening around 6, for about 36 hours all together. Don't know >the OG of the starter. I used a pre-measured pack of Liq. extract... Lag >time was about 12 hours until it was really going well. Forgot to take an >OG reading. A few comments: 1. The answer to your question is "yes." HSA is a problem both before and after the boil. You should try to minimise oxygen in the whole system until you have cooled wort ready for yeast. 2. 1.25 gallons of water is an awful lot for only 2# of malt. 3 quarts would have been safter, however for this recipe, the chocolate malt is likely to have saved you. The issue is pH and if you use too much water for the malt, the pH ends up too high and you extract unwanted polyphenols (aka tannins). Luckily, dark malts lower pH and you should have been okay. 3. 145F is still a bit too hot to be splashing (and therefore aerating) your wort. DeClerk says 140F is the upper limit, but the de-facto standard for homebrewers is roughly 80F. There is some debate as to how important HSA is, although my experience indicates it is. I am starting to think that HSA on pale beers is simply a shelf-life issue (the beer tastes fresh only 4 weeks in stead of 4 months or more), but that the real damage is on high-melanoidin beers (ones with a lot of Munich and/or Crystal malts -- different melanoidins, but melanoidins nonetheless). This (and quite simply sensory threshold differences) could explain why different brewers have different opinions on HSA. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:35:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com> Subject: Re:Clinitest Brew Ha Ha Greetings, Beerlings! Bitte ein bier! rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) > Has anyone really been harmed by this "C" discussion, I think not. Yes. The HBD itself was harmed by it. At least one vocal and well-known brewing personallity has publically stated that he could/would not post information regarding reducing sugars to the HBD due to the vehemence of the Clinitest debate. I'm sure there are others, but this was enough. Frankly, there will be stories and opinions to either side of the issue. One key fact to keep in mind is that, though we try to keep the HBD as fair and open as possible in regard to content, this is not a democracy. By its sheer size and international nature it cannot be. > What happens, by the way, If I suddenly decide to try "C" and start to post > about it, will my keyboard line be severed? What if someone gets tired > about hearing about our beloved RIMS? Prone to hyperbole, aren't we? Read the response to Mr. Alexander's note and find your own answer. I have no intention of getting a new thread going on this action: we've done what we felt prudent and are done with it. Nuff said by me. See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Fascist karlmarx at hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:40:42 -0400 From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com> Subject: Stopper drilling (was fruit fly in the starter) mark bayer asks: > what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper? do i use a drill > bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?). or is > there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory > things in the rubber? Use a piece of brass or steel tubing. Cut the end square, sharpen it with a stone or sandpaper, and drill slowly with a little glycerine as a lubricant. It will core out a nice rubber plug. > better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or > homebrew shops? Lab supply houses should carry two and even three hole stoppers. Cheers! Rod Schaffter Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:01:06 -0400 From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod) Subject: Re: Sticke Glass "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> asks: What I was wondering was what kind of glassware is used to serve these beers [Alt] in? Especially Sticke,... I do not know about Sticke but Alt is served in straight cylindrical glasses. Gary Nazelrod Silver Spring MD Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:35:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu> Subject: Re: The end of the HDB as we know it. Steve, thanks for your post, I agree wholeheartedly. I've been reading HBD since it came from hpfcmi.fc.hp.com. It's been great, but I can't tolerate having anyone else decide what's appropriate to discuss. I believe that this is just a misguided attempt to help. Please don't filter relevent content, Louis. Feel free to delete advertisements on how I can start my own online adult service tho'. When confronted with the pathetic (virtual) mewling of those who are "tired of reading about it", I suggest that you give 'em the one finger salute (pagedown, that is). Please do proceed with experimentation and reporting on Clinitest (and FOOPs, botulism, mercury, lead, U.P.S., the toxicity of hops in sighthounds, Eisbeer, and especially Alt and Doppelbock). P.S. to any censorship advocates who may be lurking, bite me. :-) P.P.S. I propose we drop it now and discuss beer stuff. Steven W. Smith, Systems Programmer, caring nurturer, not a licensed therapist Glendale Community College. Glendale Az. syssws at gc.maricopa.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:38:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Alt glasses/fly in the starter/holey stoppers/hop removal Phil writes: >With all the wonderful chat about Alts lately I have decided to brew, and >subsequently Label one. What I was wondering was what kind of glassware is >used to serve these beers in? Especially Sticke, for this will be my Sticke >Fingered Frog Alt! My artists minds eye has a frog sticking (with lots of >glue) to a glass of beer. But What kind of Glass???? Also, should i use >belgian pale over American pale ale malt? I can't find a german pale ale >malt. I suppose pils malt wouldn't hurt. Ideas? comments? Altbier glasses are straight-sided, very simple, thin glass cylinders. They are typically between 1/4- and 1/3-liter (1/4 being most common). Since Sticke is only one batch twice a year, I'm prety sure they don't have special glasses for it... the beer only lasts a few days at best. As for Pale Ale malt, surely you don't need that for the Sticke? What I recommend is 5 to 12% DWC Aromatic and use Munich malt for the balance. You can even use 99% Munich and 1% chocolate malt. Yes, I would choose Belgian over American, but German is most authentic. I don't know of any German maltster making a Pale Ale malt. Use Munich... trust me... *** Mark writes: >after about 24 hours of constant air supply and numerous manual swirlings, a >fruit fly found his way into the foam of my actively fermenting starter. >contact time was probably less than an hour or so, he was right on the very >top of the foam, and i scooped him out with a boiled stainless spoon. the >airlock was quickly sanitized and installed. Toss the starter... fruit flys are notorious for clomping around in lactic bacteria and wild yeast when they are not looking for a beer in which to drown. >what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper? do i use a drill >bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?). or is >there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory >things in the rubber? I've had *some* luck with using a *short* length of copper tubing that has been sharpened wit a flat file. Hold the stopper in something other than your hand so that *WHEN* the power drill slips, it doesn't mangle your hand. Go very slow or you will burn the rubber. (Why do I get the feeling I'll be quoted out-of-context on this?) >better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or >homebrew shops? That would be one heck of a progressive HB shop, although maybe it does exist. I would indeed check lab supply places... they are sure to have them. *** Jack writes: >If you simply let the wort settle for a nominal period of time after >the boil, you have the same situation as a mash tun, viz., a ready >made filter bed; this time made of spent hops instead of spent grain. >If you draw the liquid from anywhere near the bottom, it will run >crystal clear after the first cup or two. All you need to do is >provide some means of preventing the end of the pickup tube from >getting clogged, such as an copper scrubber, Sure Screen or Easymasher. In my experience, pellet hops will clog *anything* and *everything*. As far as I know, the method you suggest would work only with whole hops or plugs. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:54:14 -0700 From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> Subject: drilled stoppers and lab stuff Bayer, Mark A (Boeing) asks... > better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or > mebrew shops? I recently got (but have not ordered from) a catalog from Cynmar co. they are a lab supply company. they have a web page http://www.cynmar.com, which you can order from. (no association) They have these cool looking stoppers that have 3-4 holes, with plugs so you can arrange them anyway you want. they also have pretty cheap Flasks and stuff. any one else have suggestions for lab supply companys that doesn't have a $25 dollar minimum order? *************************************************** Brander Roullett aka Badger Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That may be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners." --Jeff Stilson Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:16:05 EDT From: Jebbly at aol.com Subject: The Clinitest Wars-history in the making or just another cheap scifi thriller? Bravo Steve Alexander on your comments in re the censorship of the Clinitest Wars. Although they are not the steamy, torrid posts that keep me rapt in anticipation of the daily HBD download, they are what it is all about. And besides, the Clinitest Wars have given rise to some very witty humor (kudos to Glyn Crossno's Clinitest version of the Roman Downfall) and I, for one, like a little comic relief. In conclusion, I think it is every HBDer's duty to climb aboard and send us their puns, poetry and even notional movie titles using the word "clinitest." Jebbly aka Dave Grommons (Help me! I think I'm a liberal trapped in a conservative's body!) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:28:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: Munich/Maillard/Protein rests Steve A. and Steve J. on malting: > >Because of the action of amino acids in forming melanoidins, I > >understand that starting with high-protein barley for making Munich > >malt is generally beneficial. > > Only a very small > amount of amino acids are necessary to create all the Maillard products in > Munich malt. I have doubts that boosting the protein level 10% would have a > more dramatic effect than reducing the water content bit or boosting the > temps a few degrees. Maybe I'm just a cynical old bastard, but this mumbo-jumbo that maltsters are putting out that higher protein barley is better for malting Vienna and Munich malts sounds like a total snow job to me. I have a very hard time believing that a low quality barley will ever make a high quality malt. They're interested in using higher protein level barley because they cost less, and they can actually charge more because it's a specialty malt. As Steve mentioned, the amount of protein that is used for Maillard reactions is "in the noise", but beyond that, why would having more nitrogen compounds somehow lead to "better" melanoidins? I'll take a nice Moravian Vienna malt myself, I'm pretty sure I can make up for any of it's supposed deficiencies in the brewhouse. -SM- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:00:28 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Censorship and celebrity death match Brewsters: I think we all share Steve Alexander's aversion to censorship if it is ill intended, however, I would hate to try to read the HBD if Pat and Karl did not uphold the basic guideline that "beer only" Subjects should be allowed in the HBD. Also, I think maybe the the fact that Steve was out of the loop on the decision to let Louis behave as an Independent Counsel ( sorry ) and mediate this discussion by actually bringing in some new facts, may have caused Steve to unduly attack Louis and his motives. I believe AlK suggested Louis and I seconded it as a way to stop the ever deteriorating level of the Clinitest discussion to one of attacks of a personal nature. Not what we want in the HBD. AlK and I have been in regular discussion ( as we have been privately with each other for a long time) with Louis in designing the experiments to be carried out. In addition to understanding how or if Clinitest is useful to homebrewers and how its results should be interpreted, it is likely we will gain a better understanding of attenuation. One thing this will NOT be (as one of my correspondents called it with tongue-in-cheek) is a "celebrity death match". That is not the intent, rather a, long overdue, better understanding of a tool gained by focussing directly upon it, looking for its weaknesses and strengths. Louis Bonham and BT will provide that mechanism and give this subject peer review. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:59:41 -0400 From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu> Subject: mineral profile for IPA Is there any sort of agreement on the mineral addtions to soft water for mashing an American IPA ? Rick Pauly Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:00:32 -0400 From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net> Subject: Please Spare Us Louis! Hello All, Louis Bonham writes in HBD2843: >I am please to announce that Dave Burley and Al Korzonas have agreed to a >truce in their often-animated HBD discussions on Clinitest. Under the >terms of the cease-fire, which was brokered by the HBD Steering Committee, >I am working with both of them to come up with an agreed testing >methodology, and then I will be doing the testing independently of them and >writing the results up for my BT column. (If there are any of you who wish >to run the tests in parallel with me so that we have additional data >points, please drop me a line.) Isn't it enough that we have had to put up with seeing this debate go on and on for months? I mean, I do have a page down key for avoid these types of subjects that don't interest me in the HBD (and believe me it has been very busy lately!) but to write an article in BT is pushing the limit don't you think? After all, BT is a fine publication that I look forward to receiving every two months with great anticipation and it is a magazine that we all PAY to receive. The Clinitest debate has been beaten to death in this forum and both the pro's and con's can be found in the HBD archives and on Al Korzonas's web page for those interested in this information. I for one would rather see ANYTHING else printed in BT rather than the results of a Clinitest experiment. I am sure that both Dave and Al have valid, documented data to state their cases and that maybe some of you out there might be apt to use Clinitest, and others may not. But the bottom line is [unfortunately] most of us are wasted from hearing about it and really don't give a damn. I feel that most of us will agree that seeing this in BT will just prolong the agony. However, I for one do indeed appreciate Louis's intervention to put a stop to this silly and timeless debate. Have a hoppy day! ======================= Captain Marc Battreall Backcountry Brewhouse Islamorada, Florida batman at terranova.net captainbrew at hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:34:38 -0700 From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com> Subject: re: kolsch >There's been a lot of discussion about altbiers lately, but what I'd like >to know is what is the preferred fermentation temp for kolsch? Use a ferment temp around 55'F for Koelsch, for best results (using the Wyeast #2575, or 1007). >I'm thinking 68 - 70 F, but now I wonder if kolsch yeast is like alt >yeast, which is able to tolerate much cooler ferm temps. Anyone? Koelsch yeast, and German ale yeast can handle fairly cool temps, but *not* lager beer temp afaik. Use 80% lager malt, and 20% wheat for a real nice light tasting Koelsch -- and mash at around 145~149'F. Then keep the hopping light, like 1~1.5 oz of Saaz in the boil, w/o any late kettle additions. Ferment till completion (~80-85% ADA) then rack and lager at 35~40'F for about a month. Package, and enjoy! Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR} 2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner homemade at spiritone.com http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind" L. Pasteur Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:50:26 +0930 From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: Gluten Free Substitutes While I was at the local homebrew store yesterday, a couple came in with an interesting problem. While he likes his beer, she is almost totally gluten intolerant, and cannot have any beer, even though she likes it. They asked whether there was anyway around it. The only solution we could come up with was using liquid rice malt as a base and adding roast barley and black malt which we _imagine_ would have no gluten left in it, to make a porter/stout type of beer. Dave Miller has a mead ale as well that we recommended as an experiment. Has anyone tried making a gluten-free beer? Any ideas? Brad Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:08:19 -0700 From: "Charles Rich" <riches at halcyon.com> Subject: Re: Protein rest two-cents Greetings Brewers, In HBD 2844, Steve Alexander raises questions re: an over-rested mash. "Frankly if you're not getting a *LOT* of sugar developing 80' at 58.8C you've got a serious mashing problem. Try using your tongue next time - every serious brewer should keep one handy just for such a contingency. Rainbows on the bubbles - ahhh recreational drugs of the '70s - I'm not sure why you would associate this with sugar rather than oils or laminar b-glucans. [Please insert some virtual smileys in the above - I know Charles to be a bright and serious brewer]" Actually, this put a smiley on my face, and I know Steve to be a gracious poster of high-quality detail, so any clash should only yield light. Later in his post Steve is right in suspecting pH (but not re: HSA). I wish I had mentioned it originally. Our water is very soft, calcium (as CaCO3) 11.7 mg/L (ppm), alkalinity (as CaC03) 12.0. I add a mix of salts, but to only 50 mg/L calcium, not enough for pH 5.4, I do it mostly to preserve hopping nuance in the end by minimizing sulphates, carbonate and chloride, but my mash pH (at room temp) is only 5.1 for pale beers. Good for protein breakdown, not so good for saccharification. I compensate with longer mash times (usually 40-minutes at low/mid 150's, then mashout) and still get a small particulate break during my boil. I add Irish moss but overlooked it in this beer. It might have helped but still not saved this one. I'll tell you why, But... I'm not letting that pychedelic swipe at bubble rainbows get past. I've noticed that at around 150F the sheen on the bubbles shows color (Newton rings). Before that, it is dull and the mash liquid is chalky -- and tastes starchy. It may be related to starch solubilization or heat, but above 150F and as the mash progresses the film can cycle through increasingly more changes of red/green then brown/violet rainbows before finally breaking, earlier in the process it doesn't last through so many cycles. It's just one of the milestones in my mashes, a rude index. As Joe Bob Briggs says: Check it out. Regarding the 70's, The 60's were wierder for me. I'm burdened with a recreational paranoia called "What would I do if I were stuck on Gilligan's Island?" It causes me to remember factoids like: beeswax melts at 150F, and note non-numerics like bubble rainbows. After 80 minutes at 138F the resulting wort lacked coaguable protein, not even much foam during the boil and no cold break just solid cloudiness, even after ferment. After four weeks of cold conditioning I tried clearing a sample with gelatin and another with Polyclar. Both helped, but the Polyclar more and it noticeably reduced the objectionable flavor. This was also my first use of a new crop of Wyeast 2042 (Danish) which didn't seem to fall out so I'd thought, "Well, maybe non-flocc'ing yeast had tannin/(phenol?)/protein crap stuck to them and are presenting this flavor. I can select for stronger dropout." I used both, and not together, gelatin first then George Fix's suggested 40g/hL of Polyclar. The result is moderately bright but tastes simpler, kind of commercial. Steve Alexander In HBD 2844: "I guess I find this case to be very very unclear evidence of anything. Kunze cites 45C-50C for primary protein degradation, you're at 58.8C - almost 16F higher. ..." Normally I'm with Kunze, but 45C-50C sounds whacked for optimal *proteolytic* conversion, are you sure he doesn't mean peptiditic degradation? Even if the peak proteolytic temp is 132F, the enzymes survive into higher temps before inevitably breaking down, and work faster too. I doubt they survived long into 138F but they appeared to have done their damage, and to the largest proteins. As George De Piro wrote in HBD 2840: "Wolfgang Kunze writes that too much protein degradation will actually cause more haze potential in the final beer. This is because it is the high-molecular weight protein degradation products that are the most potent haze causing proteins. You therefore don't want to degrade the largest proteins too much." I don't know Steve it kinda walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... Organoleptically yours, Charles Rich (Bothell, Wash) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 03:19:47 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Drilling a rubber stopper > what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper? Get a piece of metal tubing the right diameter. Get it really, really hot. Shove it through the stopper. Oh yeah, ... do it outside! Or you can buy it predrilled. Much easier, and not nearly as stinky. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:05:55 -0500 From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net> Subject: Doing Al's work for Him Although the issue has been mediated to reach a successful agreement, I take issue with the solution. Throughout the whole Clinitest debate, Al had been reiterating his intention to actually try out Clinitest. I know that he has stated this since January, at least. In the course of over 10 months he's set up a webpage on the subject, posted countlessly on the subject and essentially done everything else but actually try out Clinitest...what a waste. With the brokered agreement Al continues his avoidance of personally trying out Clinitest. Al forgets his own words: - ----quote (private communication, 1/13/97)----- It's just frustrating to me when I report a phenomenon and try to convince brewers that it's important and then people who mean well, but are effectively "shooting from the hip" contradict me (sounding very convincing). Had you done your talc experiment before posting your initial disagreement with me, things would have been much better. It's an uphill battle to straighten out all the misinformation that's already in homebrewing. Hopefully my upcoming book will help. - -----end quote------ Al, if you had done your experiments with Clinitest as you had repeatedly told us you would, we wouldn't be in this situation of having the Steering Committee step in and mediate _your_ shooting from the hip. Through what can only be seen as an outright refusal to see for yourself how Clinitest performs and your repeated posting of unsubstantiated criticism you have done a great disservice to those who read HBD. We all would've been spared the irritation of your repeated posts had you just done it. Happy Trails! Brian Wurst brian at netwave.net Lombard, Illinois "Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you for this insanity." -Cicero Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:26:20 -0400 From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at gardnerweb.com> Subject: Kegs I was looking for a site/resource for the kegs and tools needed to maintain the kegs that the big boys use (the one with the large ball in the center). I would like to be able to put our beer into these for others who don't have the soda pop kegging system most home brewers seem to use. vitam cerevisiae venturi saeculi omnia Alan G. Monaghan Gardner Publications, Inc. AlanM at Gardnerweb.com <mailto:AlanM at Gardnerweb.com> http://bullwinkle.gardnerweb.com <http://bullwinkle.gardnerweb.com> Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:34:26 -0400 From: John_Simonetta at ittsheraton.com (John Simonetta) Subject: Re: Local Brewers Stuart, There is a homebrew club in the Worcester area called the WIZARDS. The "W" is for Worcester, but your guess is as good as mine as to what the rest of the acronym stands for. Have you ever heard of the homebrew shop Strange Brew? It is in Marlboro (197 Main Street), which is not far from Worcester. The managers name is Brian, and he is a member of the WIZARDS. I suggest you contact him for more information, the store phone number is (508) 460-5050, his e-mail is: stbrew at tiac.net By the way his shop is comprehensive, and the one time I went I got great service. I only wish his store was closer to me, in Randolph. Good luck! John Simonetta Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:01:53 -0400 From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com> Subject: lactic vs. phosphoric acid > Al K. writes: > >Peter writes: > >>I picked up some lactic acid to use in my brewing. Can someone tell me > - > >>Should I add it to the mash water or the sparge water or both? And what > >>amount per gallon should I add? I am not interested in trying to modify > my > >>water's profile to look like some other areas water profile, but I am > >>willing to use a few simple additives to improve the mash. > >[snip] > > > >Lactic acid is preferable to phosphoric (the other common acid used in > >the mashtun), actually. Both will lower pH, but calcium lactate is > formed > >when you add the former and calcium phosphate when you add the latter. > >Since calcium lactate is more soluble than calcium phosphate, you end > >up with more calcium in your wort (in the boiler and fermenter) when you > use > >lactic acid. This calcium is important for reducing oxalate haze and > >promoting yeast flocculation. > > Al, > This is the first time I've heard this. In fact, I'm sure I've read to > the contrary, although I can't recall where at the moment. If your mash > already has significant (or let's say sufficient) calcium, is it still > advantageous to use lactic acid? The reading I've done recommends > phosphoric acid as some phosphor compound (don't recall which, but I think > this is widely recognized) is beneficial as a yeast nutrient. My water is > high in calcium carbonate, which is the exact reason I need to acidify. > So, I'm already calcium-rich. What does lactic acid buy me? FWIW, I use > phosphoric acid now. > > Scott > > > Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Mikey Beck <stilts121 at yahoo.com> Subject: Uh oh, you said the C word... I guess I'll try my hand at this debate (you people do realize that this is just keeping the Clinitest debate alive, don't you???). I don't think our illustrious Steering Committee is trying to censor anything. It's not like they put on jackboots and brown shirts and marched into Al and Dave's humble abodes and put a gun to their heads, threatening to put a bullet in their brains if they continued to debate the subject of Clinitest. No, the committee used that grand old American ingenuity and found a COMPROMISE that will end the debate or at least give it some new data to argue over. Also, you defenders of the free speech out there need to lighten up. This is not the federal government here. This is the HBD for Pete's sake! cheers, mikey. BSSC/121 _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:47:55 -0400 From: "Penn, John" <PennJE1 at SPACEMSG.JHUAPL.edu> Subject: Re>New Brewer Questions Matt asks a bunch of new-brewer questions... First you may have noticed that there are few absolutes in homebrewing just a lot of general rules of thumbs and depends on... So here's my $0.02 take it for what its worth. 1) Dry yeast starter. The point is to pitch sufficient yeast to reduce lag times and limit the time that bacteria can get a foothold in the beer. Plus underpitching may lead to some off flavors. You can make a starter with dry yeast if you want to but most people probably use dry yeast because it is so convenient and doesn't require a starter. How much to pitch depends on the type of beer, quantity of beer (usually 5 gallons?), and type of yeast. Lager yeasts generally require maybe twice as much yeasties as ale yeasts. So pitch two packets if your lag times aren't to your satisfaction but experiment with yeast starters if you want to. 2) Aerating a plastic fermenter... I don't know about the liquid yeast need more O2 than dry part of your statement. Some yeasts do require more O2 than others and high gravity beers tend to saturate with O2 at a lower concentration than normal gravity beers. For me... I put the plastic bucket on my legs with an empty airlock in place and shake for about a minute to get a nice foam coating on the wort. Seems to work for me. My initial mistakes were to count on pouring the wort into the bucket and counting on enough aeration from just one vigorous pour. If you read previous HBDs theres info on O2 saturation experiments and usually it takes several pours back and forth between two buckets to get sufficient O2 saturation. 3) Sediment settling time... How long the sediment takes to settle depends on many factors. How flocculent is the yeast strain in question? How long have the bottles sat before they were shaken up? If the sediment is just yeast do you care how settled they are? 4) Wet shirt cooling.. Cooling with a wet T-shirt can shave 5-10F off the fermentation temperature and you can add a fan blowing on the shirt to increase cooling. Do you have a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer to determine what the temperature difference is in your area? The cooling effect depends on humidity. If you live in a low humidity area this may not work for you. You gave the impression that it did not work at all but what were your circumstances and how much of an effect were you expecting vs. what you got? 5) siphonless fermenter.. Sorry, don't know about that one. 6) 2 packs of yeast for different batches... There are so many variables from batch to batch like ingredients, gravity, how fresh the yeast are, how the yeast was handled etc. Every fermentation is probably different even with the same yeast. Unless the ingredients from the two different batches were identical and the brewing procedures/ferementation temps were exactly identical I wouldn't worry about different effects from the same yeast. Just make sure you wait until fermentation is complete before bottling. 7) Stirring constantly... In my opinion/experience the key to avoiding most scorching is not to pour the extract into your pot while the pot is sitting on hot coils. Remove the pot from the hot coils, add extract, stir for quite some time because that thick extract takes a while to mix in, then add back to hot coils. You can stir constantly if you want and its good that your lid is only partially on or else you might get excessive DMS. Your newbie questions are always welcome.. We'll all been there and are still learning. In a shameless plug for AlK (no relation or tie in).. I think his Homebrewing book is very thorough and excellent. There are some mistakes in Papazians books which are most peoples first homebrewing books, but Al works hard to elminate those kind of mistakes and often gives both sides of an issue. I know you can find a place to get one from Al's webpage if you can't find it at your local brew store. And, as you may have noticed Al is a frequent and knowledgeable contributor to the HBD. John Penn Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:57:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net> Subject: For a bunch of homebrewers... quite a few of you really take this brewing thing personal. This is more aimed at the newer people to the group but.... a few others here might need the "grounding" also. Remember it IS a hobby (for the better part of group here). Any hobby that can raise my blood pressure is probably not worth it. Seeing a few of the posts here in the past several months makes me believe there are a hell of alot of people taking this far to seriously. Granted opinions will not be the same and tempers could flare but this is a normal problem (??). Just remember the hobby part. As with any issue, what works in one brewery may or may not work in another. Do what works for you. It is your beer, you have very few people to satisfy other than youself. Take everything said in brewing texts and here with a grain of salt until it proves for you in your brewery. And by all means keep it simple. There are parameters you can control in your brewery and many more you can not control. Take care of the important ones, the yeast, sanitation and controlling the process as much as you can. Once you can duplicate the process, try some "new fangled ideas". Making good beer is not really rocket science (ok for anyone making less than a few hundred thousand barrels a year - it is not;). Good luck and great brewing Joe Rolfe Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:19:18 -0500 From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us> Subject: support of Steve Alexander I support Steve's post on HBD about censorship. I recently inquired on HBD about the use of Clinitest to determine the termination of mead fermentations. I got conflicting responses, and then Al K. posted to me privately something that seemed to resolve the issues. I thanked him and suggested he post to HBD, but he responded that he had agreed not to, and felt even a completely different aspect of the discussion as its use with mead, posting would not be appropiate. I think the HBD is poorer for this policy. Cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:32:20 -0400 From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org> Subject: re: New-brewer questions Matt asks about: > Any point in a starter for dry yeast. Or just add another packet? No starter required for most 5 gallon batches, add an extra packer for high-gravity brews. > What's the best way to aerate with a plastic fermenter (can't tip it on > its side and shake)? I've been siphoning through a wire mesh strainer from > boiling kettle to fermenter - enough? Also, I've been using dry yeast which > apparently don't need as much initial O2 as liquid cultures. Will I get in > trouble with low O2 if I switch to liquid yeast and starters. Always aerate, whether using dry or liquid yeast. Running *cooled* wort through a strainer is a good way to aerate, but I'd rock the fermenter for a good 5-10 minutes as well. > Eight hour road trip with bottle conditioned beer - will sediment be > disturbed? Probably, depends on yeast strain, road conditions, and your car's shocks. > Higher OG = warmer fermentation. What's the best way to cool? http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/chiller/chiller.html Or use a brew fridge with a Johnson temp controller (my solution) > Using 2 packs per 5 gallons of the same strain of dry yeast (Munton's > Gold): for an OG = 1.041 pale ale, fermentation slowed gradually, in an OG > = 1.061 stout it dropped off faster, about 24 h earlier. Both started after > about the same 24 h lag time. Differences common? Lots of variables (temp, aeration, fermentability of extract, yeast nutrient content, etc.) regarding fermentation vigor. RDWHAHB > ...Do you all stir during the > whole boil? I keep the lid on partially so there's a layer of steam there. > Any big deal? I stir constantly from 208F until the boil gets going, after which I don't worry about boil-over and stir every 10 minutes or so to assist in hop extraction. Dave Kerr - Needham, MA Return to table of contents
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