---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Pewter (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings (Al Korzonas)
  Re:Clinitest Brew Ha Ha (Some Guy)
  Stopper drilling (was fruit fly in the starter) (Rod Schaffter)
  Re: Sticke Glass (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Re: The end of the HDB as we know it. ("Steven W. Smith")
  Alt glasses/fly in the starter/holey stoppers/hop removal (Al Korzonas)
  drilled stoppers and lab stuff (Badger Roullett)
  The Clinitest Wars-history in the making or just another cheap scifi thriller? (Jebbly)
  Re: Munich/Maillard/Protein rests (Scott Murman)
  Censorship and celebrity death match ("David R. Burley")
  mineral profile for IPA ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Please Spare Us Louis! ("Marc Battreall")
  re: kolsch ("Michel J. Brown")
  Gluten Free Substitutes ("Brad McMahon")
  Re: Protein rest two-cents ("Charles Rich")
  Re: Drilling a rubber stopper (Spencer W Thomas)
  Doing Al's work for Him ("Brian Wurst")
  Kegs (Alan Monaghan)
  Re: Local Brewers (John Simonetta)
  lactic vs. phosphoric acid ("Bridges, Scott")
  Uh oh, you said the C word... (Mikey Beck)
  Re>New Brewer Questions ("Penn, John")
  For a bunch of homebrewers... (Joe Rolfe)
  support of Steve Alexander (kathy)
  re: New-brewer questions (David Kerr)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:59:24 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Pewter

What about pewter beer mugs and the lids on beer steins?  Doesn't pewter
have lead in it? Just curious.

Excircising my right to be wrong
Paul Haaf      haafbrau1atjunodotcom

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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:38:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings

More old stuff... 

Mark writes:
>regarding the recent comments on stepping up starters and not decanting the
>fermented wort off the yeast slurry, what happens if you're doing this under
>conditions of constant aeration?
> 
>are you then essentially oxidizing finished beer (alcohol etc) if you leave
>everything in the starter vessel?  doesn't this hurt the flavor of the big
>batch when you pitch the starter culture (if you pitch the whole thing in
>high krausen)?

Right you are... that's why several posters have pointed out how nasty
starters taste.  If you follow my suggestion to pour off the spent wort
the day before brewing and add a small amount of fresh wort, you can indeed
build up the starter with constant aeration, add lots of nasty-tasting
yeast nutrients and ferment lager yeasts at warmer than ideal temperatures
(although you would want to cool the starter down slowly after that last
feeding so you don't shock the yeast when they hit the cool main wort)
and not worry about off-flavours.  In other words, do whatever you want
to maximise yeast health and growth early-on in the start, but treat it
like beer after that last feeding.

***

Jim writes:
>It's really, really simple.  Get a 2L PET bottle.  In fact, get a bunch
>of them.  While you're out, buy some replacement valve stems (as in, go
>to your nearest Auto Zone, etc., and buy replacement (tire) valve stems).
>You can go the expensive route and buy chrome, or you can do what I did
>and just buy rubber valve stems.  Drill a hole in the top of the PET
>bottle caps and push the valve stem through (it should specify a hole
>size---drill that size hole).  Then you'll want a replacement air-pump
>hose so you can hook your CO2 up to the valve stem.

A question for you: have you stored beer in these for more than a week
or two?  Does the rubber of the valve stem (which is probably butyl,
certainly not food grade and rather icky-smelling) impart any aroma
or flavour to the beer?  What if you store it on its side (so the beer
actually touches the rubber)?  Can this extract any unpleasant or
perhaps even dangerous compounds from the rubber?  Chemists?

***
Randy writes:
>!) It is supposed to be a brown ale on the sweet side, but I don't worry
>much about sticking true to the style. I care a lot more about it being
>enjoyable at this point, which it is not.  The ingredients:
>   6.6# Northwestern brand Gold Liq. extract
>   0.5# Choc. malt
>   1.0# Crystal 60L
>   0.5# British Pale
>   1.0oz Fuggles pellets FWH (just because I had it in the fridge...)
>   1.0oz East Kent Golding 60 min. boil
>   0.5oz Pearle steeped while wort cooled from boil to 145F in ice bath in sink
>   2 tsp Gypsum in mash water
>   2 tsp Irish Moss
>   Wyeast british ale #??? (small smack pack stepped up to 500ml)
> 
>2) Mashed 1.25 gal. water + grain & gypsum from cool up to 160, removed
>from heat and covered for 60 min.  Sparge 1 gal.  at  170F but my sparge
>system at this point is a colander in another big pot. (is HSA a problem
>here or only after the boil?) Then back into the kettle with the extract
>and hops for the boil.  60 min. boil, with IM added half way.  Pull off the
>stove and added Pearle, sat the kettle in the sink full 'o ice water.
>Dropped down to about 145F and poured into carboy through a large funnel
>with the drop-in type strainer screen.  Pellet hops make this clog and it
>is a real PITA.  The yeast was pitched to a starter on Friday morning and
>pitched Sat evening around 6, for about 36 hours all together.  Don't know
>the OG of the starter.  I used a pre-measured pack of Liq. extract...  Lag
>time was about 12 hours until it was really going well. Forgot to take an
>OG reading.

A few comments:

1. The answer to your question is "yes."  HSA is a problem both before
and after the boil.  You should try to minimise oxygen in the whole
system until you have cooled wort ready for yeast.

2. 1.25 gallons of water is an awful lot for only 2# of malt.  3 quarts
would have been safter, however for this recipe, the chocolate malt
is likely to have saved you.  The issue is pH and if you use too much
water for the malt, the pH ends up too high and you extract unwanted
polyphenols (aka tannins).  Luckily, dark malts lower pH and you should
have been okay.

3. 145F is still a bit too hot to be splashing (and therefore aerating)
your wort.  DeClerk says 140F is the upper limit, but the de-facto
standard for homebrewers is roughly 80F.  There is some debate as to
how important HSA is, although my experience indicates it is.  I am
starting to think that HSA on pale beers is simply a shelf-life issue
(the beer tastes fresh only 4 weeks in stead of 4 months or more), but
that the real damage is on high-melanoidin beers (ones with a lot of
Munich and/or Crystal malts -- different melanoidins, but melanoidins
nonetheless).  This (and quite simply sensory threshold differences)
could explain why different brewers have different opinions on HSA.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:35:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Re:Clinitest Brew Ha Ha


Greetings, Beerlings! Bitte ein bier!

rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)

> Has anyone really been harmed by this "C" discussion, I think not.

Yes. The HBD itself was harmed by it. At least one vocal and well-known
brewing personallity has publically stated that he could/would not post
information regarding reducing sugars to the HBD due to the vehemence of
the Clinitest debate. I'm sure there are others, but this was enough. 

Frankly, there will be stories and opinions to either side of the issue. 
One key fact to keep in mind is that, though we try to keep the HBD as 
fair and open as possible in regard to content, this is not a democracy. 
By its sheer size and international nature it cannot be.

> What happens, by the way, If I suddenly decide to try "C" and start to post
> about it, will my keyboard line be severed?  What if someone gets tired
> about hearing about our beloved RIMS?

Prone to hyperbole, aren't we? Read the response to Mr. Alexander's note
and find your own answer. I have no intention of getting a new thread
going on this action: we've done what we felt prudent and are done with
it.  Nuff said by me. 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Fascist           karlmarx at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:40:42 -0400
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: Stopper drilling (was fruit fly in the starter)

mark bayer asks:

> what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  do i use a
 drill
> bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?).
  or is
> there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory
> things in the rubber?  

Use a piece of brass or steel tubing.  Cut the end square, sharpen it
with a stone or sandpaper, and drill slowly with a little glycerine as
a lubricant.  It will core out a nice rubber plug.

> better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply
 or
> homebrew shops?

Lab supply houses should carry two and even three hole stoppers.

Cheers!
Rod Schaffter


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:01:06 -0400
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: Re: Sticke Glass

"Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> asks:
What I was wondering was what kind of glassware is
used to serve these beers [Alt] in? Especially Sticke,...
I do not know about Sticke but Alt is served in straight cylindrical 
glasses.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:35:51 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Re: The end of the HDB as we know it.

  Steve, thanks for your post, I agree wholeheartedly.  I've been reading 
HBD since it came from hpfcmi.fc.hp.com. It's been great, but I can't 
tolerate having anyone else decide what's appropriate to discuss.

  I believe that this is just a misguided attempt to help.  Please don't 
filter relevent content, Louis.  Feel free to delete advertisements on how 
I can start my own online adult service tho'.  

  When confronted with the pathetic (virtual) mewling of those who are 
"tired of reading about it", I suggest that you give 'em the one finger 
salute (pagedown, that is).  Please do proceed with experimentation and 
reporting on Clinitest (and FOOPs, botulism, mercury, lead, U.P.S., the 
toxicity of hops in sighthounds, Eisbeer, and especially Alt and Doppelbock).

P.S. to any censorship advocates who may be lurking, bite me. :-)

P.P.S. I propose we drop it now and discuss beer stuff.

Steven W. Smith, Systems Programmer, caring nurturer, not a licensed therapist
Glendale Community College. Glendale Az.
syssws at gc.maricopa.edu


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:38:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Alt glasses/fly in the starter/holey stoppers/hop removal

Phil writes:
>With all the wonderful chat about Alts lately I have decided to brew, and
>subsequently Label one. What I was wondering was what kind of glassware is
>used to serve these beers in? Especially Sticke, for this will be my Sticke
>Fingered Frog Alt! My artists minds eye has a frog sticking (with lots of
>glue) to a glass of beer. But What kind of Glass???? Also, should i use
>belgian pale over American pale ale malt? I can't find a german pale ale
>malt. I suppose pils malt wouldn't hurt. Ideas? comments?

Altbier glasses are straight-sided, very simple, thin glass cylinders.
They are typically between 1/4- and 1/3-liter (1/4 being most common).
Since Sticke is only one batch twice a year, I'm prety sure they don't have
special glasses for it... the beer only lasts a few days at best.

As for Pale Ale malt, surely you don't need that for the Sticke?  What
I recommend is 5 to 12% DWC Aromatic and use Munich malt for the balance.
You can even use 99% Munich and 1% chocolate malt.  Yes, I would choose
Belgian over American, but German is most authentic.  I don't know of any
German maltster making a Pale Ale malt.  Use Munich... trust me...

***
Mark writes:
>after about 24 hours of constant air supply and numerous manual swirlings, a
>fruit fly found his way into the foam of my actively fermenting starter.
>contact time was probably less than an hour or so, he was right on the very
>top of the foam, and i scooped him out with a boiled stainless spoon.  the
>airlock was quickly sanitized and installed.

Toss the starter... fruit flys are notorious for clomping around in
lactic bacteria and wild yeast when they are not looking for a beer
in which to drown.

>what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  do i use a drill
>bit and just make sure it's quite clean (do i need to sanitize it?).  or is
>there a better method that won't tear up or permanently imbed unsavory
>things in the rubber?  

I've had *some* luck with using a *short* length of copper tubing that
has been sharpened wit a flat file.  Hold the stopper in something other
than your hand so that *WHEN* the power drill slips, it doesn't mangle
your hand.  Go very slow or you will burn the rubber. (Why do I get
the feeling I'll be quoted out-of-context on this?)

>better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or
>homebrew shops?

That would be one heck of a progressive HB shop, although maybe it does
exist.  I would indeed check lab supply places... they are sure to have
them.

***
Jack writes:
>If you simply let the wort settle for a nominal period of time after
>the boil, you have the same situation as a mash tun, viz., a ready
>made filter bed; this time made of spent hops instead of spent grain.
>If you draw the liquid from anywhere near the bottom, it will run
>crystal clear after the first cup or two.  All you need to do is
>provide some means of preventing the end of the pickup tube from
>getting clogged, such as an copper scrubber, Sure Screen or Easymasher.

In my experience, pellet hops will clog *anything* and *everything*.
As far as I know, the method you suggest would work only with whole
hops or plugs.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:54:14 -0700 
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: drilled stoppers and lab stuff

Bayer, Mark A (Boeing) asks...

> better yet, are there dual-drilled stoppers available from lab supply or
> mebrew shops?

I recently got (but have not ordered from) a catalog from Cynmar co.  they
are a lab supply company.  they have a web page http://www.cynmar.com,
which you can order from.  (no association)   They have these cool looking
stoppers that have 3-4 holes, with plugs so you can arrange them anyway you
want.  they also have pretty cheap Flasks and stuff.  

any one else have suggestions for lab supply companys that doesn't have a
$25 dollar minimum order?

***************************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven

 "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to
use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That  may
be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We
aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners."       --Jeff Stilson



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:16:05 EDT
From: Jebbly at aol.com
Subject: The Clinitest Wars-history in the making or just another cheap scifi thriller?

Bravo Steve Alexander on your comments in re the censorship of the Clinitest
Wars.  Although they are not the steamy, torrid posts that keep me rapt in
anticipation of the daily HBD download, they are what it is all about.   

And besides, the Clinitest Wars have given rise to some very witty humor
(kudos to Glyn Crossno's Clinitest version of the Roman Downfall) and I, for
one, like a little comic relief.  

In conclusion, I think it is every HBDer's duty to climb aboard and send us
their puns, poetry and even notional movie titles using the word "clinitest." 

Jebbly
aka Dave Grommons
(Help me! I think I'm a liberal trapped in a conservative's body!)


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:28:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Munich/Maillard/Protein rests

Steve A. and Steve J. on malting:

> >Because of the action of amino acids in forming melanoidins, I
> >understand that starting with high-protein barley for making Munich
> >malt is generally beneficial.
> 
>  Only a very small
> amount of amino acids are necessary to create all the Maillard products in
> Munich malt.  I have doubts that boosting the protein level 10% would have a
> more dramatic effect than reducing the water content bit or boosting the
> temps a few degrees.

Maybe I'm just a cynical old bastard, but this mumbo-jumbo that
maltsters are putting out that higher protein barley is better for
malting Vienna and Munich malts sounds like a total snow job to me.  I
have a very hard time believing that a low quality barley will ever
make a high quality malt.  They're interested in using higher protein
level barley because they cost less, and they can actually charge more
because it's a specialty malt.  As Steve mentioned, the amount of
protein that is used for Maillard reactions is "in the noise", but
beyond that, why would having more nitrogen compounds somehow lead to
"better" melanoidins?  I'll take a nice Moravian Vienna malt myself,
I'm pretty sure I can make up for any of it's supposed deficiencies in
the brewhouse.

 -SM-


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:00:28 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Censorship and celebrity death match

Brewsters:

I think we all share Steve Alexander's aversion  to censorship if it
is ill intended, however, I would hate to try to read the HBD if Pat
and Karl did not uphold the basic guideline that "beer only"
Subjects should be allowed in the HBD.

Also, I think maybe the the fact that Steve was out of the loop
on the decision to let Louis behave as an Independent
Counsel ( sorry ) and mediate this discussion by actually
bringing in some new facts,  may have caused Steve
to unduly attack Louis and his motives.  I believe AlK
suggested Louis and I seconded it as a way to stop the ever
deteriorating level of the Clinitest discussion to one of attacks
of a personal nature. Not what we want in the HBD.

AlK and I have been in regular discussion ( as we have been
privately with each other for a long time) with Louis in designing
the experiments to be carried out. In addition to understanding
how or if Clinitest is useful to homebrewers and how its results
should be interpreted, it is likely we will gain a better
understanding of attenuation.

One thing this will NOT be (as one of my correspondents
called it with tongue-in-cheek) is a "celebrity death match".
That is not the intent, rather a, long overdue, better understanding
of a tool gained by focussing directly upon it, looking for its
weaknesses and strengths. Louis Bonham and BT will provide
that mechanism and give this subject peer review.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:59:41 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: mineral profile for IPA

Is there any sort of agreement on the mineral addtions to soft
water for mashing an American IPA ?

Rick Pauly


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:00:32 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Please Spare Us Louis!


Hello All,

Louis Bonham writes in HBD2843:

>I am please to announce that Dave Burley and Al Korzonas have agreed to a
>truce in their often-animated HBD discussions on Clinitest. Under the
>terms of the cease-fire, which was brokered by the HBD Steering Committee,
>I am working with both of them to come up with an agreed testing
>methodology, and then I will be doing the testing independently of them and
>writing the results up for my BT column.  (If there are any of you who wish
>to run the tests in parallel with me so that we have additional data
>points, please drop me a line.)

Isn't it enough that we have had to put up with seeing this debate go on and
on for months? I mean, I do have a page down key for avoid these types of
subjects that don't interest me in the HBD (and believe me it has been very
busy lately!) but to write an article in BT is pushing the limit don't you
think? After all, BT is a fine publication that I look forward to receiving
every two months with great anticipation and it is a magazine that we all
PAY to receive. The Clinitest debate has been beaten to death in this forum
and both the pro's and con's can be found in the HBD archives and on Al
Korzonas's web page for those interested in this information. I for one
would rather see ANYTHING else printed in BT rather than the results of a
Clinitest experiment. I am sure that both Dave and Al have valid, documented
data to state their cases and that maybe some of you out there might be apt
to use Clinitest, and others may not. But the bottom line is [unfortunately]
most of us are wasted from hearing about it and really don't give a damn. I
feel that most of us will agree that seeing this in BT will just prolong the
agony.

However, I for one do indeed appreciate Louis's intervention to put a stop
to this silly and timeless debate.


Have a hoppy day!



=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:34:38 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: kolsch

>There's been a lot of discussion about altbiers lately, but what I'd 
like
>to know is what is the preferred fermentation temp for kolsch?

Use a ferment temp around 55'F for Koelsch, for best results (using the 
Wyeast #2575, or 1007).

>I'm thinking 68 - 70 F, but now I wonder if kolsch yeast is like alt 
>yeast, which is able to tolerate much cooler ferm temps. Anyone?

Koelsch yeast, and German ale yeast can handle fairly cool temps, but 
*not* lager beer temp afaik. Use 80% lager malt, and 20% wheat for a 
real nice light tasting Koelsch -- and mash at around 145~149'F. Then 
keep the hopping light, like 1~1.5 oz of Saaz in the boil, w/o any late 
kettle additions. Ferment till completion (~80-85% ADA) then rack and 
lager at 35~40'F for about a month. Package, and enjoy!

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur


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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:50:26 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Gluten Free Substitutes

While I was at the local homebrew store yesterday,
a couple came in with an interesting problem.
While he likes his beer, she is almost totally gluten intolerant,
and cannot have any beer, even though she likes it.
They asked whether there was anyway around it.
The only solution we could come up with was
using liquid rice malt as a base and adding roast
barley and black malt which we _imagine_ would have no gluten left in 
it, to make a porter/stout type of beer.
Dave Miller has a mead ale as well that we recommended as an 
experiment.
Has anyone tried making a gluten-free beer? 
Any ideas?

Brad



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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:08:19 -0700
From: "Charles Rich" <riches at halcyon.com>
Subject: Re: Protein rest two-cents

Greetings Brewers,

In HBD 2844, Steve Alexander raises questions re: an over-rested mash.

"Frankly if you're not getting a *LOT* of sugar developing 80' at 58.8C you've
got a serious mashing problem.  Try using your tongue next time - every
serious brewer should keep one handy just for such a contingency.  Rainbows
on the bubbles - ahhh recreational drugs of the '70s - I'm not sure why you
would associate this with sugar rather than oils or laminar b-glucans.

[Please insert some virtual smileys in the above - I know Charles to be a
bright and serious brewer]"

Actually, this put a smiley on my face, and I know Steve to be a gracious
poster of high-quality detail, so any clash should only yield light.

Later in his post Steve is right in suspecting pH (but not re: HSA).  I
wish I had mentioned it originally.  Our water is very soft, calcium (as
CaCO3) 11.7 mg/L (ppm), alkalinity (as CaC03) 12.0.  I add a mix of salts,
but to only 50 mg/L calcium, not enough for pH 5.4, I do it mostly to
preserve hopping nuance in the end by minimizing sulphates, carbonate and
chloride, but my mash pH (at room temp) is only 5.1 for pale beers.  Good
for protein breakdown, not so good for saccharification.  I compensate with
longer mash times (usually 40-minutes at low/mid 150's, then mashout) and
still get a small particulate break during my boil. I add Irish moss but
overlooked it in this beer.  It might have helped but still not saved this
one.  I'll tell you why, But...

I'm not letting that pychedelic swipe at bubble rainbows get past.  I've
noticed that at around 150F the sheen on the bubbles shows color (Newton
rings).  Before that, it is dull and the mash liquid is chalky -- and
tastes starchy.  It may be related to starch solubilization or heat, but
above 150F and as the mash progresses the film can cycle through
increasingly more changes of red/green then brown/violet rainbows before
finally breaking, earlier in the process it doesn't last through so many
cycles.  It's just one of the milestones in my mashes, a rude index.  As
Joe Bob Briggs says: Check it out.  Regarding the 70's,  The 60's were
wierder for me.  I'm burdened with a recreational paranoia called "What
would I do if I were stuck on Gilligan's Island?"   It causes me to
remember factoids like: beeswax melts at 150F, and note non-numerics like
bubble rainbows.

After 80 minutes at 138F the resulting wort lacked coaguable protein, not
even much foam during the boil and no cold break just solid cloudiness,
even after ferment.  After four weeks of cold conditioning I tried clearing
a sample with gelatin and another with Polyclar.  Both helped, but the
Polyclar more and it noticeably reduced the objectionable flavor.  This was
also my first use of a new crop of Wyeast 2042 (Danish) which didn't seem
to fall out so I'd thought, "Well, maybe non-flocc'ing yeast had
tannin/(phenol?)/protein crap stuck to them and are presenting this flavor.
 I can select for stronger dropout."  I  used both, and not together,
gelatin first then George Fix's suggested 40g/hL of Polyclar.  The result
is moderately bright but tastes simpler, kind of commercial.
 
Steve Alexander In HBD 2844:
"I guess I find this case to be very very unclear evidence of anything.
Kunze cites 45C-50C for primary protein degradation, you're at 58.8C -
almost 16F higher. ..."

Normally I'm with Kunze, but 45C-50C sounds whacked for optimal
*proteolytic* conversion, are you sure he doesn't mean peptiditic
degradation?  Even if the peak proteolytic temp is 132F, the enzymes
survive into higher temps before inevitably breaking down, and work faster
too.  I doubt they survived long into 138F but they appeared to have done
their damage, and to the largest proteins. 

As George De Piro wrote in HBD 2840:
"Wolfgang Kunze writes that too much protein degradation will actually
cause more haze potential in the final beer.  This is because it is the
high-molecular weight protein degradation products that are the most potent
haze causing proteins.  You therefore don't want to degrade the largest
proteins too much."

I don't know Steve it kinda walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Organoleptically yours,
Charles Rich (Bothell, Wash)


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Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 03:19:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Drilling a rubber stopper 

> what's the approved method for drilling a rubber stopper?  

Get a piece of metal tubing the right diameter.  Get it really,
really hot.  Shove it through the stopper.

Oh yeah, ... do it outside!

Or you can buy it predrilled.  Much easier, and not nearly as stinky.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:05:55 -0500
From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net>
Subject: Doing Al's work for Him

Although the issue has been mediated to reach a successful agreement, I take
issue with the solution.

Throughout the whole Clinitest debate, Al had been reiterating his intention to
actually try out Clinitest.  I know that he has stated this since January, at
least.  In the course of over 10 months he's set up a webpage on the subject,
posted countlessly on the subject and essentially done everything else but
actually try out Clinitest...what a waste.  With the brokered agreement Al
continues his avoidance of personally trying out Clinitest.

Al forgets his own words:

- ----quote (private communication, 1/13/97)-----
It's just frustrating to me when I report a phenomenon and try to
convince brewers that it's important and then people who mean well,
but are effectively "shooting from the hip" contradict me (sounding
very convincing).  Had you done your talc experiment before posting
your initial disagreement with me, things would have been much better.
It's an uphill battle to straighten out all the misinformation that's
already in homebrewing.  Hopefully my upcoming book will help.
- -----end quote------

Al, if you had done your experiments with Clinitest as you had repeatedly told
us you would, we wouldn't be in this situation of having the Steering Committee
step in and mediate _your_ shooting from the hip.  Through what can only be seen
as an outright refusal to see for yourself how Clinitest performs and your
repeated posting of unsubstantiated criticism you have done a great disservice
to those who read HBD.

We all would've been spared the irritation of your repeated posts had you just
done it.

Happy Trails!
Brian Wurst   brian at netwave.net     Lombard, Illinois
"Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you for
this insanity." -Cicero




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Date: 	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:26:20 -0400 
From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at gardnerweb.com>
Subject: Kegs

I was looking for a site/resource for the kegs and tools needed to
maintain the kegs that the big boys use (the one with the large ball in
the center). I would like to be able to put our beer into these for
others who don't have the soda pop kegging system most home brewers seem
to use.

vitam cerevisiae venturi saeculi omnia 
Alan G. Monaghan
Gardner Publications, Inc.
AlanM at Gardnerweb.com <mailto:AlanM at Gardnerweb.com> 
http://bullwinkle.gardnerweb.com <http://bullwinkle.gardnerweb.com> 




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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:34:26 -0400
From: John_Simonetta at ittsheraton.com (John Simonetta)
Subject: Re: Local Brewers

     Stuart,
     
     There is a homebrew club in the Worcester area called the WIZARDS.  
     The "W" is for Worcester, but your guess is as good as mine as to what 
     the rest of the acronym stands for.
     
     Have you ever heard of the homebrew shop Strange Brew?  It is in 
     Marlboro (197 Main Street), which is not far from Worcester.  The 
     managers name is Brian, and he is a member of the WIZARDS.  I suggest 
     you contact him for more information, the store phone number is (508) 
     460-5050, his e-mail is:  stbrew at tiac.net
     
     By the way his shop is comprehensive, and the one time I went I got 
     great service.  I only wish his store was closer to me, in Randolph.  
     Good luck!
     
     John Simonetta


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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:01:53 -0400 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: lactic vs. phosphoric acid


> Al K. writes:
> >Peter writes:
> >>I picked up some lactic acid to use in my brewing.  Can someone tell me
> -
> >>Should I add it to the mash water or the sparge water or both?  And what
> >>amount per gallon should I add?  I am not interested in trying to modify
> my
> >>water's profile to look like some other areas water profile, but I am
> >>willing to use a few simple additives to improve the mash.
> >[snip]
> >
> >Lactic acid is preferable to phosphoric (the other common acid used in
> >the mashtun), actually.  Both will lower pH, but calcium lactate is
> formed
> >when you add the former and calcium phosphate when you add the latter.
> >Since calcium lactate is more soluble than calcium phosphate, you end
> >up with more calcium in your wort (in the boiler and fermenter) when you
> use 
> >lactic acid.  This calcium is important for reducing oxalate haze and
> >promoting yeast flocculation.
> 
> Al,
> This is the first time I've heard this.  In fact, I'm sure I've read to
> the contrary, although I can't recall where at the moment.  If your mash
> already has significant (or let's say sufficient) calcium, is it still
> advantageous to use lactic acid?  The reading I've done recommends
> phosphoric acid as some phosphor compound (don't recall which, but I think
> this is widely recognized) is beneficial as a yeast nutrient.  My water is
> high in calcium carbonate, which is the exact reason I need to acidify.
> So, I'm already calcium-rich.  What does lactic acid buy me?  FWIW, I use
> phosphoric acid now.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mikey Beck <stilts121 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Uh oh, you said the C word...

I guess I'll try my hand at this debate (you people do realize that
this is just keeping the Clinitest debate alive, don't you???).  

I don't think our illustrious Steering Committee is trying to censor
anything.  It's not like they put on jackboots and brown shirts and
marched into Al and Dave's humble abodes and put a gun to their heads,
threatening to put a bullet in their brains if they continued to
debate the subject of Clinitest.  No, the committee used that grand
old American ingenuity and found a COMPROMISE that will end the debate
or at least give it some new data to argue over.

Also, you defenders of the free speech out there need to lighten up. 
This is not the federal government here.  This is the HBD for Pete's
sake!

cheers,
mikey.
BSSC/121 




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:47:55 -0400 
From: "Penn, John" <PennJE1 at SPACEMSG.JHUAPL.edu>
Subject: Re>New Brewer Questions

Matt asks a bunch of new-brewer questions...
First you may have noticed that there are few absolutes in homebrewing
just a lot of general rules of thumbs and depends on... So here's my
$0.02  take it for what its worth.

1)  Dry yeast starter.  The point is to pitch sufficient yeast to reduce
lag times and limit the time that bacteria can get a foothold in the
beer.  Plus underpitching may lead to some off flavors.  You can make a
starter with dry yeast if you want to but most people probably use dry
yeast because it is so convenient and doesn't require a starter.  How
much to pitch depends on the type of beer, quantity of beer (usually 5
gallons?), and type of yeast.  Lager yeasts generally require maybe
twice as much yeasties as ale yeasts.  So pitch two packets if your lag
times aren't to your satisfaction but experiment with yeast starters if
you want to.

2) Aerating  a plastic fermenter...  I don't know about the liquid yeast
need more O2 than dry part of your statement.  Some yeasts do require
more O2 than others and high gravity beers tend to saturate with O2 at a
lower concentration than normal gravity beers.  For me... I put the
plastic bucket on my legs with an empty airlock in place and shake for
about a minute to get a nice foam coating on the wort.  Seems to work
for me.  My initial mistakes were to count on pouring the wort into the
bucket and counting on enough aeration from just one vigorous pour.  If
you read previous HBDs theres info on O2 saturation experiments and
usually it takes several pours back and forth between two buckets to get
sufficient O2 saturation.

3)  Sediment settling time... How long the sediment takes to settle
depends on many factors.  How flocculent is the yeast strain in
question?  How long have the bottles sat before they were shaken up?  If
the sediment is just yeast do you care how settled they are?  

4)  Wet shirt cooling..   Cooling with a wet T-shirt can shave 5-10F off
the fermentation temperature and you can add a fan blowing on the shirt
to increase cooling.  Do you have a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer to
determine what the temperature difference is in your area?  The cooling
effect depends on humidity.  If you live in a low humidity area this may
not work for you.  You gave the impression that it did not work at all
but what were your circumstances and how much of an effect were you
expecting vs. what you got?

5) siphonless fermenter..   Sorry, don't know about that one.

6) 2 packs of yeast for different batches...  There are so many
variables from batch to batch like ingredients, gravity, how fresh the
yeast are, how the yeast was handled etc.  Every fermentation is
probably different even with the same yeast.  Unless the ingredients
from the two different batches were identical and the brewing
procedures/ferementation temps were exactly identical I wouldn't worry
about different effects from the same yeast.  Just make sure you wait
until fermentation is complete before bottling.

7)  Stirring constantly...  In my opinion/experience the key to avoiding
most scorching is not to pour the extract into your pot while the pot is
sitting on hot coils.  Remove the pot from the hot coils, add extract,
stir for quite some time because that thick extract takes a while to mix
in, then add back to hot coils.  You can stir constantly if you want and
its good that your lid is only partially on or else you might get
excessive DMS.  

Your newbie questions are always welcome.. We'll all been there and are
still learning.  In a shameless plug for AlK (no relation or tie in)..
I think his Homebrewing book is very thorough and excellent.  There are
some mistakes in Papazians books which are most peoples first
homebrewing books, but Al works hard to elminate those kind of mistakes
and often gives both sides of an issue.   I know you can find a place to
get one from Al's webpage if you can't find it at your local brew store.
And, as you may have noticed Al is a frequent and knowledgeable
contributor to the HBD.

John Penn



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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: For a bunch of homebrewers...

quite a few of you really take this brewing thing personal.

This is more aimed at the newer people to the group but....
a few others here might need the "grounding" also.

Remember it IS a hobby (for the better part of group here).
Any hobby that can raise my blood pressure is probably
not worth it.  Seeing a few of the posts here in the past
several months makes me believe there are a hell of alot
of people taking this far to seriously.  Granted opinions
will not be the same and tempers could flare but this
is a normal problem (??). Just remember the hobby part. 

As with any issue, what works in one brewery may or may not work
in another.  Do what works for you.  It is your beer, you have 
very few people to satisfy other than youself.  Take everything
said in brewing texts and here with a grain of salt until
it proves for you in your brewery. And by all means keep it simple.
There are parameters you can control in your brewery and many more you
can not control. Take care of the important ones, the yeast, sanitation
and controlling the process as much as you can. Once you can duplicate
the process, try some "new fangled ideas".  Making good beer is not
really rocket science (ok for anyone making less than a few hundred
thousand barrels a year - it is not;).


 

Good luck and great brewing
Joe Rolfe


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:19:18 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: support of Steve Alexander

I support Steve's post on HBD about censorship.  I recently inquired on
HBD about the use of Clinitest to determine the termination of mead
fermentations.  I got conflicting responses, and then Al K. posted to me
privately something that seemed to resolve the issues.  I thanked him
and suggested he post to HBD, but he responded that he had agreed not
to, and felt even a completely different aspect of the discussion as its
use with mead, posting would not be appropiate.

I think the HBD is poorer for this policy.

Cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:32:20 -0400
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: re: New-brewer questions

 
Matt asks about:
> Any point in a starter for dry yeast.  Or just add another packet?
No starter required for most 5 gallon batches, add an extra packer
for high-gravity brews.

> What's the best way to aerate with a plastic fermenter (can't tip it on
> its side and shake)?  I've been siphoning through a wire mesh strainer from
> boiling kettle to fermenter - enough?  Also, I've been using dry yeast which
> apparently don't need as much initial O2 as liquid cultures.  Will I get in
> trouble with low O2 if I switch to liquid yeast and starters.
Always aerate, whether using dry or liquid yeast.  Running *cooled*
wort through a strainer
is a good way to aerate, but I'd rock the fermenter for a good 5-10
minutes as well.

> Eight hour road trip with bottle conditioned beer - will sediment be
> disturbed?
Probably, depends on yeast strain, road conditions, and your car's
shocks.

> Higher OG = warmer fermentation.  What's the best way to cool?
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/chiller/chiller.html
Or use a brew fridge with a Johnson temp controller (my solution)

> Using 2 packs per 5 gallons of the same strain of dry yeast (Munton's
> Gold):  for an OG = 1.041 pale ale, fermentation slowed gradually, in an OG
> = 1.061 stout it dropped off faster, about 24 h earlier.  Both started after
> about the same 24 h lag time.  Differences common?
Lots of variables (temp, aeration, fermentability of extract, yeast
nutrient content, etc.)
regarding fermentation vigor.  RDWHAHB

> ...Do you all stir during the
> whole boil?  I keep the lid on partially so there's a layer of steam there.
> Any big deal?
I stir constantly from 208F until the boil gets going, after which I
don't worry about boil-over
and stir every 10 minutes or so to assist in hop extraction.

Dave Kerr - Needham, MA


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