---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Perhaps going all grain? (The Greenman)
  Freezer temperature controller (fridge)
  Malt drying (Dan Listermann)
  salvaging yeast (Vachom)
  SS Pots ("Stuart Baunoch")
  cleaning cornie dip tubes (Jeff Renner)
  Henry Weinhard's Amber (Hans_Geittmann)
  Brewing all-grain vs. extract (Tim Anderson)
  source for "prime tabs" ("Tim Martin")
  Distilled Water Yeast Storage (Nathan Kanous)
  RIMS - Pump clogging potential/Manifold (randy.pressley)
  Rust in chest freezer (Robert Arguello)
  ph papers suck (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Source for 10-gal corny kegs? (John Wilkinson)
  Vectored flow (Al Korzonas)
  Music City Brew-Off/Pub Crawl Method (Al Korzonas)
  Music City Brew-Off... cont. (Al Korzonas)
  Receptacle tester post (fridge)
  amber ale ("Bryan L. Gros")
  sanitizing the HERMS setup (Peter.Perez)
  all-grain vs. extract (Al Korzonas)
  FWH, another opinion (Al Korzonas)
  Toasty Alts, Dunkels... (Al Korzonas)
  Hopped vs unhopped braggot (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Classic American Pilsner (Jeff Renner)
  CO2 quick disconnects (Peter.Perez)
  Canning Wort for Starters ("Andrew T. Lynch")
  Re: Home brew Digest #2858 (October 24, 1998) (curt j tuhy)
  Time on  my side (Jack Phillips)
  re:brown malt (ThomasM923)
  Kolsch yeast (Randy Ricchi)
  Re:Dunkel (ThomasM923)
  hbd # 2859, 10/26/98 ("Fred M. Scheer")


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:36:04 -0700
From: The Greenman <greenman at sdc.org>
Subject: Perhaps going all grain?

Hey folks, especially you All-grainers,

I haven't been brewing long, but the idea of All-graining is really
tapping at my brain.  All of the recent posts by very happy All-grainers
has gotten me thinking about going all grain.

I have the distinct advantage of having a kitchen entirely devoted to 
brewing.  I eat with my fiance, and we do all the cooking at her place
so my kitchen is crammed with brewing supplies (i.e. pots, bottles,
fermenters, bottles, specialty grains, extracts, culturing equipment
etc)  My fridge is entirely devoted to lagering

However, I do have a problem.  I live in an appartment with an electric
stove.  I make good beer with it (since I made a buffer to go between
the pot and the element)  However, it has two main settings-off and burn
the dial is useless.

So, how should I go about getting into all-grain?  Are there any indoor
type burners I can buy/make?  I can't brew outside so outdoor burners
are out of the question.  Are there any other All-grainers out there who
have my problem?

I'm a college student, so moving to a house is out of the question, and
I want to get closer to following the German purity law, so there has to
be a way.

Any advice or suggestions would be great.

Greenman


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:38:27 -0500
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Freezer temperature controller

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#2859, Mark Vernon asked for temperature 
controller recommendations for his new chest freezer.

 I prefer the Ranco ETC111000 digital controller. I posted 
a lengthy description to the HBD in June of 1997 that 
covers the specs in detail. Briefly, the controller is similar 
to the Johnson A19 in price, size and shape, but has an 
LCD readout of the sensed temperature. All setpoint, 
mode and differential settings are easily done via a 
touchpad on the display. Settings are easily done without 
the inaccuracy or trial and error common the the 
Johnson. The Ranco controller will need to be wired into a 
short extension cord for brewing use but it is easy to do 
by following the directions that come with the controller. 

 Several Ranco controllers are available through WW 
Grainger and many refrigeration and appliance parts 
outlets. There is even a model that outputs a 0-10v signal 
that could be incorporated into a RIMS control system. 
Prices at WW Grainger range from just under $50 to 
about $70 for the various models. You can see the a 
picture of the controller at http://www.grainger.com 
The Grainger part# is 3ZP77.

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:20:29 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Malt drying

<Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: Drying malt?

        I am looking forward to doing some home malting.  I have found
some good information in the archives on doing so.  I do have one 
question
though, how does one dry the grains after malting them?  Some posts made
references to using their oven?  How does on use their oven to dry the
grains?  What type of container do I put them in?  Does there need to be
air flow?  I would greatly appreciate any help.>

I air dry my malt and maybe kiln it later in a gas oven.  To air dry I
place a screen box on two box fans and form cardboard around the sides. 

The box fans suck air down through the malt.  It takes about two days to
dry.

I have also arranged a milk house space heater to blow air under the 
screen
box for a warmer drying.  


I now have some buckwheat to dry today.  For some reason its gremination
rate was widely variable.  


Dan Listermann       dan at listermann.com

Jon Sandlin
sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu

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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:24:55 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: salvaging yeast

In #2858 Nick asks for advice on how to salvage an XL Wyeast "pitchable"
packet he popped but couldn't use when his brewing plans went awry. 
Nick, stick the packet in the fridge, BUT don't just leave it there
until you reschedule your brew session.  Even though Wyeast claims that
their big packets are pitchable as is, you'll still do much better to
make a starter from it.  An actively fermenting 1000ml starter made from
a regular size Wyeast packet will contain more yeast cells than the XL
packet.  Why not really pump up your yeast cell count (and shorten lag
times) by pitching an actively fermenting starter made from your XL
packet.  If you're going to brew this Saturday, for instance, take the
packet out of the fridge on Thursday before you head for work to give
the yeast cells a chance to wake up, then make the starter that evening.
 By Saturday morning, your starter should be going top speed.

Happy brewing,

Mike
New Orleans, LA 


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:40:58 -0500
From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
Subject: SS Pots

Thanks for all the feedback on SS pots.   I will start saving the money to
buy one that have the valve and thermomentor (spelling???) on it.   Thanks.
For now I will have to use the one I got from Ames.

Another question in this regard.  Where does the slight metal taste come
from afterwards???
>From the kettle or another area...????


Stuart Baunoch
sbaunoch at homeruns.com
Inventory Control Specialist
Hannafords Homeruns
Sturbridge, Massachusettes




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:22:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: cleaning cornie dip tubes

George DePiro wrote:

>     You don't mention cleaning out the inside of your dip tube or
>     valves.  I use a .22 caliber rifle cleaner to clean the insides of my
>     dip tubes.  You would be amazed at the amount of junk inside of them.

I've found that while the .22 cal. brush works OK, a much more thorough way
is to use the .22 bullet itself.  Just line up the dip tube *exactly* with
the barrel of a .22 rifle (I suppose a pistol would work), clamp in place
and fire off a round.    Be sure of what's down range (i.e., no 240v GFIs,
large glass carboys, CO2 tank necks or fruit flies).  At 1200 fps, that
little slug will scour out all residual beer sludge!  Of course, there may
be a bit of deposited lead, but it'll be sterile!

I considered waiting util next April to post this, but it wouldn't have
been timely then, and, what the hell, HBD is a little slow now.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:00:09 -0700
From: Hans_Geittmann at notes.seagate.com
Subject: Henry Weinhard's Amber

Someone asked about duplicating Weinhardt's amber ale...

Ever see the Simpson's episode where Homer and Barney go on the Duff
Brewery tour and one pipe comes down from the ceiling and splits into 3
tanks- "Duff", "Duff Dry", and "Duff Dark" (or something like that)?  My
point is that Henry's is a lot like that- several different "styles" in
different colored bottles that all taste pretty much the same.  Henry's was
introduced to the SF Bay Area while I was in college there- you could get a
12 pack of bottles of Green (Ale), Blue (Dark), or Red (Red Ale) for $3.50
(yes, we referred to the beer by bottle color, not beer style).  The price
slowly went up, but one summer during grad school they had a coupon
promotion where you could get a 12 pack at Safeway for $5.50, mail the
rebate coupon in and get $4 back.

Anyway, recipe for 5 gallons of Weinhard's <insert style here>:
4.75 gallons of Budmillcoors
 .25 gallons of Boston Brewing Company's <insert style here>

As far as "Amber" goes as a style- it seems like brewpubs brew this as
their beer for the masses- broad appeal, nothing too adventurous
flavor-wise, that kind of thing.  I'd say it's usually somewhere between a
pale and brown ale in color, not too hoppy, not too malty- pretty middle of
the road flavor, but it varies from brewer to brewer.
- --
Hans Geittmann
Seagate Technology
Hans_Geittmann at notes.seagate.com




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:36:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brewing all-grain vs. extract

Perspective of an unapologetic extract brewer:  I've been making
extract beers at the rate of about one 5 gallon batch a month for nine
years.  If I had fewer demands on my time, I would definitely give
all-grain a whirl.  But my life doesn't seem to work that way, and I
doubt I'll even give it a try before retirement.

To others who have limited brewing time available, but want to
increase the fun and variety, as well as make better beer, there are
many variables to play with.

First, brewing from a kit is a great way to do a first batch.  It's
easy to make an OK beer this way and get past the first-timer fear. 
After that, forget the kit.  There is plenty of entertainment to be
had juggling hopping schedules, different methods of chilling, a wide
variety of adjunct grains, dry hopping, conditioning in bottles vs
kegs, blowoff or not, fining, aeration, when and how to do yeast
starters, matching yeast, hops, grains, ferment temp.  It goes on and
on.  Lately, my favorite toy is a one gallon new-oak barrel. You can
start with the same "bucket o' light" and make a bazillion different
beers.  And make every batch a new experience.

All-grain someday for sure.  But for now, I can have a lot of fun and
brew decent beer in about three hours.  Including mopping the kitchen
floor.

tim

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:35:26 -0500
From: "Tim Martin" <TimMartin at southwest.cc.nc.us>
Subject: source for "prime tabs"

Hey Neighbors,
Will someone please direct me to a mail order source for "prime tabs". 
These were mentioned four or five months ago but nobody mentioned where to 
get them. They sound perfect for my occasional split keg/bottle situation.

Thanks,
Tim Martin
Cullowhee, NC


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:29:37 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Distilled Water Yeast Storage

Dave Whitman says:

>The effect is rather dramatic.  For Wyeast 1968, the number of dead cells
>was 8 times higher in the pure water sample than in 2% buffer!  T-tests
>indicate that the increase in viability in the buffer relative to r/o water
>is statistically significant for both yeast strains.

My question:
Dave, where do I easily find Potassium di-hydrogen orthophosphate (KH2PO4)?
nathan


Nathan in Madison, WI


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:49:02 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: RIMS - Pump clogging potential/Manifold

I'm getting ready modify my existing system to support RIMS.
My concern is wear and tear on the pump when small amounts
of grains go thru it.  I was thinking about putting in a Y strainer or
a trap between the pump inlet and mash tun.  Am I worrying for nothing?

Also concerning the copper manifold.  Seems like the H shaped
manifold using 1/2" copper pipe and tees is the most popular
design.  My question here is instead of soldering the copper
together could I just use flare fittings.  This could save me some
money on soldering equipment.


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:57:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: Rust in chest freezer

After only a couple years of service as a fermenting cooler, my relatively
new chest freezer is rusting. The rust is eating at the interior walls and
floor of the unit, especially at seam areas. There is a LOT of moisture
present in the freezer at all times so I suppose that I shouldn't be too
surprised at this development.

Can someone suggest a treatment? I suspect that it will involve some sanding
of the rusted areas then a coat of some sort of paint?  Suggestions as to
what I should use to cover the interior surfaces would be greatly appreciated.

- --------------------------------------
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny Kegs for sale - www.calweb.com/~robertac/keg.htm
Promash Brewing Software - www.calweb.com/~robertac/promash



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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:10:17 -0500
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: ph papers suck

collective homebrew conscience:

jeremy b wrote:

> We have this type of pH paper in my lab and they suck! I forget> the
brand, but they DO NOT agree with our pH meter. Several years> back I
ordered one of every brand of pH paper in one of our> supply catalogs
(Fisher or VWR I believe) that covered the brewing> range. I found pHydrion
brand to be the best in terms of accuracy.

what would be helpful is if you have the calibration data, jeremy.  then we
would all know how much and in which direction our ph papers suck.

brew hard,

mark bayer



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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 12:14:18 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Source for 10-gal corny kegs?

Tidmarsh Major asked about a source for 10 gallon Cornelius type kegs.

I got my 10 gallon Cornelius type keg from Amber Waves Brewing Supplies in
Decatur, Georgia.  Their address was 2808 LaVista Road, Decatur, GA 30033
and the telephone was (404) 315-1100.  I don't know if they are still around
or if they have more of the kegs, but you could try their number.  I got
mine almost three years ago (12/1/95)

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:36:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Vectored flow

John writes:
>Then you need to consider how much area you need to cover.  A manifold
>pipe can adequately lauter an area of 2-3 inches to either side, which
>means that you can space your manifold pipes 4-6 inches apart to achieve
>good coverage of the lauter tun bottom.

 ...and later:

>If you use a manifold or Easymasher (tm) type setup, deeper is better
>because as you approach the drain, the flow becomes vectored toward the
>drain resulting in more flow thru the grain around the drain, and
>less(slower)  flow at areas away from the drain

I'm eagerly awaiting your experimental data although if you have references
(not including your own article ;^) that corroborate these assertions,
could you poste them now, so we can dig them up?

I don't disagree with either, actually, but I've always questioned whether
these differences (which look big in theory) are actually big enough to
cause a noticeable difference in yield.  I did a very preliminary test
using various lauter tun designs (see my article in the Great Grains
Special Issue of Zymurgy)... just to see if there were *radical* differences
in yield... and found that the differences appear to be relatively small.

I'm looking forward to seeing the report.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:07:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Music City Brew-Off/Pub Crawl Method

Just a quick note (unintentional pun) to let y'all know about my experience
at this last weekend's Music City Brew-Off in Nashville, TN.  The competition
was extremely well-run.  Judging was at Bosco's Brewpub (home of one
of the world's few Steinbiers) which was virtually donated to the club
for the duration of the competition.  The pre-competition pot-luck dinner
on Friday, post-competition pub crawl on Saturday night (which included
a visit to Blackstone's where Dave Miller is head brewer) and brunch
Sunday morning were also outstanding.  Both beer and judging were of the
highest quality.  I urge everyone to try to enter and attend next year
if you can.

By the way: the design of the pub crawl was very good.  Since the pubs
were slightly spread out, a van ran multiple trips from pub-to-pub
throughout the night.  How it worked was, from 5 to 7pm it ran from pub
A to B.  From 7 to 9pm, it ran from B to C,D and E.  From 9 to 11 it
ran from C,D and E back to A.  This way, a particular pub was not swamped
with 50 crawlers... they came in smaller waves.  A map helped get crawlers
from C to D to E on foot.  Perhaps this might come to be known as the
"Music City Method?"

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:28:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Music City Brew-Off... cont.

I got to thinkin' `bout my post and figured I should mention
how friendly all the folks were in Nashville... not only the
local HBers, but also those who made the trip from Memphis and
Knoxville, as well as Alabama and Georgia.  I believe there
may have been a few HBers from Kentucky too.

Al.


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:45:43 -0500
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Receptacle tester post

Greetings folks,

 After reading my receptacle tester post this morning I 
thought I sounded like I was picking on Jeremy. That 
wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I 
used Jeremy's name to identify the source of information I 
was referring to in my post.  

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:03:35 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: amber ale

kieth writes:
>     I've been sharing a few HBs with a guy at work and the HB bug has
>bitten him ;-).  He came to me with a request to help him brew a Henry
>Weinhardt Amber Ale.  This is a good thing... but, ah, I don't know
>anything about the beer.  I have never had it.  I'll try and hunt it down this
>weekend though.  Is an Amber Ale a true style that I just have never heard
>of? ;-P  

well, the AHA says it is a style, and there was a good article in Brewing
Techniques (Vol 3 No. 6) which argues for recognition of American
Amber Ale as a style.  Other people would argue that AAA is 
simply a subset of American Pale Ale. Good commercial 
examples include Red Tail ale and Red Nectar.

Anyway, a good amber is generally a deep amber/copper ale which
is balanced with malt and hops. So get your favorite pale ale recipe,
use half the hops, and double the crystal malt. Use maybe a pound of
crystal malt (dark, like 80 L) to get some sweetness in five gallons.
Use maybe 25IBUs of hops. 

>BTW: There is a new brewer amongst us.  Her name is Nicole Diane
>Christian.  

Congratulations

Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Check out the Draught Board website:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:58:05 -0500
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: sanitizing the HERMS setup



I have a question for the HERMS users.  How do you sanitize the inside of
your copper coil heat exchanger before you start pumping wort thru it?

Thanks,
Pete




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:12:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: all-grain vs. extract

Alan asks for opinions on all-grain vs. extract.

I agree 100% that the difference between the time to do partial-mash
and all-grain is minimal.  If you are already doing partial-mash, time
shouldn't be an excuse to not try all-grain.

I would like to respectfully disagree regarding the quality of the
finished beer.  I believe the *main* reason that all-grain batches
are often superior to all-grain is stale extract.  Old malt will
make much better beer than old malt extract.  Another reason may be
that generally-speaking, all-grain brewers are simply more experienced
than extract brewers.  I'll bet that if an experienced all-grainer
brewed, say, an American Amber Ale from fresh extract, the result would
probably be as good as a similar brew from all-grain.

Now, I'm not saying that there's no reason to do all-grain... 90% of the
brewing I do now is all-grain, but primarily because all-grain:

1. allows me to make wort from 100% Munich malt,
2. allows me to use oats, raw barley, unmalted wheat, rye, rye malt, etc.,
3. is almost required for making styles like Wit, Koelsch, German Pils,
   Duesseldorfer Altbier, Munchner Dunkel, Roggen, etc.,
4. is more challenging when making a 1.100 OG Barleywine or Imperial Stout, and
5. is fun.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:55:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: FWH, another opinion

Jeremy writes:
>I started first wort hopping many of my beers about a year ago, and I am
>very pleased with the results. First Wort hopping (FWH) is just as it
>sounds; you add your bittering hops directly to the first  runnings of the
>wort. The acidity of the wort facilitates extraction of the alpha acids in
>the hop.

Have you read this somewhere or are you speculating?  I believe this
shouldn't be correct.  As the acidity of the wort goes up, the utilisation
goes down and the acidity of the "first wort" is actually lower than that
of the wort later in the boil.  If it's true that acidity has something
to do with the utilisation, then I'd be interested to read about it...
however, I think we all need to be careful to not make any rash assumptions
and introduce new incorrect concepts into our collective brewing knowledge
base.

> The increased extraction of the alpha acids is compensated by the
>fact that some of the bitterness will be lost in the hot break. The current
>theory is that you do not need to increase the amount of hops when FW
>hopping.

The article sited by Dr. Fix was in Brauwelt International.  It said
that the aroma hops (those set aside for the late addition) were added
into the kettle during the taking of the runnings.  The increased bitterness
of these hops would be due to the fact that they were now boiled 60 (or
more) minutes rather than the 5 (or less) minutes they were boiled in the
original recipe.  It is true, however, that you would not get as much
bitterness from FWH as you would from a similar 60 minute (normal) addition.
*This* is where the *speculation* that the reason for this is that some
of the bitterness is lost in the hot break (I originated this as the
possible reason for the difference in bitterness).  Typically, in commercial
operations, the bittering hops are not added until 10 minutes into the boil
(except for a small amount sometimes added to minimise the risk of boilover),
until after the hot break has formed.  My own experiment clearly showed a
lower utilisation for hops added before the hot break, relative to those
added after the break.

As for increasing or decreasing the hops, in the experiment Dr. Fix sited,
they did not compensate for the fact that they would get more bitterness
from moving the aroma addition to FWH.  I do not understand why you would
even suggest that the hops might be increased.  Nobody, to my knowledge,
has suggested they should be.
 
>Great, so why FWH? I have found that I get a cleaner, sharper bitterness
>when I FWH my  German Ales, and Lagers. The bitterness is not "Muddled". An
>interesting side effect of FWH is that there is also an increased
>perception of hops in both the flavor and the aroma. I had been led to
>believe that most the flavor and aroma compounds are volatile, and will
>dissipate during a long boil; but apparently this is not always the case.
>FWH is great for Pilsners, Octoberfests, Kolsch and Alts, but I have yet to
>try it in an English or American style beer.  From what I have read, FWH
>should only be done with noble type hops (i.e. Spalt, Saaz)

On the contrary, in my experiment (which, admittedly was done with a very
large amount of FWH) I found a muddled bitterness obscured by excessive hop
flavour.  I certainly would not have called the bitterness "cleaner" or
"sharper."  I found that there was virtually no hop aroma contributed and
that the FWH added primarily bitterness and hop flavour.  I would STRONGLY
discourage brewers from using FWH or any hopping later than T-60 minutes
in Altbiers because neither hop flavour nor aroma are typically found in
the non-Sticke version of this style.  My experiment, was done with Czech
Saaz, incidentally.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:26:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Toasty Alts, Dunkels...

Dave writes:
>That said, there is ongoing discussions whether the state of continental
>munich malts is as it once was (George Fix and Scott Bickham have both
>commmented on this) and the possibility that home production may be an
>excellent source for the depth of taosty flavor that is found in the
>best alts, dunkles, fests, and bocks.  Be creative.  But don't expect to
>make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Someone wrote me regarding this offline and I'd like to comment on it.
I believe that while there might be some toasty character from Munich
malts, the primary character that Munich malts have is from melanoidins.
I can appreciate the difficulty in expressing the character imparted
by melanoidins, so I don't fault Dave for choosing the word "toasty"
although since at least one other person was stunned by this statement,
I thought I might try to help sort it out.  The best way, in my opinion,
to learn how melanoidins contribute to beer is to compare a beer like
Spaten Oktoberfest with a beer like Beck's Dark.  If you can't get
Spaten, try Ayinger Oktober Fest-Maerzen or Paulaner Oktoberfest.
If you get to visit Germany, compare beers like Spaten Dunkel or
Augustiner Dunkel to Beck's Dark.  These are made with even more melanoidins.
You may have some trouble finding Beck's Dark, however... no kidding.

I wouldn't choose the word "toasty" to characterise this difference,
although some might... I don't know... I'm just trying to help clarify
a possible point of confusion.  Really, the best way is to compare
these beers.  You can then call it whatever you think it should be called.
I, personally, call it "melanoidin aroma" or "melanoidin flavour."

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:23:51 -0500
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Hopped vs unhopped braggot

I never received a resonse to my braggot question, so I'm reposting. 
What's a hopped braggot taste like?  Does it tast more like a strong ale?
 I know an unhopped braggot is a little sweet with no bitterness at all.
Mine second batch of braggot is fermenting now.  It's unhopped, and I
used a 1.4 lb Alexander's dark malt kicker, 3.3 lb Munton's Wheat malt
extract, and roughly 5.5 lbs (60 fl oz) of unprocessed wildflower honey. 
My guess is I can always dry hop if I want to.  Any comments?

Brew long and prosper,
Paul Haaf      haafbrau1atjunodotcom

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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:04:07 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Classic American Pilsner

Last week (I've been on vacation),  William Frazier
<billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> wrote;

>I really believe
>these American beers produced 30 to 40 yrs ago were pretty good
>brews with a lot more flavor than todays versions.
>
>I'm looking for an all-grain recipe that might come close to the
>Pabst brew of the past. In particular the grain bill, hop varities
>and amounts (please indicate IBU calculation method or give HBUs)
>and mash temperatures.

Lots of brewers agree with you, Bill.  I've chosen to lump together both
pre- and post-prohibition pilsners under the name Classic American Pilsner
(CAP), and that name has caught on pretty well.  It has been accepted as a
style for competitions by AHA and BJCP, as well as MCAB, and entries have
done very well.  I took a Best of Show last year at the Michigan State
Fair.  See below for more details.

and Peter.Perez at smed.com wrote:

I am also looking to locate some CAP and Pre-pro lager recipes.  Does
anyone know of a good source of quality recipes on the web?  Or anywhere
else for that matter?

See my article in Brewing Techniques:

"Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected Style" by
Jeff Renner
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

and two previous ones that inspired me:

"The Bushwick Pilsners:   A Look at Hoppier Days "  by Ben Jankowski
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html

"Explorations in Pre-Prohibition American Lagers"  by George J. Fix
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html.

Zymurgy did a cover story maybe 1-1/2 years ago.

While the beer I made and described in the article was great, I've made
some refinements for my standard brew.  Instead of flaked maize (which is
easier and still works fine), I use coarse corn meal and do a cereal mash
(mash the corn with 30% malt for 15 minutes at 153F, then boil 20-40
minutes and add to main mash that has been resting no more than 20 minutes
at 122 - this should bring it to 140F, rest here 20-30 minutes, then raise
to 158, rest 20-30 minutes, then mash off).  With the cerreal mash, I leave
out the Munich malt, feeling the melanoidin production of the cereal boil
increases the maltiness.  I also use first wort hopping (see recent posts
for details) and aim for mid to upper 30's IBU rather than the 25 IBU
original.  I think that yeast selection is not critical.

This is a great style and I encourage both of you and other brewers to try
it.  I continue to get email at least once a month from people who've tried
it and love it.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:56:57 -0500
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: CO2 quick disconnects



Where is a good place to get some quick disconnects for my CO2 setup?  I
want to use these so that I can switch between my CPBF, keg-o-rator faucet,
picnic tap, carbonator cap, etc.

Has anyone installed a dial thermometer on their Gott mash tun?  Where did
ya get the therm from and how did you install it?

Thanks,
Pete




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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:14:53 -0800
From: "Andrew T. Lynch" <drew at surefirev.com>
Subject: Canning Wort for Starters


 Is there any reason not to can wort for use in yeast starters?

 It is a small but annoying chore to boil up DME with hops, and then
chill it for starters.  I step my starters twice, so I do this two
times per batch.

 As I was setting up my recipe for the weekends brew (an ESB), I
realized that it would be much easier to increase the recipe by a half
gallon or so, take the excess as I fill the fermenters, and boiling
bath can it in quart jars.  Then, to make a starter, sanitize the jar
of wort and the starter flask, pop in the yeast and the wort. No
boiling, no chilling, less work.

- -- 
Andrew T. Lynch, Chief Zymurgist, SureFire Verification (408)374-4100 x301


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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:14:51 -0600
From: hophead2 at juno.com (curt j tuhy)
Subject: Re: Home brew Digest #2858 (October 24, 1998)

The Wyeast in its foil package is ok for storage for at least 6 months
after it has been activated, all you need to do is keep it in a cool
place and about 2-4 days before you are ready to brew you can make a
starter slurry for use in that brew. (I always keep my wyeast for many
brews by keeping it in a STERILIZED zip lock bag in the refrigerator and
i have kept it for a full year and it worked fine when used for a
starter) 

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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 98 16:05:00 -0800
From: Jack Phillips <jphillip at FUTUREX.COM>
Subject: Time on  my side


Musings on the benefits of having an extra hour in  a day. Decided that   
Sunday would be a great day to brew, so set off to Charley's to harvest   
some Scottish Ale yeast, then on to the Wine Smith to pick up a few   
supplies such as malt and hops. Sunday morning arrived with temperatures   
in the high forties and a few clouds in an otherwise blue sky. As I   
hadn't set the clock back when I went to bed I felt that the time could   
be used to my advantage to actually complete a fall/winter beer before   
darkness falls. Started the Mash water, ground the grain and brewed a pot   
of coffee (needed to keep those eyes open on a Sunday morning. At 8:30 AM   
everything was going fine grain was in the mashtun, mash-water was   
approaching the strike water temperature. As I was using my newly   
purchased mashtun I was not aware of some of the finer details associated   
with it. Added sufficient water to cover the false bottom (2.5 gallons),   
added approximately half the grain to the mashtun, mixed with the   
existing water then added another measure of water followed by the second   
half of the grist. I knew that the mash appeared to have an over   
abundance of water, but I had calculated and re-calculated the water   
figures and new I had the right amount. At this point I should probably   
mention that I was attempting to brew Charley's Two Tub Russian. Still   
not a problem 37.5 # of grain, 47 quarts of water(used approximately 40%   
of the total capacity of the mashtun), mash for two hours at 155(F. 10:40   
AM now the fun begins opened the spigot and waited for the fresh wort to   
run forth..(nothing) added sparge water to the underside of the false   
bottom, nothing, added more water to the mash, nothing (turning into a   
long day) stirred the mash to the bottom of the tun hoping to unplug the   
false bottom, still nothing. Finally got my old mashtun out, installed   
the old  Phils phalse bottom and transferred the grain via large pitcher   
to the old mashtun. Filled the old tun up to the top with the mashed   
grains and hot wort. Extracted the wort and sparged to clear the grains.   
Well maybe a little to much sparging as I ended up with approximately   
13.8 gallons of wort into the boiler and half of the grain was still in   
the mashtun. Refired the HLT and brought the water back up to sparge   
water temperature. Added 3 more gallons of water to the mash and let   
steep for an additional 15 minutes to raise the mash temperature. Removed   
about half of the grain bed in the old mashtun, and dumped the rest of   
the mash from the new tun into the old tun for lautering. Didn't really   
sparge this portion, I just extracted what liquid remained, which was   
nearly 4.5 gallons of wort. Now what to do ? I use a Half barrel keg to   
boil and at 13.5 gallons you couldn't get any more in to it without a   
major boil over. Fortunately being the proud owner of two Sanke kegs I   
just fired up the second boiler, adding the last 4.5 gallons of wort to   
the second boiler and pulling a portion from the first boiler to even out   
the boil. With approximately 9.0 gallons in each boiler and looking for a   
final of 8 gallons total (it really was turning into a long day). Grabbed   
the vacuum sealed packages of hops (was wanting to use Centennial) and   
found that one of the packets did indeed contain Centennial at 8.8 AAUs   
however the other packet contained Yakima Kent Goldings 5.46 AAU. Well   
Charley's recipe called for a whole bunch of high AAU Centennial, I   
started frantically searching for more in the frig. No Centennial, but   
almost a full ounce of Northern Brewer at 9.9 AAU, in the boil it went   
along with the remains of two ounces of Cascade. Somewhere between 3 and   
4 hours later I had approximately 9.0 gallons in a single boiler (now   
around 4:30 PM..daylight time). Added 2 ounces of EKG at knockout and   
cooled and let stand for 30 minutes waiting for the break and trub to   
drop. Racked to the  primaries and finished by 6:20 PM (its getting dark   
out here). Got 8.5 gallons  at  1.095, was shooting for 1.102, and probably   
would have got it if I had taken another hour to reduce the wort to 8   
gallons. Aerated the new wort and pitched the yeast from Charley. Had the   
beginnings of a fermentation within an hour of pitching, and this morning   
there was a happy bunch of yeast producing a steady stream of CO2 from   
the fermentation lock and a nice thick krausen on the surface of the   
wort.  I have call this beer "Old Mashtun Imperial Stout". While cleaning   
up the new mashtun  it was noted that the false bottom was not plugged   
with grain nor was there a large quantity of grain under the false   
bottom. Upon close inspection I noticed that the widget which is used to   
recover a large portion of the wort from under the false bottom, could   
under the weight of the grain contact the bottom of the mashtun in such a   
manner as to prevent any flow of wort. This has since been modified and   
hopefully the problem will no longer occur. As it turned out I did finish   
before it got dark and then I set my clock back to standard time which   
lead me to feel a whole lot better about the day.
    Cheers Jack Phillips

A few miles east of Charley where we brew on the timberline





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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:25:22 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: re:brown malt

"I recently saw some "brown malt" in a local hb supply, and decided to try
it out.  I did NOT, unfortunately, ask for the specific name of the malt,
but purchased 4lb."

Was this English brown malt? I used this malt in a porter once and was very
pleased with the results. It gives a nice dry malty flavor and should be used
to add complexity to the overall flavor profile. I would not recommend using
it as a base malt, it doesn't have any enzymes and I read somewere that at
high levels it can create a harsh flavor. I think the recommended rate is
between 5-15%. My recipe for porter used ~7% and I will probably try 10% the
next time.

"The next day I added this 4 lb of brown malt to 4lb of Mairs Otter Pale malt,
along with 1 lb flaked barley, and about 1/3 cup of Black Patent.  Protein
rest (a la Miller), conversion for 2 hours, etc...."

Don' t use a protein rest with British malts. They are highly modified grains
(proteins are already broken down) and a protein rest will most likely leave
you with weak head retention due to the further degradation of the medium
length protein molecules (you want these to remain).

- ---Thomas Murray
   Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:26:20 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Kolsch yeast

I've used Kolsch yeast once before (Wyeast), in a kolsch, of all things! :^)

It was very smooth, very clean, if I recall correctly (it was a couple,
three years ago).

I was wondering if anyone has used it to brew lager-style beers such as
pilsner, Octoberfest, Bock, etc., and if so, did you feel the yeast made a
good pseudo-lager?

I have a "Classic American Dort" in primary right now, using YCKC kolsch
yeast. Used 19-20% flaked maize, similar amount of Briess Munich, and the
balance German pils. Syrian Goldings for bittering with Hallertau
Mittelfruh for flavor and (hopefully) aroma.

Since my basement doesn't get very cold in the winter It's a bit of work to
achieve good lager fermenting temps, and I've always wished I could find a
yeast that could do a real good job of producing the lager flavor at
slightly warmer temps (right now, the basement floor is approx. 60 F, and
it won't get much cooler throughout the winter, because it's almost
completely underground - no exposed walls like on some homes.

Anyway, I suppose I'll find out soon enough without bothering you folks,
but I am curious if anyone has had experience with the maltier types (Bock,
Octoberfest).  I will post my findings on my Classic American Dort.





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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:26:58 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Re:Dunkel

"Can anyone point me towards information on a grain bill for this beer. I was
thinking 50% Pils malt, 48% Munich malt, and 2% chocolate. Am I close?
That's % extract, of course  :-)"

According to an excellent article in a 1996 BrewingTechniques (vol. 4, issue
4.1), that's about right. Some German brewers use up to 99% Munich malt,
although they may be using a malt that is specially made for them. I didn't
have very good results with a Dunkel I made with a 63% Munich. It seemed a
little dull and one dimensional. Next time I will stick with ~30% Munich to
let some of the Pils malt come through.

There is a good recipe for dunkel in Papazion's The Home Brewers Companon.
It's the Jack Be Nimble... one. He only uses ~21% Munich malt. This was one of
the first beer I brewed and it tasted really good. Even the hop rate was right
on target (somewhat surprising for Charlie P.)

Good luck!

- ---Thomas Murray
   Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:44:31 -0700
From: "Fred M. Scheer" <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: hbd # 2859, 10/26/98

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:12:09 -0900
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolke at alaska.net>  WROTE:
                           Malt Freshness

2.  More and more of us are buying bags of malt these days as they have
become available at reasonable prices.  Personally, I am frustrated at
not knowing how fresh the bag is that I am buying.  Could be years old,
and then I am going to keep it another two or three months.  Sure would
be useful if Briess, Bioriginal, etc. would see it as a competitive
quality issue to put the date bagged on it.


Sue and Fred, I know how frustrating it is if you have no way of
checking the age of the (Costly) malt on bags.
What I have done was that the maltster was required to give me
the harvesting year of the malt, the day of packing, etc, via
the lot # reported on the bags.
I see that in the future the maltsters will do the same what Craft
Brewers do on their beer labels; born on date......, bottling date.....;
or best used by date..........
The packaging date is more important when purchasing already milled
malt; infections can be in the malt bag; breakdown of starch already
occured; flavor absorbion from surounding areas; etc.
Call your supplier and I hope they more than happy to help you.



From: "Ed D'Anna" <edannaNOSPAM at webt.com>  WROTE:
Subject: All-grain brew with Munich malt (it was Weisenheimer)

 ...............but I recall that David told me that the malt was Weisenheimer.


Ed, thank you very much for the posting about the PROBLEM malt.
That's what I said in my recent posting ; I OBSERVED MORE PROBLEMS
WITH IMPORT MALT THAN WITH US MALT.




Fred M. Scheer
MALT MONTANA
maltster at marsweb.com


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---