---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Woodruff (Alan Edwards)
  flaked barley/ or flaked wheat (head retention): question (LEAVITDG)
  Dutch Homebrwing (Brad Railsback)
  flaked barly ("Theo.Elzinga")
  to RIMS or not too ("Thomas Kramer")
  Cider Priming (Rod Schaffter)
  NL HB (Keith Busby)
  Deutscheland (James.Tiefenthal)
  RE: Canning Wort ("John Lifer, jr")
  Re: Dekoninck (Jim Grady)
  Scale for brewing (Jim Grady)
  CAP and flaked maize (Nathan Kanous)
  Sugar is as sugar does (Eric.Fouch)
  Brewery Setup (MARK.KIRKBY)
  1338 ferment time (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  Re:  Brewtek Yeasts ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Belgian corrections (Jeremy Bergsman)
  pressure and temperature (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Brew Day In Squamish, B.C. (DaskeF)
  Re: Oregon Brew Crew ("Brian Rezac")
  Re: Yeast Update (Brett Gober)
  Malt question ("George De Piro")
  Electric Stove ("DARMARHAD")
  Harvesting yeast from bottled beers / Infected Belgian beers ("George De Piro")
  Carbonating Stone Use ("Marc Battreall")
  Winey Characteristics in Kolsch ("Mark Prior")
  Yeast Cleaning & BrewTek Slants (Ken Houtz)
  Competition Announcement ("Bryan L. Gros")
  RE: Pumps and Plumbing ("Houseman, David L")
  More malting questions (Ian Lyons)


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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:32:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Woodruff

Eric Fouch asked:
> I recently had a very nice white wine from St. Julians (here in
> Michigan) that was spiced with woodruff (sp?).  Slightly sweet, still
> and spicy...which got me to thinking.....has anybody heard of using
> woodruff in beer or mead?

Yes!  I had a wonderful woodruff ale about 5 years ago brewed by
San Andreas Brewing Co. (I think).  It was awesome.  It was a medium
bodied ale, on the light side in color (similar to Anchor Steam)
and had a wonderful nose and flavor from the woodruff.  It was on
the malty side--I don't remember any hops (but it was a while ago).

Woodruff is very interesting in flavor, very hard to describe.  When I
first tasted it it struck me as *similar* to cinnamon.

I have some in my hand right now, and the smell reminds me of sweet
tobacco--not the stinky oder that comes from burning the stuff, but the
sweet smell wafting from a pipe-tobacco shop.  It's prety subtle.  Funny
that didn't occur to me at all when I tasted that ale many years ago--I
distinctly remember muted cinnamon-like flavors (much more mellow than
real cinnamon).

I bought some because someday I will try to brew that woodruff ale that
I remember.  But I have NO idea how much to put in, or when.  I'd guess
that putting it at the end of the boil would work, but how much?

Does anybody have experience with brewing with woodruff?

Thanks!

 -Alan in Fremont, CA



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: flaked barley/ or flaked wheat (head retention): question

I am trying differnet things for head retention, and am stumped as to
the difference between flaked barley (suggested to me by a very good
local brewpub head brewer) and wheat (flaked, torrified?) for head re
tention and head quality.  If anyone has thoughts on this I would really
appreciate it.
<so little time.....and so much to brew!>
 ..Darrell Leavitt
Plattsburgh, New York.


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:27:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Railsback <rails2bier at yahoo.com>
Subject: Dutch Homebrwing 

I am sorry if I insulted any Nederlanders.  There are several homebrew
clubs in the Netherlands.  From what I saw they are just as adaptable
as US homebrewers in taking everyday equipment and adapting it to
brewing.
I never did brew while I was there as you could buy almost any
Trappist beer for under $1.50 per bottle.  The one thing I would brew
there would be stouts or porters as you have your choice of Guiness or
if you go to a specialty store you could find some good UK examples. 
The problem was that because of the strength  of the British pound and
high taxes they where over $3.00 per .5 liters or British pint.  The
Andechs Dopple Bock was 4 feet away and about $1.50(about 3 times the
German price), even I could figure out what to do in this case.  If
ever you are in Amsterdam do not miss the Bier Koning, they even have
bud, miller and coors(don't ask me why, ask Vlo the owner). There is
also a nice shop in Den Haag called Wijn and Bier Boutique at Leyweg
803-805.  Take tram 8 or 9 to the Leyweg stop and turn left while
walking the same way the tram was going.  They have a nice selection
of German beers and always have some kind of special where you can get
5 for 10 Giulders(slightly more than $1 a bottle).  Good beer hunting,
Brad



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:44:02 -0800
From: "Theo.Elzinga" <Theo.Elzinga at icu.nl>
Subject: flaked barly


Brad Railsback wrote

> I forget what translates to gerstevlokken. 
A good translation is flaked barley. Begian recipes often ask for unmalted
barley or wheat and flaked barley is a good solution for unmalted. Indeed
is 10 liters the standard for Dutch recipes



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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:06:03 -0500
From: "Thomas Kramer" <tkramer at monad.net>
Subject: to RIMS or not too

I have been doing all grain for about two years now using gott/igloo coolers
and a single  keg/brew pot, I just started doing 10 gal patches, I find it's
time to upgrade my system.  I have always thought of building some kind of a
3 tier system, but now with all the talk about RIMS, I am more confused then
ever.  My main problem with my current system is that my keg does not have a
false bottom it only has a ball vale off the side witch always gets clogged
with hop's and I have a hard time transferring my cooled wort to my
fermentor, I usually end up poring the wort from the keg into a cooler
fitted with a false bottom, and use it s a hop back.  But with 10 gal
patches it very hard to pour the keg into a cooler. I guess my question is
what did you gain by using RIMS, if it's just efficiency, it seems to me it
would just as easy to use more grain. Having never had the opportunity to
see a RIMS system in use, I not shore if I should buy a prefab false bottom
for my one keg, or buy a prebuilt system or what.  I am not very
mechanically inclined, although I do have a welder who will do work for me.
If there is any one who lives in southwestern NH or, Southern VT who has a
RIMS or 3 tier system I could see I would be a great help.

Tom Keene, NH



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:15:21 -0500
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: Cider Priming

Bill Jankowski writes:

> As usual, I'm flying by night, and hadn't thought about all points of
> my brew prior to throwing it in the fermenter. I've got 3 gallons of 
> cider fermenting with champagne yeast, and am planning on bottling all 
> of it. If I prime it with more fresh cider, how much should I use to 
> get adequate but not excessive carbonation?

I primed my last batch of 4 gal., fermented with EDME yeast, with 48 oz.
of store-bought apple juice (Check to make sure there are no 
preservatives added).  This resulted on carbonation comparable to an ale
after six months.  Probably champagne yeast will be a little quicker!

Cheers!
Rod Schaffter
Former Texan


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:35:46 -0600
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>
Subject: NL HB

Sjef is probably correct about the reason for the underdevelopment of
homebrewing in The Netherlands, although the variety of (especially
Belgian) beer he refers to has not always been available there. The
specialized cafes (e.g., Jan Primus in Utrecht) were something of a rarity
until quite recently; now every city has one or more and liquor stores sell
more variety.

This is only party true of the UK, however, where homebrewing also still
lags behind the US. On a recent stay in the UK (and I can say this brazenly
because I am a [bad] Brit), I was disappointed by the quality of beer in
the pubs, even those which claimed to have "real ale", and the variety in
the supermarkets and liquor stores was not good. My guess is that the Brits
are just not (by and large) aware of the variety of Belgian beers and think
British beer is best. Now I'll just wait for my compatriots to accuse me of
being disloyal to the crown.

Keith Busby


Keith Busby
George Lynn Cross Research Professor
Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies
University of Oklahoma
780 Van Vleet Oval, Room 202
Norman, OK 73019
Tel: (405) 325-5088. Fax: (405) 325-0103


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:54:34 -0500
From: James.Tiefenthal at rossnutrition.com
Subject: Deutscheland


Reviewing the info on the earlier thread about Alt has made me really thirsty,
so to quench this thirst I have decided to go to the original source and visit
Dusseldorf and Koln (It helps that my employer is sending me).  Can anyone in
the collective add any don't miss stops/ pubs / brewpubs other than what is
outlined by Jackson for these two areas?  Also, any tips on bringing quantities
of bier back to the states.  Thanks for your help, private E-mail is ok.

Jim Tiefenthal
SODZ Hombrew Club Member
Cowlumbus, OH


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:13:34 -0600
From: "John Lifer, jr" <jliferjr at misnet.com>
Subject: RE: Canning Wort

 RE: canning wort ("C and K")
The pressure that you saw in the canning jar of wort was caused by an
infection of some kind.  Maybe yeast, maybe bacteria.  If you place hot
liquid in a jar and seal the lid, then the pressure will reduce and suck
the lid DOWN!  if you have a lid that is bulging, then throw it OUT!
John In Mississippi
- --
Cornelius Ball Lock Kegs for Sale
See Web page for details.
http://www2.misnet.com/~jliferjr/Kegs/Default.htm




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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:25:59 -0500
From: Jim Grady <jim_grady at hp.com>
Subject: Re: Dekoninck

I made a DeKoninck clone last January and it came out fairly well.  It
was based on a recipe in "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" by Graham
Wheeler & Roger Protz; it is published by CAMRA.  I highly recommend the
book if you want recipes for duplicating different commercial European
beers.  I also like their book "Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home" for
recipes for British ales.

Without further ado, here is the recipe for 5.5 gal:
Ingredients:
   6 lb 13 oz Pils Malt (75% of grist)
   2 lb  8 oz Vienna Malt (24% of grist)
         1 oz Chocolate Malt (1% of grist)
       1.8 oz Saaz Hops ( at  4.0% alpha acid content); 60 min boil time
         1 Tbs Irish Moss rehydrated; added last 15 min of boil
   Wyeast 1388 - Belgian Strong Ale in 2 qt starter

   O.G. 1.048
   F.G. 1.008

Mashing:
   Use a mash thickness of 1 qt/#.  Rest for 30 min at 120 deg. F then
bring to 153 deg. F and rest for 60 min.

Notes:

  1. This recipe assumes an extract efficiency of 29 pt/#/gal.  I
     generally get between 28 & 32 pt/#/gal and usually plan on the
     conservative side.
  2. The recipe called for a step mash - I think just because the grist
     calls for Pils malt.  I have been noticing that for my beers, there
     is a strong correlation between doing a step mash to get a protein
     rest in and poor head retention.  This batch was no exception.
     Next time, I think I will do a single infusion mash.  BTW, the Pils
     malt I used was Ireks.
  3. I did not do a mash out step which would have given better yields.

- --
Jim Grady
jim_grady at hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group
Andover, MA



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:35:58 -0500
From: Jim Grady <jim_grady at hp.com>
Subject: Scale for brewing

I recently bought a scale for our kitchen & brewery that I am very
pleased with.  For a long time I have had a hard time getting a scale
that had very fine resolution for weighing hops (without spending LOTS
of $$$$).  This scale is made by Soehnle and is called the 8035 gala.  I
got it for $29.95 at the "Home Goods" store in Londonderry, NH.  It is a
digital scale and will measure up to 5 kg.  It as a 2 g. resolution
below 2 kg. and 5 g. resolution above.  The bowl will hold about 1 kg.
of grain.  It can sum successive measurements and it can display in
lb/oz if you are metric impaired.  Their technical data did not contain
any accuracy information, only precision.

Anyway, it is serving us well in brewing and baking.
- --
Jim Grady
jim_grady at hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group
Andover, MA




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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:59:16 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: CAP and flaked maize

Tom Bergman asks about the use of flaked maize in a CAP.

Yes, just add it to the mash...that's the beauty of flaked
adjuncts...pregelatinized.  Jeff Renner will no doubt tell you of the
merits of doing a cereal mash with corn grits (I'm sure it is better) but
the flaked variety worked well for me.  

Do you need the 135deg rest?  I skipped it in mine and with a long enough
lagering time, mine came out quite clear...not crystal clear, but quite
clear...YMMV.
nathan


Nathan in Madison, WI


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Date: 5 Nov 1998 10:01:05 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Sugar is as sugar does


HBD-

Bill Wible says:
>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:25:15 -0400
From: bwible at wanda.vf.pond.com (Bill Wible)
Subject:  Re:nummy Belgian beers / candi sugar

In response to this:
Belgian Candi sugars are definitely different from ordinary table/cane sugar,
the biggest difference being that Belgian candi sugar is made from beets,
while  regular table sugar is made from cane.  Big difference.
>
Bill-
Do you mean to say there is a big difference between sugar beets and sugar
cane, or a big
difference between the refined sucrose that is obtained from the beets or
sugar?
I'll agree thet a tall skinny plant that sticks up out of the ground is
different from a short
squat plant that grows into the ground, but once the juices have been
extracted, recrystallized
and refined, sucrose is sucrose.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: 5 Nov 1998 07:28:40 -0800
From: MARK.KIRKBY at airborne.com
Subject: Brewery Setup


Long time listener, first time caller.

I started all-grain brewing about 5 months ago.  I have been brewing a total
of a year now.  So as a relative newbie, I hope I am not re-inventing the
wheel here.

I have been mashing in a Rubbermaid rectangular cooler(48 qt).  The rest of
the process is, heat the water on the propane cooker, carry hot water to
cooler and mash with grains, heat more water, ....

Not very efficient on the process or my back.

What I intend to do is build a 3 tier in my garage against the wall.  However,
some questions come to mind:

1.  I can only do 5 gal. batches.  It seems I can use half height pony
kegs(7.5) gal for a HLT and a boiler, and then use the cooler on the middle
shelf to mash in.  Am I cutting to close on volume/capacity?

2.  Most 3 tier system "stair step" their way down to the bottom level.  To
conserve space, is there any reason why the bottom and top levels(the ones
with the kegs on them) can't be under each other.  This would leave the width
of only 2 tiers yet accomplish the goal.

By using 7.5 gal ponies, I figure the height requirements should be much less
thus cutting out any stability issue.

3.  Has anybody ever mounted an electric heating element in a SS keg?  I would
like to do this at least for the HLT, possibly the boiler too.  Tricks, tips?
I would like to use bulkhead fitting and no welding if possible on all
fittings.  I see where Rick Calley uses these alot with some success.

4.  Who the  at #$% is Jeff Renner anyway?


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:37:51 -0500
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: 1338 ferment time


marc asks about fermentation times for Wyeast 1338 European Ale.  Not being
able to lager beer, I've used this yeast alot to make ersatz octoberfests,
bocks, doppelbocks, as well as alts.  I would usually plan on it taking at
least 2 weeks to ferment out a wort with an original gravity in the 1.055 to
1.065 range at about 60-65F.

Well worth the wait, though.  It makes a great malty beer.  It's one of my
favorite yeasts.

- --Andrew.

andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu  



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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:03:30 -0800 
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Re:  Brewtek Yeasts

Andy asks about good strains from Brewtek.  Brewtek has a wide selection of
very interesting yeasts, and I am always surprised that I don't see more
people using them.  I have tried a number of their strains over the past few
years, and had good luck with all of them.  My "pick of the litter" has to
be the Brewtek Saison strain.  I brew a lot of Belgian beers, and this yeast
has never disappointed me and is unlike anything you can obtain from Wyeast
or White Labs.  Fermentation with this strain proceeds in a manner I can
only refer to as "crazed".  It's a very active top fermentor, and just when
you think it's finished it has a habit of trying to crawl out of the
fermentor again.  I have used it with good results in making Belgian pale
ales, Biere de Gardes and Saisons, and it seems to tolerate a wide
temperature range (no bubble gum esters, either...).  Other strains that I
have tried and liked are the "Old German Ale" strain (Zum Uerige I suspect,
good for alts) and the "British Microbrewery Ale" strain (nice for British
milds).  Brew on, 

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:38:43 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Belgian corrections

> From: bwible at wanda.vf.pond.com (Bill Wible)

> In response to this:
> Belgian Candi sugars are definitely different from ordinary table/cane sugar,
> the biggest difference being that Belgian candi sugar is made from beets,
> while  regular table sugar is made from cane.  Big difference.
[snip]
> I found you can buy rock candy at some of the candy outlets, and rock candy
> is very similar to clear candi sugar.  It works well in a trippel, anyway.

Well, Belgian candi sugar is sucrose, as is the table sugar sold in the US,
whether it is made from cane or beet.  One could buy rock candy, but it's
just expensive table sugar.  Now, if you are making a dubbel and want a
darker candi sugar, you have the choice of caramelizing some table sugar
yourself, or buying some.  As posted a few days ago, doing it yourself and
getting the degree of caramelization just right is tricky, so buying the
real thing might be the best way to go.

> And most Belgian
> beers, lambics in particular, also have bacteria intentionally introduced
> at some point.  Rather than re-culture from the bottle, you're better off
> buying yeast.  Wyeast has several different Belgian yeasts, and there are
> others like White Labs.

Well, some of you knew I'd respond to this.  *Most* Belgian beers do NOT
have bacteria in them.  Lambics, as Bill indicates, do (although technically
they cannot be introduced intentionally), as do the oud bruins/old
browns/flanders browns (Leifmann's/Goudenband, Rodenbach, Ichtegems...). 
Some other Belgian beers may have "wild" yeast, e.g. Orval will produce
mostly Brett if you culture from the bottle.  And yet some other beers will
be bottled with a non fermentation strain.  So, in general, Bill's advice
makes sense, especially given how many commercial Belgian strains are
available--don't bother bottle culturing.  However, Chimay has the
fermentation yeast in the bottle, so to the original poster: go for it. 
Many people have done it successfully, I guess you got an abused bottle.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:12:41 -0500 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: pressure and temperature

collective homebrew conscience:

chris wrote:

>I have never had a botulism problem. Once, I did notice a substantial
>pressure buildup while uncapping a bottle of wort for starter. At the
>time, I just attributed it to capping the wort while still hot.

i believe this is backward.  if you cap a bottle with hot contents, the air
in the bottle is warmer than later, when the bottle and its contents have
cooled.  ideal gas eqn of state is:  PV = nRT  

in this scenario, (to a close engineering approximation), for both states of
the gas, the volume doesn't change (if anything, it increases slightly due
to contraction of the fluid), n and R also do not change, so the only
variables are pressure and temperature, and they should move together, i.e.
as temperature goes up, pressure should likewise go up.  if the pressure in
the bottle went up as the temperature went down, something other than the
inanimate phenomena of thermodynamics must be at play.  i suspect the answer
might lie in the fascinating world of biology. 

maybe it was really lower pressure inside the bottle and there was some sort
of vacuum effect when the cap was removed, like when you open home-canned
food (????)

were fruit flies involved in some way?

btw, one further piece of info regarding the otter creek pale ale that had
the colloidal particulate: it was bottled on 8/31/98, which makes it about 2
months old when i got it.  at least they put the bottling date on the label.

brew hard,

mark bayer


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:13:08 -0800
From: DaskeF at bcrail.com
Subject: Brew Day In Squamish, B.C.

Fellow makers of good wort;

This is my first post to the HBD.  I have recently had the pleasure of
participating in the brewing of a pale ale at the Howe Sound Brew Pub,
here in Squamish, B.C. - a new experience for me.  I thought there might
be some interest , in this collective, in this story.

The brewer is Nigel Roberts, a fine, enterprising, young man,  who has a
good understanding of the processes employed at this custom made
brewery. He has the ability to describe each step of the procedure and
its purpose while the work is being carried out - an ability which I do
not posses. (when my hands start working, my mind shuts off; quite
dangerous at times).

Now for my story...

It was a 10 hour day, 'n not much of that was spent sitting around I'll
add.  At 8:00 I showed up at the Howe Sound Brew Pub Brew House, rubber
boots and change of cloths in hand, ready to brew more beer than I've
probably drunk in the last 10 years.  Approximately 2000 pints, or 1300
hectoliters.  The brewer arrived and we set about the task of making
wort.

A quick tour and some naive questions later and I was on the top floor
of the brew house dumping 7, 25 Kilogram bags of Pale Malt and some
specialty grain into the grain hopper.  The boiler was fired up and the
brew kettle was being filled with water.  Once the desired temperature
was reached it would be sprayed into the cascading grist (sp?) as it
fell into the mash tun.  We stood there and stirred up the mash for some
time, then let it rest.  The brew kettle, mash tun, and fermentation
vats are all 'jacketed' so that steam can be used to keep a constant
temperature.

After about 1.5 hours the temperature of the mash was raised about 10 C.
(I think from 55 C to 65 C, but am not sure).  That would make this a 2
step infusion mash (incorrectly referred to as a decoction (sp?) mash on
their brew sheet).  The leftover kettle water was pumped into
fermentation tank #1 for holding - to be used in the sparge.  Following
some waiting we began to recirculate the wort - until it ran clear.
Then the pump was diverted into the brew kettle and the sparge began.
One thing that surprised me was that the sparge arm tended to
concentrate the sparge into the centre of the mash.  This had the
negative effect of making a hole in the centre of the mash and we had to
keep stirring mash to compensate.  Considering all the work that went
into building this wonderful equipment (all custom built in Summerland
B.C.) it is weird that this was overlooked.

When the kettle was 'full' (actually, it is a 2000 hectoliter kettle but
the beer holding tank only hold about 1250 hectoliters so we raised the
level to about 1400 HL to allow for evaporation) the temperature was
raised to boiling and the hops were added.  While the wort was 'cooking'
I got the dubious pleasure of cleaning the mash tun.  The grist (sp?)
was shoveled into plastic pails, to be picked up later by a farmer who
feeds this to his animals (still contains about 20% protein).  The
brewer lifted the false bottom and cleaned under there.

Some time later we prepared to move the wort into the fermentation tank.
More diverting of pump input and output - fresh cold water would be
pumped through the counterflow chiller and then diverted back into the
mash tun - the water is quite warm and can be used of cleaning.  The
wort would be diverted through the counter flow chiller and into the
fermentation tank.  While all this was going on I got to help prepare a
barrow of beer for Halloween - spices, pumpkin, and yeast. 

The yeast 'lives' in old honey tubs in the cooler, covered in wort.
They will use 2 or 3 liters of yeast from the last batch of similar
style brew and harvest some of the 14 liters that is generated after
fermentation.  I took about 3 table spoons, mixed it with some wort and
added it into the barrow.  When the fermentation tank was full I added
the rest of the yeast, mixed with some wort, to the brew - what fun!

The most difficult part of the entire exercise was cleaning the brew
kettle.  It was still quite warm and one has to climb into this monster
to scoop out the mess on the bottom - mostly spent hops, and scrub the
insides and intop (word?).  What a mess - I was covered in wort leavings
(doesn't sound nice) and was soaked.  Glad I brought that change of
clothing.

It was a long day, and I hurt for quite a while.  For my trouble.. I am
permitted to come in and get some yeast whenever I need it and... I will
be allowed to crush my grain in their mill.  Not bad for a days work.  A
memorable, and unusual experience - highly recommended.



regards,  Felix Daske



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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:20:44 -0700
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re: Oregon Brew Crew

Marc, JPullum127 at aol.com, wrote:
> I am still looking for a connection with a homebrew club  called
the  oregon
> brew crew with an objective of getting some pointers to cloning
their
>wonderfull collaborator milk stout.any help would be really
appreciated thanks
>again

Marc,

Here is the information on the Oregon Brew Crew as it appears on the
AHA's Registered Homebrew Clubs list.  This listing can be found at
http://beertown.org.

As for the Oregon Brew Crew, they're an great group of homebrewers
currently led by Bob McCracken (an excellent organizer and homebrewer
in his own right.)

Here's the information:

Oregon Brew Crew
72714.3316 at compuserve.com  (also bobm at patlbr.com)
Phone: 503.235.8732
4239 NE Flanders
Portland, OR 97213

PS - I have had the Collaborator Milk Stout and I agree, it is
wonderful!  I also think that Widmer's collaboration with the Oregon
Brew Crew is probably the best example of commercial breweries working
with homebrew clubs.  I hope it continues to be a success.

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:34:48 -0600
From: Brett Gober <bgober at mail.socket.net>
Subject: Re: Yeast Update

>I don't believe this is true.  Widmer has been very proud of using
>their Alt strain and keeping it in the bottle.  I've cultured from the
>Widmer Hefeweizen bottle, and used it in several brews all with great
>results.  Things may have changed in the last few months with Widmer,
>but I'm doubtful.  I think Jeremy just had a culturing glitch of some
>type.  It happens.  I'd suggest trying again, or using the WhiteLabs
>American Hefeweizen strain.
>
> -SM-

This goes back a couple of years, so they may have changed but I doubt
it. According to Kurt Widmer, they DO add a different yeast to their
Hefe. There may some fermentation yeast present that could be cultured,
but the bulk of the yeast is a non-flocculating strain that is not a
very good fermenter. I can't speak to their Alt strain or their Alt
beer, as it was not bottled at the time and was only available on tap at
a few places in town. If you are talking about yeast in their Alt, I
wouldn't doubt that it is the fermentation strain. 

Brett


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:04 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Malt question

     Hi all,
     
     Has anybody out there in HBD land ever used Thomas Fawcett (TF) malts? 
      TF is (as far as I know) a family owned maltster in Castleford, 
     England.  They have pale ale malts available that are produced from 
     Maris Otter, Halcyon, and Pipkin barleys, as well as wheat and oat 
     malts (and a full line of high-kilned stuff).  If you have used it, 
     what kind of malt did you use and what kind of characteristics did it 
     impart to the beer that made it unique?
     
     Has anybody used malts from Malteries Franco-Belge?  Again, what did 
     you find special (or not so special) about it?
      
     Thanks in advance, have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY) 


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:38:00 -0600
From: "DARMARHAD" <darmarhad at email.msn.com>
Subject: Electric Stove

I just started brewing two months ago, so I am really new to this hobby. My
question is:
I brew my wort on top of an electric stove. I think I need a heat ring or a
fire ring. I would appreciate any and all input. Where can one acquire a
Fire ring.
Thanks,
Darrell
DARMARHAD at msn.com





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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:39 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Harvesting yeast from bottled beers / Infected Belgian beers

     Hi all,
     
     There has been chat about the best way to harvest yeast from bottles 
     of commercial beer, particularly Chimay (red, I think).
     
     There are several things to keep in mind when undertaking such an 
     endeavor.  A proper understanding of what is going on will shed light 
     on the logic of these procedures:
     
     A lot (most) of the yeast in a bottle of Chimay is dead (bless their 
     souls).  What is alive is likely to be in really poor condition.  It is 
     your job to take these helpless, weak organisms and nurse them back to 
     health.
     
     You do not want to use "normal" gravity wort for reviving the yeast 
     because it is stressful to the yeast to be put into a very high-sugar 
     environment.  While you may succeed in reviving some yeast with normal 
     gravity wort, you will likely fail on many occasions.
     
     You do not want to use more than a few mL of wort to revive the yeast. 
     Adding a large amount of wort (>5-10 mL) has the same consequences as 
     underpitching a batch of beer:  long lag times and greatly increased 
     risk of infection (because there is an ocean of nutritious wort and 
     little yeast activity to keep invaders at bay).  The best, most 
     consistent results will be had by either plating the yeast out on agar 
     or pitching the bottle dregs into 5-10 mL of wort at about 7 P 
     (1.028).
     
     Be VERY careful about sanitation at this early stage.  Any small 
     contamination will grow along with the yeast and can become a sizable 
     population by the time you are ready to pitch your batch.  I would NOT 
     open the bottle, decant the beer, cover it with foil and put it back 
     into the fridge!!!  That is like sending an engraved invitation to 
     unwanted bugs.
     
     I have had good results yeast harvesting by simply pouring the dregs 
     of bottle-conditioned beer into 20 mL vials that contain 5 mL of 
     previously prepared sterile wort (I pressure cook dozens of vials at a 
     time, thus giving myself about 6-months worth in a single 1 hour 
     session).  These vials are also great for growing yeast from agar 
     slants/plates.
     
     It is best to shake the vial to aerate the media and incubate it at 
     30C (86F).  The yeast will usually show signs of life within a day.  
     Be careful when opening the vial; there can be a substantial release 
     of pressure.
     ---------------------------
     Bill W. states, "And most Belgian beers, lambics in particular, also 
     have bacteria intentionally introduced at some point.  Rather than 
     re-culture from the bottle, you're better off buying yeast."
     
     
     This is not true.  It is a sad and tenacious myth that most Belgian beer 
     is purposely infected.  This misunderstanding is illustrated at homebrew 
     contests where there are invariably beers in the Belgian categories that 
     seem to be accidentally infected attempts at non-Belgian styles 
     ("American Oud Bruin," "Raspberry Wheat Disaster Framboise," and such).
     
     The majority of Belgian beers are brewed under fairly normal conditions, 
     with control over the microbial make-up of the beer.  Belgian does not 
     equal infected or bacterial ridden.
     
     On the other hand, Bill does make an interesting point:  he says that it 
     may be better to buy the yeasts from commercial banks because of the 
     bacteria added by the brewers.  While most brewers do not intentionally 
     add bacteria (as I said above), many small breweries have antiquated 
     packaging equipment that may invite some unwanted contamination.  This 
     is true for small breweries everywhere, not just Belgium.  It is 
     important to keep in mind that the yeast you grow may not be pure, for 
     completely accidental reasons.  Carefully evaluate the starter or do a 
     smaller test batch with any new "harvested" yeast before committing a 
     large amount of effort to it.  Better yet, plate the yeast on 
     differential media to check for contamination.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:53:34 -0500
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Carbonating Stone Use

Hello All,

I have one of those stainless steel carbonating stones and was wondering if
anyone has come up with a easy and proven method for using this thing as an
means of artificially carbonating a Corny Keg? I have used it exclusively
for aerating my wort and starters and would like to give it a whirl to
carbonate with. I inquired to the place I bought it from a while back and he
said simply attach it to the internal down tube of the CO2 inlet inside the
keg and slowly increase the gas flow to about 25-30 psi. This is of course
after cooling the beer down to 42F or below. Sounds simple enough but I ran
a test the other day using water and the plastic tubing that I had used to
attach the stone to the CO2 tube inside blew off at around 15 psi even
though it was a snug fit. Not only that, it required alot of "mucking
around" to get the thing connected and I certainly wouldn't want to try that
with beer for sure, sanitized gear or not.
I have had good success with other methods of carbonating like simply
rocking or shaking a cold keg with the gas connected and priming the keg the
"old fashioned" way with dextrose and waiting for a week or so. I would like
to give this carbonating stone a whirl though to see if it provides better
or more rapid artificial carbonation.

Thanks in advance.

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:23:21 PST
From: "Mark Prior" <priorm at hotmail.com>
Subject: Winey Characteristics in Kolsch

Has anyone had any luck brewing a Kolsch with winey characteristics?  If 
so, what yeast did you use?  What temperature did you ferment at?

Thanks,

Mark Prior
priorm at hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 98 14:41:14 -0500
From: Ken Houtz <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Yeast Cleaning & BrewTek Slants

- -- [ From: Ken Houtz * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --


Date: Thursday, 05-Nov-98 01:32 PM

From: Ken Houtz                \ Internet:    (kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net)
To:   Posts to Homebrew Digest \ Internet:    (post@hbd.org)

Subject: Yeast Cleaning & BrewTek Slants

> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:41:03 -0500 
> From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
> Subject: yeast culturing and crystal malt vs. unfermentables
> 
> To all that culture yeast from carboy bottoms:
> 
> I'm using the method of culturing yeasties from primary fermentation
> carboy bottoms sludge recommended by Wyeast and was having trouble
> deciding when to pour off the "suspended" yeast from the sludge (hops,
> tiny grain pieces, etc).  does the trub appear to be courser particles
> than the fine yeast?  or is it better just to pitch the whole lot of
> stuff from a practical standpoint.  I am just trying to pitch a decent
> count of yeast since I am having trouble reaching high conversion when
> just pitching from the packet or a single starter.  My OG tend to be
> about 1.050-1.060 and it seems I never get much below 1.020 or 1.018
> which are about 10% below the supposed attenuation of London Ale 2
> yeasts from Wyeast.
> 
> Also, I seem to remember a relation between L (crystal malt color) and
> percentage unfermentable sugars.  is it high L, high unferementables, or
> the other way around?
> 
> Thanks all.  Private replies are ok.
> 
> Pete Czerpak
> pete.czerpak at siigroup.com

Pete,

I made a start at trying the Wyeast method but didn't do the whole thing and
what I get as yeast seems pretty clean.  Here is what I do FWIW:

After racking to secondary I carefully dump the remaining wort making sure
all of the crud (trub ?) stays on one side of the carboy.  Then I carefully
pour in about 750 cc of sterile distilled water not letting it touch the
sides or inside of the neck.  I swirl it to slurry up the yeast and then
slowly pour it back into the 1000 cc Erlenmeyer from whence the sterile
water had come.  I cover it with Al foil that I have previously doused with
rubbing alcohol and set it back in my fermentation chest (chest freezer w/
Ferm Temp) set at 66 F until the new batch is ready to pitch (usually within
an hour.  I've gone 4 generation this way without trouble.  Note that this
is all times two carboys as I do 10 gal.  I arbitrarily dump the stuff after
that and start with a fresh specimen from my mini slant in Super Starter and
step that up to about 1500 to 1800 cc for the next (10 gal.) batch

Hope this helps.

Ken Houtz


> 
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:26:07 -0600
> From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu>
> Subject: Yeasts from Brewer's Resource?
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Two days ago, I received a late birthday gift from my future father-in-law
:
> a complete yeast culturing kit from Brewer's Resource!  I just need to
pick
> 6 strains...
> 
> So, any advice on good strains from these guys?  I don't see any lagers in
> my fermentors any time soon, as I don't have adequate temp. control.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Andy Ager               Beer Geek, Beer Judge
> Chicago, IL             Homebrewer Ordinaire
> - --Chicago Beer Society -- Silver Medal Homebrew Club of the Year, 1998 -
 -

Andy,

I've been using the BrewTek method for a year now and find I like their CL-
170 best of those that I have tried.  It starts very quickly in the Super
Wort.  36 to 48 hours and it is definitely ready to step up.   See my post
to Pete above.  They describe this one as an English pub draft type good for
Bitters and Brown ales.  I agree.  I make a combination using 6 lb. of their
British Pale DME + 3 lb. of their Big Red DME with 2 oz. Columbus pellets
for the last 45 min of boil and then a quarter ounce in each secondary
carboy at or shortly after racking.  It gets some smiles.

I've also tried their CL-160 and CL-150 and they are OK but I prefer the 170

Ken Houtz



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:38:30 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Competition Announcement

I'm pleased to announce the 13th Annual National
Bay Area Brew Off, on Feb. 6, 1999 in Dublin, CA.
Entries will be accepted from Jan. 11-Jan. 23 at
Hoptech Homebrew Supplies (www.hoptech.com) in
Pleasanton. (3015 Hopyard Rd, Ste E, Pleasanton CA 94588)
Prizes are awarded in each of these eight categories:

  Pale American Ales (includes Amer. Pale Ale, Amer. 
       Amber Ale)
  Pale English Ales (Bitter, Special Bitter, ESB, and IPA)
  Dark Lagers (Maibock, trad. bock, doppelbock, vienna, 
       marzen, dunkel, schwartz)
  Porters (brown and robust)
  Stouts (dry, foreign, sweet, oatmeal)
  Barleywine & wheatwine
  Christmas beers
  Mead 

Entries consist of 2 bottles and $6 per entry. Only one entry
per style please. Attach a label to each bottle with your name,
address, phone number, club affiliation, category, style, and
any special ingredients used. For mead, specify still or sparkling
and metheglin, traditional, pyment, cyser, or melomel as necessary.

All are welcome to celebrate at Hooligans California AleHouse 
and Grill and to pick up your scoresheets (7294 San Ramon Rd., 
Dublin CA)

Judge or steward volunteers please contact Bryan Gros
(gros at bigfoot.com) via email or at 510-601-6780.

Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:38:41 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Pumps and Plumbing

Wayne (WayneM38 at aol.com) relates that he uses quick disconnects,
norprene high temp hose and braided (I assume again high temp hose).
First I'd like to ask him to post the specifics of these quick
disconnects (where he got them, how much they cost, etc.).  Second, I'll
also offer a cheap alternative.  Maybe not as good, but it works very
well.  I use 1/2" ID thick walled tubing I bought at the True Value
hardware store.  Very inexpensive.  It is food grade and clear but I
don't know what the temperature rating is.  But as it turns out in
practice I pump boiling hot liquids without any problems, either
structural or flavor related.  Instead of quick disconnects, I use brass
garden hose to hose barb swivel fittings, also cheap.  So on the outlet
of my Gott mash/lauter tun, H/L tank, and the inlet to my mash/lauter
tun for recirculating wort, I use standard brass garden hose to 1/2" NPT
fittings.  I don't have these fittings on my pump inlet or the RIMS
heater outlet, but rather the tubing is clamped in place.  By simply
unscrewing the garden hose connector on the pump's inlet tube I can pump
H/L to clean, sanitize or fill the mash/lauter tun, hot wort from the
mash/tun, or even hot wort from the kettle (although I don't do that at
this time).  The outlet of the RIMS can be switched from the inlet to
the mash/lauter tun or to waste water or back to the H/L tank for
recirculating boiling water to clean/sanitize the tubing, pump housing
and RIMS heater.   This is all pretty cheap and works well in practice.
Everything is available at local hardware stores.   But the quick
disconnects seems cool so I'd like to know where to get them and
specifically which they are.

Dave


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:23:02 +1030 (CDT)
From: Ian Lyons <ilyons at science.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: More malting questions


Most of you won't know that when malted grain gets to you it has had the 
tufty rootlets removed!  Question is:  why is it removed?  (my guess is 
that they contain lots of (irrelevant) proteins and little starch).  And 
what is the technical term for tufty rootlets.  

For the interest of those who have helped me along the path of maltsters 
righteousness,  some feed grade wheat and barley has been germinated, 
probably too hot (20oC) to about half acrospire length in three days, and 
then has been 
drying outside.  Got rained on a little, but today is sunny and dry, and a 
slight wind:  I have hope still.

Ian


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---