---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: Largering (John_E_Schnupp)
  oregon brew crew (JPullum127)
  Part 2, response to discussion CHILL HAZE (Fred Scheer)
  Part 1, response to discussion CHILL HAZE (Fred Scheer)
  cherries in my stout(hopefully) (Vincent A Dongarra)
  Sugar is as sugar does ("Crossno, Glyn")
  Electric Stove (Richard S. Kuzara)
  Richmond Va Brewpubs (Nathan Kanous)
  Removing the rootlets from malt ("George De Piro")
  Yeast Slurry Storage ("Marc Battreall")
  3-tier rims ("Spies, James")
  Fluid dynamics of a grain bed/Infected Belgians (David C. Harsh)
  Question about yeast nutrient (Brian Pickerill)
  Belgian candi (Stephen Cavan)
  Thomas Fawcett (TF) malts (Jeff Renner)
  Re: More malting questions (Jeff Renner)
  Kegging (David Peters)
  Brew Clubs in Oklahoma (Carl Wilson)
  Beer Pinball (Tim Anderson)
  Classic American Pilsner (Delano DuGarm)
  Oxidation (Eric.Fouch)
  dark candi sugar ("Bayard W. Wenzel")
  pronunciation (Peter.Perez)
  wyeast 1028/cold break question (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  Smoked Brown Ale ("Mark E. Hogenmiller")
  Cold Fermenting ("Kelly C. Heflin")
  HERMS and RIMS (Jeff Pursley)
  Re: Widmer Hefewiezen Yeast (Scott Murman)
  Kit Beer Questions (AKGOURMET)
  Hey Fridge Guy.  A quick Hot/Cold question (Brad Plummer)
  Plastic Quick Connect Source (WayneM38)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:00:15 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: RE: Largering

>>I heard that you can larger beers without the use of a fridge. Is that
>>true and how is it done. I would like brew a Pilsner and I will have the

>The temperature needs to be steady, and at the optimum for the beer you
are
>lagering.  If you are lucky enough to have this kind of weather, and you
are
>on good terms with your weather radio, then - go for it!

Here's another option that works if you live in a northern climate
when the average outdoor temp is at or below the desired fermentation
temperature.

Build a container that will house your fermenter  I used a wooden box, you
could make it out of most anything.  Install a heat source, I used a light
bulb.  I hooked the light bulb up to a temp controller used for heating
instead of cooling.  When ever the temp gets too cold the heat source will
come on and provide warmth.  I think I used a 100 W bulb.  I ferment in
glass carboys so I also had it covered to protect it from the light.

It should be noted that you should make/use the proper electrical
connections/equipment if this device is to be used outdoors.  I have brewed
a few batches using this warming box without problems.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:06:58 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: oregon brew crew

thanks to all who responded. the brew crew folks intend to post  the
collaborator milk stout recipe  at their web site within a week for those who
asked me to share the info i recieved    marc  web address is listed below 
<DIV>Try contacting them through their web page at 
<A HREF="http://www.patch.com/obc/">http://www.patch.com/obc/</A></DIV>


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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:23:05 -0700
From: Fred Scheer <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: Part 2, response to discussion CHILL HAZE

The formation of Protein precipitation is as follows:
1.) PROTEINS - originate from Malt and have undergone a reduction of
molecular size.
2.) TANNIN - like compound (polyphenols) which are found in Malt and
partly originate from Hops
3.) OXYGEN - plays a part in formation of haze. The most concern must be

given to air pick up after fermentation.
During the malting process, high molecular protein from barley is
converted to higher and medium peptides and to amino acids. For
stabilization purposes, the amino acids need to be considered, also the
lower peptides, but the higher molecular peptides are the group we are
interested in. During the mashing process the amino acids and medium
peptides are first dissolved, before coagulation takes place by boiling
the wort. The higher molecular proteins are partly coagulated during
boiling in the form of the so called "hot break". Another part forms a
compound with Tannins (Polyphenols) and is
soluble in heat. During the cooling process these compounds become
insoluble (cold trub). Soluble, higher molecular, protein - tannin
compounds remain in the wort and become insoluble during fermentation
and storage. During the process, oxidized polyphenols together with the
remaining proteins form new protein-tannin compounds that during the
course of time grow into bugger molecules. When beer is cooled, these
molecules precipitate as insoluble haze, which later becomes permanent.
Storage of fermented beer at near-freezing temperatures (if you do so,
you can calculate the freezing point of your beer before) continues the
further
precipitation of haze-active protein materials. Beers hold for a longer
time at lower temperatures tend to be more stable, and also easier to be

stabilized.
Fred M. Scheer
MALT MONTANA



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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:21:49 -0700
From: Fred Scheer <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: Part 1, response to discussion CHILL HAZE

On Tuesday, Nov. 3, 1998 I saw a posting in hbd about old
maltst/doppels/Colloidal Haze. My posting is regarding the colloidal
haze, as I think it is a bit more complicated than descriped.
The goal of any chill proofing techniques is removal of the protein and/

or Tannin involved in haze formation, or rendering the protein or Tannin

molecules so that either is incapable of forming a visible haze.  It
must be emphasized that all beers are different, and each requires a
slightly different treatment for chemical-physical stabilization. The
main processing approaches to chill proofing are proteolytic enzymes,
protein adsorbents and protein precipitants like Tannin.  However, there

are also additional ways which contribute to increase the physical
stability, such as improved filtration techniques and materials, using
of fining agents for accelerated clarification during
storage, decreased contamination from iron and copper ions, lowered
dissolved oxygen levels at all processing stages, adaption of
centrifugation of fermented beers, and last but not least the usage of
improved barley varieties for malting.
Colloidal stability is enhanced by using well-modified malts that
possess sufficient diastase but minimal soluble protein, employing
sufficient times for proteolysis during mashing, ensuring conversion
before mash-off, controlling the pH of mash and sparge water, employing
a vigorous, rolling boil in the kettle, and clarifying wort before
pitching and fermentation.



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:47:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Vincent A Dongarra <vad1 at Ra.MsState.Edu>
Subject: cherries in my stout(hopefully)

Hi there,

 I am new to brewing and would like some advice.  I have
only brewed one five-gallon batch of stout and loved the results, but this
time would like to flavor it with cherries.  All I have is a basic plastic
primary and a priming tank that, I suppose, could be used for a secondary.
I already have the malt extract ingredient kit from william's for some
more stout.

Can I add cherries at the end of the wort boil and just pour them in with
everything, or should I sparge them out?  I don't have access to fresh
fruit, so can I use frozen or canned?  Will doing this increase the
fermentation time and make my beer taste like plastic from sitting in a
bucket for too long?  I really hope someone can help me out here,
although, to be honest, I like the stout straight just fine
thanks in advance

Vincent Dongarra                                                            





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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:49:12 -0600 
From: "Crossno, Glyn" <Glyn.Crossno at cubic.com>
Subject: Sugar is as sugar does

This may be true in brewing.  But in baking there is a difference between
cane sugar and beet sugar.  I have several recipes where you will be
disappointed if you use beet sugar.

Glyn "Wondering what a real Alt tastes like" Crossno
In Estill Springs, TN
- ---------------
Drink up, my son!
May the joys of today be those of tomorrow!
May thy goblet of life hold no dregs of sorrow!!



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:52:22 -0700
From: rkuzara at wyoming.com (Richard S. Kuzara)
Subject: Electric Stove

<"DARMARHAD" writes
<I just started brewing two months ago, so I am really new to this hobby. My
<question is:
<I brew my wort on top of an electric stove. I think I need a heat ring or a
<fire ring. I would appreciate any and all input. Where can one acquire a
<Fire ring.

I brew on an electric stove and I worry about any top damage due to the long
hours of high heat use.  Additionally, I wish to concentrate as much heat as
possible on the kettle.  Therefore, I remove the two electric elements (but
not the drip pans) and put a large sheet of tin foil across the two burner
areas.  I then puncture holes and reinsert the elements.  This has three
affects: it protects the stove enamel, it concentrates the heat, and it
keeps the stove top clean.






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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 07:22:46 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Richmond Va Brewpubs

Going to be in Richmond VA on Nov 16th.  Any good brewpubs to check out?
Thanks.
nathan


Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS
Clinical Assistant Professor
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Office Phone (608) 263-1779
Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital)


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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998  9:22 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Removing the rootlets from malt

     Hi all,
     
     Ian asks how to remove the rootlets from his homemade malt, and if it 
     is really necessary to do this.
     
     The rootlets contain unwanted protein and will also add weight to the 
     malt (so you will get a lower yield per unit weight).  They are 
     relatively easy to remove by putting the malt on a screen and rubbing 
     it with your hands.  The delicate rootlets will fall off and go 
     through the screen while the kernels remain on top.
     
     If you made a lot of malt it may take you a little while, but mindless 
     work is sometimes pleasant.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:32:38 -0500
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Yeast Slurry Storage

Hello All,
I just wanted to share some information I have gathered with you all in
regards to storing yeast slurries in the refrigerator after harvesting them
from the fermenter. With the recent release of the special issue of Zymurgy
that is all about yeast I figured the time was right. The info to follow was
not exactly based on a controlled scientific experiment that I conducted but
more so based on my own observations and experience. YMMV of course.
I have a habit of saving the yeast slurry from just about every brew I make
even if I have no intentions of using it again. As a general rule I will
clean and sanitize (with boiling water) a quart Mason jar and then pour the
slurry along with a cup or so of beer from the carboy after I have racked
the beer to the secondary into the jar, place an airlock on it, label it
with the date and other pertinent info, and set it in the refrigerator at
about 40F. I have read in a few of the "older" homebrewing books (NCJH et
al) that yeast has been stored like this for up to six months and reused
with good results. I have personally never reused these six month old ones
but I still saved them, don't ask me why. I managed to gather a collection
of 8 as of the other day. I got the idea to see if I could revive them just
the other day and that brings me to my quasi-experiment.
Out of the eight I had, 4 of them were definitely bad so they went down the
drain. The 4 I decided to try to revive are:
Wyeast 2565 Kolsch, Wyeast 1318 London Ale III, Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager,
and Yeastlab A07 Canadian Ale. They all were from primary fermentations as
described above except for the London Ale which was skimmed from the top of
a primary open fermentation. They were all from about the same date which
was April of this year making them roughly 6-7 months old, and stored
underneath the beer they produced at 40F. I carefully decanted the old spent
wort off the top of them and poured the slurry into quart Mason jars and
added 300 ml of fresh sterile 1.035 hopped wort to each and put on a rubber
stopper and an airlock. (In case you are wondering, a #12 stopper is the one
for standard size Mason jars). All four were about 60-75 ml slurry volume.
The Yeastlab A07 showed the first signs of life within about 6 hours, with
the Wyeast 2565 and 2206 following suit a few hours after that. Now, two
days later the same three are going pretty good and the Wyeast 1318 has done
nothing. This seems odd to me because it was the one from the open ferment
which was top skimmings and appeared to be the cleanest looking yeast I had
ever harvested at the time.
Anyway, I will probably not use any of these to brew with, but just thought
the collective might be interested in the results of this minor experiment.
THE MORAL OF THE STORY: Yes, you can probably salvage yeast slurry from your
primary fermenter and store it away for months on end and reuse it and get
good results. However, with the availability of fresh new cultures and the
fact that alot of people now have taken up yeast ranching, there is no
reason to save the slurry for that long unless you are going to reuse it
within a week or so like most brewing texts suggest. Why take chances?
Me personally, I have 40+ yeast strains in my ranch on slants so I can't
tell you why I saved these for that long. I guess I am just anal when it
comes to yeast. But it is fun nevertheless!!

Have A Hoppy Day!

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:45:11 -0500
From: "Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: 3-tier rims

All -

Mark Kirkby writes in concerning a 3 tier rims . . .

>>>I can use half height ponykegs(7.5) gal for a HLT and a boiler, and then
use the cooler on the middle shelf to mash in.  Am I cutting to close
on volume/capacity?<<<
>>>I can only do 5 gal. batches.<<<

You should be fine for 5 gallon batches.  However, if you're going to go
to the trouble of building a 3 tier system, why not go for 10 gallon
capacity.  A 48 quart MT should give you enough grain volume for about
26 lbs of grain, enough for 10 gal batches of 1060's beer.  Believe me,
the "must brew mass quantites" bug *will* bite, and if you use a pony
keg for the boiler, you'll be out of luck height-wise for a regular
sanke keg with your suggested frame size.  

>>>is there any reason why the bottom and top levels(the ones
with the kegs on them) can't be under each other.  This would leave the
width
of only 2 tiers yet accomplish the goal.<<<

I guess you're thinking that the HLT would be on top, the boiler
underneath and the MT on the other side for gravity feed purposes.  This
would work, but I'd be concerned about 1) cramped space between the
boiler and the bottom of the HLT, and 2), condensation buildup all over
the place if you have a wooden frame.  I'd either stick to the stairstep
or invest in a small pump (1/100 hp) and arrange the system with the MT
on top, the HLT under it, and the boiler out to the side.  Use the pump
to get mash and sparge water to the MT, and gravity to the boiler.  This
lets the boil kettle vent freely, and also allows for gravity runoff to
the fermenter, if the frame is built correctly.

>>>Has anybody ever mounted an electric heating element in a SS keg?<<<

Check out the system at http://andinator.com/zymico/zymico.html
His HLT has a heater element in it.  (plus just a few other gadgets)  If
you put an electric element in a HLT, though, make sure you talk to
folks who know how to wire it before you proceed (if you don't already).
 I don't suppose that electrocution would be much fun.

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:07:27 -0500
From: David.Harsh at uc.edu (David C. Harsh)
Subject: Fluid dynamics of a grain bed/Infected Belgians

I'd like to commend the quality experimental work on fluid patterns in a
grain bed from John Palmer.  As expected, a false bottom over the entire
bottom of the tun is best, a point sink drain is the worst.  I would
suspect that a "U" or "H" or "theta" shape would probably perform (within
experimental error) as well as the full false bottom as long as your
sparging rate isn't too fast.

What hasn't been addressed as a variable is the aspect ratio
(Length/Diameter) of the lauter tun.  As the height increases (at constant
diameter), the problems due to reduced false bottom area become less
significanat; as L/D decreases, they become more significant.

Commercial brewers have a much smaller L/D than we do (i.e., a room size
lauter tun with L/D of .25 or so), and as George dePiro noted, they use
uniform false bottoms across the entire tun.  On the homebrew scale (a ten
gallon Gott with L/D=1 or greater), you can get "good" results with a point
source drain.

Many people have mentioned getting a "working model" of lautering but you
can't do this if ignore mass transfer resistances (both diffusion and
convection) in the system.  Once we solve it, what do we gain?  An extra
point of extract?  For all the work involved, I'll stick to Narziss'
heuristic and enjoy myself.

Note:  I teach chemical engineering and understanding the interest in the
problem.  I've toyed with the concept of solving the unsteady-state mass
balance equations out of curiosity (I know, top 10 ways to tell you're a
geek).  If there's really interest, maybe I'll actually do it.  It's just
that a more efficient lautering won't automatically make better beer.
- ----------------
On "infected" Belgian beers-
        The problem is that many people don't know the difference between a
non-Saccharomyces yeast strain and a bacteria.  Then there's the use of
indigenous microflora (that's probably not the right terminology) for
fermentation of lambics.  This combines with the fact that many Belgian
beers have flavor profiles that are not inconsistent with infections in
other styles such as sour, acidic, phenolic etc.  So someone tastes a
Belgian ale, knows that the flavor profile was desired by the brewer, they
conclude it is "intentionally infected".  It's just the wrong terminology.

Dave Harsh                    Cincinnati, OH

Practical Joke on John Glenn:  When the space shuttle lands, everybody put
on ape suits.  Pass it on.




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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:37:05 -0500
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: Question about yeast nutrient

I have some yeast nutrient (I think it's di-amonium phosphate) that I
bought for stuck fermentations and have never used.  Now I am wanting to
make my first mead and the stuff looks and smells pretty nasty.  Not
surprisingly, it smells like amonia.  I know the smell wasn't that strong
when I bought this about 2 years ago, and it was a dry light brown powder.
It hasn't turned to goo or anything, but it's moist kind of like brown
sugar in consistency.  This is stored in a relatively dry location (not a
basement) so I am not sure if there is some mosture pickup (it's in a small
zip lock) or if the chemical is breaking down somehow.

So, is this still OK to use?  I would just buy some more but it's over 100
miles to the nearest homebrew shop.  I have looked everywhere on the web
for mead info and nobody talks about this stuff going bad.

Thanks,

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie Malt Mashers, Muncie, IN




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:21:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Stephen Cavan <cavanst at duke.usask.ca>
Subject: Belgian candi

Although I agree with the observations that have been made that all 
refined sucrose is the same no matter the source, this only applies if the
refining is very pure. I recall from school chemistry that refined table
is sugar is one of the purest chemicals available to people, and on this
point Belgian Candi differs. My Belgian candi is 95% sucrose, so what is
the remaining 5%? How does that affect the end result? I know two
fanatical Belgian brewers, one of whom grew up there, and one who visited
long enough to become fanatical. They both insist that table sugar does
not work, that it lacks something. They are looking for nuances and
perhaps that is the answer.

Nuances are by definition small touches. That 5% unknown is a small touch,
but to some a critical touch. Some people don't notice that nuance and
would waste their money looking for it. In a similar way, a British Bitter
made with Maris Otter has something for me that the same beer brewed with
Harrington 2-row lacks. I notice that nuance, but many people don't.

My thoughts anyway, Steve



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:35:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Thomas Fawcett (TF) malts

"George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> asked:

No, but as I am interested in malted oats for recreation of a midieval
recipe, I am looking into them.  They have a web page:

http://www.fawcett-maltsters.co.uk/welcom.htm

BTW, based on my experience with 50% home malted oats in a 1.096 unhopped
ale (the aforementioned midieval recipe), I would suggest that malted oats
really do add an oily mouthfeel.  About 10w40 in the case of this
particular brew!  No kraeusen in the fermenter, however, so a lower level
than 50% would seem to be a good idea for head retention in a conventional
modern brew.  There is one brewery in UK which makes and exports to the US
an oat malt stout, which they claim is unique.  In my search for malted
oats, I checked with several maltsters in US and UK and came up empty.
Arcadian Brewery in western Michigan makes an oat malt stout which uses
Engllish flaked oats that are referred to as malted on the bag, but
communication with the mastster made me doubtful.  They said they had no
enzymatic power.  I think Fawcett's malted oats would be a nice ingredient
at, say, 10% in a stout.


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:51:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: More malting questions

Home maltster Ian Lyons <ilyons at science.adelaide.edu.au> asks

>Most of you won't know that when malted grain gets to you it has had the
>tufty rootlets removed!  Question is:  why is it removed?  (my guess is
>that they contain lots of (irrelevant) proteins and little starch).  And
>what is the technical term for tufty rootlets.

I think it is because they are just messy trash.  Very dusty. The proper
name is "culms."  From OED:

culm 4, var. come sb.2

       1940 in Chambers's Techn. Dict. 215/1.

       1953 Word for Word (Whitbread & Co;) 17/1 Culms (or Coombes), the
rootlets which are sieved from the
       malt at the end of the malting process; they are used for poultry
and cattle food.

And:

come koum, kum, , sb.2 Now chiefly dial. Also 5 pl. comys, 7 coom, 9 coomb,
comb. [Known only from 15th
c., but app. cognate with mod.G. keim in same sense, and thus repr. an OE.
*cm:-OTeut. type *kaimo- in ablaut
relation to *kmo-, *kmon-, whence OHG. chm, chmo. It has app. 
been
sometimes confused with prec.; cf. come
v. in sense 14. ]

The radicle of barley or other grain which in malting is allowed to develop
to a certain point, and is then dried up by the process of roasting, and
afterwards separated from the malt. In earlier quots. the acrospire was
perhaps included.

       C. 1440 Promp. Parv. 89 Comys of malte [1499 commys], pululata.

       1615 Markham Eng. Housew. ii. vii. (1668) 171 You shall rub it [the
Malt] exceeding well between your
       hands, to get the Come or sprouting clean away.

       1615 Markham Eng. Housew., ii. vii. (1668) 171 The falling off of
the come or sprout when it is throughly
       dryed.

       1671 Grew Anat. Plants i. i. 3 In Corn [the Radicle] is that Part,
which Malsters, upon its shooting forth, call
       the Come.

       1783 Ainsworth Lat. Dict. (Morell) i. Come, small strings of malt.

       1872 Oliver Elem. Bot. ii. 279 The sprouted radicles (called coombs
or chives) are broken off and separated.

       1888 W. Somerset Word-bk. s.v. Combings, In the process of malting
each corn of barley grows a very
       distinct root-called combings or combs.


I'll bet that's more than you wanted to know!

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:53:58 -0500
From: David Peters <dpeters3 at ford.com>
Subject: Kegging

I am in the process of setting up kegging operations.  I have procured a
freezer for lagering.  This limits me in the space available for
dispensing.  I do not have the room to set a separate refrigerator for
dispensing along with a bar in the basement.

So, along with the freezer that I bought used came an old Pepsi
dispensing unit.  Chiller and all included.

I plan to set up the kegs under the bar, run them through the Pepsi
chiller and dispense them from the bar.

I would appreciate any feedback on 
1. The system as described
2. Leaving kegs at room temperature (68-70)
3. Pressure required to dispense in these conditions
4. Has this type of setup been used successfully
5. Other words of wisdom on the suggested system

TIA


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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:09:52 -0600
From: Carl Wilson <carl_w at prodigy.net>
Subject: Brew Clubs in Oklahoma

I'm looking for any brewing  clubs in Oklahoma, and southwestern
Oklahoma in particular.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.


carl_w at prodigy.net
Carl Wilson




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:11:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer Pinball

This is a bit wide of topic, so I'll be brief.  A pretty good, FREE
pinball game from Dommelsch Bier, with a beer theme:

http://www.dommelsch.nl/flipper/flipper.html

Knock down beer bottles, hit bar stools, etc.  Good graphics, decent
action and sound.  As far as I can tell (my Dutch isn't very good)
they don't send you any beer for a high score.

tim
(In no way connected to Dommelsch.  Haven't even tried the beer.)

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:06:53 -0500
From: Delano DuGarm <dugarm at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Classic American Pilsner

Gordon Strong asks:

>Are there any credible commercial versions of this style (particularly
>in the midwest)?  One of the perks of judging (and brewing for that
>matter) is getting to sample these little-known styles.  But I'm
looking
>for examples that might be more accessible to non-brewers/judges.

One example might be Saranac's new "Traditional Lager."  I get some
grainy corn sweetness from it, though I think the hopping a bit low.
The only place I've found it is in the Saranac 12 beers of Christmas 12
pack, though.

Delano DuGarm
Arlington, Virginia
dugarm at mnsinc.com



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Date: 6 Nov 1998 13:08:00 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Oxidation


HBD-	
The last few brews I have submitted for evaluation and contests have been
dinged for oxidation flavors.  I must have a high tolerance for oxidation
flavors (even though I have picked it up at a few micros, and publicly
announced it in this forum), because I don't pick it up in my own fresh beers.
 I recently tried a few bottles of 1+ year old light brews I brewed a while
back and had sitting around.  Sure enough, I could taste it now (carboardy,
sherry like flavors), when I couldn't pick it up when the beer was younger.
So that got me to looking at my process to find the possible sources.  I don't
think I have HSA problems, as I don't transfer the mash, splash or muck about
much with the mash.  Recirculation and sparging is done with care, as is
transfer to the boil pot.   My Great HBD Palexperimental Ale also got nailed
for oxidation (I couldn't taste it) and that was minimal sparge, and no
transfer to secondary.  The only thing I can think of is the bottling step
(OK- I think about sex a lot, too).  I don't try to minimize the little bit of
gurgling that takes place when I use my bottling wand (I know, I know- take
off the skirt, and start kegging......I will someday).
Anyway, I wonder how important that little gurgle gurgle is.  The last two
batches I bottled I did things a little differently:  I prepared the priming
solution as usual, and instead of transferring to a bottling bucket with the
primings, I used a syringe to get the required amount of primer into each
bottle.  I know that bottle priming isn't exactly cutting edge, and takes a
bit longer, but by using a solution, the bottling wand no longer gurgles when
I fill the bottles.
What are our thoughts on this as oxidation avoidance behavior, and where else
in the process might I look for reducing oxidative opportunities?

Eric Fouch	
Bent Dick SherryShop
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:28:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bayard W. Wenzel" <biomorph at moloch.mse.tay.dec.com>
Subject: dark candi sugar

Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU> said:

  Now, if you are making a dubbel and want a darker candi sugar, you have
  the choice of caramelizing some table sugar yourself, or buying some.  As
  posted a few days ago, doing it yourself and getting the degree of
  caramelization just right is tricky, so buying the real thing might be the
  best way to go. 

in my experience, caramelized sugar and dark candi sugar are not
the same thing. if you taste the difference between dark candi sugar
and light candi sugar, you'll note that the flavour difference is
very subtle (at least for the candi sugar i've acquired in the
past). caramelized sugar, on the other hand, has an intense flavour.

the closest thing i've found to dark candi sugar is jamaican burnt
sugar, this black syrup that's kinda like dark candi sugar extract-
all the flavour and colour, much less of the sweetness. i think
that, if you mix this stuff with cane sugar it'll give you what
you want. the right amount for a dubbel is probably in the
neighborhood of 6 tablespoons for a 5 gallon batch (along with
a pound or so of cane sugar), but take note- i have not tried
this much. proceed with an adventurous mindset.

as for making caramel, i found a recipe for such in 'the joy
of cooking', which was reasonably easy to expedite. and downright
tasty! i won't use it for brewing, but it sure makes a nice
snack.

 -bayard



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:58:17 -0500
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: pronunciation



If someone here wants to make some money, write a book of nothing but beer
and brewing world related terms, and how to correctly pronounce them.  I
can't tell you how many times I mispronounced trub and wort when I first
started.  Then you get into the German and Belgian words...   ...forget
about it.  I have never seen such a book, and I imagine that I am not the
only one who would buy one.

Pete




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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:13:55 -0500
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: wyeast 1028/cold break question

        
Hi all,

Seeking a bit of advice on a couple of questions:

First, I brewed an ale last night using wyeast 1028 London Ale. It's the
first I've used the yeast.  I popped the package Tuesday night, fully
swelled by wednesday AM so I pitched into 16 oz 1.020 starter, Thursday AM I
pitched that into a full quart starter. Starter at this time smelled great,
beery and bready.  Thursday 10:30 PM or so pitched the kreusening quart plus
starter into the beer.  Starter had an evident green apple aroma
(acetylaldehyde, no?)  Pitched anyway.  I believe that this is a normal
fermentation byproduct undesirable in high levels.  So my question is
whether this is a sign that the finished beer will excessively display this
characteristic? Assuming (for now) it is not evidence of infection what
could be done to minimize it?  Is this a normal characteristic of the the yeast?

Second, I've noticed on many occasions little break material in the wort
after using my immersion chiller to bring it down to around 75F.  This in
about 20 min. Then, after moving to the carboy and pitching yeast, and
shaking vigorously, lo and behold about an hour later we see huge globules
of break settling out.  How come I didn't see it in the pot? Does the
aeration of the wort promote coagulation?  Do most of you wait an hour for
break to fully form and settle to move to another container for
fermentation?  This seems to happen with all kinds of different grain bills,
but the net result is I always seem to end up with large amounts of break
material in my fermenters.  BTW, sometimes I use irish moss, sometimes I
don't.  I'm thinking perhaps I should add it earlier in the boil than the
usual last 10 minutes or so. Also, my beers *always* have chill haze.
Thoughts? Private email is fine, your choice.

Thanks to everyone for answering my questions when I have so little to offer
in return!

- --Andrew
andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:30:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <hogenmiller at yahoo.com>
Subject: Smoked Brown Ale

To the Brewing Collective:

   About a year ago in Phoenix, Arizona I had a brown ale at the
Coyote Springs Brewing.  This brown ale had a nice faint residual
smokiness.  This brought on the idea to try to replicate this beer.
    I have in mind a base of a solid English Brown Ale with some
peated smoke malt added to give it this nice smooth smokiness.
    How much smoked malt is recommended to give it a background of
smoke and not end up being a British Rauch Bier.

Mark Hogenmiller
hogenmiller at yahoo.com
Merrimack Valley Brewer exiled in Southern Maryland



 

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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:59:59 -0500
From: "Kelly C. Heflin" <kheflin at lucent.com>
Subject: Cold Fermenting

I'm doing my first "real Lager" this week. Put it in the fridge right after
pitching a very active cold yeast starter. I've got it in the fridge at
between 45 & 50 degrees. I bought a fridge controller. The fridge is rarely
on due to the outside air temp. I'm worried it could easily get too cold in
there. It was down to 43 early this morning inside the fridge. I've heard of
using a light bulb to warm up the inside...
Any tips on this..

Also the ferment is going very slowly. I suppose this is normal, I've never
had any luck at all with cold ferments, but I never tried it with a cold
grown starter before. It has a great looking thick foamy head, but the
bubbling of the airlock is rather slow. I guess I wont know till I take a
sample.

kelly
Kelly C. Heflin
kheflin at lucent.com
(732) 957-3055
Room 2B-409
200 Laurel Ave.
Middletown, New Jersey
07748




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:41:54 -0600 
From: Jeff Pursley <JPursley at Tulsa.E2M.net>
Subject: HERMS and RIMS

I'm new to the HBD and I love it.  After three years of extract brewing
I am considering the leap to all-grain.  Therefore, I read with great
interest the postings about all-grain brewing systems.  So, if the many
experienced and learned brewers will suffer my ignorance: what is
HERMS-RIMS???  

Jeff Pursley
Brewing in the land of 3.2 Beer
Tulsa, Oklahoma




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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:57:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Widmer Hefewiezen Yeast

I wrote:
> >I don't believe this is true.  Widmer has been very proud of using
> >their Alt strain and keeping it in the bottle.  I've cultured from the
> >Widmer Hefeweizen bottle, and used it in several brews all with great
> >results.

> This goes back a couple of years, so they may have changed but I doubt
> it. According to Kurt Widmer, they DO add a different yeast to their
> Hefe. 
>
> Brett Gober

Brett, either you're memory is lapsing, or Kurt has been talking out
both sides of his mouth.  From the Widmer web page (www.widmer.com),
and the words of Kurt Widmer ...

"We like the profile created by leaving our Hefeweizen unfiltered and
natural. We bottle and keg our Hefeweizen right from the fermentation
tank and believe this allows you to taste more of the bier's unique
flavors."

"Our yeast came from Germany and is a Bavarian Alt bier yeast."

"I simply went over there, reviewed my brewing plans with a director
(Prof. Dr. Geiger); he recommended one strain plus the strain of Zum
Uerige in D|sseldorf. I gave him a check and they sent it by air to
Portland."

Like I said, I've had great success with this strain, as have many
others.  It's quickly becoming one of my favorites.

 -SM-


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:09:35 EST
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: Kit Beer Questions

Bill Wible asked:

>How does one figure out hop usage when using one of these kits?  Assuming
>you can obtain a bittering measurement in a useable format, do you count
>that just as bittering and still add your own flavor/aroma hops?  Do you
>reduce hop usage all around?

>Has anyone used a Brewmaster Stout kit?  Any advice?  

I own a homebrew supply and use up old kits quite frequently.  They're great
for a quick, easy batch of beer.  I have not used the Brewmaster kits, but I'd
do it the same as any other.  My standard procedure is to use 2 cans (6-8
pounds total), boil for 20-30 minutes, and add aroma hops to the final 5
minutes.  I find the bitterness level is adequate with what's in the kit.
Light to medium bitterness, I would say, depending on the kit style.  However,
the boil will drive off aromatics, so additional flavoring/aroma hops are
required.  I usually use 1 - 1.5 ounces for the last 5-10 minutes of the boil,
and sometimes dry hop.  

Bill Wright
Juneau, AK


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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:15:33 -0600
From: Brad Plummer <big-wing at jump.net>
Subject: Hey Fridge Guy.  A quick Hot/Cold question

Hi, Forrest (and other refrigeration brewers).

A question for you, if you please.

Some background:
I am ramping up for brewing season.  In the past, I lived in Houston where 
I didn't have to worry about low temps in the garage.  I had an old 
single-door fridge with a Johnson external thermostat.  Life was good.  I 
only brewed ales.  No sweat.  I stopped brewing for a while and then moved 
to Austin (Texas).  I caught the brewing bug again and since I kept all my 
equipment, I thought it would be an easy re-entry.  After several months I 
plugged the old fridge in and found out it had gone South.  It was really 
ratty and it found a new home at the local dump (legally, of course).  I 
was torn between replacing it with another old refer or going the new, 
small chest freezer route.  Yet I ramble on.  Anyway, I bought a new. 
7.2-c.f. chest freezer.  I plan to build a collar on it to lift the lid so 
I can get one carboy and two cornies in it (I use cornies for secondary 
ferments).  I installed the Johnson external thermostat and again, all was 
right in the world.  That is until the temps in the Austin area started to 
dip.  Hey, 45F is cold for Texas. :^)    I'm getting ready to brew this 
weekend and the garage chest freezer is showing an internal temp of 65F, 
and dropping.  The Johnson is set at 68 and it had been holding that just 
great, as long as the outside temp was higher.  I was a good boy and 
searched the archives before posting this.  I found some HBDs where you had 
made some comments on thermostats and even went so far as to recommend the 
Ranco ETC-111000-000.  I went to the Grainger web site and found the 
thermostat but there is no detailed description.

Finally.  The Question:
Does the ETC thermostat handle two outputs?  One for electrical power to 
the freezer and the other for a heat source?  Am I woofing up the wrong 
tree?  What to do? What to do?  Please sell me a clue.  Do I need two 
thermostats: One 'Open on rise' and the other 'Close on rise'?  What can I 
use as a heat source?  Remember, it is a small cavity.

Thanks, in advance.

Brad Plummer
Georgetown, Texas

Brewing, Shooting, and Motorcycling.  My wife thinks I have too many 
hobbies.  Funny.  So do all my girlfriends. :^)



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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:53:21 EST
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Plastic Quick Connect Source

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:38:41 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Pumps and Plumbing

Dave writes:

<<<Wayne (WayneM38 at aol.com) relates that he uses quick disconnects,
norprene high temp hose and braided (I assume again high temp hose).>>

Dave:
The 3/8 ID braided outlet hoses are thick walled, food grade, rated at 170
degrees. Home Depot  at  .65/ft. All three hoses are connected to the pump side
with hose barbs and ss clamps.  The working-side hose ends have the female
body connector. All other ball valves/fittings have male insert connectors to
save a few $. They are less expensive.
 (Just a side note, that 3/8 braided hose slips over the smaller tube end of
one of those orange carboy caps and makes for minimum wort exposure when
pumping cooled wort from brew kettle to carboy.  No fruit flies diving into
fermentor. Just snap it on the carboy and pump away into the sealed
fermentor.)

<<First I'd like to ask him to post the specifics of these quick
disconnects (where he got them, how much they cost, etc.). >>

Connects were purchased from Moving Brews. Check my post, satisfied customer,
etc. Sorry don't have their web info at finger tips, but a web search will get
you there. Complete connects were approx  $14-$18 each.  Check web site for
price and connector list. Bought pump there too. Owner Bill Stewart was very
helpful. I used high temp (250 degree) connectors for the intake and brew
kettle, regular temp (170 degree) for all others. They are interchangeable.

I selected high temp connects for brew kettle and norprene hose for the pump
intake for a few design reasons:

I use boiling or near boiling water/ wort to sanitize pump, hose and HERMS
coil during my brew day.  I enjoy making beer but do not want to compromise
safety for a few extra dollars. I waited until budget allowed the high temp
connects. Plus it is a hobby.  Ever price a graphite fly rod?

Second, I see the garden hose variety connectors suggested all the time.
I have worked as a horticulturist for the past 20 years and my biggest
soakings using watering equipment came from this type of connector popping
apart. The RIMS pumps we use only develop about 10 lbs of pressure, but with
200 + degree liquids?  Call me chicken....  I don't like them for that
application.

The final reason for using this type of connector is that it does not clog
with grain bits and offers little flow resistance.  Air or hydraulic type
connectors have an internal shut off design that can trap particles and not
close completely and extra parts reduce flow.

The plastic quick connectors work great.  I can set up my transportable system
in a few mins.  Fast, easy to clean, have replaceable O ring, don't leak and
are made in the good old US of A.  You can not buy them at Home Depot so they
are 'relatively' expensive.

Down side of this type of 'flow through' quick connector is just that.
They do not shut off when you disconnect them.  A ball valve must be installed
when there is any fluid pressure on the other side of connector.  Design your
system fitting placement accordingly. 
I brew outside so a few drops on the back walk are not a problem. Ants love
wort!!

Add these connectors to the '1001 ways to design a RIMS brewing system' book.

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee



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---