---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  HELP-low attentuation (Timo Peters)
  Re: Homebrew kegging? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: filling bottles from kegs (Jeff Renner)
  filling bottles from kegs (Rod Prather)
  Potato Beers ("John W. Rhymes")
  AlK's Book / Counter-Pressure Bottler (Ken Schwartz)
  AHA not HBD (AlannnnT)
  Moldy malting rye (Tom Herlache)
  first wort hopping (again?!) (Breadnale)
  re: filling bottles from kegs (Tim Anderson)
  filling bottles from kegs (Rod Prather)
  Smoke Peated v.s. Smoked (was liquid smoke) (Rod Prather)
  Michael Jackson and Conan O'Brian (johnsosm)
  Sanatizing (Indian118)
  books and such (Dave Sapsis)
  Chill haze - what's the deal (James_E_Pearce)
  Thanks from a newbie ("Darren Robey")
  Re: Al K's Book ("Bill Splaine")
  1998 Homebrewing Book of the Year (Kyle Druey)
  Protein Rest Review (Kyle Druey)
  Re: Off-tastes from Goldings ("Chris Pittock")
  Acronyms?  Is there a FAQ somewhere. (Rod Prather)
  Paul's Epistle ("Scotty, Richard")
  Paul Gatza's fable (Steve Jackson)
  Re: Off topic question regarding lead.... (Jeff Renner)
  CAP & Bavarian yeast (John Varady)
  Blackened Voodoo ("Mercer, David")
  The German 'R' correction ("Alan McKay")
  air/oxygen/pure oxygen (Kim Peterson)
  Malting Rye and Oats ("Robert D. Dittmar")
  Re:  Fries (Danny Breidenbach)
  Roller mill/Bad Beer/Cider (Eric.Fouch)
  stolen recipes ("Robert C. McDonald")
  AHA and L'il Apple (pbabcock)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:19:57 +0100
From: Timo Peters <tpeters at zfn.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: HELP-low attentuation

hello brewers!!

I have problems with my apparent attentuation.
whether I brew a lager or an ale all my beers suffer from low
apparent attentuation. For a pils it is about 66% (12 deg B start, 4 deg

B end)
and a current
old ale stops fermentation with only 54%. this high remaining extract
leads
to a sweet beer, uncommon for the desired style. for the pils I would
expect
at least 73% apparent attentuation.
after mashing I controll starch conversion with jodine, it is okay!

I would like to discuss the following mistakes, other
possibilties are welcome:

 - underpitching!! I propagate  my yeast from permanent cultures.
    first I use slants to re-stimulate them, then pitch in a 2 liter
flask and
    wait for the peak of fermentation, pitch the wort.
    I do not shake the culture very often to dissolve some oxygen to
increase
    yeast count

 - not enough oxygen prior to fermentation.
   after pitching I shake my fermentation vessel very vigorously to
dissolve oxygen.
   that is all, no sterile air or pure oxygen from a pressure bottle.

 -  not enough stirring during mashing process could be responsible for
decreasing
    amylase (beta!!) activity due to high temperatures on the bottom
that destroys the enzyme.
    this leads to high unfermentable dextrine levels resulting in an
early fermentation stop.

the first an the second mistake describe fermentation problems, both
causing low active yeast levels.
on my next batch I will try the usage of pressurized oxygen.
for the last mistake it would be useful to stirr the mash more
constantly than I do.
on the other hand I could replace my infusion procedure by decoction.

what do you think about it??

greetings from germany
timo








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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:21:29 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Homebrew kegging?

Brian Morgan <bkm_42 at yahoo.com> worries that artificial carbonation is
sacrilige but wonders how to do it anyway:

Not sacrilige at all.  I've been doing it for at least 15 years, and it's
discussed regularly on HBD.  I'd say it might even be the preferred method
since you get far less sediment.

I generally will secondary the beer in a carboy or extra keg and then rack
the entirely sediment-free beer into the serving keg.  To carbonate it you
can either hook it up to serving pressure appropriate for your style and
temperature and wait, or to high pressure and wait less time.  Or shake it
under high pressure and wait even less time.  I've carbonated kegs in a
less than an hour this way.  As a matter of fact, I'll be brewing a dark
oat malt winter warmer/porter Monday for a Christmas Eve party that I'll
probably be kegging 12/24 afternoon, just to give it maximum clearing time
(the oat malt just arrived or I'd have started earlier).

You can check the archives for past discussions on people's preferred
methods.  Some people have even built stands or rockers for shaking.  If
I'm carbonating a corny, I will roll it back and forth on the floor or sit
down and lay it across my knees and rock it back and forth.  For a Sankey
keg, I'll either roll it on its side or shake it on the rim.  Either way,
I'll start at maybe 30 psi, then every once in a while reduce the pressure
to listen how the gas flows at lower pressure.  If it doesn't flow very
fast, I know I'm getting there, so I reduce the pressure to 20, then 10, or
whatever I consider my ultimate target.  If it doesn't flow at all, I know
that I've overshot.  I try not to do this because it is a pain to reduce
carbonation.

You mentioned "commercial kegs."  If by this you mean Sankeys, let me know
if you want me to send you instructions on removing and reinstalling the
valve.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:37:02 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: filling bottles from kegs

"Darren Robey"<Darren.Robey at nre.vic.gov.au> wants to fill bottles for
parties without a CPBF.

Just get a length of plastic hose, like racking hose, that's big enough
diameter to stretch over the spout of the beer "gun" as you call it or
small enough to fit into the spout, and long enough to reach the bottom of
your bottles.  Then fill with the hose right to the bottom of the bottle
and cap.

A cheap, "poor man's bottle filler" can be from a one hole rubber stopper
and a racking cane section that reaches to the bottom of the bottle.
Attach the racking cane length via a short section of hose to the spout as
before and run the cane through the stopper.  To fill, put the stopper in
the neck of the bottle and open the tap.  Beer wil flow until the pressure
in the bottle is equal to the gas pressure.  This helps reduce foaming,
Then slightly break the seal of the stopper in the bottle with your thumb
to bleed out some pressure, which allows the beer to flow slowly.  It takes
practice, but people have reported success.

Some hints - to minimize foam (although a little is good so you can cap on
foam and minimize air space), I put the bottles in the freezer first so the
beer doesn't foam up as much.  This also works better with very cold beer.
You'll lose some carbonation, so you may want to slightly overcarbonate the
beer so the bottled beer is appropriately carbonated.  Use big bottles so
you don't have to fill so many.

Beer bottled like this will likely suffer from  oxidation if it is kept too
long, but it certainly works for parties.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:22:44 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: filling bottles from kegs

>but I was after any advice for filling with my normal beer gun.

I saw a little doodad last week, don't remember the name.  If you don't mind
2 liter bottles.  This little cap goes on the top of the bottle and allows
you to hook up a ball lock CO2 connector.  You can carbonate right in the 2
liter with 13 psi.  The shop owner raved about it.





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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:47:09 +0000
From: "John W. Rhymes" <jwrhymes at mindspring.com>
Subject: Potato Beers

If you've considered making a beer with potatoes, now is the time. 
The Heart of Dixie Brew-Off will be held on March 13, 1999, with 
Potato Beers as our special category in honor of St. Patrick's Day.

Last year's winners were a Sweet Potato Stout, Slavic Taterbrau
(Baderbrau clone), and Kolsch de Terre, all of which scored 36 or
higher.  Be creative -- the only restriction is that 20% of the
fermentables must come from potatoes.

Details about the competition are available at our web site at
http://www.bham.net/brew/brew-off-1999.html.  Entries must be 
received by March 6, 1999.

John W. Rhymes -- Birmingham, Alabama
jwrhymes at mindspring.com


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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:01:11 -0700
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: AlK's Book / Counter-Pressure Bottler

Brander wrote (about Al Korzonas' "Homebrewing Vol I"):

"I have another suggestion though.   The book is not really sold in
stores,
and it should be.  Why don't we all (those of us who like it, and want
to
support a good book, and a good author) go down to our suppliers/home
brew
shops/grain temple  and tell them about it and encourage them to stock
it."

In addition to asking them to carry it on the shelf, consider this
suggestion too.  Our HB store (Brew It Yourself) made it their standard
"kit" book, instead of Charlie's venerable but outdated tome.  Costs a
couple bucks more (isn't NCJHB about $10?) but definitely worth it. 
Would get beginners off to a more "up-to-date" start.

Speaking of beginners, Darren Robey (welcome Darren!) asks:

"I've been kegging for a little while now, but still like to fill some
bottles for taking with me when I don't want to cart a keg around. Now I
haven't got a CPBF at all, but I was after any advice for filling with
my
normal beer gun."

Best cheap-ass filler is to stuff a length of 3/8" OD vinyl tubing into
the beer tap and stick a #2 drilled rubber stopper (beer-bottle size)
over the tubing up near the tap.  Press the stopper into the bottle
(adjust the tubing to just reach the bottom of the bottle) and let'er
rip.  The bottle will fill maybe 1/3 full, then the beer will stop
flowing as the pressure in the sealed bottle increases and equalizes the
keg.  Then carefully "burp" the stopper; the release of pressure will
allow beer to flow from the keg.  Hone your burping technique so the
beer flows slowly and evenly (sorry, that sounds gross).  When the
bottle is **close the tap**, then remove the filler and cap the bottle. 
Failure to close the tap first will result in much beer on your shoes.

And if you DO decide a CPBF is what you want, check my web page (see
below) for a cheap but highly effective home-made CPBF.  You might have
most or even all the parts laying around already!

- -- 
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
kenbob at elp.rr.com
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer


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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:28:38 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: AHA not HBD

I made a typo, I wrote;

> About Charlie and the HBD. Don't you think that they (the HBD) could put
> some homebrewing information on the page? Anyone out there have any pull
> with them?  They should have a how to brew page, shouldn't they? 

Pat replied- 
If you're suggesting we (the HBD) put information on the AHA site, um, no.
We have plenty enough to maintain on our own without adding any of the AHA
woes to it. 

No Pat. I'm sorry, I meant to say the AHA should have homebrewing information
on their website. At least to give the impression of trying to promote the
hobby with service to it's members. I typed HBD instead because I am a parent
and I've inherited insanity from my children.

Alan Talman



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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:23:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Herlache <th22 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Moldy malting rye

Alan posted, with regard to malting rye:

>All this talk about homemalting makes me want to point this out. Malting rye
>at home can be dangerous. I have checked this out in a few published sources
>and they all say the same. There is a toxic spore you can grow on rye, and
>it's allegedly very toxic. I hate to be so vague here.

I'll try to field this one, since it's plant pathology related.  The likely
culprit is Claviceps purpurea, the causal organism of ergot.  This fungus
produces lots of biologically-active alkaloids with a wide range of effects
on humans and other animals.  These include symptoms such as
hallucinations and psycotic symptoms, smooth-muscle contractions and
convulsions, and gangrene from circulatory damage.  Some of the alkaloids
have medicinal uses, for example, in treating migraines.

While rye is the most common host, this fungus also can infect wheat,
triticale, wild grasses and even our beloved barley.  All commercially sold
small grains (wheat, rye, etc.) are screened for the presence of ergot
alkaloids, so I think the risk when malting any grain is pretty low.  Grain
that fails the test is sold at a discount--I have no idea for what use.
I'd suggest simply buying milling-quality grain for malting.

If you're really paranoid (hmm, ergotism?) you could rinse your grain with
bromates, which many maltsters do to limit microbial growth.  This has the
added benefit of extracting tannins (I think) from the husks.  Also, the
growing fungus produces relatively little of the toxic alkaloids, most of
them are produced when the fungus elaborates its resting stage (called
sclerotia).  These are readily visible, as they basically consume a whole
grain when forming.  The sclerotia are horn-shaped, and are purple-black in
color.  Sclerotia can also be separated from the grain by a brine-flotation
technique.  My reference, unfortunately, doesn't specify the specific
gravity of the brine.


Tom Herlache
th22 at cornell.edu




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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:40:38 EST
From: Breadnale at aol.com
Subject: first wort hopping (again?!)

Hey everyone,
I'm a little confused on first wort hopping. I'd like to try it out, but
obviously want to do it right.
Am I correct to understand that you are essentially adding all flavor and
aroma hops as you drain sparge? Does this then mean that bittering additions
are  at the same time as normal (60 min. boil)? 

It seems like everyone is getting favorable results using this technique.
Thanks in advance,
Jim, my beers are better since I started open fermenting, Williams


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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:56:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: filling bottles from kegs

"Darren Robey"<Darren.Robey at nre.vic.gov.au> spake in this wise:
>>>
I know such newbie questions can get a little bornig, but any advice
would be helpful. I've been kegging for a little while now, but still
like to fill some bottles for taking with me when I don't want to cart
a keg around. Now I haven't got a CPBF at all, but I was after any
advice for filling withmy normal beer gun. Any advice Very much
appreciated!
Darren Robey
<<<

I don't have one either, and also don't like to lug kegs.  I'm also
lazy (as any good engineer should be) and try to keep things simple. 
What works for me is to lower the CO2 pressure to just barely enough
to push the beer, and let each bottle sloooooooowly fill.  I still get
a bit more foam than I'd like, so I set it aside while I fill the
others, then come back around to each one and top them off in turn. 
Often, it seems like this could go on awhile, so I make sure no one is
looking and suck out enough foam to finish filling and then cap "on
the foam".  Easy, low tech, and since it's usually beer meant to be to
be consumed a short time later, there's no point in worrying about
oxidation.  Beasties from my lips are another matter, but nobody knows
they caught it from me, so who cares?

By the way, I think _Capping on the Foam_ is a great title for a
heartwarming novel about a struggling young homebrewer who goes from
just trying to make cheap alcohol in his college apartment, to
building a craft beer empire, only to be put out of business by an
evil megabrewer.  Of course it would need a happy ending, because
people like happy endings.  I like happy endings.

tim

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:22:44 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: filling bottles from kegs

>but I was after any advice for filling with my normal beer gun.

I saw a little doodad last week, don't remember the name.  If you don't mind
2 liter bottles.  This little cap goes on the top of the bottle and allows
you to hook up a ball lock CO2 connector.  You can carbonate right in the 2
liter with 13 psi.  The shop owner raved about it.





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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:24:06 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Smoke Peated v.s. Smoked (was liquid smoke)

If you want a smoked brew, I would use smoked malt, about 1/2 to 1 lb.
This is not to be confused with smoked peated malt, I have never used it,
but have heard many horror stories about it.

So what is the difference.  I thought the smoked peated malt was used in
Scotch Ale.  I have also heard that anything over 3% to 5% will definately
mess up your brew.  Being a Scotch lover, I have particular fancy for a true
smoky scotch ale.




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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:18:45 -0600
From: johnsosm <stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Michael Jackson and Conan O'Brian

Alan T. of New York in HBD#2899 comments on being priviledged
to be one of the few people on the planet to have sampled the 
two beers that Michael Jackson mentioned on the Late Nite show
Wednesday, Dec. 9. Well, Alan, sorry to disappoint you, but if
you'll rewind your VCR, you will notice that the FIRST beer
mentioned is Boscos Flaming Stone Beer, brewed right here in 
Nashville, TN, by Chuck Skypeck, and in their Memphis area 
brewpub in Germantown, TN, home of Tennessee's first brewpub.
I don't know if you've had a chance to sample this wonderful
beer made with hot rocks in the kettle, but it is delightful
example of the style and gets good reviews in several of MJ's
books.
Michael was here in town to promote his book at Boscos and we
had the pleasure of talking with him about his appearance on
the show.  Despite what some people may think, he was not upset
by the tone with which Conan addressed him.  He did not feel
ambushed.  Rather, he mentioned that he knew how tongue-in-cheek
Conan can be and approached the whole event as if it were some
sort of boxing match, and managed to get a few jabs in here and
there to let Conan know that he was ready to go a few rounds
with him!

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN




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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:36:27 EST
From: Indian118 at aol.com
Subject: Sanatizing

Hello all,

As I was sanitizing equipment to rack my beer, my roommate came in and looked
at my B Brite container.  Being a Ph.D. chemistry candidate, he always looks
at the ingredient.  He noticed that the active ingredients in B Brite are the
same as those found in common bleach powder.

So I was wondering, has anyone tried bleach powder?  How does it work?  It
could be a much lower cost alternative.

Thanks for the info,
Drew


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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:28:14 -0800
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: books and such

As there has recently been a wee bit a mud tossed toward Michael Lewis,
and not seeing it elsewhere suggested,  might I recommend his book
STOUT, the 10th in the style series from Brewers Publ.

First off, Dr Lewis is a Welshman, not a "Brit", a distinction that
would likely be honorably adhered to if it was you.
Second, while there is certainly reason to question some of Dr. Lewis',
written works, and even more some of the wild things he says, he is a
*very* funny man.
Third, the notion that brewers trained under him at Davis only make
boring beer is nonsense.
Fourth, the stout book is excellent.  And while significant
contributions were done by associates, I think is the best package yet
offered in the series.  Chapter 4 on Tasting is alone  worth the price
of admission.  And frankly, I cannot envision a better way to assess
what stout is than they way he does it in the Appendix.  Just my
'pinyuns here folks. 
Cheers,
- --dave, basking in methane


 


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:28:02 +1000
From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au
Subject: Chill haze - what's the deal

I don't understand all the fuss about chill haze ... doesn't it only appear
when (some) beer is chilled _below_ the proper serving temperature?

James




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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:43:53 +1000
From: "Darren Robey"<Darren.Robey at nre.vic.gov.au>
Subject: Thanks from a newbie


Thanks to all those who gave wonderful informative answers to my questions
abotu filling bottles from a keg. The brew is in the secondry so I'll give
it a go soon.

Darren




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Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:20:19 -0800
From: "Bill Splaine" <bsplaine at sonic.net>
Subject: Re: Al K's Book

Badger wrote:

>I have another suggestion though.   The book is not really sold in stores, 
>and it should be.  Why don't we all (those of us who like it, and want to 
>support a good book, and a good author) go down to our suppliers/home brew 
>shops/grain temple  and tell them about it and encourage them to stock it. 
>Spread the word... I found it much more informative, and useful than 
>Papazian's book (although he does deserve some respect for his work) and 
>recomend it to my freinds.

I don't know where you shop Badger... but it has been in the two supply shops 
I use.  I agree that Vol 2 can't be quick enough...

Bill

- --
Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street 
with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are beautiful.

Bill Splaine                           
Healdsburg, CA


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:51:55 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: 1998 Homebrewing Book of the Year

What do you all think is the best homebrewing book to come out in 1998? 
In 1996 there was Designing Great Beers by Daniels, in 1997 I think it
was a tie between AlK's Homebrewing Volume I and Fix's an Analysis of
Brewing Techniques.  What book from 1998 is the most worthy addition to
the homebrewing library?

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:04:25 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Protein Rest Review

Here is a recommendation for when a protein rest is required (malted
barley only):

No protein rest needed.  Bite some kernels, if they crumble and are not
chewy or steely tipped, then probably no p-rest is needed (Kolbach >=
40).  Many agree that most modern malts fall into this category.

Rest for 30' at 131 F if the kernel is hard (try biting some crystal
malt) or has steely tips (Kolbach < 35).  This will chop up large
proteins into medium proteins to help clear chill haze, then chop some
of the medium proteins into small proteins for yeast nutrients. 
Probably only home made malt and horse feed would fall into this
category.

All other malts, 20' at 135 F.  Bite the kernel, if does not crumble and
is not hard then you are in this gray area (35 <= Kolbach < 40).  To get
an idea at how this kernel would feel when you bite it just take a bite
of an uncooked spaghetti noodle (I am looking for a better analogy
here). Some suggest that some german pils malts fall into this category.

Please post comments...

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:47:50 +1000
From: "Chris Pittock"<Chris.Pittock at nre.vic.gov.au>
Subject: Re: Off-tastes from Goldings


Hi All! An attempted short summary of replies to my post in HBD 2897.

I WROTE: > A quick query re: Goldings hops: Has anyone had phenolic/lactic
tastes in their beers from a single late-hopping addition of Goldings?
[snip!] Theory: Have I extracted such a narrow fraction of the hop
taste/aroma that it's "out of context"? Am I better off with smaller
additions at -10 min, -5 min and 0 min, with some dry hops as well?

The two batches have the following in common: the dry yeast used, the
Goldings late hopping, no real effort made in chlorine reduction (see
below), and the brewer ;-)   In brief I got the following answers: "yes",
"maybe" and "no - don't" to the Q's posed above. Suggested causes below:

INFECTION...?
Jeff Renner (nerenner at umich.edu) suggests wild yeast/bacterial infection.
I'd like to think that *I* don't have an infection problem... that's what
*other* brewers (who aren't as fastidious and *I* am about sanitation) have
problems with... ;-)  But seriously... it's a real possibility.

CHLORINE...?
John Penn (HBD 2899; John.Penn at jhuapl.edu) mentions chlorine as possible
cause... I live in a country area where they make up for the lack of
high-tech water processing by using more chlorine. The potential for
chlorine being a problem is high - although I'd expect the more medicinal
tastes of chlorophenolics rather than just phenolic tastes... and to have
had probs with all other batches. Of course, eliminating chlorine will help
overall quality anyway. I'd prefer not to pre-boil (I currently heat the
req'd 70 litres of water to 80 deg C on brew day for mash in and mash out -
any good?).
QUESTION: Which type of filter/s can help drive off chlorine and give a
reasonably fast flow rate?

HOPS...?
Another HBD'er (Ian Smith - isrs at cmed.com) says he's had some prob's with
late hopping giving tannic/metallic tastes which dissipate with ageing. I
have the opportunity to test this one...
Also,Steve (paddockwood at sk.sympatico.ca) reckons: "While I have never had
lactic notes from EKG, I think phenolic or grassy notes may well happen.
Our club just sampled what happens with too much late adding of EKG in
particular". Steve then echoes George Fix (recently) and De Clerck (1957)
by saying that "all late additions are at best useless and at worst bad".
Does this mean kettle hops only or dry hops too!?

My next batch, an all-grain IPA, is going to secondary today ( no Goldings
and no late additions, although I plan some dry hopping). If general
sanitation is the problem - then I should get the same problem (as I will
if chlorine is the problem). I used WYeast American Ale II. My science
training is shining through... I changed at least three variables... then
again I may have at least three problems!

Thanks to those (mentioned above) who replied to my post! Finally I give
Jeff the last word (regarding my cool ferment   at  20-24 deg C: "That would
be 68-75F, which we here in the cooler climes call a warm ferment!".
Agreed, but I call it cool where it's 42 deg C in the shade and no air
con... (plus my beer fridge has ***food*** in it...)

Chris Pittock (Don't send Xmas cards, send our Janitors a HBD Server
donation!)




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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:17:21 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Acronyms?  Is there a FAQ somewhere.

Does anyone have a FAQ on this echo and acronyms used with their meanings.
I know most of them are common beer acro's.  Although I have understood a
lot of the basic chemistry for brewing for years, I am not that savvy to the
hobby and would like to be able to understand some of the discussions here a
bit better.

Examples:  CAP, FWH, AOB, AIK, NHC, BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program
got that one), GABF, BOS, AIK, HMWP, MMWP, LMWP and others.

Definitions for terms like yeast attenuation, protein rest and some of the
more commonly used concepts  would also be nice for those of us who haven't
read half a dozen books and just want to get started.  Or in my case,
restarted.





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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:23:06 -0700
From: "Scotty, Richard" <rscotty at uswest.com>
Subject: Paul's Epistle

Paul Gatza posts an account of the AHA that is much too lengthy to quote
here.

Its a wonderful story - I wonder if he has anything in the Non-Fiction
category?

Richard Scotty
Chief Mash Mixer  
The Crapshoot Brewery


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:44:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Paul Gatza's fable

I wanted to express my appreciation to Paul Gatza for his entertaining
little fable on the past, present and future of the AHA. I think he
correctly recognized some of the problems with the organization and
the current hurdles that stand in the way of curing what ails the AHA.
The sort of responsiveness and understanding expressed by Paul here is
the first and most important step toward making the AHA relevant again.

But there is a bigger challenge the organization faces, and one that I
have yet to see an answer for (to be fair, I have no idea what the
solution to the following problem is myself). Despite all that is
listed in the promotional materials, charter, etc., the benefits of
AHA membership for 95 percent of the homebrewers begins and ends with
a magazine. If you like Zymurgy, than the membership is worth it. If
you find Zymurgy to be a waste of time, as I and many other
homebrewers do, than there really is no incentive to drop $30-$35 (or
whatever membership -- read subscription -- fees are these days).

I'm not going to use this space to ask for changes to the magazine. I
know firsthand how difficult and time-consuming it is to completely
overhaul a publication's editorial focus. Suffice it to say, there are
other magazines out there that meet my needs.

The biggest challenge the AHA is going to face is providing something
else to make the cost of a membership worthwhile. Very few people are
going to the GABF, so the members-only tasting and reduced admission
fee perks don't mean anything to most of us. Ditto for legalization
efforts, since most of us live in states where our hobby is legal.
That leaves most of us with the choice of whether the magazine is
worth it or not. More and more of us are choosing the second option.

As I said, I really don't have a suggestion for what that "something
else" is. All I know is, until that something else is found to add
value to an AHA membership, I'll be spending my money on a magazine
that better suits my needs instead of a Zymurgy subscription disguised
as an AHA membership. I suspect many, many others will be as well.

 -Steve in Indianapolis





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:11:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Off topic question regarding lead....

"Dawn Watkins" <Dawn.Watkins at mci.com> asks:

>Does anyone know if leaded crystal is safe to use?

There was a good bit of publicity a few years ago of results of good
research that showed that wine picked up toxic amounts of lead when stored
for some time in lead crystal.  I'm sure it is at least in part pH
dependent, so the pH of your cordial may play a part.  I use my crystal
decanter for serving port or sherry, then return them to the bottle.
Usually.  Sometimes I get lazy.  Since children are most at risk of lead
poisoning, I would recommend not serving children alcoholic beverages that
have been kept in lead crystal. ;-)

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:32:35 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: CAP & Bavarian yeast

I hopped on the CAP bandwagon this weekend and made one, so I was pleased to
read G. Fix's post about using American 2 row and FWH'ing with noble (abiet
American) hops.

While researching which yeast I should use, I read in Dr. Fix's book, AoBT,
that in the earlier part of this century, brewers in the Midwest used the
Bavarian lager strain extensively. This makes me wonder about its place in
history in the brewing of CAP's. Would a pre-pro pilsner have used this yeast?

Here is my recipe, which I am calling "Flapper's Delight" with a nod towards
the wild women of the 20's and what would have probably been a style they
would be drinking during a Jazz laden lavish night on the town (and with a
slight nod towards the Sugar Hill Gang; hip-hop-hibby-hibby-hop).


Name:   Flapper's Delight            O.G.: 1.055
Style:  Classic American Pilsner   I.B.U.:  36.7
Volume: 14.5 Gallons               A.B.V.:  5.4%

Grains/Fermentables      Lbs    Hops          AAU  Grams  Min
Pale, American 2 Row   21.00    Saaz          3.5  85.00  120
Corn, Flaked            5.00    Tettnanger    4.5  85.00  120
                                Saaz          3.5  30.00   10
                                Saaz          3.5  30.00    0
Yeast: Bavarian Lager
                                Misc. Ingredients   Amt Units
                                Breakbrite         1.00 Teaspoon

Mash in  at  140F for 15 mins, boost to 158F over 15 mins, rest in the high
150's for 60 mins. Batch sparge to collect 16.5 gallons, boil down to 14.5
and chill.


Happy Holiday's

John
- --
John Varady             The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
rust1d at usa.net          http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA            Boneyard Brewing -------- UnReal Ale(R)



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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:10:13 -0800
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Blackened Voodoo

In response to John's opinion that Blackened Voodoo was "possibly the
worst beer I've ever had", Jeff Renner asked, "Was this a fresh sample
and you just don't like the rendition or was it in bad condition?"

Actually, it could have been sample variability. I lived in the New
Orleans area for 20 years - until the early 90's - (Blackened Voodoo
came out during the last part of that) and during that time there were
two things that marked Dixie beers. One was they were EXTREMELY
variable. I am not just referring to a notorious bad batch that hit the
market sometime in the early-mid 80's and almost led to the brewery's
collapse. Simple batch to batch variability for their main lager was
striking throughout the 80's even to my relatively inexperience palate
(correct spelling?). The other thing about Dixie was they changed their
brewers (and I believe owners - although Jeff's post contradicts this)
with revolving door frequency. The end result was you never knew what to
expect when you opened a bottle of Dixie. FWIW, I liked the main lager
(usually)although that may have been influenced by the context in which
I usually drank it (sweating to Rockin Dopsie at the Maple Leaf, or
scarfing down piles of boiled crawfish and fried catfish at Jack
Dempsey's in the 9th Ward.) Blackened Voodoo was not very distinctive,
IMO, so I rarely drank it. The "Light Amber" was surprisingly malty and
flavorful for a "light" beer, and I often drank it, too. Of course, it's
been more than six years since I've had a Dixie beer (living in Seattle
has pretty much wrecked any taste I might have once had for that style
of beer) so my memories of what once was may have no relation to what
now is. Or something like that.

An added memory: Back in the early 80's Dixie had a tap room (maybe now
the tasting room?) in a small corner of the brewery facing Tulane
Avenue. It was open from 3PM to 5PM every weekday and the beer was free.
All you could drink. At the time I was a penniless grad student at
Tulane Medical Center, and the brewery was right on my walk home, so I
stopped in there every chance I could. Even with free beer, in a city
notorious for its alcohol consumption, there were never more than two or
three old codgers from the neighborhood in there on any given afternoon.
But it was a warm, friendly, very low key place, and I missed it when
new management gave it the ax around 1985. 

Now I'm getting all misty eyed. Damn.

Dave in Seattle


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:12:54 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: The German 'R' correction


In HBD 2899 I wrote :

> My phonetics teacher in Koeln told us that the German "R" can be properly
> trilled either on the front of the tongue (more northern) or on the back
of
> the tongue (more southern).  I can't do the front one, but don't have any
> problems with the back one.

I of course got that mixed up.  The front of the tongue is Southern, and the
rear of the tongue is Northern.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay	
 <<...>> 
Norstar Desktop Computing and LAN Solutions
PC Support Prime
amckay at nortelnetworks.com	765-6843 (ESN 395)



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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:49:20 -0600
From: Kim Peterson <kim at nconnect.net>
Subject: air/oxygen/pure oxygen

Am trying to determine what to use to help kick start fermentation. There has 
been conversation here about pure oxygen (99.9%) and ~20-30 second blasts.

What is the need for pure O2 when carboys are shaken vigorously just before 
pitching? Instead of using pure 02 can the small canisters of oxygen for 
welding/cutting found in hardware stores also be used? It would seem that the 
oxygen in this type of tank is greater than the oxygen in air but less than 
pure 02.

Thanx for your thots.



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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:28:09 -0600
From: "Robert D. Dittmar" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Malting Rye and Oats

     Rye malting has become mini-thread in the HBD lately, and I thought I 
     could pass along some information.
     
     I am no expert on the subject, but I recently purchased the new book 
     "Homebrewer's Garden" and it contains some very good and detailed 
     descriptions of home malting.
     
     The claim in the book is that both malting rye AND oats is a dangerous 
     business because they attract butyrifying (sp.?) bacteria that in turn 
     produce butyric acid, a toxic substance.
     
     I don't want to dismiss earlier claims that the danger arises from the 
     fungus ergot, but doesn't that grow on any grain?  I thought some 
     outbreaks of ergot were due to contaminated wheat flour, though I may 
     be mistaken about that.
     
     Rob Dittmar
     St. Louis, MO


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:42:32 -0500
From: Danny Breidenbach <DBreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Re:  Fries

Al wondered about the "French" in french fries.  My 
understanding is as follows:
French fries are actually French-cut fried potatoes.

So it's not who invented them or where they were 
first made --- it's the cutting of the pommes du terre 
that gave the name.  I'd wager the modern day "french 
fry" was invented in the US of A.

And I think McDonald's fried are still better than Burger
King's.  And what do folks think of Michelob's Pale Ale?
I thought it was pretty good, considering.  Price is right,
too.
- --Danny Boy in Ashburn, VA.  closer to Old Dominion
Brewing than to Jeff.
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                        


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Date: 14 Dec 1998 13:43:56 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Roller mill/Bad Beer/Cider


HBD-
I may be a little late on this response, but as Mr. Druey can tell you, Work
Release programs really cramp one's style.
Anyway, regarding malt mills, I purchased a Marga mill three years ago.  It's
an Italian grain mill for crushing and milling various grains used in Italian
cuisine.  With a few adjustments, I increased the adjustablility from 3
settings to 15 settings, motorized it and mounted it on a platform which
straddles a 5 gallon pail.  It does not have a huge throughput, but it is
adequate, especially for $50.  I believe Mr. Burley also employs the use of an
Italian made Marga.

My vote for the worst non-mega beer would also be an SA product.  Their
laughably named "Cranberry Lambic" from a Holiday pack a few years ago.  Don't
know if he still slings this swill or not.  Although Sammy does make a few
good styles, I am maintaining a one-man boycott of his products.  Don't agree
with his politics or brewing/naming philosophies etc.  Basically, I think he
is a Wein.

A cider question (can't seem to get any response from the cider digest) or two:
If fermenting at room temp. does the malo-lactic fermentation take place
simultaneously with the the yeastie fermentation, or does it only happen when
doing spontaneous (no campden) fermentations?  I am a bit concerned of the
"spring malo-lactic fermentation" taking place in bottled product, causing
overcarbonation problems.
Also-  last week I fined my cider with gelatine:  a teaspoon of gelatine
stirred into water at about 190F.  I added the gelatine solution rather hot.
A white milky  precipitate seemed to form upon the addition of the hot
solution. After two days, a milky white coagulated pellicle like floatie was
floating around at the top of the cider.  Did I set some pectins by adding the
gelatine solution hot?  IMCR?  What is the recommended fining agent for
ciders?  Bentonite?

Thanks!

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick CiderShack
Kentwood MI


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:48:15 -0800
From: "Robert C. McDonald" <Bob.McDonald at abanet.org>
Subject: stolen recipes

In HBD 2900, Jason Henning wrote:

>Quite a few people tout Brain Rezac as one of the good guys over at the
AHA. Is he? I wonder. 
>Brian helped Rob Moline further his personnel vendetta against his
former employer, Little Apple Brewing Company. Brian used Rob's stolen
>Big 12 barleywine recipe . . .
>Where would the AHA be had the Little Apple filed suit and won? 

I saw this and remembered Louis Bonham' post in HBD 2575 in which he
expressed the idea that recipes are not protectable intellectual
property.  I agree.  It's highly unlikely Little Apple would have won
such a lawsuit against the AHA for using this recipe based on an
argument it was "stolen property."  Such a case also wouldn't succeed on
a trade secret argument, since the recipe was already public by the time
it was picked up by the AHA.  

Just my 2 cents

Bob McDonald
Washington D.C.


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:12:27 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: AHA and L'il Apple

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Bob McDonald answers Jason Henning's charge with:
" I saw this and remembered Louis Bonham' post in HBD 2575 in which he
expressed the idea that recipes are not protectable intellectual
property.  I agree.  It's highly unlikely Little Apple would have won
such a lawsuit against the AHA for using this recipe based on an
argument it was "stolen property."  Such a case also wouldn't succeed on
a trade secret argument, since the recipe was already public by the time
it was picked up by the AHA."

Moreover, don't forget who it was that actually made the recipe public! It
was their "new head brewer" on AOL. And, from his signature, it could have
been construed that he was acting as an agent of Little Apple. No, Brian
and Rob were not exposed in my (am-not-a-lawyer-nor-do-I-play-one-in-a- 
number-one-daytime-drama) opinion.

Harumph. Uh, yes... (That's lawyer talk for "you can take that to the
bank, I think)

 -p




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---