---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Astringency (Al Korzonas)
  Bottomless bullet magazine ("Spies, Jay")
  co2 evolution (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Re: stuck fermentation? (Jim DiPalma)
  spruce, breakfast oatmeal (B.R. Rolya)
  Spruce beer (Headduck)
  PV=nRT (Lou.Heavner)
  Mailorder Homebrew Store Survey ("Steve Potter")
  Re: A pseudo widget question :-) ("Peter J. Calinski")
  plastic and copper ("Brook Raymond")
  Oxidation at bottling ("Stephen Alexander")
  Large S.S. Italian Brewpots ("S. Wesley")
  Lakeside property (Tom Lombardo)
  Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation ("Stephen Alexander")
  No-sparge brewing (Bob Fesmire) (DGofus)
  Is the Schmidling mill as good as a 6 roller? (Alan McKay)
  Hop Devil Clone Recipe(s) (Charley Burns)
  A tidbit from the Big Boys ... ("Alan McKay")
  re: Kegging ("Alan McKay")
  RE: Beer bullets (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re: maximum alcohol (Jeff Renner)
  Still on bleach acidification ("Eric R. Theiner")
  4th Annual South Shore Brewoff ("Reed,Randy")
  HLT size (Dave Hinrichs)
  Re: AFCHC (Mark Alfaro)
  N2 and bubbles... ("William W. Macher")
  Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis ("George De Piro")
  Beer Wives (Beth Fuchs)
  Homebrew Article ("Bridges, Scott")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:37:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Astringency

I'm still a good three weeks behind in reading HBD, but I'm working on
it.  Sorry about this being so tardy:

Dan writes:
>Michael Beck asks about his astringent porter.  When I first started all
>grain brewing I had a fit with dark beers.  They were all astringent.  I
>found out that if I did not mash the dark grains, but rather mixed them 
>in at the sparge, there was no astringency.  There is little or no starch
>in these grains so they don't need to be mashed anyway.  The one danger in
>doing this of course is that you might forget to add the dark grains.

I think we may have a problem here with what we call certain mouth sensations.
"Astringency" is not something you get from dark grains.  I refer to these
flavours as "sharpness."  Astringency is due to polyphenols (called "tannins"
in layman's terms).  Polyphenol extraction from grains is increased by
temperature and overcrushing, but the main factor influencing polyphenol
extraction is *pH*.  As the pH increases, so does polyphenol extraction.

Ironically, dark malts and grains (like roasted barley, rye and wheat)
are acidic and therefore *decrease* pH in the mash.  Therefore, adding
the dark grains in the beginning of the mash will actually *decrease*
polyphenol extraction and therefore *decrease* astringency.

So, that brings us back to my initial point: namely that it seems Dan
feels that adding the dark grains/malts at the beginning of the mash
increases the "sharpness" (using my term), but that I feel that referring
to this sensation as "astringency" is not correct.

In trying to teach judges the sensation of astringency, I have had them
chew just the skins from about a half-dozen grapes (all at once).  I've
also done this personally, side-by-side with Black Patent malt.  There
were some non-flavour sensations from the Black Patent malt, but they
were clearly distinct from the sensations from the grape skins.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL (soon Lockport, IL)
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

P.S. Want to gain some beer bullets?  Start peeling grapes and feeding
them to your SO.  Your SO gets the peeled grapes (gaining you beer
bullets) and you get to learn what astringency tastes like!


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:29:09 -0500 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Bottomless bullet magazine

All -

Scott Abene (strangely Plaid-fixated) writes in that his wife encourages his
zymurgistic endeavors, aids in the consumption of end products of said
brewing hobby, and asks if there are others similarly blessed.

:-)

My girlfriend (perhaps eventually to be spousal unit) loves brewing, brews
*with* me, prefers beer over wine or liquor or cider or god forbid Zima, and
has expressed interest in *gasp* tackling a batch herself.  Love that girl.
Besides, she lived in Belgium for 2 years studying French and has more
knowledge of Belgian beer styles than half my brew club.  When I relayed to
her the "beer bullet" theory after notifying her of an upcoming Saturday
all-day into-the-night brewery tour with Bawlmer's own Cross Street
Irregulars Brew Club (hon), she said "honey, you know you've got a
bottomless bullet magazine with me".

What more could a brewer ask for?  Life is indeed good.

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:01:55 -0500 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: co2 evolution

collective homebrew conscience_

i'll be brief, since i know i won't be the only one to respond:

pete c. proposed a hypothesis that fermenting beer in a carboy is
continually in contact with as much oxygen as is contained in the air we
breathe.  his analysis disregards the relatively huge volume of carbon
dioxide that constantly evolves from the liquid and dilutes/displaces the
gases in the headspace of the carboy.  i'm sure others will provide far more
detail.

brew hard,

mark bayer


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:21:03 -0500 
From: Jim DiPalma <dipalma at omtool.com>
Subject: Re: stuck fermentation?

Hi All,

In #2944, Dave Riedel asks:

>It seems that I have a stuck ferment, I was wondering if anyone had any
>ideas as to what happened and what to do about it.
>
>17 Jan - made a 9-10 gallon batch of porter:
>	8.6kg HB pale ale
>	550g black patent
>	500g 80L crystal
>	285g DWC caramel pils
>	115g Briess carapils
>	260g chocolate

Dave, I second the advice someone else gave, check your hydrometer
first. It should read 1.000 when placed in distilled water at 60F. Check
your thermometer as well.

Assuming your equipment is OK, the other thing I noticed is that your
grainbill contains a lot of malt that will produce unfermentable sugars.
You've got 785g (~1.75# for the metrically impaired) of various types of
crystal malt, plus 115g of Breiss carapils, aka *dextrin* malt. Don't
know if you've made this particular recipe before, but with the mash
temps you used and the amount of yeast you've pitched, I tend to think
it's done at 1.025 rather than stuck. You may want to tweak this
grainbill for future batches.

Cheers,
Jim


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:23:47 -0500 (EST)
From: br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: spruce, breakfast oatmeal


I don't want to chime in with a "me, too!" on a thread, but I just wanted
to emphasize the fact that spruce essence is powerful!  We brewed an
all-grain spruce beer about 2 years ago and since no one in New York
carries spruce tips (and I assumed that the Botanical Garden wouldn't be
pleased if I harvested tips from their spruces), we used 1 teaspoon of
spruce essence in the bottling bucket to approx. 6 gallons of beer.  At the
time, we thought we were being cautious; instead, we were far too generous
(obvious moral of that brewing session:  test an extract before using it).
I *still* can't drink that beer because just the aroma is enough to knock
me out (and it's mellowed alot).  It's got a huge eucalyptus profile and
seems like it might clear up any nasal congestion (and maybe even clean the
stove top after brewing).  It's always fun to break out a bottle of that at
homebrew meetings, though...


For a quick breakfast malt fix, I use malt extract to sweeten my oatmeal.
Health food shops sell resealable jars of it, so you don't have to deal
with a big can from the homebrew shop.  It's also tasty in coffee, tea, and
on ice cream.



 - BR Rolya
New York, NY





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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:13:09 EST
From: Headduck at aol.com
Subject: Spruce beer

<<I'll take a shot at this one.  Around here, spruce tip homebrews are quite
common.  In fact, the Skagway Brewing Company produces a commercial version
that is very popular.  For those who don't live in evergreen country, spruce
tips are the new growth that occurs on the end of the tree branch in the
Spring.  When they first come out, they kind of resemble a hop cone.  The best
time to pick them is when they're 1"-2" long and still compact (before they
start to open up).  They also freeze well in zip lock bags. >>
<>

I have tried numerous attempts at a spruce beer with extract (made by others).
I have never cared for the results.  The flavor is always too intense and
sometimes mediciney.  I make an annual spruce beer using the new growth from
our blue spruce.  I use approximately 1 quart of spruce needles (new growth as
described above) for every 5 gallons of wort.  I also add them like hops, but
usually add 1/3 at 60 minutes, 1/3 at 30 and 1/3 at the end of the boil.  I
start out with a medium gravity brown ale recipe, but imagine that any lightly
hopped recipe would work.  This has worked very well for me and I am looking
forward to making this years batch.  
Joe Yoder,
Lawrence, KS


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:23:22 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: PV=nRT


     There has been some recent discussion of the ideal gas law and its
     applicability to things other than ideal gases.  I hope this is not
     too far off topic for this august body...

     Prepare to page down.

     PV=nRT is the ideal gas law.  There is no ideal gas, as far as I know,
     although most gases at relatively low pressures and high temperatures
     can be well approximated by this relationship.  The equation is useful
     because of it's simplicity and there are many variations which can
     improve the model for gases which are not too far from ideal.

     *** QDA ***
     Air, pure oxygen, pure nitrogen and many common gases with cryogenic
     boiling points are well approximated as ideal gases at typical ambient
     conditions.  I'm pretty sure freon type refrigerants are non ideal,
     especially at working conditions.  I think that CO2 and helium are not
     very ideal.  I can't recall if halogens (chlorine, fluorine, iodine)
     behave like ideal gases or not.  I hope you don't have much of them in
     your brewery.  I don't have references handy and I haven't worked with
     inert gases in a while.
     *** End QDA ***

     It does not apply to saturated vapors like steam (that is not
     superheated).  When vapor and liquid co-exist, lnP=m/T + b is the
     relationship that defines vapor pressure.  Density (the n/V part) is
     not likely to behave much like an ideal gas.

     And mixtures of gases and vapors are a whole other kettle of hops.

     The AGA and others have more complex models for describing vapors and
     gases for those who need to know.

     And liquids and solids are essentially non-compressible, so pressure
     has essentially no impact on either density or temperature.  However,
     temperature and density are related.  Sometimes even these
     relationships can be complex.  Solids that have more than one solid
     phase or crystalline form, for example, can have very complex
     relationships.

     So please don't be surprised if PV=nRT does not apply to table salt or
     table sugar or DME or crushed malt or wort or.....

     Ref:       1) Properties of Liquids and Gases; Reid, Prausnitz &
                   Sherwood.  (Later editions may have dropped Sherwood.)
                2) any good thermodynamics text (eg Modell & Reid;
                   Balzhiser, Samuels & Eliassen) or physical chemistry
                   text which covers thermodynamics (eg Castellan).

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX - advocate of better living through chemistry


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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:32:26 CST
From: "Steve Potter" <potter_s_l at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mailorder Homebrew Store Survey

Hello collective,

I propose that we conduct an e-mail survey the 
collective's experience with particular mail order
homebrew supply stores.

Lets rate them 1 to 10 with 1 being low on:
A.  Price
B.  Selection
C.  Service
D.  Knowledgeable employees

In addition, if the store is especially good in
an area, mention that.

Send your surveys to: first_draft at altavista.net 

I will tally the responses I get and post a summary here 
and also put it on my homebrew club's web site at:
www.hbd.org/1stdraft 

Steve
Madison, Wisconsin


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:25:32 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: A pseudo widget question :-)

In HBD # 2945  "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com> wrote:

___________________________________________________________________________
<snip>

Has anyone used a nitrogen bottle and an airstone to put a 
nitrogen head on a glass of beer AFTER the beer has been 
poured?  

Seems like the effect would be widget-like.  Drop the 
airstone in the glass of beer,  turn on the nitrogen,  let the 
creamy head rise...

<snip>
If this would work it seems like it would offer a lot of
flexibility.  Why wouldn't it work?
____________________________________________________________________________
____

I say, if it would work, then why not use air?  It is 78% nitrogen and I
assume you would drink it before oxidation would be a problem. 

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:21:48 -0500
From: "Brook Raymond" <brook at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: plastic and copper

It's been on my mind- brewing in HDPE plastic buckets?  I've seen the 
mashers but not heard of boiling in plastic til lately on in this group.
Sounds strange yet intriguing.  Would plastic outgassing affect the beer (or
the person)?   My bigger concern is using the immersion heater with this
setup.  Wouldn't a basic water heater element leach iron into the wort.
McMaster has copper sheathed ones, but they're $100.  Anyone have a source
of low cost copper sheathed immersion heaters?

Following the copper threads, I wonder if the Cu brewing tradition stems
from some antibacterial benefit.  I have no evidence, just a guess.  My
homemade Cu kettle is never scrubbed but always shines brighter just after a
brew.  This indicates to me that some etching has occurred.  I seriously
doubt it's harmful to me, but it probably keeps out some bateria.

Pressurized fermentation - I know yeast survive this if they were
depressurized slowly.  I've gone to 60 psi, then back to 0, and up again.
After the third time the yeast seemed more hesitant, but I think it was
because I expanded their bodies too fast.  I posted about attempting to
regulate beer from a keg for dispense without CO2.  Well, the problem I
found is that the extra volumes of gas must still get out.  So you get foam
even if you regulate it (just more slowly).  What's needed is a 2nd
container to hold the foam at final delivery pressure and wait for the foam
to settle.  As the 2nd container is tapped the cycle is continued, but the
volume of beer that settled out diminishes unless the excess gas is bled
off.  Perhaps you could install a float switch at the top of this vessel
(I'm thinking of a 1-2 liter soda bottle) in-line with a 5-10 psi check
valve.  When the liquid or foam reaches the top the bleeding would stop, but
it would also only bleed if the pressure was greater than the check valve.
Where can I get this float switch?  I know this becomes complicated and
bulky.

Brook
Roanoke, VA


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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:55:27 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oxidation at bottling

Fred Johnson writes doubting the importance of O2 inclusion during bottling.

Oxidation is a strange thing - it may have a sudden and obvious impact or
it's effects may develop slowly and subtly.

A few months ago I repeated the experiment in which bottles are filled to
various extents and the less filled bottles invariably reach higher
carbonation levels more quickly and overfilled bottles are invariable
undercarbonated.  I double flushed one set of samples with CO2 prior to
filling, and left another set with air in the headspace.  The difference in
carbonation levels between CO2 vs air in the headspace was negligible but
other differences were apparent.

The underfilled air-in-headspace beers had noticeably more yeast sediment
than their CO2 flushed equivalents, evident haze, and a bit more esters
(this was a marzen using WY2278). The yeast growth, haze and esters levels
can all be easily explained as a consequence of oxygen.  The biggest flavor
difference was that the nicely floral background hopping of tettnager and
hersbrucker was replaced in the air purged bottles by a less pleasant
bitterness.

Bottle conditioned beers are certainly much less susceptible to small
amounts of air than the filtered commercial beers, but air is still a
spoiler.  Bottle conditioning a couple bottles at 80% fill with air vs CO2
in the headspace should give you a pretty good idea of what you are up
against.

Steve




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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:20:06 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Large S.S. Italian Brewpots

Patrick Finerty (#2944-3) asks about large brewpots at B3.  Jay 
Spies (#2946-30) says that the rep at B3 tells him they are of 
Italian manufacture and have a spigot welded in.  A few years back I 
bought a several of the 100 litre (~26 gal) SS brewpots (also of italian 
manufacture) from Hoptech (Std. Discl.) for about $215 US.  At that 
time they were also selling 50 litre pots of similar design.  These 
came with a spigot which srewed into a 1/2" NPT female half coupling 
which is welded into the bottom of the kettle.  I have been very 
pleased with them.  I tossed the spigot on the brew kettles and replaced 
it with a drilled out 3/8" compression fitting.  A length of 3/8" tubing 
goes through the wall into a 3/8" compression "T" and then into a slotted 
manifold which runs around the perimeter of the bottom of the kettle. 
At the time when I was shopping around for these there were several 
sites on the web selling what appeared to be the same style of pots. 
I just took a quick peek at the Hotech site and they do still sell 
both sizes. The 50 litre is $160.  I hope this is useful.
							Regards
							Simon


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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 04:34:35 -0600
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: Lakeside property

Jeff Luck wrote:
>Take two paper cups, label one hot and another cold, 
>fill them with hot and cold tap water and stuff them in the 
>freezer.  Then check 'em every 15 minutes.  If that doesn't
>convince you, I have some lakeside property in southern
>Florida that you may be interested in... great prices....

Yeah, but watch out - I heard the lakes down there freeze faster than the
ones up north!

Couldn't resist ;-)

Tom in Rockford IL



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:27:28 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation

Peter J. Calinski is very concerned about O2 getting through his airlock ...

>Here is the mind game.  The air outside the fermenter is partially O2
[...]
>Therefore, the concentration of O2 in the wort in
>the fermenter will be the same as if the wort were open to the air.

I was concerned about this very issue back in Nov 1997 and found the
diffusivity constants and did the calculations - presented in HBD 2549 ...

S> How much air gets past an airlock ?
[gory calculation omitted - see the archives]
S> In other words, I estimate the oxygen that sneaks past an S-type bubbler
S> filled with water is equivalent to adding 1CC of air (not O2) every 3
S> months.  Thats less than the inclusion of a teaspoon of air per year!

>Where have I gone wrong?

Everything you wrote was fine except you didn't realize how very long it
would take for get an appreciable amount of oxygen to diffuse back through
your bubbler.  Neither did I till '97.

Steve



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:47:17 EST
From: DGofus at aol.com
Subject: No-sparge brewing (Bob Fesmire)

I have heard mention of no-sparge brewing. Could someone explain this to me?
My basic idea is that you mash with lots and lots of water, then drain into
brew kettle. Also, I have seen first wort hopping. Have many on this digest
used this? What are the benefits?

thanks in advance


Bob Fesmire
Madman Brewery
Pottstown, PA
Dgofus at aol.com


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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:00:48 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: Is the Schmidling mill as good as a 6 roller?

Hi folks,

Can someone here "in the know" please comment on the following?
It sounds to like "that's not a bug, it's a feature", but 
I don't really know anything about 6 roller mills.

thanks,
 -Alan

 One final point on adjustable mills is worth putting on the
 table.  It is frequently suggested that the one sided
 adjustability of the MM is a limitation when in fact, this
 is actually the key to the so called "text book crush".

 If you look at the oft published drawing of a six roller
 mill, you will note that the roller spacings are about
 .050", .030" and .012" from top to bottom.  It just so
 happens that, when an adjustable MM is set to near contact
 at the adjustable end, one gets those same numbers at the
 fixed end, center and adjustable end respectively.   The end
 rusult is that the random distrubution of grain across the
 length of the rollers provides about the same grist
 distribution as a six roll mill.
- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:28:45 -0800 (PST)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: Hop Devil Clone Recipe(s)

Several have asked about my attempts to clone the beer. Here's my last and
my next attempts:

Last:
Malts/Sugars:
  1.00	lb.	Belgian Biscuit          
  1.25	lb.	Cara-Pils Dextrine       
  1.00	lb.	Crystal  40L             
  6.50	lb.	Halcyon Pale Ale         
  1.50	lb.	Munich Light             
  0.50	lb.	Wheat                    

Hops:
21.00	g.	Centennial     	11.0%	60 min
14.00	g.	Centennial     	11.0%	30 min
42.00	g.	Cascade        	 7.0%	 1 min

Mash Temperature: 152F
Wyeast 1056
5.5 gal  at  1.052


Next:


Malts/Sugars:
  1.25	lb.	Cara-Pils Dextrine       
  1.00	lb.	Crystal  40L             
  3.00	lb.	Pale 2-Row               
  6.00	lb.	Vienna                   
  1.00	lb.	Wheat                    

Hops:
23.00	g.	Centennial     	11.0%	60 min
21.00	g.	Cascade        	 7.0%	30 min
42.00	g.	Cascade        	 7.0%	 1 min

Mash Temperature: 153F
Wyeast 1056  at  60-65F

And for those of you that are interested, please note my new email address
as I am now retired from Elk Grove School District.

cburns at jps.net



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:41:04 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: A tidbit from the Big Boys ...


Greetings,

I've been Emailing someone at one of the big breweries for the last couple
of 
weeks, arguing about beer styles.  As part of my argument I referred them to

the BJCP web site.  The person responded with :

  "Incidentally I asked executives of the Master Brewers 
  Association of the Americas and various brewmasters about 
  bjcp.  Either they hadn't heard of it or they laughed.  
  None recognize it."

Just thought I'd send it along FWIW. (Which may not be much)
I found it amusing more than anything ... (the whole exercise,
in fact)

cheers,
 -Alan  

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar Team		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:50:45 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re: Kegging


Philip asks about kegging :

> 1. What do you use to lubricate the o rings etc.. on the corny kegs?

I personally use just water and have never had a problem.  The
guy who brews at one of my favorite brewpubs swears by
vasoline.  He applies it quite liberally.  I have used it, but
I only just grease my finger and thumb and then just wet the
rings

> 3. Is there a source where new poppets (the things that the quick 
> disconnects connect to) can be had?  (One of the poppet valves on one of 
> my kegs is chipped). Are the poppet threads the same on all corny kegs?

There are several on the web.  Unfortunately I have the info at
home.  But I'm sure you'll get other responses.  If not, just
Email me at amckay at magma.ca

> 4. Has anyone designed a homemade jockey box that will handle the 
> cooling of beer fron two kegs at the same time? What size (dia. & 
> length) coil did you use?

Just use 2 coils.  I don't see where there is a problem here.
I tried 15' of 3/8", but that wasn't long enough to cool really
well.  I suppose it would be good for a british style ale, though.
I had to move to 25' to get the chilling I wanted.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar Team		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:44:39 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Beer bullets

>>>>
Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask.
<<<<

My wife likes the smell of brewing, she thinks it smells like bread being
baked.  That never occured to me, but I still let her think it smells like
bread if she dose'nt mind it.

Possibly what some people object to may be the smell of Propane gas.  Check
and make sure that is not what the offender is.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:43:57 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: maximum alcohol

Eric Dreher <ericd at reliantdata.com>

>I read somewhere that a fermented drink can only produce a maximum of
>13-15% alcohol  (without the futher distillation or such).  I don't know
>for fact that this is true, but thinking of the strongest beers in the
>world, they're around that level.  But I'm wondering why this could be
>true.  I'm sure there is a good reason, anybody know?  A friend said
>something about a port yeast being able to survive in 20% alcohol

Your 13-15% limit is probably a little low, but right under most
circumstances.  Wines can regularly reach this level (provided the juice
had enough sugar).  Twenty-five years ago I had a white wine (very ripe
Aurora [Seibel 5279] grapes) that started at 28 deg. Brix and fermented out
completely dry (per Clinit*st) using some dry yeast of .  I think that
figures to nearly 17% alcohol!  (_American Wines and Wine-Making_, Wagner,
p.124)  I had hoped to stop the fermentation at 12% alcohol for an
auslese-style wine, but it wouldn't stop, even at refrigerator temps.  I
was amazed.  It was a very out of balance wine.  I didn't know about
sorbate then, which would have stopped it.

Port is made from partially fermented grape juice to which is added brandy
to raise the alcohol to ~20% and arrest further fermentation, thereby
leaving a good bit of residual sugar.  The yeast never gets a chance to
ferment at very high levels.

As you surmised, yeast simply poops out beyond a certain level of alcohol.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:00:08 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Still on bleach acidification

>From John Wilkerson:
> HOCL being easily degraded by organic material is mentioned as if that
is a
> problem but then #2 goes on to say that there won't be any left for
replenishment if all
> is converted at the beginning of the process.  This implies that HOCL
is desireable.
> What if there is no more replenished if there is a larger amount to
start with?  Isn't
> degrading organic material what it is supposed to be doing in the
first place?

Just to explain my reasoning-- HOCl is indeed desireable and I don't
argue that, but
maybe I should have been a bit more clear when I said that we don't want
almost all
of the -OCl converted over to HOCl (as would happen at lower pH's).

Although the mechanism of HOCl as a biocide is not really well
understood, it is
clear that a few molecules do the work on one biological cell.  Think of
a huge
battleship being disabled by a few mines.  If you put all of the mines
in one place,
you blast the living daylights out of the battleship, but now there are
no more
mines and the rest of the armada cruises through.

A slower release gives the HOCl more of a search and destroy in waves--
cells are
deactivated, then more HOCl is generated and more cells are
deactivated.  The
mechanism of the biocidal activity is more complicated that simply
coming into
contact with organic material and both the HOCl and the organic molecule
end their
existence in their current form (kind of like some battleship wreckage
exploding a
mine-- it does no good, but there's a big bang).

> As to #3, shortening the time of disinfection would seem to me to be a
plus.
> Wasn't that one of the objects of acidifying in the first place? As I
said, I
> don't question the chemistry as I am certainly unqualified to do that
but I wonder
> about the other points.  What am I missing?

Time is relative.  At 120F, 50 ppm chlorine will give you a 99.9% kill
in 15-20
seconds.  At 60F it's more like a minute (QDA-- don't have a reference
book handy, but I have been working with this stuff for the past 10
years).  If you acidify your bleach the times don't change that much,
because you're still waiting for contact to occur between
the organisms and and the chlorine-- the biggest limiting factor is the
random
motion of both through the water as they must meet before anything gets
killed.  If
you have twice as much HOCl in the water, the meeting will occur more
quickly, but
you're only saving around 15 seconds at room temp.  (Incidentally, you
get a faster kill at
higher temps because the Brownian motion, or random travelling, is
happening much
faster; temperature is really only a measurement of how quickly
particles are moving
within a medium.)

Hope this helps,

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:03:26 -0500 
From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
Subject: 4th Annual South Shore Brewoff

As minister of Propaganda, it is my pleasure to announce:
The Fourth Annual South Shore Brewoff Homebrew Competition.
To get entry forms or more information contact 
Glenn Markel at GRMARKEL at AOL.com <mailto:GRMARKEL at AOL.com>
<mailto:GRMARKEL at AOL.com <mailto:GRMARKEL at AOL.com> > .
To get information about judging or stewarding, contact Stephen Rose at
508-821-4152. 
Only pre-registered judges will be admitted.
This year's competition will again be at Chardonnay's restaurant, 
Cranston, RI on March 13th. Our past experience is that we have a well
organized, 
well judged event in a comfortable setting. 

This BJCP authorized event will again be dedicated to providing objective, 
high quality feedback to home brewers. The level of judging has in past
years 
been very senior. The food served to the brewoff workers has been
exceptional. 
Drop-off points include most Boston and Rhode Island home brew supply shops.

Entries are due March 6th, 1999. 

South Shore Brew Club - In search of the perfect 
				Cheers,
				Randy
				Rreed at foxboro.com <mailto:Rreed at foxboro.com>



http://members.aol.com/brewclub <http://members.aol.com/brewclub> 



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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:10:34 -0500
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: HLT size

I have nearly completed my 10 gallon brewery, the final piece I need is a
HLT, I have a used resturaunt supply house where I can get any size kettle.
With an 11 gallon mash/lauter tun and a 60qt (15 gal) boil kettle. Will a 10
gallon HLT be sufficient or should I go for the 15gal?
***************************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs                 E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.             Voice: (612) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204              FAX: (612) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                        *
*                http://www.quannon.com/                      *
***************************************************************



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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:31:51 -0800
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: AFCHC


Johnathan Nail asks:


>From: Jonathan Nail <jnail at boom.dvdexpress.com>
>Subject: AFCHC

>Anyone know when the next America's Finest City Homebrew Competition is to
>happen in San Diego? I thought it was in Fe"brew"ary, but I haven't seen
>or heard anything regarding the competition. Thanks!

>**Jonathan**


Hi Johnathan,
The Judging will be held on March 6th 1999. Entries are due from 2/15 to
2/26. Check out the web page at www.softbrew.con/afchbc/
How's it going in L.A.? The QC store isn't the same without ya.

Mark Alfaro



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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:42:07
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: N2 and bubbles...

(Hi Dave)

Just read Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>'s post to the HBD
responding to my question....about the feasibility of making a
Guinness-like head by using an airstone blowing nitrogen in a glass of beer.

I was going to ask a follow-up question directly to Dave, but as I was
typing it occured to me that others might be interested in what makes a
bubble a bubble.

Please understand that I don't really know anything about bubbles :-) just
have impressions and have no reservations about showing my ignorance by
asking!

In my mind I see a bubble as spherical liquid surface containing gas that
may pass through through the bubble's surface at some rate. One gas may
cause the bubble to shrink or break faster than another, for whatever
reason. Shrinking or breaking may be the reason foam dissappears, I don't
really know. 

Anyway, somewhere I got the idea that a bubble with nigrogen as the gas
inside would last longer than a bubble with CO2 or air inside. At least on
average. Is this true?

I did not know that the widget contained both beer and high pressure N2. In
my mind it was just filled with high pressure N2. Is the foam that
develops, when the widget is activated,  simply bubbles filled with co2
driven out of the beer in the can, by the shear forces resulting from the
rapid forcing of beer, within the widget, out as a high velocity stream?  I
know the widget-induced foam is quite different from the foam that comes
out of a non-widget can. What is the quality that makes this foam
different? I had attributed it to being bubbles filled with nigrogen...goes
to show what I know!

If an airstone were used in a glass, would the bubbles formed be filled
with n2? Seems like they should be. It was not clear to me from Dave's post
how a n2-filled bubble would compare to a co2-filled bubble. If we had a
glass of n2-bubble foam beside a glass of co2-bubble foam, which would last
longer? I would have guessed the n2-bubble foam would be more stable, but
only from impressions gained reading the HBD over the last years. I have no
experience with n2 at all.

I guess the real question my mind is driving at is: Could a head built by
an airstone bubbling n2 through beer end up being superior to the one
provided by a Guinness tap? Could it be equal? Would it be inferior? Would
it even develop?

AT this point I don't know the theory, and the only way for me to get the
answer is to put out $50 or so for a n2 cylinder, which I would rather
avoid at this point if theory says I should wait for nitrogenated beer
until I get the proper tap as well.

Bill


 



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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:40 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis

     Hi all,
     
     Several people are questioning the importance of aeration of the 
     finished beer, especially for bottle conditioned product.  They reason 
     that the yeast will consume the oxygen and therefore protect the beer. 
      (One person stated that they were reluctant to question me; please 
     don't be like that!  I am far from infallible and like being 
     questioned.  It forces me to look up stuff to support my statements, 
     thus helping to solidify my knowledge.)
     
     Yeast as antioxidants:  as anybody who has been reading this digest 
     for a while knows, yeast do not respire in wort.  Search the archives 
     for more info about this.  Yeast do consume oxygen to synthesize 
     sterols, though, so why won't they be great antioxidants?
     
     Yeast will take up some oxygen at bottling time, but not all of it. 
     Reasons for this could be that the pressure in the bottle slows the 
     yeast down.  Pressure is a well-known inhibitor of yeast growth, so 
     some O2 will remain.  Louis Bonham tested some bottle conditioned beer 
     that I sent him a while back for both CO2 content and headspace air.  
     Unfortunately, I can't find the data!  Perhaps Louis can find a moment 
     to jump in?  Maybe George Fix has some data about O2 levels in
     bottle conditioned beer?  I seem to recall reading somewhere that the 
     yeast only consume about 30% of the headspace O2, but don't remember 
     where I read this.  That's useful, huh?
     
     The oxidation of the finished beer can happen quickly if the beer is 
     relatively warm.  Cold beer will not oxidize as quickly, but it will 
     allow O2 to dissolve in it more readily, and the yeast will not be as 
     active.  Either situation seems grim.
     
     After all this, *you must remember what I said in my last post* (Alan 
     M. seems to have missed this point, accusing me of blindly applying 
     mega-brewer procedures to my homebrewing):  if you store your homebrew 
     cold and drink it within a month or two, it is likely to be fine (if 
     you are not going out of your way to aerate the beer).  George Fix's 
     data (from Brewing Techniques 6.6) demonstrates that beer with 2.0 mL 
     of headspace air will not start to noticeably stale until it is 70 
     (seventy) days old, if stored at 43F (6C).  On the other hand, if you 
     store it at 86F (30C) it will be rotten in 5 (five) days.  Quite a 
     difference!
     
     That is why commercial brewers are so concerned with cold-side 
     aeration.  They have little control over what is happening to their 
     beer once it hits the road.  Even beer with only 0.5 mL of headspace 
     air will taste stale in as little as 60 days if stored at 30C.  
     Lighter beers tend to show off these flavors more prominently
     than fuller beers.
     
     60 days really isn't too long for your average craft beer or import.  
     The high prices and (sometimes) long ocean voyages mean that the beer 
     may be far from young when it finds itself in your glass.   Many small 
     breweries in both the US and other countries have less than ideal 
     bottling lines, and therefore have the potential for more O2 pickup 
     than beer bottled at a well financed establishment.
     
     As far as oxygen being desirable at bottling time to help the yeast 
     grow and ferment the primings:  I strongly disagree!  You don't want 
     yeast growth at that late stage in the brewing process.  You want a 
     population of healthy, happy yeast that are able to quickly ferment 
     the primings before the pressure knocks them out.  This is best 
     achieved by adding a fresh dose of yeast at bottling time.
     
     In summary, if you find that your beer is losing its malt character or 
     picking up oxidative off-flavors (metal, sherry, etc.), perhaps you 
     should be a little more careful about O2 pickup in your brewery.  If 
     you find that your beer holds up fine in the time that it
     takes you to consume it, then there is probably no need to get 
     paranoid about oxygen.
     
     I encourage all of those interested in beer oxidation to read the 
     aforementioned Fix article and Scott Bickham's Focus on Flavor article 
     (I think it is also in BT 6.6).
     -------------------------------------------------------
     A quick note about yeast autolysis:  somebody a few issues back 
     (sorry, I can't remember the name of the poster) said that yeast 
     autolysis is not much of a threat to homebrew, even if it is kept in 
     the primary for a few weeks while you wait for a slow fermentation to 
     finish.
     
     This is far from the truth.  I have ruined more than enough batches by 
     keeping them in the primary for 2-3 weeks (even if there was residual 
     sugar to ferment).  Certain yeast strains are more prone to autolysis 
     than others, but very few ale yeasts do well after 3 weeks in the 
     primary.  Lager yeasts can be a bit more forgiving, at least in part 
     because of the cool temperature the beer ferments at.
     
     Yeast autolysis is recognized by a meaty, yeasty, rubbery, 
     aroma/flavor.  In my experience, few judges actually recognize this 
     flaw for what it is, often saying that the beer seems infected (I have
     entered autolyzed beer in several competitions just for kicks).  Even 
     though they often cannot identify the source of the off character, one 
     thing is agreed upon:  it is not pleasant!
     
     Even if your fermentation is sluggish and there is residual sugar, the 
     yeast that flocced early and are buried at the bottom of the fermenter 
     aren't seeing it.  They are dying.  You don't want them in your beer.  
     Simply shaking the carboy does not "deflocc" all the yeast.  Try
     this at home:  shake the carboy and take a look at it in 5 minutes.  A 
     lot of yeast will have settled quite quickly.  It is not actively 
     fermenting.
     
     If your fermentation is slow or stuck, it is better to rack the 
     semi-fermented beer out of the primary and add a dose of fresh yeast 
     to get things going again then to simply leave it on the spent primary 
     yeast.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:19:23 -0700
From: Beth Fuchs <bfuchs at chtm.chtm.unm.edu>
Subject: Beer Wives

In HBD 2945, Scott asks:
>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
>from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask. 
>
>C'ya!
>
> -Scott "Always brew in Plaid" Abene
>

Well, I'm a brewing wife.  My husband doesn't like beer and never has,
although he does say that the best beer he's ever tasted has been beer that
I've made.  I have tons of support from him ("Honey, I can't get the lid
off my plastic fermenter, could you do it?").  In the short time I've been
brewing, he's only complained about it once, and that was because the stove
was full of brewing stuff and he didn't have a place to fix his dinner.  He
doesn't even mind when I have some of my brewing buddies over to the house
to watch football or hockey and drink beer.

Beth



Disorganization is merely the sign of a very healthy individual
trying to do more in a shorter period of time than those lazy, obsessively
tidy types who can think of nothing better to do than straighten objects in
drawers and stuff like that which only feeds on their own egos and makes
them think they're better than those of us who are truly gifted.


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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:35:18 -0500 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Homebrew Article


Fellow brewers,

I was interviewed by a newspaper reporter (Becky Billingsley) last summer
for an article that ran in the Myrtle Beach (SC) Sun Times.  It was about
home brewing, and I was the "expert" she quoted on home brewing and judging.
I actually judged some beers brewed by other people in her article.  She
recorded my comments and "scores".  It ended up being a half-decent article
and features yours truly fairly prominently.  The reason I bring this up now
is that she notified me that it was picked up by the national AP wire this
week.  I'd be curious knowing where else it gets published.  If any of you
happen to see it in your local papers, I'd appreciate a brief note.

TIA,
Scott Bridges
ScottBridges at sc.slr.com
Brewing in Columbia, SC





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---