---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Hot and Cold freezing, nitrogen (Dave Burley)
  Bock again, copper not soluble in acid (Dave Burley)
  Kegging (William Frazier)
  Re: Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis (Scott Murman)
  Brew(ing) loving wife ("Kevin Imel")
  First Lager; Beer bullets ("Steve")
  homebrew cooking - beer stock (Scott Murman)
  Momilies and ice cubes (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer faucets ("Richard Hooper")
  re: Kegging ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Torrified Wheat (JYANDERS)
  Aluminum Soldering/Brazing (Bill Graham)
  Report on Ballantine IPA clone (Jeff Renner)
  Autolysis ("Stephen Alexander")
  using gelatin while dry hopping (Adam Holmes)
  Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer. (Rod Prather)
  Re: Maximum Alcohol ("Tim Green")
  Sake brewery one day brewing job experience (Mutsuo Hoshido)
  odor in beer? (Marc Hering)
  Scrapyard Jewels (Kirk Ramsay)
  Yeast Development ("Bridges, Scott")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:01:08 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hot and Cold freezing, nitrogen

Brewsters:

Growing up in an old house without insulated pipes I found out
where the momily "hot water freezes faster than cold" came from.
It was always our hot water pipes which froze first, since we didn't
use the hot water line as much as we did the cold water line.

There is no good experiment which will demonstrate that
hot water feezes faster than cold, since the hot water must pass
thorugh the orignal temperature of the cold water. The cold
water will already be below that by that time and will always
freeze first.
- ---------------------------
NItrogen in the gas bubble is what causes Guiness to have
a long lasting head.  Nitrogen is not very soluble in beer
( about 1/10 as much as CO2 if memory serves)  What
causes a head to fall is the diffusion of the CO2 through
the bubble wall, since it is soluble in the beer.  When a
Guiness head is formed, it is the CO2 which forms the foam first
and then the mechanical action of the sparkler replaces
some of the CO2 with nitrogen, which being less soluble
does not diffuse out so fast. The head thus lasts longer if
all the other things in the beer foam wall ( like proteins and
hop/protein complexes)  prevent the draining of the wall
and weakening it so it bursts.
- ---------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:02:17 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Bock again, copper not soluble in acid

Brewsters:

After a long time, I finally got back on line, even though my computer
worked fine shortly after I put in a new HD, I couldn't get online until
recently.  Finally got it fixed by running Scandisk for the third time,
no report, no nothing, but it works. Don't ask me.

Lots of wasted weeks of days and nights.   Sorry I haven't been
able to respond to your e-mails until now.

Ryan McCammon worries about copper metal dissolving in his beer.

Won't happen!
 .
Copper metal ( being below hydrogen in the electrochemical series)
is not soluble in common, non-oxidising ( hydrochloric, sulfuric, e.g.)
acids, and certainly not in weak acids like lactic, acetic and the like.
 What is soluble in these acids is copper oxide, which results from
the oxidation of copper. Wet copper in contact with air produces this.
That ugly brown coating  on copper is oxide of copper of various
stoichiometries.  If you want to make sure you don't get copper in
your beer, first wash any copper part that will contact your wort or
 beer in a dilute solution of an acid like acetic acid ( white vinegar),
rinse and then immediately immerse the copper part in the solution
to prevent air contact.

This explains why "coppers" could be used in Britain to boil the wort
without dissolving, as long as they were kept clean and full.  Copper
was malleable, so could be formed into a kettle and it was an excellent
conductor of heat and most importantly copper is not reactive with the
wort ( compared to iron which is above hydrogen in the EC Series,
for example).
 

Another thing that they had going for them was the low surface area to
volume ratio in the huge kettles which would produce a low copper
concentration even if some oxide coating was on the walls.

Interestingly, copper bowls are used to make nice stiff egg whites
because the miniscule amount of copper atoms ( from the dissolved
copper oxide) react with the albumin to crosslink protein chains and
make a stiffer foam.  Doesn't take much and it also doesn't work with
a new, clean copper bowl.

Lead is also below hydrogen in the EC series and is not soluble in
acids(it was used to line sulfuric acid reactors!) , but the oxides are
likewise soluble in acids and lead acetate was used as a wine
sweetener in Roman times, since they did not understand the
damage to their CNS, consuming such heavy metal salts would have.

It is right to avoid metals in your beer, but don't be too anal about it,

just understand that a quick acid wash with copper will reduce the
amount of copper salts in the beer to near zero.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ
Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:23:28 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Kegging

I need some advice from long time keggers...I've been brewing about ten
years, at least half that time all-grain.  I always bottle my beer.  I
brew all kinds of beer and the problem discussed below pertains mostly to
non dry-hopped, light colored beers.

With the rare exception, there always is some off-flavor, usually small and
only noticed by me. By this I mean the beer tastes a little different, after
it is conditioned, than what I remember before adding priming sugar and filling.
(Note:  I use a bottling bucket.  I pump the finished beer into the bucket
using a peristaltic pump (ie. no air touches the beer as it is pumped from
the carboy to the bucket).  I overlay the beer and priming sugar solution
with CO2 (I use enough CO2 so that a lit match will stop burning when
lowered into the bucket).  I fill by gravity and fill the headspace with CO2
prior to capping.  Bottles are scrupulously clean and sanitized before
filling --- In my previous life I was a pharmaceutical scientist and
understand microbial contamination).

Recently I purchased a keg (already had the CO2 set-up for my wine hobby) and 
made a batch of the Zymurgy SNPA Clone.  Bottled about half and kegged the rest.

The next day I sampled the beer from the keg.  By far one of the best beers
I've ever brewed.  I did add 1/2 lb flaked barley in place of 1/2 lb pale
malt and the head was as creamy as Guinness drawn in Athlone, Ireland.  My
son said he would be moving back home if this beer was going to be on tap.

In about two weeks I sampled the bottled version.  That old off-flavor was
there.  I could perceive it even though the beer was dry-hopped.  Something
happens in my bottling process and I take pains to keep O2 away from the beer.

I purchased several more kegs and intend to get away from bottling.  My
questions are as follows;

 -I read where some use the keg for secondary fermentation.  Does any
subsequent settled yeast plug up the works or is it better to conduct
secondary fermentation in a fresh carboy?

 -If using a keg for secondary fermentation, how do you dry-hop without
having the hops plug up the works?

 -How do most keggers clean and sanitize the kegs?

 -How long will beer keep that nice fresh taste in a keg?

Any other tips will be appreciated.  TIA.

	Bill Frazier
	Johnson County, Kansas



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Oxygenation of finished beer / yeast autolysis

George De Piro wrote:
>
>      A quick note about yeast autolysis:  somebody a few issues back 
>      (sorry, I can't remember the name of the poster) said that yeast 
>      autolysis is not much of a threat to homebrew, even if it is kept in 
>      the primary for a few weeks while you wait for a slow fermentation to 
>      finish.
>      
>      This is far from the truth. 

It was I who made the statement, and you're missing the context, or I
didn't make it clear.  The original poster was considering racking a
barleywine after 1 week in the primary because they'd read somewhere
that 1 week was when beer should be racked, all all of their normal
gravity ales were done by this point.  I simply commented that if
it's still fermenting, then leave it alone.  Especially for very
strong beers.  I feel many brewers rack their big beers too early,
leading to a higher finishing gravity.

As to your main point; problems may develop from leaving the beer in
the primary for extended periods, but then again, they may not
<shrug>.  There are too many variables involved to develop hard-n-fast
rules.  Personally, I always rack to a 2nd'ary eventually, but let
experience be my guide, not dogma.

 -SM-



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:57:51 -0800
From: "Kevin Imel" <kimel at moscow.com>
Subject: Brew(ing) loving wife

As a long time (6 years) reader and infrequent poster, I thought I 
would relate the story of how I discovered that my bride to-be was 
going to put up with my brewing hobby.

We both worked in the same dept on campus (she as a secretary 
and I as a research tech) and were somewhat aquainted but 
nothing seemed to be taking off until I put a note on the bulletin 
board asking for empty, non-twist-off brown beer bottles (I still 
bottled in those days but she bought me a kegging setup for my 
birthday a few years back).  She promptly brought me two cases of 
de-labeled, cleaned brown bottles.  To repay the favor I dropped off 
a six-pack of assorted ales and a bottle of mead.  She thought I 
was flirting and next thing I knew I was invited to dinner at her 
house.

Three months later I moved in (leaving my source of pure spring 
water behind too!) and the rest, as they say, is history.  It took me 
a few batches to get the knack of treating the city water but it has 
been worth it.

She loves the smells of brewing and helps with all aspects, even 
the clean-up.  She especially likes to help with the meads.

The other day she observed that 2 of my 4 kegs were empty and 
the 3rd was getting "light" and informed me it was time to brew.  
So, tomorrow (sunday) we will brew up her favorite, a brown ale.

Also, we are getting ready to build a new house and she insists 
that there will be a dedicated brewing room in the basement; not to 
get the mess out of the kitchen but so I can get my 3-tier RIMS 
going!  YIPPEEE!!!!

Speaking of dedicated brewing rooms...anyone done this recently 
and have any lessons they want to share other than piping in the 
natural gas, LOTS of ventillation, CO monitors, etc?

Cheers, and thanks for so many years of great learning about 
brewing!

Kevin
___________________________________
Kevin Imel 
KF7CN - DN16lv
Palouse Washington USA

"The Only Way To Truely Fail Is To Fail To Try!"


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:13:43 -0500
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: First Lager; Beer bullets

Greetings, All!

Two weeks ago I brewed my first lager, a 1.080 Doppelbock. Not only
that, but it was also my first decoction mash (single). What an
experience!! Here's the recipe.

Target OG 1.079 (using 80% efficiency); Calculated IBU 26; SRM 26.

8.5 gallon batch

11 lbs  light munich malt
11 lbs  dark german munich malt
1 lb      dwc caramunich
1/2 lb   biscuit malt
2 oz     chocolate malt

1.5 oz norther brewer, 6.9 aa, 60 min
1.25 oz hersbrucker, 4.5 aa, knockout
Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils

Mashed 35 minutes at 133F; pulled thickest 2.5 gal of mash  at 20 min,
heat to boil (5 min), boiled 10 min, added back to main mash at the 35
minute mark. Hit 154F. Conversion took 2 more hours (??? - low enzyme
content of munich??). Then I began the vorlauf & sparge process -
extremely slow runoff. It took almost 3 hours to sparge a 9 gallon
batch, but it went OK from then on, so maybe someday I'll try it
again. Actual OG is 1.080

I pitched a 3 step starter, going from smack pack to 1/2 gallon and
decanting the spent wort after the second step. It's been in the
primary at 50F for 13 days now, and I'm still getting a bubble out of
the airlock every 10 seconds, and there is still about 1/2 inch of
krausen on the top. The specific gravity is 1.040.  I had expected to
be able to do the diacetyl rest and rack to secondary for lagering by
now, but I'm not sure if it is ready. Should I try to rouse the yeast?
Should I make another starter and pitch it? Or is everything normal
and lager yeast normally takes this long to work. Can anyone enlighten
me on this?




Scott Abene wrote :
>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting
>positive responses from their spouses. I wonder sometimes,
>so I just have to ask.

Scott, you're not alone with your spouse and her opinion of brewing.
My soulmate of 23 years likes most of my brews, and I do brew a few
especially for her taste (yes, one is a raspberry wheat, but also
amber maple ale, nut brown ale, and english pale ale). In fact, she's
the one who got me started by buying a basic equipment kit and
ingredients for my birthday 4 years ago. She's also taken the
opportunity to give me many of my brewing gadgets as gifts over the
years (PhilMill, KingKooker, glassware, etc). I traded the last 3
months of 98 without brewing (so I could catch up on my other projects
around the house) for brewing as often as I want for the first 3
months of 99. Tomorrow (Sunday) I'm brewing my 5th and 6th batches of
99, and should have well over 100 gallons brewed by the end of March.
Although she's not into Porters, Stouts, Strong Scotch ales, or
doppelbocks, she loves my barleywines, tripels, and most others, and
complains when she doesn't have enough variety to choose from (God
bless her). Still, she doesn't care much for the aromas during the
brewing process, and doesn't want to get involved in the process, so I
manage the the brewery (oops, I mean the  garage) on my own.

Hoppy Brewing !!

Steve Jones, brewing  Kilgore Trout Stout & J Duck's IPA in Johnson
City, TN

http://home.att.net/~stjones1










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Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:21:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: homebrew cooking - beer stock


I'm a big believer in pitching adequate yeast, and I practice what I
preach.  I use a 1-2 gallon starter batch for a 5 gal. brew.  Usually
this is simply made from LME with some hops, so it's not the tastiest
drink.  I hate throwing anything down the drain, so these starter
batches make up the bulk of my "cooking beer".  Even so, I'm usually
faced with a gallon of beer that I don't have the motivation or time
to bottle.  What I've been looking for is a means to use large volumes
of homebrew.  Soups are an obvious choice, but few soups taste very
good when made with 50-100% beer.  What I've been experimenting with
lately is making stocks from beer.  Stocks are made from scraps, and
form the backbone of most soups, gravies, sauces, etc.


1 chicken carcass, or ham bones, or <fill in the blank> - I freeze
this until I'm ready.  I chop up the chicken to allow access to the
bone marrow.  It's possible to use about any scrap, but I'd stay away
from fatty meats like bear.  It's also possible to make a vegan stock
without any meat.

1 gal. homebrew - any flavor or variety
chopped onion, celery, carrot, etc.
bay leaf
whole peppercorns

Notice that salt is missing.  You don't want to spice this strongly,
or whatever you eventually make from the stock could be overwhelmed.
The idea is just to extract the flavors from the ingredients via slow
cooking.  Using beer in this manner is somewhat counterproductive, as
it will contribute a strong flavor, but omitting the beer would be
even more counterproductive to the whole experiment;)

Place all ingredients in (you guessed it) a stock pot, and cook
uncovered over a very low heat for about 8 - 12 hours.  I do mine on
the weekend, just in case something goes wrong so I can be around.  It
usually reduces from 1 gal. to about 1 qt.  If you simmer it covered,
obviously, you'll get far less reduction, and also a different flavor.
Store the stock in 1 qt. canning jars in the fridge.  It will develop
a layer of fat on the surface when chilled.  Normally stocks should be
used within 1 week, but since we're using beer instead of water, that
could probably be extended.

My efforts have developed into a strong tasting, complex stock.  There
are all manner of recipes you could try it in at this point.  I've
tried it in soups, to no great success, but have made a couple of very
good sauces and gravies.  Try starting with a basic brown sauce, and
experiment from there. 


 -SM-





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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:16:06 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Momilies and ice cubes

Seems like my definition of a "Momily" went over some heads.

Momilies aint necessarily incorrect.  The point is Mom said it and
it must be right untill we get smart enough prove her wrong.  If she
was right, it's still a Momily.

I simply pointed to the ice cube momily as my favorite example.  I
passed no judgement on it.  I have always however, presumed that it
was absurd but did not suggest that in my posting.  The interesting
comments that followed seem to have validated my intuition.  Never
thought about the evaporation but it must be trivial compared to
the BTU's that have to be pulled out of the water to get it to
freeze.  

Near boiling water, clearly is a red herring.  Mom had no such thing
in mind and it would be a bit nutty to heat up water to make ice
cubes "faster".  The time and energy to bring it to a boil make the
whole idea an exercize in proving a point for the sake of proving it.

js


- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:29:33 +0200
From: "Richard Hooper" <richard at dundee.lia.net>
Subject: Beer faucets

On 25th January, Jay Spies posted:

"Contemplating the impending purchase of a chest freezer and the attendant
tap hardware, I remember stumbling across a faucet head assembly in
William's Brewing (no affiliation . . .) called a "creamer faucet" that has
an extra position on the handle that basically "whips" ambient room air into
the faucet, thus theoretically giving the beer going into the glass that
creamy Guinness-like head.  I think it was "pull forward to dispense, push
back to stop, push back real far to 'cream'" (insert bad imagery here)."

If this has already been replied to, I apologise - I am a little late in
reading
HBDs lately.

Here in South Africa, these type of faucets appear to be the industry norm.
They are probably imported from Europe.  My taps were bought from an
agent for Micromatic products.  I have also seen them advertised in a
brochure from Braukunst, tel. 1 800-972-BRAU as a pilsner dispenser
or some-such.

They work very well, and allow one to put a head on a completely
uncarbonated
beer.  Head retention, of course, depends on your beer composition.
They also have a very handy little lever on the side of the tap which allows
you to regulate beer flow, from a full stream down to a trickle.  This is
very
useful when you have an over-carbonated beer.

Hope this helps.

Richard Hooper
Dundee
South Africa



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Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:35:00
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Kegging

Philip asks about kegging :

> 1. What do you use to lubricate the o rings etc.. on the corny kegs?

Keg Lube from Williams Brewing (800-759-6025).  It's a very tacky silicone
lube that works great.  Item # D52, $3.90 for 1 oz. That's close to a
life-time supply since a only a barest trace of the stuff on keg o-rings
does the trick.  Doesn't affect heading on the brew as one might expect.
Don't use vasiline- per a posting by our illustrous janitor Pat awhile
back, the stuff will eat the o-rings.

> 3. Is there a source where new poppets (the things that the quick 
> disconnects connect to) can be had?  (One of the poppet valves on one of 
> my kegs is chipped). Are the poppet threads the same on all corny kegs?

Same place but they're too expensive for my tastes- $10.90 each for
Cornelius  ball locks.  At that price, one's better off scavenging them
from used kegs.   BTW, you want "disconnect fittings", "poppets" are the
small spring loaded valve affairs that fit inside the disconnect fittings.
The fittings are not all the same- the Williams catalog lists 3 different
ball and 2 pin lock types.  

For Cornelius kegs w/o disconnect fittings, use them as fermenters.  To
attach blowoff tubes and such: Use a 3/8" NPT female threaded copper or SS
fitting- a 3/8 NPT female x 1/2" tubing works well.  It's not a air-tight
fit, but, with a gasket from 1/16" red rubber gasketing between the bottom
of the fitting and the keg, it's tight enough.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
web site:      http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/  



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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:29:26 EST
From: JYANDERS at aol.com
Subject: Torrified Wheat

Can anyone out there tell me what the ideal extraction rate is for torrified
wheat?

 TIA,
 JMA
 


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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:22:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Graham <weg at micro-net.net>
Subject: Aluminum Soldering/Brazing

Greetings O Masters of Fabrication:

        I made a boo-boo on my nice aluminum mash tun, drilling a hole
about 1/2" from where I should have drilled it. Woops. Then I drilled a
hole in the correct place, leaving a "figure -8" looking hole. I would
like to patch this so it looks like a "figure-0" hole.
        I envision cutting out the proper size piece from some aluminum
stock and soldering (brazing?) it into the hole.

        My questions are, O Patient Ones:

        What kind of solder (I imagine some silver solder)?
        What kind of flux?                                               
        Will a propane torch work, or will I need one of them thar MAPP
gas ones?
        Where can I purchase the solder and flux (if non-standard)? A web
site would be wonderful here.

        Or - is there another answer to my solution (preparing
myself for sarcasm, cynicism, and outright insults here).

Thank You, O Wise and Wonderful Ones.

Bill - soon to lose LOTS of beer bullets unless he can fix his mashtun

"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali



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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:01:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Report on Ballantine IPA clone

Brewers

Larry O'mahoney <LLOM at chevron.com> has reported to HBD on his attempt to
clone Ballantine IPA (see archives).  He solicited input on recipe
development, which I contributed, on reproducing this legendary American
beer.  He sent me a 22 oz. bomber, which I've just tasted.  It is terrific!
I hope this will help encourage other brewers to try this.  Here is my note
to him:

Larry

I've just opened and tasted your clone attempt of Ballentine's IPA along
with a two year old bottle of the commercial version (B).  Here are
informal observations  (L) = Yours, (B) = commercial:

Appearance:
L - Pale gold, about like commercial lagers, good head formation and retention.
B - Full/dark copper, perhaps some color from black malt plus dark caramel?
Good head and retention.

Nose:
L - Pungent aroma!  That elusive old fashioned sour "beery" aroma, DMS (not
at all like creamed corn, though) and/or Cluster?, hops, big nose but not
like typical commercial or micro or import IPA or other ales, very
distinctive and old fashioned - Cluster and something else resinous - white
American grapes like Niagara - prob. this from yeast.  Very authentic to
memory.  Lots goping on here.
B - Old, sweet caramel nose predominates (old?), light hops aroma.  Very
much less distinctive.

Palate
L - Med. body, mod. sweetness (corn?), mod. bitterness, alcohol, but mostly
that pungent complex Cluster hop flavor and maybe DMS.  Very distinctive.
Don't give this to anyone who doesn't like Cluster!
B - Fuller body, caramel, sweeter, softer, not bad but fairly simple.  A
very subtle touch of dark (black?) malt.

Finish
L - Aromas and flavors linger with a lingering, clinging harsh bitterness -
too much sulfate?
B - Finish follows palate, clean lingering sweetness balanced with clean,
modest bitterness.

Overall impressions:
L - Big, complex, pungent, flavorful beer marred only by harshness in
finish.  Misses probable historic target of old Ballantine's probably by
color and perhaps caramel maltiness present in today's Ballantine's, but
probably authentic to some kinds of old American strong/stock ales.  I
wouldn't change a thing except to reduce the gypsum and perhaps add just a
bit of black malt - not enough to taste, though (!), and maybe up the
caramel malt.  But I like the cleanness of the low caramel.  A very fine
beer.
B - Surprisingly good for its age, but the real McCoy certainly aged.
Probably some of the caramel notes come from age but not unpleasantly
oxidized.  Not a bad ale and certainly retains a bit of the old
distinctiveness, but really only a shadow of its former self.

Congratulations on a terrific success!  I will post this to HBD.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:26:36 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Autolysis

 George De Piro writes about autolysis ...

>    A quick note about yeast autolysis:  somebody a few issues back
> [...] said that yeast autolysis is not much of a threat to homebrew, [...]

I think you are referring to my comments from mid-1998 (time flies).

>     This is far from the truth.  I have ruined more than enough batches by
>     keeping them in the primary for 2-3 weeks (even if there was residual
>     sugar to ferment).  Certain yeast strains are more prone to autolysis
>     than others, but very few ale yeasts do well after 3 weeks in the
>     primary.  Lager yeasts can be a bit more forgiving, at least in part
>     because of the cool temperature the beer ferments at.
>
>     Yeast autolysis is recognized by a meaty, yeasty, rubbery,
>     aroma/flavor.  In my experience, few judges actually recognize this
>     flaw for what it is [...] one thing is agreed upon:  it is not
pleasant!
[ advise on removing/repitching yeast to sluggish/stopped fermentors
followed]

Autolysis is the breakdown, from the inside out, of the dead yeast cells.
They 'spill their guts' when the normal protease enzymes used to constantly
recycle proteins in the live yeast cell eventually breach the walls of the
chamber in which they reside.

Consider the flavors George associates with autolysis:

"Meaty" - also sometimes referred to as 'brothy'.  Meat flavor analysis
associates these flavors with maillard and strecker products of the amino
acids cystein, glutamine and methionine.  Also various products of these and
carbonyl groups and fatty acids.  Note that fermentation removes virtually
all of the glutamine from beer.  I don't have figures on the cysteine and
methionine content of wort, but the levels in finished beer are quite low
and the levels in yeast are considerable.  Commercially artificial meat
broth is made from these amino acids, but also from yeast hydrosylate (read
the package labels).  The yeast hydrosylate is made by salting the yeast to
extract water, then the yeast are steam heated.  The result is 'cooked' in
order to create the flavorful breakdown products for the meat flavor.  The
unpleasant flavors of nutritional yeast are related to the very high
thiamine levels.  The more pleasant flavors from glutamic acid and
5'-nucleosides.

"Yeasty" - I'm a little less convinced that 'yeasty' flavors can be
attributed to autolysate rather than just the presence of yeast, autolysed
or not.

"Rubbery" - this comes from Dave Miller's old book.  Miller has taken to
calling the  aroma "sulfury" more recently and I think this is a better
description.  M&BS claims that SO2 from normal brewing and yeast breakdown
are both due to an enzyme that released sulfur from cysteine.

So there is good reason to think that all of these flavors are possible from
autolysing yeast.

In addition we should expect that all of the fatty acids of the yeast cell
would be released.  These will kill head as will the proteases eventually
and of course oxidized fatty acids, assuming they oxidize, give a
distinctive off-aroma that is repugnant and easily detected.  I suspect this
combined with the sulfury note gives rise to the "rubbery" aroma
description.

On the positive side consider that sparkling wines in particular, but also
chardonnay and even some red wines PURPOSELY include yeast autolysis
products.  The "toasty, nutty, bready and perhaps yeasty" flavors attributed
to fine champagne are a direct result of yeast autolysis.  Such wines may be
stored for 30 months on the yeast.  So the story isn't entirely a negative
one.
- --

Back to beer.  George says that he tastes autolysis in 3 weeks on ale yeasts
!  I find this alarming - it is not what I experience.

First - I am familiar with the aroma of autolysing yeast aroma - when I
occasionally dump yeast down my basement sink (as opposed to the toilet -
with a gas trap) and fail to follow with a wash.  The decaying yeast aroma
comes back up a grate a couple days later.  Meaty, sulfury, and rancid oil
descriptions all apply -  'dead mouse' hits close to home, tho more sulfury
and less oily.  Not something you'd seek in a beer.  Sometimes that last
half glass of beer from a keg contains an off aroma. I suspect that some of
the fine yeast sediment has been exposed to CO2 rather than under beer and
autolyses.

To date I've detected a similar aroma in a yeast culture of mine exactly
once.  This yeast had growth problems and was subsequently stored under beer
for a couple months.  I've also seen sulfury notes from yeast cultures
stored a long time.  I've never tasted anything even vaguely similar in any
beer of mine, except for some that were severely oxidized (leaky keg
gaskets).  These oxidized beers had oxidized oils, and trans-nonenol
cardboard aromas, but not especially sulfury or meaty ones and no loss of
head.

A good friend of mine brews a rather astonishing stout.  I once tasted a
version of this stout that had been something like 6 months on yeast and not
stored at low temps (we're talking Arizona garage floor temps - right Mark
?).   The head and flavor were very good, and there was a flavor note that I
would call 'nut-like' that might be attributed to the yeast.  The yeast mass
was a nice bright beige, not the brown-orange associated with decaying
yeast.

>From what I read autolysis is not an immediate consequence of yeast death,
and a large number of factors play in it's course -  temp, ions, pH and of
course yeast variety and health.    If I were sensing meaty sulfury notes
and loss of head in a beer after 3 weeks on yeast, then I too would practice
the methods George mentions.  The reasons why I am not and George is might
be our sensitivity to this type of flaw, or might be due to the relative
state of the yeast mass, ions, etc we get at EOF.

I know from private email some others well known HBDers often lets their
beers sit on yeast for extra weeks as do I - from laziness, or lack of time.
I doubt they'd do this (nor would I) if we perceived a definite flavor
problem.  I sometimes let mine sit 6-8 weeks from pitching - tho' always at
cool (~55F) temps. I am not denying George's experience - just saying it
isn't what I see under my brewing conditions, using my nose and tongue for
observation.

Anyone else care to comment on whether they do or do-not detect flavor
problems from keeping beer on yeast beyond 3 weeks ?

Do you use a secondary fermentor regularly George to help prevent this ?

Steve




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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:27:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: using gelatin while dry hopping

I have not tried using finings (gelatin or isinglass) before and I wanted
to try using some gelatin in an IPA that's in the primary fermenter.  From
what I've seen by searching the HBD, one should dissolve a packet of
unflavored Knox gelatin into some boiled water and then pour that into
your secondary fermenter a day or two before bottling.  However, I will be
dryhopping this beer in the secondary for at least one week prior to
bottling by sprinkling whole leaf hops into the secondary fermenter.  Will
my beer clear if I add the gelatin before the hops and then let the beer
sit for a week?  How do most people out there use gelatin while dry
hopping?  Any thoughts on using isinglass vs. gelatin?  I understand
isinglass must be used while controlling temperature and pH but some, such
as Dave Miller, claim isinglass is fantastic vs. gelatin (though gelatin
seems very easy to use).  I'm not big on making my beer crystal clear but
I am beginning to enter beers into competitions and want to find some easy
ways to improve beer clarity.
 
Thanks in advance,
Adam Holmes
Fort Collins, CO



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Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:43:20 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer.

It's getting boring in here!!!

For all you math whizzes I have a problem for you.  
It is a heat exchanger for a HERMS type system.   I 
played with it and messed with it until I realized 
that I hated the stupid equation in college and still 
have a poor understanding of how it works.  Can I get 
some help, it exceeds my math abilities and I thought 
you brewers might find it interresting.  

A 10 foot coil is submerged in a tank of 180 degree F. water.
The coil is 1/2 inch ID with a 1/16 inch wall thickness 
(5/8 inch OD).  Water is moving through the coil is at a volume 
of 6.8 gallons per minute(yep, 1/25hp pump).   The total volume 
of water at start is 2.5 gallons and the starting temperature 
is 120 degrees F.   Assume that the tank water remains constant 
at 180 F. and is in constant motion (non-static).  Assume no heat 
losses in connecting lines.   How long does it take to raise the 
water temperature 20 degrees and what is the temperature coil 
output side at the beginning and end of the rise.   How long 
does it take if the starting temperature is 130 F.  Repeat for 
a 15ft and 20 ft coil.

My biggest problem is the fact that the OD and ID walls 
have different areas and setting the equality is causing 
me problems.  I've only done this equation for flat 
surface areas like glass and walls and like I said, 
I hated it then.

So you don't have to work as hard, here's two equations.  
If you know better, fine, I'm an idiot.

Active  Q=ke^(a X delta T)  and Passive Q=(k a ((th - tc)time)/d

Where:
Q the heat conducted through the Material---
k  is the thermal conductivity---
A is the area of the material---
th is the hot side temperature---
tc is the cold side temperature---
time is Uh DUH.... time----
d is the thickness of the material----
e is the natural log----
I have no idea what X stands for in the exponent

k for copper is 400 J-m/(sec)(m^2)(Degrees C.) or 2476
BTU-in/(ft^2)(hr)(degree F.)--------
k for water is   .6     J-m/(sec)(m^2)(Degrees C.) or  4.14
BTU-in/(ft^2)(hr)(degree F.)---------

Converted to square  inches ( I hope this is right) k for copper is 17.187
BTU-in/(in^2)(min)(degreeF.) and the same value of k for water is .02875
BTU-in/(in^2)(min)(degreeF.)
I'll even give you some data.

The volume of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is .01636 cu. in.
The ID area of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is  .0981 sq ft
The OD area of 1 ft of 1/2" copper tube is .1962 sq ft.
There is 231 cu in in a gallon of water.

If that's too easy, try wort at 1.052 SG.  I have no idea 
what the k for that is.  It would be nice to have this 
data in the archive.  PLEEEEEEEZE!!!!


Any takers.  I have a rough idea of the outcome but 
frankly, I'm lost.  You can send it to me and I'll tell 
you why I need it or you can post it to the HBD.
Please copy me on HBD posts.  Thanks.

Rod Prather.


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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:44:15 -0500
From: "Tim Green" <timgreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum Alcohol

One more note of maximum alcohol levels in fermented beverages, Wyeast sells
a yeast they call Eau de Vie (water of life) #3347. They sell it for
starting stuck fermentations and the production of single-malt beverages.
They claim the alcohol tolerance of the yeast is 21%.

I currently have a mead in progress using this yeast. It has currently gone
completely dry in flavor twice using up a total of 24# of honey. I fed again
last night with another 5# of honey and it is happily bubbling away again.

I am trying to make a sweet honey cordial style beverage and I have high
hopes!

Tim Green



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:05:14 +1000
From: hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp (Mutsuo Hoshido)
Subject: Sake brewery one day brewing job experience

It is now sake brewing season in Japan.
Small sake brewers without modern air conditioners condust
their sake brewing only during winter, from November to
mid March.

Some of the sake brewers are very kind to invite sake lovers
to their plant tour including sake tasting.

I could find a very small hand made sake brewer which let
us give a chance to actually conduct a brewing job together
with the president who is now also a brewmaster.

It took almost 9 hours from 9:00 to 18:00 with lunch break.

It costs only 3000yen including lunch and 1.8L sake souvenir,
wich will be later sent to our home after bottling the result of
our job.

Matsuo sake brewing company Ltd. is the name of the plant.
Mr.Mitomo Matsubara is the president and brewmaster.
Address is 180 Fujiokaotsu Fujioka-shi Gunnm-ken Japan
Phone +81-274-22-0022  Fax +81-274-24-0544

He has only three stuffs there.  Around 18 klitters production
amount.

He let us spread steam cooked about 200kg rice on a big hemp
cloth put on a big bamboo thin container to cool down directly
by our hands.

After that he let us cary the around 28deg C cooled rice
into Koji growing room which is controlled about 40deg C,very hot.

We pitch dry koji-kin or koji-fungi on the rice in the koji-fermenter.
We also remove and cool down the already prepared very beautiful
sake koji ,which were set previou day,on the other hemp cloth put on
the other bamboo thin container.

We experienced very strictly time controlled rice washing and
soaking to give a acculate amount of water content in the rice.

We also conducted fermenter stiring and watched the sample measuring
process.

After a day rather hard job, we could enjoy all kinds of sake he
produced there.

Our members were four homebrewers and two sake lovers.

We could get a lot of very fruitful information for home brewing.




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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:40:55 -0500
From: Marc Hering <mhering at acd-pc.com>
Subject: odor in beer?

Greetings Homebrew gurus, 

I am having a bit of a wierd problem that noone I have asked can seem to
figure out, 
my last batch was a strawberry ale (kind of a mishmash brew,,,mostly using
up things I had left over) and while it tastes just fine, (hint of
strawberry but not too overpowering) it has a really bad odor.I used
Dextrine malt and 2 row barley. Light Drymalt Extract, Cascade and Saaz
Hops. I threw 6 lbs of fresh strawberrys into my secondary fermenter (after
heating them to 150 for about 10 min or so then letting them cool down) and
I used about a cup and a half of dry malt extract instead of botteling
sugar.  
I am still trying to learn and I will admit that there are things that I
probably should know but don't. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
or at least tell me what I did wrong?

Thanks in advance!!

Marc  
*******************************************
       MURPHY's LAW ON THE WORLD
"The sum of the intelligence of the planet 
is constant; the population is growing."
*******************************************


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:47:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Kirk Ramsay <kramsa41 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Scrapyard Jewels

I have had the good fortune to have gained access to a GREAT scrapyard
full of nice LARGE SS vessels.  Some of these are large enough for me
to stand in.  I can get them for the price of scrap ($.75/lb).  The
problem I see is that I don't know the "history" (ie: Chemical use) of
these.  They are spotlessly clean, and have drains and fittings
attached.  I would say they were in a lab as opposed to an industrial
area.

My question is this, can these be rendered "safe" to use in the
brewing process without knowing what they were used for.  
Thanks,
Kirk




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DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:06:09 -0500 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Yeast Development

	
> >From: asmith at apollo.org (Andrew Smith)
> >Now, homebrewers, brewpubs and microbreweries use these strains which are
> >commercially available for their own brews. My question is: do many
> >microbreweries select develop these yeasts so that they end up with what
> is
> >their own proprietary yeast? How do they do it? Have any homebrewers done
> >this? I would guess that it's a very skilled area, but there's quite an
> >appeal in a yeast that you've adapted yourself to give good results in
> your
> >own brewing equipment and with the types of beers that you brew.
> >
> >Any comments on this?
> 
> Andrew,
> 
> I am not aware of any micros or brew pubs who are "developing" their own
> yeast.  Which is not to say that none do,  just that it isn't very
> prevalent.  All of the yeast that I have seen that is commercially
> available (to homebrewers, at least) is obtained from one of those
> traditional brewers to which the particular style is well known.  I would
> guess that it is not practical for small breweries to develop their own
> strain due to cost considerations.  Many just don't have the resources or
> expertise.  I'm sure that only the largest would find that the expense is
> justified by the distinction of being the only brewery using strain XYZ.
> The yeast used by numerous popular micros is known to be the same strain
> obtained from one of the traditional breweries and sold by Wyeast or one
> of the other yeast merchants.  Some breweries consider this proprietary
> information, but some are very open with it.
> 
> From my understanding (questionable data alert....) yeast being a living
> organism is not trademark-able.  So, any one who gets a sample from said
> brewery is able to reproduce it and sell it.  Now I suppose that one would
> get in trouble legally if you attempted to sell "Sierra Nevada's yeast",
> named as such.  So, what we see is "Chico" or American Ale yeast.  You can
> typically find pedigree type information that enables you to decide if the
> yeast you want to buy is going to give characteristics similar to the
> style or clone you want to make, and most often you the original source is
> available, if not directly from the company selling the yeast.  A number
> of yeast databases are around that tell you all you need to know.  IMHO,
> there are enough different yeasts available cheaply that it is not worth
> it to develop your own.  That is unless you just want to do it for your
> own enjoyment.
> 
> I'm sure that there's a lot more to be said on the subject, but this is a
> start.
> 
> Scott
> Brewing in Columbia, SC
> 


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