---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Small brown beer bottles?, RIMS Controller? (Joy Hansen)
  DMS; Westvletern & Oud Bruin; Mead & Lambic fermentation (Ted McIrvine)
  small bottles (Jason.Gorman)
  Dispense pressure & Xtract CAP ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Carboy cleaning... (BlkCloud)
  Home Brew Recipe (John Varady)
  re : interesting Wheat Beer ("Alan McKay")
  barleywine bottles (Alan Edwards)
  Brewers East End Revival (B.E.E.R.) 1999 Brew-Off Homebrew Competition (Kevin Basso)
  Good brewpubs in Cleveland?, (Gillespie)
  Steam RIMS (Kyle Druey)
  Autoclaving Bottles (Tom Franklin)
  "Corney Kegs" ("Bill Tobler")
  Back door dealings / Open fermenters ("George De Piro")
  Flagging interest in homebrew? ("Sieben, Richard")
  Low Attenuation/Slow Yeast Start ("Penn, John")
  Water aeration and gott ("Eric P. Reimer")
  re : wort pH ("Alan McKay")
  Belgium beer attractions (Mark Swenson)
  its' a business, palms, plambic (Jim Liddil)
  RE:  Judging variability ("George De Piro")
  Re: Backdoor purchases. (Ross Reid)
  Alcohol Formulas (AJ)
  seeking pump experience ("Alan McKay")
  Maple, a note from a friend (Charley Burns)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild's 13th annual Big and Huge - 28
March 1999:  Rules and forms at www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:56:00 -0500
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Small brown beer bottles?, RIMS Controller?

Stephen Klump and Thomas Murray posted commentary regarding bottles for
strong ales.

At one time, I envisioned a whole storage area for the blue Sam Adams aged
barley wine bottles, neatly refilled with my brews.  Unfortunately, my
wallet emptied before I accumulated many and my spouse appropriated those
that I did collect for her own purposes!

Anyway, when I frequented "Bars" in the 50's, there was a bottle size called
a "pony" or about 6 ounces.  Just a scaled down version of the common brown
beer bottle.  Does anyone know if these are still available as "no-return"?
If not, possibly the manufacturer has a store house full just waiting for
the home brew market?

OTOH, As far as I read, only traditional 12 ounce beer  bottles are allowed
in competitive events.  Say you produce an outstanding brew.  How can you
receive recognition from brewing peers?  Could you give up 3 + bottles of a
great strong ale?

RIMS controller?

I've constructed several of the controllers described by R. Morris in the
1992 Zymurgy.  Apparently, the parts tolerances or other unknowns have a
tremendous affect on the 100K pot setting.

Problem:

          The typical ambient temperature for my brew day is about 50
degrees F.  I heat the strike water with RIMS to 105 degrees.  The 100K pot
must be turned clockwise to almost the end of the rotation to produce the
on/off cycle.   The approach current to the set temperature doesn't seem to
operate properly at this pot setting.  It's either full on or off.   Later
in the mash schedule, the pot must be rotated completely counter clockwise
for the on/off cycle.  In this pot position, the approach current performs
satisfactorily.  The variable power to the heating element is verified with
a clamp on ampere meter.

This isn't a completely intolerable situation.  It just requires spinning
the to turn pot to the opposite end of the dial.  My 12 hour brew days have
a lot of wheel spinning.

Question:

           What part (parts) could cause such a difference in the setting of
the 100K pot with relation to the on/off cycle?  Is the 5.6K resistor in
series with the 100K pot and 100K thermister the likely culprit.   5.6K
seems miniscule as compared to 200K?  Or can it be the output of the TLC 555
low power timer?

          I would like to continue using the R. Morris controller due to
it's low cost when wire wrapped and salvage parts are available.
Rebuilding a failed board is fairly simple and inexpensive since the high
cost items are reusable.

           I was informed by Digi Key that the CA 3059 zero volt crossing
switch is out of production.  Does anyone know of a direct replacement or a
replacement that would take minor modification of the R. Morris controller
circuit?

           A recommendation that I replace the 8.2K two watt resistor with a
10K resulted in a smoked controller (the wire wound resistor in place of the
film type resistor burned out immediately and destroyed the CA 3059 when the
power was applied). Is a wire wound resistor an acceptable replacement for a
film type resistor?

On motorized mills?

What's the inherent problem with using a high torque/low speed electric
drill to power the mill?  I've milled a hundred brewings with my  electric
drill without a problem.




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:19:57 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: DMS; Westvletern & Oud Bruin; Mead & Lambic fermentation

> From: Steven Gibbs <gibbs at lightspeed.net>
> Dear Collective:
> I recently brewed a Munich Lager with about 60% Munich malt, 35%
> Weyerman German Pils, and the balance in Carapils, Choc., Belg. bisq.,
> and a touch of crystal. here's my problem: I tasted the beer and it 
> absolutely reeks of DMS/cooked corn/cabbage.
> 
> I have never had this sort of problem with one of my lagers, and
> especially a dark lager. 

When I do a dark lager, a long boil and a long cold secondary
fermentation usually drives off the DMS.  Lighter lagers pose a bigger
problem.  Darryl Richman in "Bock" writes that this "adds lager flavor
and enhances the malt character."  Sometimes a secondary or tertiary
fermentation in a keg allows one to purge some of the DMS aroma with
carbon-dioxide.

From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
> Subject: Westvleteren Yeast / Bulk Buy
> 
> I received a vial of Westvleteren yeast as a prize from the Saccharomyces
> Supply Company in MA. I have never had a beer from this abbey and therefore
> have no idea of the profile of the strain. Is this yeast appropriate
> for a tripel (or a wit)?

Westvleteren is a terrific beer, one of my favorites.  It reminds me of
Gouden Carolous, only even better.  It has plum/nut type of esters and
is well-attenuated.  I think it would make a great Trippel.  I'm not
sure it will provide the type of esters and acidity that one may want in
a wit.

Somewhere else in today's digest, someone asked about Oud Bruin.  This
is Flanders Brown ale, OG 48-56 with some pleasant acidity.  The
best-known commercial example is Liefmann's Goudenband.  The acidity is
similar to a wit, and a little less wild than the most untamed lambics.

> From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
> Subject: never done a mead or a pLambic for that matter...
> 
> hi,
> so i've never done a mead before. Thinking of doing one. i don't know
> much about it, and I want to do it right. I'm more than willing to take
> the time it takes etc....
> 
> i'm looking for idiot proof directions on making a high quality mead.
> 
> i'd love recipe's/input on mead and plambic. I'm not interested in
> adding fruit to either, and would like a still mead.
> 
> I may be moving in 6 mos. or so. If I have a mead and or pLambic in a
> fermentor at this time, is it the going to hurt to move it? 

I make a lot of mead and used to make a lot of lambics.  The first thing
you should know is that the honey should be heated to pasteurization
temperatures (140-160 for ten minutes) and NOT boiled.  

The second thing is that honey is lousy as a yeast nutrient and the PH
can be too high if you don't do something to compensate.  I add one or
more of the following to acidify and to help the yeast:  unfermented
beer wort, acid blend (lactic, tartaric etc.), fruit, and yeast hulls. 
(The easest way to get yeast hulls is to boil the yeast cake from the
bottom of a previous fermentation.)

A plain mead or plain lambic may not take as long to ferment as one with
fruit.  Mead oxidizes very easily, so I would avoid moving mead in a
fermenter, especially if you are changing residences.  And the lambic
film also prevents oxidization.  So a six month fermentation followed by
bottling will probably be fine.

Ted
- -- 
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com
College of Staten Island/CUNY
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/academia/programs/mus.html
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/arts/calendar.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:34:00 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: small bottles

FYI....  I have successfully capped 7 oz. Butt (I mean Bud) and Butt Lite
bottles.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:58:16 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dispense pressure & Xtract CAP

Kyle Druey mentions, "Something interesting he
mentioned, Miller and Bud are dispensed at 12 psi and need
5' of 3/16" tubing, but Coors is dispensed at 14 psi and
needs 6' of 3/16" tubing."
 Something else you may not have realized by this information is these
pressures are for 2.5 to 2.6 volumes at 40 degrees F, not ice cold
like they advertize!! One other dispense oddity; air-blenders are used
in "long-draw" systems. Air-blenders mix compressed air with CO2 so the
high pressures in a long-draw system does not over carbonate the beer.
If hop aroma and then hop bitterness are the first things to fade due to
oxidation, then it only makes sense to brew a beer with no hop character
so it will not show the oxidation effects when delivered thruogh a
blended air system. 


Randy Erickson says,"Someone, Del Lansing as I recall, advocates using 
two
4# cans
of Premiere Reserve Cream Ale..."
  The Cream Ale kit is what used to be called "Blue Ribbon", malt made by

Premier for Pabst. To minimize carmelization in that recipe you should 
add
one can at the beginning of the boil, do your hop additions, then 5 
minutes
before the end of the boil add the other can. Of course a full 5 gallon
boil
will also help the wort darkening problem. They didn't allow much space 
in 

that sidebar and luckily the gibberish they were going to print was 
caught
and they gave me all of 5 hours before deadline to come up with revised
copy.
  If you can do a  partial mash you can mash 2 pounds of flaked maize 
with
3 pounds of_6 Row_malt. Mash these at about 156 to 158 degrees. When
complete
by the iodine test (about 15-20 minutes)
add this liquor to 4 lb. dry or 5 lb liquid pale extract + water to 5.5
gallons
Hop this with about 5.8 to 6 HBU for 60 minutes, the same addition for 30

minutes and about an 1 1/2 ounce at knockout.
  The 2035 is a good yeast, just a little drier finish than I prefer.
Have fun!

N.P. (Del) Lansing

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:02:41 EST
From: BlkCloud at aol.com
Subject: Carboy cleaning...

I have always used good old trisodium phosphate (aka TSP) to clean everyting
including bottel lable removals.  The standard concentration is 2 TBL per 5
gal. of water.  This strength is adequate to clean and not remove skin off
your hands.  Since the purpose of this stuff is to remove wallpaper (in much
higher concentrations), one has to be careful of getting this stuff in your
eyes etc.  The general rule for me is to always rinse three times.  This has
worked well and I have never met brewing crud that this couldn't deal with.

While I don't know any real negatives to your habit of leaving your carboys in
idophor solution for months, I know that it has a tendency to stain things.  I
have also wondered about the "life" of the idophor solution.  Recently I have
left it in a bucket for a week or more and observed a color change from it's
normal pale yellow to a more pale yellow-white.  What I have been taught that
this stuff is effective after only two minutes.  I hate to throw the stuff out
after each batch but my sanitation regime requires it.  

Hope this helps.  

BTW by your email address you work for Bechtel.  I am a former Bechtelite and
worked in the G-berg office for 8 years.  

Tim Morgan
Black Cloud Brewery
Petaluma CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:07:26 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Home Brew Recipe

I was making some additions to my homepage and was adding a section about
hot peppers, a burning passion of mine. Here is a recipe for hot pepper
sauce that I make. It's about as hot as tabasco, which to my tastebuds is
just right.

Boneyard Barley Wine Hot Sauce

6 oz   Home Brewed Barley Wine
6 oz   White Vinegar
30-40  Home Grown Cayenne Peppers
1 tsp  Sea Salt

Roast the Cayenne Peppers in a 200F oven for 5-6 hours until dried. Combine
Barley Wine and Vinegar in a sauce pan and heat to simmering. Allow to
simmer for about 5 mins or until it no longer smells of alcohol. Put the
dried peppers in a food processor or blender and add 1/2 of the beer/vinegar
mixture. Process until a paste is formed, adding more of the beer/vinegar
mixture as required to reach the consistancy of tomato sauce. Pour mixture
through a wire mesh strainer to remove the larger pieces of skin and seeds
and then pour into a bottle.

Use caution when making hot sauces. Always wash your hands before rubbing
your eyes, playing with yourself, or getting frisky with the old lady
(she'll appreciate it!).

This fall I plan on making it with some home made vinegar as well. I have 5
gallons of porter that have been sitting in my cellar for about 15 months
now that I plan on putting a vinegar culture in soon. This should yeild 5
gallons of tasty malt vinegar.

Later and Enjoy

John
- -- 
John Varady                     The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing                Custom Neon Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA                            Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net                  http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:09:02 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : interesting Wheat Beer

George De Piro writes :

Another reason to promote hot break formation is that these large 
proteins can inhibit fermentation by physically blocking the 
yeast membrane from absorbing nutrients.  This idea is discussed 
in both Kunze's book _Technology Brewing and Malting_ (p. 292) 
and Warner's book _Koelsch_ (p. 71).

To which I respond :

That's not suprizing, considering that Warner probably learned
it from Kunze in the first place, since that would have been the
textbook he used at Weihenstephan.

And what an awesome book it is!

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: barleywine bottles


After Peter Bertone mentioned them in the HBD, I send mail to Presque
Isle Wine Cellars inquiring about their 187mL champagne bottles:
> 
> A fellow homebrewer mentioned that you carry 187mL champagne bottles for
> $7.30 per case (24).  Can they be crown-capped?  If so, can you send me
> a catalog?

I received this reply today:
| 
| The 187mL bottles mentioned in the HBD posting are no longer available.
| We do have a 200mL bottle in clear which will take a standard crown cap.
| Price per case of 24 is $8.44, not including shipping.
|  
| Thanks for the request.
|  
| Bob

Peter wrote:
> PIWC's phone number is 814-725-1314 (info) 800-488-7492 (orders), email
> prwc at erie.net.


So, if you keep them in the dark, they should work fine.

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:52:04 -0500
From: Kevin Basso <KevinB at AWSPERRY.COM>
Subject: Brewers East End Revival (B.E.E.R.) 1999 Brew-Off Homebrew Competition

Brewers East End Revival (B.E.E.R.)
1999 Brew-Off Homebrew Competition

Saturday, April 24, 1999

A special BREWMASTER'S CUP award will be presented for the beer chosen 
to be brewed at John Harvard's Brewhouse in Lake Grove. This is your 
chance to have your homebrew recipe brewed and served by one of New 
York's premier brewers.

See New Web Page Link for Details...

http://www.homebrewshop.com/beer-club/beer-contest.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:20:42 -0500
From: Gillespie <dlgilles at net-link.net>
Subject: Good brewpubs in Cleveland?,

I'm going to be spending a night in Cleveland in a few weeks and there
are a lot of brewpubs there. Anyone recommend one or two in particular?
Easy to find would be a bonus. Thanks a lot....Don Gillespie, in
Kalamazoo,   please reply to
dlgilles at net-link.net



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:12:51 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Steam RIMS

I have some additional information to report on steam RIMS.  Like
William
Macher, I too setup a prototype and have mashed twice with it.  I
attached a 1/4" soft copper line to a 6 qt. pressure cooker and inserted
the line into the mash bed and let it steam away.  The first brew I
achieved a temp. rise rate of 1.5F/min using a 1000W hot plate, this was
with a 16 qt. mash.  The second trial I put the pressure cooker on a
large stove element (maybe 2200W?) and got a temp rise rate of 3.5 F/min
with a 20 qt mash.  For both I also used my 1000W rims heating element
which provides a temp rise rate of 1 to 2 F/min depending on the mash
volume.  For the second brew, I raised the mash from 102F to 150F in 11
minutes!

I was too nervous to hard pipe the steam line into my rims heating
chamber, but it looks like William Macher had no problems with this, so
I think I will give it a try.  For the next trial, I am going to replace
the 1/4" soft copper tubing with 1/4" flexible ss hose that is commonly
used to deliver NG to household appliances.  This will make the steam
line somewhat flexible, and I think I will use some foam pipe insulation
on it, that steam line gets hot!

Fouch has joined the RIMS club, Fred Garvin rules.

Kyle
brewing in the arm pit of CA, Bakersfield


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:56:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Franklin <tommfranklin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Autoclaving Bottles

Hi All,

A question for those who have used an Autoclave for bottles:

I have a chance to use an Autoclave to sanitize bottles.  Some of my
bottles have had all the labels removed, some have not.

Will there be any problems if I put bottles into an Autoclave that still
have labels on them?  

thanks,

tom


===
Tom Franklin
Raleigh, NC

Listen to "Kite Site Nights"  at  Imagine Radio
http://www.imagineradio.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=tomfranklin

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:07:16 +0000
From: "Bill Tobler" <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: "Corney Kegs"

I Kegged my first batch a few weeks ago, and I'm afraid that I may not get
to see my beer age anymore.  Maybe I should bottle at least a six pack out
of every batch.  Anyway, to my question, my  last batch, I used an  old
Corney as a secondary.  I shortened the dip tube by an inch, purged with
CO2, and siphoned into the dip tube, with an open quick connect on the gas
side. (attached a small hose from the gas side into a cup of boiled water to
keep out the nasties)  I let it sit a week, then siphoned into a dispensing
keg, cooled and carbonated.  Worked great.  I heard somewhere that a corney
doesn't make a good primary because of it's shape or something, but how
about a secondary?  The big advantage is the "bumpless transfer", no O2 in
the beer.  Does anyone go through the trouble to go from 6' dispensing hose
to 5', if foaming becomes a problem?  Do you think a foot makes enough of a
difference?  Thanks.

"To Better Brewing"

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, Texas.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999  8:56 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Back door dealings / Open fermenters

     Hi all,
     
     I agree that whining about one's business problems is probably 
     the worst way to address them.  It can only lead to a vacant 
     store front.  If a business is losing customers because of 
     competitive pricing, the business owner must find a way to reduce 
     price while maintaining profit.  One way to do this is to reduce 
     business costs. (this is economics 101)
     
     A homebrew shop owner is paying very high shipping costs for 
     their goods.  They are also purchasing supplies in relatively 
     small quantities, further increasing the cost of the goods.  It 
     would behoove the homebrew shop owner to enter into a "back door" 
     deal with a local brewery and purchase supplies from them, thus 
     increasing profit by reducing costs.
     
     As an example, the price for shipping malt from North Country 
     Malt Supply (extreme upstate NY) to a point within NY State 
     starts at about $75.  If you are a homebrew shop purchasing 5 
     sacks of malt, the shipping costs $15 per bag!  The malt costs 
     $25, so the price per sack becomes a whopping $40!  You can see 
     how the shipping is eating into the profits more than a tad.
     
     That same $75 can pay for the shipping for as much as 37 sacks of 
     grain.  That's $2.03 per bag, a fairly substantial savings.  A 
     deal between a homebrew shop and a local brewery would benefit 
     all parties involved:
     
     1.  The local brewery only has to deal with one homebrew 
     customer, thus simplifying ordering and product pickup.
     
     2.  The brewshop owner gets a better deal on the supplies, thus 
     increasing profit while not gouging customers.
     
     3.  Homebrewers get a better deal on supplies.  Granted, it may 
     not be quite as great a deal as they would get directly from a 
     brewery, but there will be times when the local brewery is just 
     too busy to run a marginally profitable homebrew supply business 
     on the side, and the homebrewers will be left out in the cold.
     
     These deals are not only restricted to grains; hops are cheaper 
     when bought in bulk, as are things like cleaning supplies (PBW, 
     etc.).
     
     Executing an idea like this is much more likely to keep a 
     homebrew shop profitable than whining about how customers owe it 
     to you to pay higher prices at your store because you got them 
     started in the hobby.  Reality needs to be kept in mind at all 
     times.
     ----------------------------------
     Over the past couple of weeks some people have talked about the 
     joys of using open fermenters, describing them as a plastic 
     bucket covered with plastic wrap which is secured to the bucket 
     with rubber bands.
     
     Forgive my confusion, but how does this qualify as an open 
     fermenter?  It is sealed about as well as a bucket with a lid and 
     an airlock, or a carboy with an airlock.  A truly open fermenter 
     is OPEN to the atmosphere!  There is likely to be some mixing of 
     air and CO2 at the surface of the fermenting beer, which may 
     affect fermentation in ways that are desirable for certain 
     yeasts.  Covering a bucket with plastic wrap will create an 
     atmosphere within the fermenter that is similar to that within a 
     carboy.
     
     A nit, perhaps, but it's one that was bugging me.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:16:31 -0600
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Flagging interest in homebrew?

I have been in this hobby for about 5 years now and I had not noticed a
flagging interest in this hobby.  But, I have noticed that the number of
half assed homebrew shops have declined, leaving the better ones behind.  I
would assume this is a matter of survival of the fittest (those shops that
actually give good service and advice at a reasonable price).  I have not
personally noticed a drop in the number of people brewing, but that may be
due to my personal evangelizing of brewing. (I have personally taught, about
8 other people how to brew over the years and we do group brew sessions a
few times a year.)  
	If there has been a decline, my guess would be that 1)there is a lot
of good beer available on the market now, thus reducing the need to make it
yourself, and 2) with the full employment situation of our economy for the
last several years, only the most dedicated want to spend what little spare
time they have to brew.  We do live in a fast food, instant gratification
society now and beer production takes time.  A lot of us are required to be
'working couples' and that means dividing regular household chores, thus
leaving less time for all day brew adventures.  Maybe that holds the clue to
how we keep / gain more homebrewers, someone needs to make an affordable way
to brew quality beer with less time required.  Time can be saved at many
points, but the experienced homebrewer will want to shy away from extract
brewing (I think) to get better quality/taste.  This has always meant MORE
TIME.  Hmmmm  well, a nice RIMS system that can be run by an old pc might
make mashing a mindless task like a breadmaker, but it will have to be
priced like a breadmaker to sell a lot of them.  (I know, I'm not in it for
a mindless task either as I really enjoy  mashing as are most who probably
reads HBD, but we are trying to reach out to those who would brew if it was
easier.)  This would be a proposition for the HB stores like wireless phone
companies have made to their customers, sell the equipment cheap and keep
the customer coming back for air time (HB supplies in this case).  \

Well, it was just a first thought, take it and run with it.

Brew forth and swill no more.

Rich Sieben


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:19:11 -0500
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Low Attenuation/Slow Yeast Start

	My recent IPA had an unexpectedly high final gravity and I had
asked about Morgan's Ale yeast.  Well I found part of the answer last
night when I was looking at Al Korzonas' Homebrewing I book.  I forgot
about Al's extensive appendix that includes the dry yeast as well as the
liquid yeasts.  From AlK's book, Morgan's ale yeast is a 70-75%
attenuator which is lower than the 75-80% that I get from Nottingham.
Now I have another question regarding my low attenuation.  

The background...   After pitching Nottingham yeast and aerating then
having no activity for about 24 hrs, I pitched some Morgan's dry ale
yeast into the wort.  I did not rehydrate either yeast packet (I know I
should, but it seems to work OK even if I don't) and I did not aerate a
second time when I pitched my Morgan's ale yeast 24 hrs later.  Also,
the Morgan's ale yeast was not especially fresh.  My expected FG with
Nottingham was about 1.010-13 and given Morgan's maybe I should have
gotten 1.012-15.  I measured a final gravity (FG) of 1.019 which was
poor given a 5.5 gallon batch based on 8# of M&F light LME, 1# ~60L
crystal, and 0.75# of brown sugar for an estimated OG of 1.059.  I'm
wondering about 2 possible causes/questions.

Question? How long does the air stay in the wort after aerating?  I
probably should have aerated 24 hrs later since there did not appear to
be any active fermentation/alcohol.

Could the low attenuation also be due to poor health on the yeast?  I
may have overcooled the wort before pitching the Nottingham yeast the
first time.  I like to leave it a little warm when I'm using dry yeast
then let it cool overnight letting the yeast reproduce in a warmer
environment then cooling to fermentation temps overnight.  When I
repitched the Morgans it may have been a little old and without aerating
I don't know if the dissolved air from the previous aeration was still
viable 24 hrs later.  Thanks for any inputs.  I plan on tasting the IPA
tonight and if I'm lucky I won't develop an overcarbonation problem with
time because of the high FG.
   John Penn


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:39:23 -0500
From: "Eric P. Reimer" <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: Water aeration and gott

Hi all,

Thanks to all who have sent replies to my question regarding 
transferring water to a gott without aerating it.  I will post a summary 
when I get a chance.  I am currently too busy with a new future head 
brewer at Barking Dogs.  Baby Rebecca was born Tuesday morning.  (Insert 
may tired happy faces.)

Eric Reimer
Barking Dogs Brewery
London, Ontario


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:44:27 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : wort pH

I once brought my sparge water pH down too low and had this problem.
The beer never cleared no matter how long I kept it in the fridge.
And it tasted really acidy.  I don't know what the wort pH was, but
the sparge water pH was a bit below 5.0.  Waaaaayyyy too low.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:56:46 -0500
From: Mark Swenson <swenson at aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Belgium beer attractions

I have the good fortune to be travelling to Liege, Belgium for a week.  I
will be working most of the time, but I expect to take a day or so on
either side to look around the country.  I wonder if anyone has some
suggestions about where to go for special beer experiences?  Things in or
near Liege would be best, but I do plan a day excursion.  My plane
arrives/departs from Brussels, so something near there would be good too.

Private response are probably best for this.

Thanks.

Mark Swenson
Key Biscayne, FL
Miami Area Society of Homebrewers




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:04:28 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: its' a business, palms, plambic

> Sorry for the long post.
> 
> See ya!
> 
> Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com

I think you exceeded the 8K limit. :-)  As you so eloquently wrote, it is a
business.  If going to online sales or other methods are required then one
must do it.  If you go inot business then you have to compete.  I certainly
prefer to use a local shop, but I have found old ingredients and peeple
running the shops who are less than knowledgeable about what items the
distributors carry.  And when I find insects in my grain that drives the
nail.

> From: TPuskar at aol.com
> Subject: Homebrew supply store list

> My question to the collective is this: Does anyone have a database of
> homebrew shops suitable for a PDA like a Palm Pilot or even in some
> software suitable for a notebook computer?  I usually lug a copy of

As a palm user and someone who is relocating to a new state I can relate.
What I did is go to the SUPPLY section of brewery.org and cut and pasted
the list of shops for CT into a memo.  I am sure it would be easy enough to
convert the html to a doc file (not word, but the file format for longer
text documents used on the palm)or maybe a jfile or handbase file.  I also
checked the AOB site and the rest of the net for any thing not at
brewery.org.
- ------------------------------
> From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
> Subject: never done a mead or pLambic for that matter
> 
> Jim Williams asks about foolproof ways to make mead and pLambic with a
> caveat that he'll be moving in 6 months.  He then states:
> 
>> I know that the pellicle in a Plambic should not be disturbed. It will
> definately be disturbed if I 
>> have to move it to another city!
> 
> I guess it's reasonable not to want to disturb the pellicle on your
> pLambic.  However, sometimes you don't have a choice.


And sometimes we make choices that involve this.  I have to face the
prospect of movers handling close to 40 one gallon bottles of plambic, a 5
gallon carboy and a 10 gallon oak cask.  And I am sure after a 2000 plus
mile road trip they will be well mixed.  So it goes.

Jim Liddil



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999  9:59 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: RE:  Judging variability

     Hi all,
     
     Paul Dey (any relation to Laurie Partridge?) writes about the 
     variability of beer judging, citing the discrepancies between his 
     beer's score at the recent Best of Brooklyn ( score of 24) and 
     Boston Homebrew Competition (score of 38).
     
     Paul makes some good points that I would like to reinforce.  
     There are many reasons for high variability in beer evaluation.  
     Some of them are:
     
     1.  The vast majority of BJCP judges are not professionally 
     trained in beer evaluation skills; they are *hobbyists.*  You have 
     to keep that in mind when entering competitions and assessing the 
     value of their feedback.  Some judges are great, others are less 
     than great, and even a professionally-trained beer evaluator will 
     exhibit variability from day to day.  We are human beings, not gas 
     chromatographs.
     
     2.  The vast majority of BJCP judges are overworked at 
     competitions.  Ideally, you should sample no more than 8 beers in 
     a day.  The porter judges at the Best of Brooklyn had about 13 
     beers just in the morning session (and the flight was split 
     because there were so many entries in the category).
     
     3.  Different people have different levels of acuity with regard 
     to the various compounds that comprise a beer's character.
     
     4.  How was the beer handled in transport and at the contest?  I 
     know of one contest that skunked the beers by storing them in a 
     snow bank (no kidding).
     
     5.  How big where the flights, and what was the level of 
     competition?  This year's Best of Brooklyn received around 40 
     strong ale entries.  Your beer had to be damn memorable to win 
     something in that flight!
     
     An even more extreme example of the variability of amateur beer 
     evaluation can be seen by comparing the Best of Brooklyn to the 
     Boston contest:
     
     The Best of Show winner at the Best of Brooklyn entered about 10 
     beers, and won no fewer than 6 ribbons (including a sweep of the 
     pale ale category and 1st and 2nd for IPA, and BOS for a brown 
     ale).  He entered all of the same beers at the Boston contest, 
     which was the same day, and only won 3rd place for his Altbier.  
     He would say to that it is more worthwhile to enter the Best of 
     Brooklyn...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:28:17 GMT
From: mrreid at golden.net (Ross Reid)
Subject: Re: Backdoor purchases.

The area of Ontario in which I live, although it's called "The Golden
Triangle", is an absolute wasteland for all-grain home brewing supplies.
The few shops there are within a 50 Km radius, concentrate mainly on
wine making and carry only beer kits of dubious freshness.
I'd like to support a local supplier but, at the only shop even
interested in special ordering base malt for me, a 25 kilo sack of 2 row
was quoted at CDN $65.00. 
However, a 25 kilo sack of 2 row, at a local, homebrewer-friendly, micro
costs me CDN $23.00.
Where do you suppose my base malt is purchased? Supporting a local shop
has its limits.
Cheers,
Ross Reid,
Branchton, ON, Canada.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:31:30 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Alcohol Formulas

Peter Ensminger asks me to comment on the apparent discrepancies between
formulas for alcohol content based on gravity measurement. He had
several specific points. I'll take them one by one.

1. The first point was Peter simply pointing out that the formula I
called the "Ensminger fomula" really came from one of Dave Miller's
books. No further comment necessary here. I'll just call it the Miller
formula from here on.

2.> The Balling method AJ gives in HBD 2969 [
>http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/2969.html#2969-5 ] appears to differ
from
>the Balling method given by George Fix several years ago in HBD 880 [
>http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/880.html#880-9 ]:
>ABW = [P(initial) - RE]/[2.0665 - 0.010665*P(initial)]

Indeed it is. One of the things that I most wanted to emphasize in
#2972, http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/2972.html#2972-12, is that there
are multiple ways to model a given data set. DeClerk tabulated Balling's
data in a couple of ways one of which gives a factor which one
multiplies by the apparent extract difference to obtain the alcohol
estimate. I fitted a polynomial to the tabulated data thus making it
possible to obtain a value for any extract difference without
interpolating in the table. My model was

ABW = [P(initial) - P(final)]*[a + b*P(initial) + c*P(initial)^2]

Thus I had to determine values for three parameters, a, b and c, which
cause ABW to best fit the Balling data. Note that I converted ABW to ABV
simply by multiplying by 1.25. This introduces a known modeling error
amounting to .1% (of the answer) per point of FG. The 1.012 FG example I
gave came out to 4.85% ABW. If I had included the FG factor it would
have been 4.91%. Thus I modeled

ABW = 1.25*[P(initial) - P(final)]*[a + b*P(initial) + c*P(initial)^2]

A slightly better model is


ABW = 1.25*SG(Final)*[P(initial) - P(final)]*[a + b*P(initial) +
c*P(initial)^2]

The Fix formula cited by Peter is based on initial extract and real
extract. George used a different model

ABW = [P(initial) - RE]/[a - b*P(initial)]

and estimated the values of  a and b  which made this model best fit the
Balling data (I'm actually only assuming that this is what he did but
it's a good guess even if not correct).

The "Miller" formula uses yet a third model

ABV = (OG - FG)/a

Again, the analyst estimates the value for a which causes the best fit
to measured data. In the case of the formula as given by Miller the
value of 0.75 is not the best value. The Balling data is best fit by a =
0.7748 for my model of #2969 and by a = 0.7624 for my "improved" model.

Other models besides the three given are possible. Generally speaking
the methods used to fit the models to the data are the same (minimize
the mean square error between the measured and modeled data) but the
performance of the models is different. Some models are better than
others and there are ways of detecting this. For example, the Miller
model with a = 0.75 has a bias. But it has the advantage of being easy
to remember and is the simplest. The "Improved AJ" model may be more
accurate but requires three parameters as opposed to two for the Fix
model and 1 for the Miller. Please keep in mind that when I say "more
accurate" it only means with respect to some tabulated numbers in
DeClerk's book. The ultimate accuracy depends upon the validity of these
numbers. It is so important that this be understood that I violated
netiquette in #2972 by using all caps to make this point.

I should also mention that fitting, whatever the model, is a bit of an
art. We can play games to do things like sacrifice model accuracy in
regions we are unlikely to operate in (very high and very low alcohol
content) for the sake of improved accuracy in the regions we do expect
to operate in.

3. Peter's comparison of the three methods show that they agree within
about 0.22% for a particular set of more or less typical values. I think
that's pretty good agreement.

But what everyone wants to know is which method is the "best". As I said
in #2972 that's a tough question. In situations like this societies like
the ASBC run collaborative studies in which, for example, samples of the
same batch of beer are sent to as many laboratories as possible each of
which analyzes the beer using a proposed method. Each laboratory reports
back to the society and the variation in the results are tabulated. The
"coefficient of variation" which is the standard deviation in the
results normalized by the mean is computed. (All the determined values
are averaged, excluding obvious outliers and the deviation of each
measurement from the average computed. These deviations are squared and
summed, the sum divided by the number of measurements and the square
root taken. This is divided by the mean and the quotient multiplied by
100 to give a percentage value).   If the comittee finds the coefficient
of variation acceptable, it proposes the method. In the ASBC MOA's the
collaborative coefficient of variation is given for each method. What
this means is that even though the method may have a built in bias, each
lab that uses that method is subject to the same bias. For example in
Beer-4a, the distillation method, all the alcohol is not recovered and
there is thus a bias. The method underestimates the alcohol content. But
every laboratory underestimates it by the same amount (which is
doubtless much less than the variation) so that 5.00% ABV means the same
thing throughout the industry. That is what we are really after.

To summarize:
1. Alcohol formulas based on gravity measurements involve modeling of
theoretical and laboratory data.
2. There are lots of ways to model a data set and lots of ways to tweak
the model.
3. There are techniques for looking at modeling error which allow the
analyst to assess the quality of the model.
4. There are various measures of goodness for a model which may be
traded according to the analysts desire. Accuracy vs. simplicity is the
obvious one.
5. If a model/method  yields a good coefficient of variation in a
collaborative study and it can reasonably be concluded that the method
is suitable for adoption.
6. Of the three models Peter posted, the agreement was quite good. The
modeling differences are comparable to the differences expected from
hydrometer reading error. The "AJ" model can be "improved" (at the
expense of simplicity) which brings it into closer agreement with the
other two.
7. All the above is based upon the assumption that the Balling model is
correct. We know that its validity varies depending on whether lager or
ale yeast was used and on the extent to which the yeast was aerated at
or before pitching.





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:55 -0600
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: seeking pump experience


Greetings,

I finally broke down and bought a pump - the high temperature (250F) 6144MM
from
Moving Brews.  The fellow from Moving Brews says that on the inlet size I
shouldn't
run a smaller pipe up to the pump, than what's on the inlet of the pump
itself.  This
is repeated in the reading material included with the pump.

This presents a very serious problem for my brewery, as I'm all 3/8" copper,
which
is only about 1/4" ID - quite significantly less than the 1/2" on the pump
inlet.

I had been hoping to hook my pump up like this :

 - Kettle -> CF Chiller -> Pump -> Carboys

But with this requirement mentioned above, I'd have to build a whole new
chiller.
The fellow at Moving Brews recommended I go :

 - Kettle -> Pump -> Chiller -> Carboys

and then replumb between the Kettle and Pump with a thicker copper.
This would certainly be a lot easier than building a new chiller.

But I thought I'd ask what you folks are doing.  Are you all just ignoring
the recommendation and running smaller pipe up to the inlet anyway?
If so, how long have you been doing this?  Which pump are you using?
Have there been any problems resulting?

thanks,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support				amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:36:06 -0800 (PST)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: Maple, a note from a friend

Honest, this really is a note from a friend, it wasn't me...
<snip>
Remember how I like maple (and I remember you don't...)? I had also added
maple at bottling to about six. I added about twice as much as I needed. By
mixing one bottle of this with a bottle of amber, it was pretty tasty to me.
All that sugar though... One morning I walked intothe pantry and it was
covered with glass and beer. One bottle had blown and taken two others out.
The glass was everywhere and I mean everywhere. We have tons of stuff in
there, all kinds of kids art project junk, cooking items, you name it. Took
me about two hours to clean up. And of course I thought, well, must have
just been that bottle. Next f___ing morning, same thing! Ouch! So I dumped
the two or so remaining maples and put all of the rest in tubs (I store my
beer in a bookcase in there you may recall).What a mess. I won't do that
again. I really cannot believe how small of fragements a bottle can go into.
About two weeks ago I took a few bottles to a friend's house, and he said
"hey you cut your finger!" I looked and sure enough it was bleeding. The
cause? Little bit of glass, glued by beer, to a bottle.
<snip>



Return to table of contents

---