---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Beer Judges/Competitions ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Cleaning Carboys and the death of home brewing. (Rod Prather)
  Poor Extraction (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Supporting Local HB Shops?  Do or Don't? (Scott Abene)
  leaving the backdoor, but entering the maibock ("Marc Sedam")
  Lallemand Lag Times (Eric Schoville)
  Re: backdoor dealings (Spencer W Thomas)
  Homebrew Supply Market adnausia ("Donald D. Lake")
  Torrified Wheat: to crush or not? (darrell.leavitt)
  Lager Pitching Temp Compilation (Troy Hager)
  Re: Nottingham Lag Times/Proper use of Dry Yeast ("Philip J Wilcox")
  homebrewing's future (Vachom)
  Garetz ibu formula ("Drew Avis")
  Roots ("Don Glass")
  Demise thread continued. (BsmntBrewr)
  Oud Bruin Netherlands (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Steamy RIMS? (Joy Hansen)
  Chiller Pumps. ("S. Wesley")
  Isolate of Yeast (Tom Franklin)
  Nottingham and sediment on sides of bottles (Matthew Comstock)
  Response to pump question ("George De Piro")
  autoclaving bottles ("Marc Sedam")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild's 13th annual Big and Huge - 28
March 1999:  Rules and forms at www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:09:49 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Beer Judges/Competitions

Paul Dey mentions variability in competitions, and I'd like to add my
own thoughts to his.  When getting your score sheets back, take what the
judges say and compare it to your own thoughts-- judges are certainly
fallible.

One thing to think about when you are unhappy with your numerical score,
though-- these are subjective, not absolute (regardless of what that
chart in the lower left corner says).  If you have a beer in a flight of
fabulous beers, you'll probably score lower than if your beer is in a
flight where every other bottle is infected.

When I judge, the first beer almost invariably hits the high 20's unless
it is significantly flawed.  I don't do that on purpose, it's just that
my senses are acclimating.  From there, every beer gets judged against
the previous beer.  Is this one better or worse than the one I just
had?  And the numerical score will reflect that.  That's why, at the end
of the flight, the top 3 or for beers are re-examined to insure
consistency.  We're human, and our taste buds aren't perfect.

And, finally, different judges pick up different things.  I used to
really have a hard time getting DMS-- I just wasn't used to picking it
up.  Then I met a guy who never missed it-- in fact would claim he could
get a little in a beer that I thought was squeeky clean.  Some folks
have different sensitivities.

Just my $0.02.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:06:19 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Cleaning Carboys and the death of home brewing.

On cleaning carboys....
One little trick I use for scrubbing the inside of a carboy.  Carboy brushes
are quite deficient on the end and you quickly end up scrubbing with the
wire tip.  Take a cloth or a strip of one of those green scrubber pads and
attach it to the end with a wire tie.  A tie wrap would be ok  too but the
cloth needs to be removed for cleaning of the brush.  It works great and you
don't take the chance of scratching the inside of the bottle.

On the demise of home brewing.....
Most home brewers started because they found it slightly cheaper to brew
their own beer.  They preferred the higher quality import and now
microbrewery beers to the American domestics.  They progressed  to all grain
because it is cheaper still, once the equipment is paid for.   Sure some of
us just start because it is interesting.  Most began because it was a cheap
(or cheaper) drunk and then found the true joy in designing your own beers,
researching brew history, etc.   Still, if the price of a 5 gallon carboy of
beer was nearing $50, the price of two cases of an average import or micro
brew, it is doubtful that any of us would be here in the first place and
even more doubtful that we would stay.   In grain, yeast and adjuncts, it
costs around $25 to $30 to brew extract in 5 gallon batches.  About 2/3 that
or less to brew all grain.   It is the cost of a good beer that attracts us
initially.   Although the joy of brewing is a driving force,  if the cost of
homebrew was near the cost of store bought,  Home Brewing would no longer be
a consideration for 90% of us.   It is up to the brewshops, the distributors
and the manufacturers to keep Home Brewing as a viable hobby.   The more
desirable it is cost wise, the more new brewers we will attract.  For the
brew shops, get on line or die.   The limited market except in high
population areas demands that you increase volume.  The internet is the only
way to do that.   Sure, homebrewing is fun but I think I'll have a (cost
effective)  beer.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:38:43 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Poor Extraction

Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>

"I can't ever recall deciding that the commercially
produced malt produced a poor extraction because it was "old or stale."

That makes sense as the starch content is not going to change with
age. The enzyme level will change with age but it would have to drop
dramatically to effect the conversion rate with most modern base
malts.

"How much moisture can a grain have to effect extraction enough to
measure?

The obvious answer is any amount will effect extraction "measurement".
Since we determine the amount of malt by weighing it, the extraction
rate is inversely proportional to the amount of moisture.  A 1% change
in moisture will produce a 1% change in extraction determination.
Between humid summers and dry winters, the moisture content of grain can
change by as much as 20%.  This puts a severe limit on the ability
to even determine what extraction is on a casual basis.

I put measurement in quotes because moisture has no effect on the
real extraction rate, just our ability to measure it accurately.

"If you suspect a problem with your grain, there is a test that you can
perform.,....

Your experiment is fun and a good experience but it also happens to
be the way I determined that the crush has not much to do with
anything when making small batches.  It also ignores the moisture
content of the malt as a variable as described above.

It is "easy" to determine the moisture content of malt.  Weigh a
sample and then nuke it till it stops losing weight.  The difference
between bone dry weight and the original weight, divided by the
BD weight is the moisture content.

"Again, it has been my experiance that the larger portion of the poor
extraction problems comes from under milling.  Rapid or poor lautering
techniques are a distant second.

Not sure what "under milling" is but in my experiments, I found the
best extraction was with a Corona set to make flour.  It was in
fact, the only crush that was measurably different.

Funny how great minds can not agree on something so simple.

For some anecdoatl experience, I was never able to achieve extraction
above the mid 20's no matter what I did until I change to DC Belgin
malt.  It immediately went to the low 30's and has never changed in
5 years.

What does this say? It's in the malt folks.

Finally, a lecture again.  CONVERSION is the ability of the mashing
system, process and raw materials to convert starch into sugar.

EXTRACTION is the ability of the lautering system and process to 
get the sugar out of the mash. 

It is a common error to use the two  terms interchangeably.  
They are two different process and BOTH must be under control to 
maximize what we really mean.... YIELD.

js


- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:40:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Supporting Local HB Shops?  Do or Don't?

Hi all, 

In some ways I think that many of the local Chicago HB shops have
wriiten their own ticket as far as closing because of business
pratices and leaching the Homebrewer for every red cent they could
grab from them by jacking prices because of a "sellers market". 

Many of them seem like they could care less about your measley $50
purchase and will not go out of their way to get you items that may be
a little harder to come by than "in stock" items. 

I will not buy many things from the local shops because their prices
are so inflated (like 300%+ on kegging and tapping parts that you can
buy direct from companies like BANNER EQUIP.). So as a consumer I go
elsewhere for the better product service and price. 

Speaking of consumers... The consumer does not have to buy from any
local shop. If there is only one Home Brew shop in a 50 mile radius
and they are not that great why should I or anyone else have to buy
from them??? It is a "Free Market" and every consumer has a right to
buy wherever the hell they want to buy... Locally or on the web. 

Looking at the web sources for Home Brewing gear just seems like the
same as the local shops... There are good one and bad ones. Good deals
and bad deals. 

I personally am going to go to whoever gives me the best possible deal
on what I need. 

But for me there is a catch. 

I have a local Home Brew shop that I support in the Chicago area (I
won't plug it but it is on Rte. 83 and North Ave.) that I use often
and always give first shot on things I need. 

The owner knows that I buy a lot, that I spend money and that I will
come back. He goes out of his way to make sure I am happy with his
bulk prices and that I return for more spending. That is a good
business man and a good business practice. 

I refer as many people as I can to his store because he is a great guy
to deal with. He has the attitude that if I ask for it, he will do his
 best to get it to me on a timely basis and at a very competitive
price. Again, good business practice. He wants my business, he wants
me to come back. 

I would be very upset if he went out of business (I think he has been
there for 20 years now). All of us as brewers need to support our
local shops that support us. 

I think a Local Homebrew shop simply cannot be everything for this
brewer. I buy what I can from my local and outsource the rest from
other sources (you can not get a pound of hops from most local HB
shops for instance). My local guy understands that he can not give me
"Hoptech" prices on leaf hops. but he has stepped up his Leaf hops and
lowered some prices on them to make sure others keep buying. That is
what you are supposed to do as a HB shop owner. Be competitive and
watch the market and change to fit it as time goes by. 

I guess my point is; Give your local shop first shot at what you need
and if they can't get it or beat others prices then let them know.
Don't just stop using them. The insight you as a brewer and consumer
give them may just help them to give you a deal, sell some supplies
and stay in business. 

C'ya!

 -Scott "PLAID PLAID PLAID" Abene


===

ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:43:02 -0500
From: "Marc Sedam" <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: leaving the backdoor, but entering the maibock

Hi Pat:

Two clarifications:  (1)  I didn't intend to insinuate that the HBD was
suggesting people head out to their local brewery/pub to buy grain.  I was,
however, surprised at the number of people who seemed to think the practice
was just fine.  I've read many of the posts and find the Digest to be full
of reasoned and interesting discussions.  Where is the FAQ, anyway?  (2)
The assumption that was never elucidated on either side of the discussion
was that the "back door" buyers never asked the local shops to organize a
group buy.  We have never been approached by the clubs to do these bulk
orders--had we been asked we'd be more than happy to set up a special deal
and accommodate needs.  This is one area where better communication benefits
everyone--before the next trip to the brewery, ASK your local shop if you
can arrange bulk orders or pre-buy as Dan Listerman suggests (a wonderful
idea, by the way).

On the other hand, the shops (I know you're out there) can be more
pro-active in offering these services before it becomes an issue.  We do
offer more than just homebrewing supplies for sale (cigars and...high-end
audio), and that's a concept that will help others survive.  Lord knows I've
been in crappy shops--although I've never seen a $35 carboy!!!.  I was in a
shop in NJ that kept their leaf hops in cookie jars on the store shelf;
great for lambics but not much else.   That being said, if the shop is
competent and helped nurture your hobby you should help nurture the shop
too.  Touchy-feely, I know.  I've put more than my 2 cents in on the topic
and I'll cease now.

Now that that's done (from me at least), I'm looking for a good recipe for
maibock.  I can't find Richman's book anywhere, and I knew there was a
recipe in there.  I've got the basics down (OG- 1.065, low to moderate IBUs)
but I'm looking for any nuances to make it exceptional.  I'm doing a
no-sparge, dual beer session (one maibock, one German pilsener).  Any
suggestions or recipes that worked are appreciated.

Marc Sedam
UNC-Chapel Hill



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:43:57 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Lallemand Lag Times

All,

Has anyone used any of the Manchester dried yeast that was available
at the MCAB?  I used four packets of it in my last batch, and
fermentation did not begin for two days, so I added a couple of the
packets of the London yeast, and it started within a couple of hours. 
I have a suspicion that the Manchester yeast is not viable.  I did
rehydrate in 104 degree F water before pitching.

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:08:58 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: backdoor dealings 

>>>>> "sedam" == sedam  <sedam at bellsouth.net> writes:

    sedam> whining...it's real life business.  How do you think a
    sedam> restaurant would do if you could bring your own ingredients
    sedam> and just have them cook it?

Wrong analogy.  We're not bringing ingredients into your shop to brew
beer.

The right one is: How do you think a grocery store would do if a bunch
of consumers banded together and bought food directly from the
producers and wholesalers?

This happens all the time.  They're called "buying coops."  What the
consumer loses in the deal is convenience.  You have to actually plan
ahead.  

IF we had a local HB shop that would coordinate bulk buys for us, we
wouldn't have to do it ourselves.  But we don't.  The two local
"shops" are both sections within larger "beer and wine" stores.  Even
if the buyer for the homebrew section wanted to do it, his store
management won't go for it.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:48:53 -0500
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Homebrew Supply Market adnausia

I can't take it anymore.....all this whining about the alleged demise of
the local homebrew shops.  Homebrew shops are failing for two simple
reasons.

1.) Darwinism.
Everyone survives in the boom times, even poorly-run businesses.  True
successful businesses (actually businessmen) always find a way to
maintain and increase market share.  Others do not keep up with changing
conditions because they lack business acumen and are unable to do things
differently.  If you study history, you will find that free markets are
quite efficient and will effectively weed out the weak (for the better
in the long run).  No, there won't be a lack of supplies and no, prices
will not go up.

2.) Lack of industry organization.
The homebrew industry is in the infancy stage of the business life
cycle.  It has not yet developed real leadership, marketing, or
membership.  Mature industries have strong associations.  In my personal
industry (investment advising) we have a very strong organization for
dealers (National Association of Securities Dealers), however, it has
not made my business any less competitive.  The same rules of #1 apply
to us as well.  Many advisors have left my industry saying it's too
competitive and it's harder to make a living than it used to be.  I'm
sure almost everyone can say the same about their own
job/business/industry

If I had to assign a quantity to the two reasons, I would guess that 90%
of the problem can be attributed to #1 and only 10% to #2.  With that
being said, I feel confident that there will continue to be a good
homebrew store for me in Orlando, if only because they seem to be good
businessmen.

Don Lake, VP
Registered Principal
American Municipal Securities, Inc.
dlake at amuni.com



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:02:50 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Torrified Wheat: to crush or not?

I have heard that Torrified Wheat is good for head retention.  Should it
be crushed?  I have thought not, in that it has no shell/ husk.
 ...Darrell


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:41:24 -0800
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Lager Pitching Temp Compilation

HBDers,

A few weeks ago I asked some questions about chilling, pitching temps, and
lag times with lagers. I received many responses and here is a rundown of
what people said:
_______________________________
First question:
> Noonan suggests, "Where practical, it is advisable to separate the
> chilled wort from the cold break in a settling tank." p.170
>
> Q: How many of you find this "practical" and do it?

Some said they usually do rack off the break material and felt better about
pitching the yeast into "cleaner wort." Some said they always rack off trub
when  pitching directly on a yeast cake (from a previous beer).

Some said that it is a good idea but only makes a minor difference. Don't
sweat it...

One person mentioned that they ferment in a conical and have drawn off the
break material after settling but have gotten so little that the effect of
doing so seems small. He also mentioned that there may be some reasons to
let it sit on the break material during fermentation...
_______________________________________
My other questions had to do with chilling:

> Q: Do I pitch the yeast at 60F and then throw it in the fridge to drop the
> temp?  Or do I drop the temp in the fridge first and then pitch the
>yeast. (The
> danger here is obviously longer lag times - as we all know, one of the
> major causes of bad beer.)

All noted the need to pitch a huge amount of yeast (suggestions ran from a
0.5 gal up to a 2 gal starter!).
_________________
Pitch and Drop Camp:

Some felt that it was ok to pitch high (60F) and let drop in the fridge to
proper temps - feeling that the only time the yeast produce fusel/diacetyl
was during fermentation (which directly opposes what Noonan says...) That
it was only important to get it down low for the fermentation- that it was
not so important for the lag time.
__________________
Drop and Pitch Camp:

Some said they always drop the temp overnight and then pitch the yeast in
the morning. They make sure to be *very careful* with sanitization and have
had few problems with infected beers because of longer lag times. Some
thought that the longer lag times were not to be worried about, and if I
can quote one brewer: "It isn't the lag time that is the problem. The
problem is wort spoiling bacteria reproducing in your wort. Cold
temperatures will slow their reproductive rate to a level where they will
not (in my experience) harm the beer flavor."

Some thought it was very important to pitch the yeast at the proper
temperature and never pitch over 50F. The thought is that since this is
lager yeast, even a short time at warm temps might be detrimental to the
finished beer flavor. That the first hours of yeast growth are indeed very
critical.

People in this camp also worried about problems with a quick temp drop -
feeling that shocking the yeast with a drop of 10-15 degrees during a short
period of time is detrimental to their viability.

Along with this line of thinking is the necessity of keeping the starter(s)
at the proper temps as well.

There were a few that chill down to the pitching temp by recirculating ice
water through the chiller using a pump and a cold liquor tank. This method
shortens the lag times and gets you down into the proper temps to pitch the
yeast right away.

One person also suggested to put a stirrer in the kettle while chilling to
reduce chilling times.
_______________________

So, that is the gist of it. Thank you all for your suggestions!!!

Happy lagering!


 -Troy 




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:00:59 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re: Nottingham Lag Times/Proper use of Dry Yeast




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 03/18/99 05:00 PM

On the 500 gm bricks of Danstar/Lallemand's Windsor and Nottingham yeast
one can clearly read the brewpub/brewery recommendation of 60 grams per
barrel. This equates to roughly 10 grams per 5 gallons. A standard packet
is only 7 grams? Why? I don't know. But, if you are like Ken Swartz (whom
I'm sure only did that the one time ; ) and thousands of other homebrewers
and only pitch one packet on a 5 gal batch you are under pitching. This 10
gram figure has been confirmed not only by our own beloved Jethro Gump, but
also the very highly esteemed Lallemand yeast guru Clayton Cone, who spoke
at the MCAB. 70% of the ideal pitch rate is not horrible, we all know that
it will work, but when combined with A. not aerating, B. not
hydrating/temperating the yeast, and C. not having enough nutrition in the
wort you get long estery lag times.

The local brewpub uses 2 of these 500 gram bricks per 15 bbl batch which
figures to 66 grams per barrel. 110% of the suggested pitching rate.
Without any in-line aeration they get an active kickoff in 2-4 hours. The
variation seems mostly to be from 1. Which beer they are making 2. The
original gravity of the beer 3. The temperature of the fermentation.
Interestingly enough the do not "temperate" the yeast to the wort. The
simply sanitize the packages and scissors, open the manway, cut them open
and sprinkle the yeast over the first 2 bbls of wort in the fermentor.
They make pretty good beer. They also have temperature and pressure
controlled fermentors and a DME plate filter to filter the crap out the
beer before serving....

We can make up for our lack of equipment by Fixing the A. B. C.'s from
above.
A. Aerate the crap out of your wort. Shake--Rattle and Roll your carboys,
Drop from pail to pale, or Oxygenate with pure O2 for best results.

B. Hydrating/Temperating the yeast properly. Dry yeast need to be hydrated
properly before they can go to work. This is best done in warm water
without sugar. It is theorized that hydration in wort creates too high an
osmotic pressure on the cells causing some yeast cells to implode thus
reducing your pitching rate. In other words. The yeast is trying to intake
water and exclude the dissolved sugar into the cell through the cell
membrane all at once while it is in a weakened state. Occasionally a tree
gets stuck in the damn, the damn breaks and kills the cell.
I use a cup of water at 104F in a 2 qt pyrex measuring cup. I sprinkle on
the yeast and let this stand for 10-15 min with paper towel over the top of
the container. I then start lowering temperature of the rehydrated yeast by
slowly adding a half cup of chilled oxygenated wort to the yeast every few
minutes while I continue to clean up the brew session. This continues until
I have roughly equalled out the temps +/- 7F of the yeast and the wort.
Upon which time I pitch the yeast.

C. Proper nutrition in the wort. At the MCAB Clayton Cone talked about the
importance of other elements besides FAN that yeast need for proper
nutrition. To maximize the yeasts nutritional need Lallemand developed a
"Yeast Energizer" for use in the wine, mead and beer industries. This is
the same product that is sold by G.W. Kent in homebrew shops under the same
name. He recommends its use in fermenting beers, and mentioned that major
breweries like LaBatt and Guinness (qda, I don't have my notes with me) use
tons of this product a year.

I shamefully haven't brewed since I returned from the MCAB, and thus can't
report on its usefulness. I will take care of that this weekend with my 6
grain stout. My question about the new use for this product is when should
one use it? The obvious answer would be just add it to the chilled wort.
However I theorize that adding the yeast energizer after hydration ie.
during temperation might be more effective. After all you are adding the
same amount of energizer to the same number of yeast cells, only you are
reducing the size of the random pool for the yeast to randomly absorb the
energizer from. Anyone with knowledge otherwise? Would energizer at this
high a concentration for that short of time be problematic to the yeast?

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden - Prison City Brewers
In Jackson, MI 32 Miles East of Jeff R
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nauseam...




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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:05:55 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: homebrewing's future

	Pat asks for ideas to save homebrewing.  Here's my take on such
ideas.  Seems to me that homebrewing has a kind of crucial threshold:  the
point at which that intial faddish interest either takes root and becomes a
true interest or fades away to nothing.  This is the point the homebrew
supply business (and the craft brewing industry for that matter) has
reached.  Nearing the end of the start-up kit market (I'd be very interested
to hear from supply shop owners what percentage of last year's gross was
made up of such sales), homebrew supply shop owners are watching their
customer base dwindle to the small group of hobbyists who've graduated from
that kit their brothers-in-law or spouses bought them for Christmas a few
years back and those first few batches of horrifying swill made from the kit
supplies that came with it.  It's a resourceful group, and the suppliers
will have to respond to their desire for a wide variety of competitively
priced, high quality raw materials and tools.  It's a small group too, and,
just as in the craft brewing industry, a bunch of good supply shops will
bite the dust because there just won't be enough of us to support them all.
I'm guessing that the vast majority of posters to the HBD have crossed that
homebrewing threshold.  To help save homebrewing, we'll first have to accept
the fact that our numbers are going to get smaller and that the hobby will
become more arcane, not entirely unlike the model train hobbyists a recent
poster mentioned (how many shops in your area cater to model train
hobbyists?).  More importantly, we should help others cross that threshold
by inviting them to our clubs, by making the club endeavors more purposeful
and inclusive, by providing free demonstrations or classes, by encouraging
others to join a brew session or to check out the HBD, by inviting them to
our local homebrew competition, by helping them haul out that start-up kit
collecting dust in the basement (right next to the fly-tying kit, the fly
rod and the cigar humidor) and brew a decent batch of beer. I'm convinced it
will be a grassroots endeavor.  I'm also convinced such an endeavor is
already at the heart of homebrewing anyway.  I'm betting that almost every
one of us can name a couple of people who were crucial to our understanding
and enjoyment of homebrewing, who helped us cross that theoretical interest
threshold. Time to return the favor by helping another brewer along.

Mike
New Orleans, LA



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:46:18 PST
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Garetz ibu formula

Greetings brewers,
As a fun programming exercise I'm working on an IBU calculator using the 
three popular IBU estimation formulae (Tinseth, Garetz, and Rager), 
based on the excellent info in the Hop Faq: Norm Pyle's Hops FAQ 
http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html#units

Ok, so Tinseth and Rager are fairly straightforward.  I'm having trouble 
understanding Garetz, though, and I'd appreciate input from  anyone with 
insight into this formula.

The hop faq says (in part):
Garetz Method
CA = GF * HF * TFHF  = ((CF * Desired IBUs)/260) + 1
(... and then go on to use CA to calculate IBUs...)
Note: this process is iterative, since it contains a term (HF) based on 
your goal IBUs. You must guess at the final result, do the math, and 
rerun the process, each time adjusting the value downward. It takes a 
little practice, but can be done.
- --- end quote

Ok, so is the idea to seed the formula with a dummy IBU (as Desired 
IBUs), and then re-do it with the calculated IBUs substituted for the 
Desired IBUs several times?  How many times?  Should my algorithm test 
for something like (abs(desired IBUs - calculated IBUS) < 1) or similar 
to end the loop?Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this.

Regards, Drew
ps - I'd be happy to share my C++ code for a hop object including the
different IBU calcs for anyone who is interested.
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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:40:35 PST
From: "Don Glass" <deglass at hotmail.com>
Subject: Roots

I am completely new to homebrewing and I am looking for some 
information/advice:
Is it possible to brew in medicinal roots with beers?
If it would be possible:
1. at what point in the brewing process would you add such a thing, and 
in what form (powdered, crushed, etc.)?
2. what kinds of beers would be best to add them?

Any responses or suggestions would be welcomed.  As I said, I am 
completely new to homebrewing, so if I have asked an idiot question, you 
know why.

Thanks
deglass at hotmail.com

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:21:53 EST
From: BsmntBrewr at aol.com
Subject: Demise thread continued.

Upon the suggestion of a fellow HBD-ite I have submitted the following
thoughts, that I recently posted on the AOL boards related to the "Demise"
thread, for your consideration.

Brewers,

I have been following the "demise" thread with interest. Here in Roanoke, VA
we are just now experiencing the so called "wave."  Our only brew shop, now 3
years in operation, has doubled his square footage.  The shop will also be
carrying commercial examples of brews for general consumption in a couple of
months.  The owner only recently left his regular job to got full time at the
shop.  Roanoke is a medium sized pleasant place with over 1/4
million pop. (could be much more, that was a figure I heard years ago) in the
city and burb type areas.

I explained the demise discussion here on AOL to him and pumped him for info
without being to intrusive.  He related that the summer of 98 was better than
the Xmas season of 97.  He kept running out of equipment kits!  I would go in
the shop one day and see 20 true brew kits stacked up in the middle of the
shop to return a week later to see them gone with more on order.  He reports
that he has a steady stream of "newbies" flowing in as well as old
timer types that haven't brewed since the seventies.

Also this hb shop owner is a good guy.  Yesterday he could have sold an
equipment kit to a guy but suggested he read a little first and sold him a
book instead.  I liked that and that attitude will keep people coming back.

Further bucking the trend, we will hopefully have a brew pub built from ground
up in the near future.  Roanoke County's Attorney is a members of our club and
reported to us that the owners of a couple of other pubs in VA and GA have had
land rezoned for one.  Our first brew pub went under years ago.  Homebrewers
trying to run a restaurant with no experience,  their menu was weird and beer
erratic.

I know there is pessimism out there about the future of the HB industry but in
our local its hard to comprehend with the growth we are having, are there
other areas experiencing this growth?  

The solution, I think, is to be active in your clubs, and your clubs active in
your community.  Preach, Teach and Indoctrinate whenever and where ever you
can.  Well, at least talk it up to your friends when they are having one of
your brews.  

Doing what ever we can as individuals and clubs combined with operations like
Brewing Techniques (BT) and there new marketing efforts we can keep the supply
side of the industry thriving.  BT has also started, on a small scale, to
offer clubs some perks.  Could BT be an emerging force in the organization and
promotion of home brewing, where others have seemed to fail or stagnate? i.e.
AHA?  I don't know.

One last thought, the industry may change and shift and disappear in some
areas but home brewing will never go away.  You have 7000 some years of
history behind the craft for a reference. 

Opinions and thoughts anyone?

Brew On!
Bob Bratcher
Roanoke, VA
                Latitude 37.239885   Longitude -80.004174 
                (not even close to Renner)
                         Star City Brewers Guild
                         http://hbd.org/starcity
                                http://members.aol.com/bsmntbrewr


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:34:06 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: Oud Bruin Netherlands

Brewers,

John Varady (#2982) expresses my opinion about the Westvleteren beer. 
The question about Oud Bruin he mentioned was (I thought) about Dutch Oud
Bruin. This is not a Flanders Brown. Most of the big breweries in the
Netherlands brew an Oud Bruin. It's a bottom fermented low alcohol, dark
beer, which is often artificial sweetened. I will look for a recipe.

A few ## ago I asked if there are ideas about the possibility to clone a
(winning) recipe. And sharing info about recipies. Until now I got no
answer.

Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema



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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:08:57 -0500
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Steamy RIMS?

- ------------------------------

Kyle Druey  wrote on the Subject: Steam RIMS

Hi Kyle,

I'm always looking for better ways to operate my equipment, a home built keg
based RIMS.  Salvage pressure cookers are easy to come and are inexpensive.
Application might be a reasonable alternative to electric heating elements
which has inherent problems.  If you could resolve a few issues for me, I
might be in the market to change my system.

How you control the temperature of the mash in the immediate area of the
steam inlet.  At first consideration of your described process, there would
be a large volume of the mash exposed to brief but very high temperatures.
Temperatures possibly high enough to destroy the enzymes within seconds?

With the RIMS water heater exchanger, the IO temperature difference is near
2 degrees, although it's been quite a while since I made a determination.

What are your measured the temperatures in the mash at different distances
from the steam inlet?

With motorized stirring and electric heat RIMS circulation, there's a
variation of temperature throughout the mash of 2 degrees.

Do you use rapid speed motorized mixing; or, is the nozzle moved rapidly
through the mash?

With other heat systems, direct flame, HERMS, and electric heating elements
(RIMS), the effort is to reach a mash temperature as quickly as possible
without overshooting the set temperature.  Thus preserving the enzymes to do
their work.






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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:04:05 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Chiller Pumps.

Dear Alan,
	I haven't checked the serial number, but I think I bought the same 
pump from the same place.  My setup begins with a slotted ring made 
of 1/2" copper tubing around the bottom of the kettle.  A compression 
T from the ring feeds 1/2" tubing through another set of fittings in the kettle 
wall to a ball valve. More 1/2" tubing runs from the valve to the 
pump which is mounted on a little cart which also holds the chiller.  
I put a "T" on the output of the pump with valves on the other two ends 
of the "T" one valve goes into the chiller and the other is used to 
prime the pump
	The reason you need to put the pump first is that it is not self 
priming, further these pumps need to be gravity fed, and MAY not work 
as well if you try to get them to suck up over the side of the 
kettle.  The way I prime the pump is to close the valve to the 
chiller and open the valve on the stem of the "T" until wort starts 
to flow out. I then close this valve, turn on the pump and then open 
the other valve.  I really don't think you will get away with trying 
to use the pump on the output of the chiller for this reason.
	With the pump you will be able to get more turbulent flow and 
the rate of heat transfer will go up.  Obviously you will need to 
run your chiller water faster too.  The problem you may experience is 
that now your beer is spending less time in the chiller and even 
though heat is leaving the beer faster the dramatically reduced time 
you will get with the pump will result in the beer coming out warmer. 
There are three ways around this problem. 1) run the coolant water 
even faster  2) run the pump slower 3) get a longer chiller. 
						Good Luck
						Simon



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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:02:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Franklin <tommfranklin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Isolate of Yeast

Hi All,

A scientist friend of mine has given me a Petri dish with an isolate
of lager brewing yeast.  (No other specifics were given.)

While I'm not set up for Lagering, I wouldn't mind making an
experimental 3 gallon batch of Steam/Common with it.  

My only question is:  How do I transform what's on the Petri dish into
something I can use in my Homebrew?

Responses from those with either theoretical knowledge or practical
experience are welcome!

tom





==
Tom Franklin
Raleigh, NC

http://www.imagineradio.com/mymusiclisten.asp?name=tomfranklin


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:05:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Nottingham and sediment on sides of bottles

Greetings
I finally tried Nottingham in a two pale ales.  I used Wyeast 1056 in
the same recipe about 3 months ago.  The latest batches were
replicates with the exception of one using only a primary and the
other including a transfer to a secondary.  The experiment is still
going (bottle conditioning) so I'll report later my observations. 
Lately Rob Moline, Ken Schwartz, and others, have talked about
Nottingham.  I'll pose a question.  After about a week in the bottle,
both of the above batches were less hazy - settled - but seemed like
there were larger clumps settled on one side of most bottles all the
way up to the neck.  If I swirl slightly these clumps move and then
finally fall to the bottom of the bottle.  So I did this to all
bottles and now all look 'normal.'  Anyone noticed this type of
behavior - yeast sticking to the side of the bottle?  I did not notice
this with the 1056 batch.  And these recent batches taste fine, too -
not infected....  Has anyone else seen this (another entry in the
'Yeast Life History Library')?
Thanks,
Matt Comstock in Cincinnati. 

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999  9:16 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Response to pump question

     Hi all,
     
     Alan McKay asks whether or not it is OK to connect 3/8" pipe to a 
     1/2" pump inlet.  He has been told this is a bad thing to do.
     
     The information he received is correct, it is a bad thing to do.  
     The pump can be starved and the risk of cavitation will be 
     greater (because of the increased vacuum in the pump head).  
     Cavitation makes short work of impellers, and the lack of liquid 
     around the entire pump shaft will greatly increase wear (there is 
     no lubricant in a magnetically coupled pump other than the liquid 
     you are pumping).
     
     For those of you that are wondering what cavitation is, it is the 
     state where the liquid in the pump is boiling because the 
     pressure in the pump has dropped below the vapor pressure of the 
     liquid.  This causes major erosion of the impeller (at Siebel 
     they make a point of showing the students an impeller that has 
     been eaten away by cavitation).
     
     I'm sure you'll hear from people that say they have been running 
     their pump like this for ages, and you may get away with it 
     because of the relatively light usage the pump will get.  It's 
     technically incorrect, though, and you risk damaging the impeller 
     and the pump head.
     
     Pushing the wort through the chiller is a good option.  Even if 
     the chiller pipe diameter matched the pump's, I would rather push 
     the wort through the chiller than pull it.  The chiller presents 
     a lot of resistance to flow, and you could starve the pump if you 
     run the pump faster than the liquid can run through the chiller.  
     Pushing it through the chiller negates this concern.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:22:38 -0500
From: "Marc Sedam" <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: autoclaving bottles

Tom:

The only problem with leaving the labels on is that they're near impossible
to get off after one autoclave cycle.  As long as the bottles are clean on
the inside, cover the tops with a small piece of aluminum foil and you're
all set.  Easiest sanitation there is.

Cheers!
Marc

Marc Sedam
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill



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---