---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  O2 caps (BrewInfo)
  Who Is Dr. Pivo? ("Poirier, Bob")
  Ca phosphate (or whatever) (Spencer W Thomas)
  honey flavor (Lostboy676)
  SureScreen(tm) (BrewInfo)
  TA titration (John Wilkinson)
  bb99 report ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Re: fwh formula? (Jeff Renner)
  Dave Humes Assumes ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  infamous Al K, ("Keith Menefy")
  Lighten Up!! ---You may have heard these but...... ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Regarding Champagne Bottles' Cap-ability ("Mark Nelson")
  epsom salts for hop plants? ("Sieben, Richard")
  Re: A newbie bottler question (Jeffry D Luck)
  Hop Bags - What's to Lose ? (woodsj)
  Phils Phlier (Dan Listermann)
  Re: A newbie bottler question? (Jeff Renner)
  Re:autoclave-resistant organism? (Jack Schmidling)
  Oat Malt Question (darrell.leavitt)
  Behold, the power of hops... (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Decoction Profiles (mark)
  Re: attaching labels to bottles ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  RE: Sinology and Sodomy (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Keggerator; was beer tower ("Daske, Felix")
  RIMS sparge recirc, magnesium hops , Dr. Peevo, outatown (Dave Burley)
  Trub (ernest baker)
  Great Taste of the Midwest - Ticket Inquiry ("Humphrey,Patrick")
  Re: Re: honey beer (mark)
  Widget Free Guinness Head (Eric.Fouch)
  Polish Language (VQuante)
  veteran of the pivo wars ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Potassium Sorbate in beers??? ("Philip J Wilcox")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:18:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: O2 caps

Rob writes:
>I keep reading on how do you clean the special O2 caps. I'm wondering if
>anyone has asked a micro or a major on how they clean theirs.  I have asked
>and this 1 (one) micro said that they didn't. They dump them right out of
>the freshly opened box and cap them without cleaning any of them. That was
>almost 2 years ago and I haven't cleaned any of my caps since.  I haven't
>had any problems since. I'm knocking on wood as I'm typing. I won't say what
>micro it was but it is one of the largest in the Midwest area. They have
>constantly had good beer. So I think that as long as you don't allow them to
>get dirty you should be ok. I am sure now the purists will really object to
>this but ask yourselves have you tried it?

A micro that I talked to about this years ago also did not sanitise their
caps.  They have since gone out of business (Chicago Brewing Company) or,
more accurately, their recipes and beer names and equipment were bought
up by various other breweries, but their beer suffered from oxidation
rather than sanitation problems.

Nonetheless, there is a distinct difference between the caps we get and
the caps micros get: ours are repackaged.  Someone has to scoop out and
count or weigh the caps and repackage them.  Is that the same scoop they
use for malt?  Any grain dust fall into the open box of caps?  Any
thumbprints on the cap liners?

Can you make sterile beer in the kitchen/basement/backyard?  Almost
impossible.

Can you make beer that is only slightly infected (as we all do) but not
so much as to cause off flavours/aromas and bottle it with unsanitised
caps?  Absolutely.

Are you *more* likely to keep your infections below taste/smell threshold
if you sanitise your caps?  Probably.

Sanitation, fresh ingredients and minimising oxygen pickup (except for
in cooled wort at pitching time) are the most important factors in
making great beer.  You can skimp in any of these three areas and still
make world-class beer.  Then again, the less you skimp, the more
*likely* you are to make world-class beer.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:41:13 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Who Is Dr. Pivo?

Greetings!!

Dave Burley doesn't trust what Dr. Pivo says, because the good Doc 
won't come clean and give us his true identity.  Ahhhh, but he HAS 
exposed himself to us several times in the past!  :^)  

For instance, just  about a year ago, in HBD #2722, in discussing 
the need for airlocks, he asked us to visit his home page at 
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/columns/jirvine/watertrap.html.

If you really care and need to know, go there and find out for yourself!!

Brew On & Prosit!!

Bob P.
East Haven, CT
bob_poirier at adc.com
Home of the B.I.G. (Beer Is Good!) Homebrew Club

Life on Earth is expensive, but it
comes with a free trip 'round the sun!!


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:20:03 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Ca phosphate (or whatever)

Ok, so now we have lots of blathering about why Calcium can't possibly
be combining with Phosphate and precipitating in a mash.

I'd like the skeptics to then explain what *IS* happening.  Why does
adding a calcium salt (carbonate or chloride) to the mash drop the pH?
Why do all the brewing texts that I've ever seen claim that calcium
phosphate precipitation is the mechanism?  Are they all wrong?

I don't really care what the pK is, and at what pH hydroxyapatites
form.  I care what is happening in my mash.  And it is clear to me
that adding gypsum or calcium cloride *drops* the pH of the mash.  So
don't tell me why it can't happen.

Reminds me of the old "bumblebees can't fly" legend.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

"I've got a Master's degree .... in Science!" - DBMT


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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:11:47 EDT
From: Lostboy676 at aol.com
Subject: honey flavor


> Someone recently asked about getting more honey flavor from their beer. I 
> was wondering, couldn't you just add some pasteurized honey at kegging time 
and 
> force carbonate? I'm just curious.
> Dave
 Sorry, what I meant was, couldn't you add the honey after fermantion and 
pasteurize the whole thing, so the honey doesn't ferment, and then force 
carbonate.
 Dave


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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:27:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: SureScreen(tm)

Jeff writes:
>Started my boil, added my hops (whole leaf and quite heavily as this
>is to be an APA), no boil over but a good rolling boil. Used my wort chiller
>for the first time and within 15 to 20 minutes I as was at 80 degrees. Again
>carefully hoisted the pot to high enough point to fill the carboys.
>Confidently place the fill tube from the pot into the carboy opened the
>valve and a strong flow began. Problem is that lasted about 5 seconds and
>then nothing. With all of the hops and I assume break material the
>SureScreen was clogged. In the past I've tried a stainless steel scrubby
>around the screen and this helps but it still gets clogged. I've tried
>whirlpooling but maybe I don't know how to do this either. My last resort is
>the old "hairy arm" technique to keep the screen from clogging. Any help or
>suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I'm getting tired of naming my
>brews the "Hairy Arm Pale Ale".

I have a similar setup and I've been pretty baffled by this kind of
behaviour also.  I've got photos of my setup on my website.  I brewed
at least two dozen batches on this system with absolutely no problems.
Suddenly, on the last two batches I've gotten serious cloggage when
running the wort out of the kettle.  Temporarily, I fixed the problem
by getting a long (30-inch?) stainless steel spoon and scraping the
screens.  An hour later, I had gotten 95% of the wort out, pitched
and went to bed.

Note that I've never, ever had any slow runoff problems from the mash
tun, which also has three similar screens.  Even on these batches with
clogged kettle screens, I had crystal-clear, smooth runoff from the
mash tun.

After the first time I had this problem, I suspected protein buildup on
the screens (since I had at least two dozen batches with no problems)
so I soaked the screens in hot PBW overnight.  The next batch had the
same problem.

Another reason I think it's not buildup on the screens because I used
both the mashtun and kettle as both mashtun and kettle on the last
batch (i.e. both were used as mashtuns and then both were used as
kettles)... the runnings from the "mashtuns" were smooth as silk,
whereas both "kettles" had cloggage.  My real mashtun has only been
used as a kettle once or twice before, hence, I don't think it's
buildup.

I have not had the time to brew again since then, so I could not test
my latest theory: brittle whole hops.

You see, when I was about to sell my HB supply store, I bought a lot
of extra hops and malt.  I stored the malt in HDPE gasketted buckets
and the hops in CO2-purged, 1-gallon, oxygen-barrier, heat-sealed
bags.  The hops have, however, been getting dryer and more brittle
as they age (oxygen, but not mosture-barrier?).  This is the only
difference between two batches that were essentially the same
(except for the clogging and the age of the hops (and malt, I guess)).

Were the hops you used rather brittle, or were they very soft and
springy?  I really would like to figure out what is at the root of
this problem not only for my own and Jeff's sake, but also for other
users of screens like this in their kettles.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:26:33 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: TA titration

I have read somewhere, possibly here, the pH number at which the tell tale color
change takes place when titrating to find total acidity but can't find that
number now.

Does anyone know the number?  It seems it would be easier when testing dark
musts (like red wine) and possibly more accurate even for lighter musts like
traditional mead or cider.

Am I hopelessly confused or would it be a good idea, assuming I have a pH meter,
which I do, to determine the balance point in a TA titration using the pH meter
rather than depending on the color change?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:17:43 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: bb99 report

Hi all,

since I've been absent lately I'd like to invite you for a visit to
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/bb99.htm
 ...my Big Brew 99 report from Austria.

CHEERS &
sehr zum Wohle!

Hubert

CEO, Association of Salzburg Underground Breweries




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:11:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: fwh formula?

From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net> asks

>does a formula exist that figures ibu of first wort hopping technique?

Strictly speaking, fw hops are boiled the full boil, and contribute as
many IBU as they would if they were added at the beginning of the boil.
However, the bitterness is of a different nature and according to the
original articles quoted by George Fix in his first report to HBD, the
German taste panels overwhelmingly preferred the FWH beers.  Even though
the FWH beers had a higher IBU than the standard beers, they were not
perceived as such.  See Dave Draper's FWH summary at
http://hbd.org/ddraper/beer/1stwort.html.  Here is a quote from it:

"6. Final comments: each brewery needs to experiment with its own setup for
determining what sort of first-wort hopping is best for it. But the
alpha-acid quantity should *not* be reduced, even if one gets more
bitterness than one would get in the usual way. The tasting panel results
seem to indicate that the bitterness in the FWH beers was fine, and
mild--i.e. there is little harshness that can appear in a highly bittered
beer. If the hops are reduced to compensate for the extra IBUs one gets
from the first-wort hops, then the whole benefit of doing it might be lost.
The recommendation is to use at least 30% of the total hops as first- wort
hops--basically, this means adding the aroma hops as first-wort hops rather
than late kettle additions."

I love FWH for my CAP and other pale lagers, and have used it in some pale
ales as well.  In one case I used 100% of the hops (Columbus) as FWH in an
APA and loved it.  I also recently tasted a Helles-type lager (brewed by a
frequent HBD poster) that was 100% FWH.  It didn't stand out as peculiar,
just very nice.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:45:05 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Dave Humes Assumes

     This is a rather difficult post as I am responding to someone who
despite my invitation to do so refuses to let anyone else in the HBD see
what he likes to write! His preference is to send very nasty private emails.
The source of Dave's bitterness was my Cat Swinging post.
      Now Dave, why don't you take the opportunity to hop up here on the
dais and have your two bobs worth. Everyone else does! Let me get you
started. Bring along that piece of paper you're holding with your comments
on it.
   "The very thought that you would
remove a cat's tail for something as insignificant as your beer is
unthinkable"
   "The fact that you decided to advertise your stupidity
and inhumane treatment of an innocent animal in this forum goes only
to show that you are nothing more than a heartless moron."
   "Lets think, if a
cat could get in your brewery, then maybe also mice, rats,
cockroaches, snakes, and who knows what else could get in also.  For
crying out loud, are you open fermenting in the carport?"
       Now Dave, really, sit down and loosen that tie! You are surely not
going to tell me you really believed the whole thing happened? Am I that
convincing? Dave it was something that came to me as an aside whilst
responding to the uric acid matter. The cat in question, i.e. the
neighbour's cat is at this moment curled up on my lap. Doesn't look like
he's ever had a swing in his life!
       I'll skip the lecture you gave me on how to look after domestic
animals. What other kind thoughts did you offer?
     " The animal was simply performing a
natural function undeserving of your inhumane treatment.  Some people
like cats and others don't.  That's OK.  Just keep it to yourself.
What you wrote to the HBD is not funny and this kind of talk only
encourages others with similarly underdeveloped value systems to do
more of the same".
     "The purpose of the HBD is not to serve as
a forum for personal diatribes having nothing to do with making beer"
      Well Dave, that's fair enough comment I guess. But since when did you
become the self appointed Chairman of the HBD, did I miss something
somewhere? I have criticised postings myself but I did it in this forum
where others could see what I had to say, and criticise if they felt it
necessary, and they did!
     My idea was to add something a little light, sort of a coffee break
between the long chains of chemical compounds that sometimes run on and on
and on!
     If you don't like what I write that's fine. But criticise me here in
front of everyone! That way if someone doesn't agree with you they might
like to tell you so.
     Then you might have something else to think about. Now wouldn't that be
a little fairer?




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:06:47 +1200
From: "Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz>
Subject: infamous Al K, 

G,Day
In Homebrew Digest #3024 (May 07, 1999) Matt Brooks said

>I believe it started with the infamous Al K, and Dave B.  talking about pH
drop.....

Why infamous, Matt?
In my opinion, I would term there posts as informative at the very least.

Cheers Keith

infamous.......having a bad reputation; notorious......... Collins English
Dictionary





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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:34:21 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Lighten Up!! ---You may have heard these but......

<< The Best Drunk Quotes...Ever

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning,
that's as good as they're going to feel all day.
 * Frank Sinatra

The problem with some people is that when they aren't drunk, they're sober.
 * William Butler Yeats

An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his
fools.
 * Ernest Hemingway

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you tokeep
your mouth shut.
 * Ernest Hemingway

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
 * Dean Martin


Drunk is feeling sophisticated when you can't say it.
 * Anonymous

No animal ever invented anything as bad as drunkenness - or as good as
drink.
 * G.K. Chesterton

Time is never wasted when you're wasted all the time.
 * Catherine Zandonella

Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of  denying himself a
pleasure.
 * Ambrose Bierce

Reality is an illusion that occurs due to lack of alcohol.
 * Anonymous

I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast. A woman drove me
to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.  What
contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch?
 * W.C. Fields

Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder.
 * Anonymous

If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.
 * David Daye

Work is the curse of the drinking classes.
 * Oscar Wilde

When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.
* Henny Youngman

Life is a waste of time, time is a waste of life, so get wasted all of the
time and have the time of your life.
* Anonymous

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.
* Tom Waits

24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?
 * Stephen Wright

When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep.  When we
fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we  go to heaven
Sooooo, let's all get drunk, and go to heaven...
 * Brian O'Rourke

You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline -it helps
if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear  weapons, but at
the very least you need a beer.
 * Frank Zappa

Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has
taken out of me.
 * Winston Churchill

 He was a wise man who invented beer.
 * Plato

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
 * Benjamin Franklin

If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes
beer shoot out your nose.
 * Deep Thought, Jack Handy

Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer.
 Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention,  but the wheel
does not go nearly as well with pizza.
 * Dave Barry

The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind.
* Humphrey Bogart

Why is American beer served cold? So you can tell it from urine.
 * David Moulton

Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world.
 * Kaiser Wilhelm

I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
 * Homer Simpson

Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen  and oxygen,
for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
* Dave Barry

I drink to make other people interesting.
* George Jean Nathan

All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't like me so let's just do
this and I'll get back to killing you with beer.
* Homer Simpson



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:49:45 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Regarding Champagne Bottles' Cap-ability

Zemo, then Dave Burley, discussed cap-ability of American champagne bottles.

What I've found is that American "methode champenoise" style wines (where
they do a secondary fermentation in the bottle which is capped, before
uncapping and disgorging the yeast, then corking/wiring) will take a
standard beer bottle cap.  Wines that are not fermented in the bottle, but
in tanks before bottling, sometimes/usually don't have cap-able tops.

Mark Nelson
Atlanta GA



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 07:59:34 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: epsom salts for hop plants?

Paul Shick asked about using epsom salts to cure a magnesium deficiency that
was causing hop leaves to yellow.

I would recommend that you go to the hardware store and get a good soil test
kit.  I had the same problem with my Mt. Hood hops last year (interestingly
none of the other 9 varieties in the same plot of ground had the problem).
I don't recall the name brand of the test kit, but it had 4 test containers
and different chemicals in capsule form so it is all premeasured for you.
What I found was a potash deficiency and I applied a pound of it in 3
seperate instances over the growing season, between all 10 of my plants.  No
more yellow leaves.  (BTW the Mt. Hood has been the fastest growing plant
this year, it reached over 8 feet as of yesterday, Tettnangers are only a
few inches behind.)

Rich Sieben

Brewing IS grain surgery!


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Date: 12 May 1999 06:12:09 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Re: A newbie bottler question

Brett asks about a good adhesive for his bottle labels.

I'm sure this will receive a mixed reaction, I use milk.  Yep, 
good 'ol 2%.  

I have a sponge for just this purpose, so I set it in a shallow
bowl and pour a half cup of milk in.  Then I take a label and
set it on the sponge face up, tap it down so the back is well 
dunked and apply it to the beer bottle.  Sometimes you 
have to 'encourage' the corners to lay flat, but that's it.

To remove, soak the bottle for about 30 seconds and the
label lifts off.  I do lose about 2 labels per case because it's
not a perfect adhesive, but it's no biggie for me.  They 
usually fall off as the milk dries or they're on for good.

I've done this with labels printed on a color laser and an
HP inkjet. with no problem

Hope this helps.  ...But I am curious about the other responses
you get.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT (definately NOT legal)
(3 states and a mountain range away from the center
of the universe.)



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:28:24 -0400
From: woodsj at us.ibm.com
Subject: Hop Bags - What's to Lose ?



Is there any thoughts on using hop bags in the boil ?  I find straining
from the kettle a real PITA.  Last few brew I used hop bags and made
it much easier.  Is there any evidence that using hop bags loses a lot
of the hop utilization ?  I understand there is less hop contact with the
boiling wort, but is it significant ?  Should you compensate and add a
little hops and continue with the bags ?  I usually use hop pellets but
can use either type if it makes a difference.

Please, no complex intellectual university-type formulas.  Just some real
practical advice.  Thanks in advance.

Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:38:49 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phils Phlier

Bob Sheck ( bsheck at skantech.net ) writes:

<I'm rather surprised that Jack Schmidling or Dan Listerman haven't got 
an
Easy-Keg-Krane or Phil's Keg Phlier or similar device.>

How did you hear of this???  


The concept was to utilize waste heat from the boil and a really, really
big bag to elevate the keg.  The current holdups are that, save for the
Vehicle Assembly Building  at the Kennedy Space Center, indoor operation 
is
difficult and the FAA paper work.

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com              
72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:42:28 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: A newbie bottler question?

"Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com> asks

>What adhesive and application technique do you seasoned brewer /
>bottlers recommend for my labeling?

Milk.  Comes off easily (a fault if you're putting your bottles in an ice
bucket to chill, but that makes beers too cold anyway).  Cheap, always
available.  I put a bit on the counter and smear the back of the label
across the milk, then apply it and smooth it with a damp sponge.  Looks
very professional.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 07:03:55 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re:autoclave-resistant organism?

"Is there such a thing as an autoclave-resistant organism??

You bet.  It's called Clintococcus willaimensis

I believe the strain known as Hillary is also.

js

- -- 
     Visit our web site:  http://user.mc.net/arf
  ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK:  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:00:32 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Oat Malt Question

A question regarding Oat Malt (for Jeff and/or others who have used this):

I just picked up a bag of malted oats.  How much of a 10-12 lb grain bill
would one put in...2 lbs?
,..Darrell


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:12:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Behold, the power of hops...


I must say I'm damn impressed with the growth of my hops. Started them last
year late in the spring and they did OK but this year they are going hog wild!
My Liberty and Mt Hood plants are already to the tops of their 10 foot
trellis. What do I do now? It's still very early in the growing season, can I
string up some twine and train them back  /down/ ?? 

Just out of curiosity I marked where the tops of the bines were, then  checked
them 24 hours later and they'd grown 2 1/2 inches!! What fun.

 -Alan



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:06:24 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Decoction Profiles

mark at awfulquiet.com (please use this e-mail address for replies)

Lee,

>A decoction is beneficial in a wheat beer by breaking down proteins and
gums
>and allowing for better lautering it reduces the chances of a stuck
sparge.

It also adds a "decocted" grain flavour to the beer. Something that I
have never
experienced with an infusion mash.

>Why do you take 10 minutes  to add the decotion.  Dump about 2/3 of it
in
>the main mash and stir.  let temp stabilize and add more to hit desired

>temp.   No need to wait 10 minutes.

I have a brewhouse report from the Stroh's brewery in Winston-Salem, NC.
They
take 10 minutes in the transfer so as not to destroy any enzymes by
dumping a lot
of hot, boiling mash in all at one time. I have also read in Kunze that
the addition of
the decocted mash should be done slowly to avoid damaging the enzymes.
So I
figure between 5 and 10 minutes. This is what I have read in Kunze and
Noonan.

(Kunze International Edition "Technology Brewing and Malting". Page 217)

>Also as soon as the main mash temp has stabilized I pull the 2nd
decoction.
>Save some time any starch will convert during the gentle heating.

The decoction profiles that I have studied have said that you should let
the mash sit
for a while after adding the first decoction. Here is how Kunze
describes an
"abridged two mash process":

"The mashing-in temperature is 62 C (143 F) and the process lasts only
two hours -
which gives rise to the name of the process, which can also be performed
as a single
mash process. The process requires well and uniformly modified malt.

The mashing in-temperature of 62 C (143 F) is above the optimum
temperature for
protein breakdown although a good foam can be obtained. However, there
is no
B-glucan breakdown at all and so very well modified malt is essential
for this
method"
(Kunze International Edition "Technology Brewing and Malting". Pages
217, 218)

They don't describe it in the text, but the illustration shows:

     Mash in at 62 C (143 F), let rest for 30 minutes.

     Pull 1st decoction, raise to 71 C in 5  minutes, let decoction rest
for 15 minutes.
     Then raise decoction in 10 minutes to boiling, let boil for 5
minutes.

     Add 1st decoction to mash over 5 minutes, raising mash-tun temp to
72 C,
     let rest for 30 minutes  at  72 C.

     2nd decoction: Pull mash, raise to boiling in 5 minutes, let boil 5
minutes.

     Return decocted grains to main mash over 5 minutes.

     This raises mash to around 77 C to 78 C (mash out temp)"


Kunze calls for a 30 minute rest after adding the 1st decoction. So, we
have
different styles of decocting. But both work. You will please pardon me,
but
I am more of a "traditional brewer", meaning that when I brew a beer, I
try
and get the ingredients and the process that come from the beer's
country
of origin (Munich malt from Germany etc etc). I think it gives a more
authentic
beer, not just that I can say that it was brewed with German malt or "in
the
German Way", I think that in the end, the origin of the malt and the
process of
brewing has a lot to do with the authenticity of the flavour. But that's
just my
opinion.

I will try your method of decocting once my brewing system arrives here
in France.
If it works for me I'll use it on my Lagers. Would you please send me
your
decoction profile?

>DWC is a Belgian Malt from DeWolfe & Coysns (spelling may be incorrect)

I've heard good and not so good stuff about DeWolf. That is not to say
that
they do not make excellent malt (I like / use there Pilsner Malt,
great grain flavour!)

Thanks, (and thanks in advance for the decoction profile)

Prost!

Mark
mark at awfulquiet.com (please use this e-mail address)



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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:02:13 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: Re: attaching labels to bottles

G'day Brett, use good old nectar of moo - 
"milk" - to attach your labels, just make 
sure you use milk and not creamer! tdh




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:46:19 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Sinology and Sodomy

>>>>>>
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
 ....I may not be the most talented English speaker, but I do know that "we"
is a "collective" or "plural" pronoun, and requires it to be more than
"one" before being used.....
<<<<<<

Two possible quirks may be the exception:
	* The pregnant woman.
	* The man with a tapeworm
:>))

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:27:08 -0700
From: "Daske, Felix" <DaskeF at bcrail.com>
Subject: Keggerator; was beer tower

About 2 weeks ago I had posted a 'cheesy' ASCII
diagram of my bar, and a request information
regarding the installation of a beer tower (tap).
The feed lines for the tap were to run 8', from the 
[ok, let's call it a ... ] basement, through the
floor, to the bar.

I would like to thank the members of the HBD for 
taking the time to respond to my questions.  For 
those that are interested, I have included some 
of the comments at the end of this note.

Based on these responses, and some net surfing I
have done, I am rethinking my original plan.

Would those of you who have built a keggerator be 
so kind as to provide some guidance?  If you know
of some 'web handles' which would help just 
include them, instead of repeating things here.
Some points that come to mind are...

o What brand of towers?  
o Where purchased?
o Design and method.

kind regards, Felix
Fallen Rock Home Brewery
"beer from the earth"
- ---------------------------------
At the risk of boring the beejeebees out of all
of you I will paraphrase some of the responses.

Several people were kind enough to offer some 
suggestions - Al Korzonas of Lockport, IL began by 
saying that the 8' rise should not pose a problem
and that I can easily compensate for excessive
foam [on my pours] by varying the diameter of the 
supply hose.  Al went on to say that I may want
to consider running the supply hose through a cooling
jacket, to keep the beer in the line cool.  In 
closing, Al warned that keeping the tap clean may
be a challenge.

John Wilkinson of Grapevine, Texas suggested that 
the amount of beer in the line was negligible 
(~ 3 oz.) and cooling should not be a problem.

In response to Al's warning concerning mold 
growth on the tap, Curt Abert, of Champaign, IL, 
suggested that keeping the tap at ambient room 
temperature all but eliminated his mold problem.

- ------- // end // -------


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:28:33 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: RIMS sparge recirc, magnesium hops , Dr. Peevo, outatown

Brewsters:

Sandy asks about using the RIMS sparge water
kettle as a recepticle for the sparged solution and
recirculating this until sparging is finished.

An important part of this "on the fly" sparging is the
idea of plug flow.  Fresh water at the top of the
column pushes out the wort, leaving a much
lower concentration of sugar in the following water.
This is the most efficient method of extraction in
which wort in the grains flows into essentially
pure water  Otherwise, you would be losing
valuable sugar contained in the grains ( think
of them like tiny sponges) at the same
concentration or higher than the recirculated
wort at the end of your recirculation sparge.
- ------------------------------------
Paul Schick asks about using magnesium
because he saw some yellowing on his hop
bines at summer's end.  Several things can
cause this.  If it was at the bottom, likely your
bines needed some nitrogen, since hops borrow
nitrogen from the bottom and carry it to new
growth. Use slow acting nitrogen, however, as
you may get bine growth ( vegetative) instead
of cones. If it was all over, but more devastating
at the bottom  it may have been a verticillium wilt
or fusarium wilt -  just like your tomato plants.

I suggest you get a soil sample and tell the
county extension specialist what you want to
grow.  Both magnesium and boron should be
checked. Boron may need replacing year to year.
- -----------------------------------
"Dr. Pivo" - Penis Jokes?? is that the best you
can do? Makes me wonder why you use a
false name and talk about going behind the barn.
- -----------------------------------
I'll be outatown for a couple of weeks or so and I will 

answer any e-mail and HBD comments when I return.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley  


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:02:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: erniebaker at webtv.net (ernest baker)
Subject: Trub

Afraid I need help in this area: Trub
  1.  When is the correct time to whirlpool
        the wort in the brewpot, when it is 
         hot or cool?
   2.  When I rack from brewpot to primary
         I go through a 8-9 inch strainer, this
         captures a lot of hops.
    3 My primary is a Wiliams Siphonless 
       fermenter, I end up with plenty of trub
       and yeast sediment on the bottom 
       so that when I turn the valve on, I
        get a lo of sediment into the       
          secondary. How do I over come
         this?
      4. I read that I could rack to a bucket,
          let it settle, rack it off the trub to the
          primary and than pitch the yeast. Is
          this the answer?? 
       5. I don't use a chiller, I use ice and can cool it down to
pitching temp in 20 to 30 minutes. We're talking 3 gallons of hot wort.
Any ideas out there??  

Ernie Baker
29 Palms, CA



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:15:31 -0500
From: "Humphrey,Patrick" <patrick.humphrey at abbott.com>
Subject: Great Taste of the Midwest - Ticket Inquiry

Thought I would pass this along to the digest regarding tickets for 
this
year's
Great Taste of the Midwest in Madison...



On Fri, 7 May 1999 10:38:28 -0500 "Humphrey,Patrick"  writes:

>Hi,
>
>I was wondering when the tickets for this year's Great Taste of the
>Midwest would go on sale.  I haven't seen a posting in the Homebrew 
Digest
>about it yet and would like to order some tickets.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pat Humphrey
>=
>


Subject: Re: Ticket Inquiry

Thanks for the reminder--I don't read HBD much if at all anymore, and 
it
slipped my mind with everything else going on.  Let me know if
http:/www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers doesn't answer all your questions
 about
getting tickets.

Now go have a beer,
 .
Bob Paolino, Vice President
Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild and the Great Taste of the
Midwest<sm>



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:51:01 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re: honey beer

Brian,

>>I don't know much about priming with honey (or beer with honey) but
>>wouldn't what Dave wrote below then just ferment in the keg? Leaving

>>>...couldnt you just add some paturized honey at kegging time and
>>>force carbonate? I'm just curious.
>>>Dave

>It would work fine for most ales, as they would not ferment at cold
temps--
>depends on the yeast and how cold you keep your kegs exactly how much
it
>would ferment.  Drawing pints, you could easily tell if some pressure
was
>building.  Cornelius kegs will hold a good deal of pressure, well
beyond
>what would be total foam at the tap.

>--Brian

Well, if that is true, wouldn't you get a sweet beer?

I've done the overcarbonation in the keg thing... (someone else decided
to up the
pressure in my keg to get some beer out) Opened the tap to pour a
pitcher...
I lost my grip on the little "tap" and it proceeded to conver my ceiling
and the rest
of my brewing room with beer.....

Not good!

Prost!
Mark



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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:11:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Widget Free Guinness Head

HBD-
Alan Meeker wants to know about autoclave resistant organisms:

>So, does anyone have any REFERENCES on the existence of autoclave-resistant
>life forms?? Perhaps Dinococcus radiodurans is somewhat resistant, I'll have
>to check my notes...  Enquiring Minds Want To Know!!

Believe it or not, Fred has been toying around with a few of these organisms
in The Bent Dick HPL (High Pressure Laboratory).  I try to tell him he needs
to wear his pressure suit in there, but he complains that the suits irritates
his hemorrhoids.  Anyway, Fred's goal is to develop a way to deliver a rich,
N2 containing Guinness-like head on his brews without the use of a widget.  He
started working with Methanococcus jannaschii, which, as you know, has
nitrogen fixing properties.  Unfortunately, this organism performs best at 94C
and 200 atmospheres.  Man, that's murder on the eardrums!  (By the way, Alan,
this organism may be capable of surviving a properly functioning autoclave,
(http://www.ncgr.org/microbe/methanococcustxt.html) so watch it!)
After some reconstructive surgery at the local Otorhynolaryngoligist, Fred
turned his attentions to Azotobacter vinelandii, which is also a nitrogen
fixer, and it works at STP.  He's not sure whether to pitch this bacterium
with the yeast, or with the dry hops.  At least his ears have stopped
bleeding.

>Why is it these 'threads' always degenerate into an
>irritating shouting match?  Why can't we have positive
>threads, like, Hey I tried Nottingham yeast and it
>rocks, or Hey, if you like bitter and spicy beers you
>should try Chinook hops (my rhizomes have sent up
>their first shoot - it is about 4 inches tall now!
>Yes!)

BECAUSE DRY YEAST SUCKS, AND CHINOOK ARE TOO HARSH!

>The hops are looking so good this year, I don't want to
>screw it up.  Thanks in advance for any information/experiences.

   			Paul Shick

Paul- I had the same trouble with my hops last year.  2 tablespoons of Epsom
Salts spread around the base of each hops plant did wonders.

>I'm not a Wit lover and I only make them for my sister when she visits from
>Chicago.That is until I made my latest batch. What I don't like about the
>Wheat beers in general is the flavor especially with the Weihenstephan
>yeast.

Rob-
I think you are confusing Wits and Wiesses.  You shouldn't use Weihnstephan in
a Wit.  You shouldn't use unmalted wheat in a Wiess.  You shouldn't go behind
a barn with Dave Burley or Dr. Pivo.  Make full disclosure of any and all
squirrel activities.  Also, be sure to grip the cat's tail extra hard, as you
may only acheive a skining effect, and not true vertebral separation.

Eric Fouch
Head Pressure Gauge Calibrator
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery and HPL Facility
Kentwood, MI




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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:39:16 EDT
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: Polish Language

Jim Kingsberg wrote:

>>> Along the same lines, the Polish toast, (and I havent a clue how to spell 
this), "nastrovya", is extremely similar to the Russian toast, "nasdrovya" 
(the point being that they arent quite spelled the same, nor pronounced the 
same though people who are not fluent wouldnt know the difference...).  And 
by the way, I beleive the toasts translate to "to your health." <<<

As Alan McKay (don't remember exactly, but weren't it you, Alan?) already 
told us - in nearly all slavic languages, beer ist called pivo - but Polish 
language doesn't know the letter "v", so Jim is right: In Polish language 
it's "piwo". And the toast is spelled "na zdrowie".

In Russian language - on the other hand - you're always able to start a long 
discussion, wether it's "na zdrowie" or "za zdrowie" - the difference is "for 
the health" or "to the health". Never met two Russians, who had the same 
opinion, which toast is more convenient... They always solve the problem in a 
way like "nevertheless, the faster we drink, the better, even without such 
toasts..." :-)

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer

Post scriptum: The Russian problem reminds me, that the British people are 
dicussing, aren't they?, whether it's "to the ladies" or "on the ladies"... 
;-)


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:12:13 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: veteran of the pivo wars

collective homebrew conscience_

anybody have experience krausening and kegging bavarian weissbier?  i''m
doing a weizen this weekend and i plan on krausening it.  it's a good
experiment to compare with past non-krausened batches.  my intent in
krausening is simply to try it and see what the flavor impact is.

first question:  does it matter what yeast i use for the krausening?  i will
have an opportunity to use a freshly-fermenting munich helles as the gyle.
i wonder if this lager yeast would dry the beer out more than if i used a
weizen yeast for the gyle.  should i mash a couple degrees hotter to account
for this possibility, relative to my standard recipe, or is the attenuative
difference probably in the noise?  also, to keep the wheat/barley malt ratio
the same, i guess i should increase the wheat malt % slightly.

i can krausen in the secondary and let it ferment out for a few days before
kegging, or i can rack into the keg and krausen it there.  obviously i would
have to continue releasing pressure as the ferment continued.  what are the
advantages/disadvantages of each?

if i do use the munich helles as the gyle, should i krausen the batch and
then immediately start to ramp the temps down to start a lagering process?
is diacetyl (sorry, doc - different style here) production a problem when
krausening with a lager gyle at ale fermentation temps (~68 f)?  am i
correct in believing that the diacetyl production of the gyle depends more
on the helles batches' initial fermentation temp, and by the time i pitch
the gyle into the weizen, it's not going to be a major diacetyl producer,
but rather a diacetyl reducer?  i don't anticipate that there will be
significant diacetyl in the weizen batch at the time of krausening.

on this topic, i assume i pitch the gyle when it is in full-blown high
krausen. (?)

basically, i'm looking for advice based on experience and any pitfalls i
should avoid.

i'm considering writing an article for bt or zymurgy.  potential topic:
_the massive flavor impact of hydroxyapatite in beijing breweries_.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stlmo


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Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:12:51 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Potassium Sorbate in beers???

Hi all,

I have used Potassium Sorbate in my mead making to prevent further fermentation
before. But I have never used it in brewing. I have 2 kegs of (10 gal) of Am.
Wheat for a party next weekend. I would like to split them into 3'rds and make a
honey wheat, a raspberry wheat and leave one alone just in case... I would also
like to bottle some of these up for competitions especially the raspberry wheat.

Any suggestions?

Anyone have proceedures for pasturizing a corny keg in a 1/2 bbl keg of boiling
(or near boiling) water??

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...




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---