---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  taxes & beer (Bob Devine)
  More Sculduggery On The HBD ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Lallemand Nottingham Yeast ("James McCrorie")
  Dry Hopping (Bill Jankowski)
  Wort Stained Carpets, Denver Brew Clubs ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  Chicago area beer establishments (Harlan Bauer)
  Practical "lay-termed" step-up procedures ("Brett A. Spivy")
  Dry lag times ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Seattle Micro's and Brewpubs ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Sour Mash ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Quick Fermenting and Counter Pressure Bottling (woodsj)
  Joke (Dave Burley)
  Brewing Urban Legend Legacy, Stealth yeast (Dave Burley)
  Re: BPs in western NY (Tom Lombardo)
  Re: Rust Never Sleeps ("John Palmer")
  BPs in western NY (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  RE: Artful Brewing ("Daske, Felix")
  BPs in western Chicago (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  RE:  White Sugar in Real Ale. ("Nigel Porter")
  more dextrins...yay! (Marc Sedam)
  2 liter pop bottle draft ("Taber, Bruce")
  More Ironies ("Paul Niebergall")
  Summer Brewing/Kegging Question ("Nix, Andrew")
  water analysis (Foster Jason)
  Disturbing thought (i/t)" <stjones at eastman.com>
  The Best Ale I Ever Made Was a Lager ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Brazing SS (Joy Hansen)
  Krausening (Steve Lacey)
  Cleaning Wort/Hops (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Boneyard Brew-Off 6/12/99
* (http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/BUZZ/contest5.html);  Buzz-Off! 
* Competition 6/26/99 (http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 23:23:55 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: taxes & beer

Steven Alexander writes:
> Economics and law does seem to have a
> ridiculously large effect on brewing/style for some reason.

I agree. There are many examples where a new style was
silently encouraged by the prevailing tax laws.  For example,
the Scottish 70 schilling, 80 shilling, etc. beers were ranked
by their tax bracket.  Modern German beers are taxed according
to their strength (stark biers are really a tex term).

Beer style is not a set-in-concrete, never-changing formula.
Instead, a beer style emerges and is maintained by many
reasons -- culture, wars, geology, technology, available
grains, demographics, climate, and of course, taxes...

For a beer style that has been affected by many of these,
consider "India Pale Ales".  The original beer style was
developed to ship to Russia, but a reduction in trade caused
by a war (1) caused the makers to look for other markets. In
the late 1700s, England was engaging in colonial control of the
Indian subcontinent because, in part, of better ship technoogy (2).
British officers and administrators in India proved to be a reliable
source because cold weather grains did not flourish in India (3).
George Hodgson became rich shipping IPAs.  So other brewers followed
suit, especially those near Burton-on-Trent with its special geology (4)
that resulted in beers made from highly sulfated waters.
Government excise taxes (5) inevitably increased, so the IPAs that
were 17P were soon reduced in strength because it became more
profitable to brew weaker beers.

So, there you have it -- IPAs were affected by at least 5 big events!

Bob Devine



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:14:25 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: More Sculduggery On The HBD

After the tragic demise of both our janitors, Eric asks the question "who
left the note"? Eric, as discussed before in this forum, no-one here is who
they say they are, even the janitors aren't to be trusted, and if you read
your own posts you would see Dr Pivo is spamming in on the end of them! God
knows just what Fred is up to when you are in the little house (that's
Indonesian for the "dyke" which is Dutch for "toilet").



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:04:31 +0100
From: "James McCrorie" <James at craftbrewing.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Lallemand Nottingham Yeast

Scientific analysis here in UK has established that Lallemand dried
Nottingham Yeast is deficient of natural nutrients.  Lallemand (UK) have
confirmed this and say they are working on the problem.  The advice is to
use a good quality yeast nutrient at the rehydration stage.
Hoppy brewing,
James McCrorie



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 06:32:25 -0400
From: Bill Jankowski <wjankowski at snet.net>
Subject: Dry Hopping

Oh, can I relate. I switched to all grain last summer 
(actually, I think this may be my anniversary.) I was 
fixing to go to sea for about two weeks, so I figured that 
I'd throw a batch of brew in the closet, and it'd be ready 
for the secondary by the time I got back. The HBD had been 
talking a lot about dry hopping at the time, so I threw a 
couple of plugs in the 5 gal carboy with 5 gal of wort.

I got home, and my wife was about to kill me.

"look at this," she said, opened the closet, and showed me 
the beautiful fan shaped pattern of dried beer and hops on 
the closet wall and the coats in the closet.

"Cool," I said.

To truncate the rest of the story, and avoid excessive 
profanity on HBD, unless you've got high gloss oil based 
paint on the walls, scrub it down as far as you can with 
soap and water, the repaint the walls. For the floor, as 
best as I can tell, your best bet is to go rent one of 
those steam cleaners and suck out the stout.

Bill Jankowski

> First question, what can I use to clean hops off the
> ceiling and walls?
> Second, what is good for removing wort from the 
carpeting?



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:04:42 -0400
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <saunderm at vt.edu>
Subject: Wort Stained Carpets, Denver Brew Clubs

John Penn asks:

>Second, what is good for removing wort from the carpeting?

The best thing I've found is "Spot Shot".  You should be able to get it
from your local hardware store.  It seems to be able to get almost ANYTHING
out.  If you have pets, keep them away from that area of the carpet until
you have finished cleaning it.

Good Luck!

I am moving to Denver at the end of this month.  Any brew clubs I can get
involoved in?

Matthew in VA (Getting Ever Closer to moving to CO)






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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:26:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Chicago area beer establishments

Chris Geiser asks about Chicago area beer establishments. I can highly
recomend four must see places (not in any particular order):

1. Goose Island Brewery (the brewpub), 1800 Clybourn. 

2. Hop Cats Brewpub, Clybourn, Fullerton & North Avenue 

3. The Maproom (my all-time favorite bar), Armitage and Hoyne (Hoyne is
between Western and Damen). This place has an amazing selection of both
bottled and draft beers. Last time I was there, they had Delerium Tremens on
tap...yum!

4. Hop Leaf, Clark at Foster. This place specializes in bottled Belgian
ales. And just around the corner is the Neo-Futurist theater where Too Much
Light Makes the Baby Go Blind plays every weekend--30 plays in 60-minutes:
cost is determined by a toss of the dice.

There are definitely a lot of other places, and good ones too, but these are
my favorites. Maproom alone would require at least a week to sample all
their beers.

Hope this helps,
Harlan.

Harlan Bauer, Head Brewer           ...malt does more than Milton can
Copper Dragon Brewing Co.           To justify God's ways to man...
Carbondale, IL                                        --A.E. Houseman



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:34:54 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Practical "lay-termed" step-up procedures

Hello all.  I trust this finds everyone well.

I read the HBD religiously (which I do not believe to be the opposite of
scientifically) every morning.  I always appreciate the
passion and fervor with which posters state and defend their various
positions - even when it gets totally out of hand.  I
particularly appreciate the post of Jeff Renner (who I believe to be the
highest quality contributor to this Digest), Rob Moline (in
my limited experience, a real class act), and Dan Listerman
(phantastic).  I do though, get a lot out of the more scientific posts
WHEN they are not so far over my head as to make it impossible for me to
even look up the science being discussed and
decipher what has been said.

In 3052, Alan Meeker posted:

Basically, if you can get to 2 x 10^11 cells
that is a good number for pitching in a 5 gallon batch (though this is
supposedly still an order of magnitude lower than commercial pitch
rates!!).

I am pretty sure this is the most accurate way to make this statement,
and further that I could find out a measurement system for
how many yeast cells are in 5, 50, 100, 200, 400, & 800 ml of starter as
a result of a disciplined step-up procedure.  The
problem is that I am not in a position to have the time for this kind of
leg work.  What I would really like to see posted is
something like:   HYPOTHETICAL ALERT ***     From a Smack Pack of WYEAST
#1234 (assuming a cell count of
X-{real number here}), a starter of 3 cups water and 1/2 cup DME will
step-up to a cell count of Y in a time period of T1.
You can then double the volume of starter wort (6 cups of water and 1
cup of DME or Super Wort) and in T2 days/hours you
can reasonably expect to have a cell count of Z in ~2 liters [litres] of
starter which will sufficiently pitch to Five (5) gallons of
wort.

Is this kind of lay information not practical to asked for?  I would
assume after several years of high science, disciplined brewing
that there a some good rules of thumb out there.  If what I ask is
simplistic or naive, chalk it up to Newbie-istic doe-eyed
enthusiasm and privately email my "little talk".  Otherwise, I bet there
a lot of newbie, lurking brewers that could use this advice
to MAKE BETTER BEER.

Thanx . . .
Brett A. Spivy



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:16:14 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dry lag times

People are pondering the long lag time from Danstar yeasts. I have been
receiving reports from my customers of lag times on the order of 2 or 3
hours.
What's the difference?

>>I ran off the 75F wort on top of it, then aerated thoroughly
and put the carboys in a 65F basement.  It still took 30 hours to take
off.  <<
  Then

>>The yeast count in 10
grams per 5 gallons should be more than high enough to get a quick
start with fermentation, without having to go through a lot of
reproduction first.  <<

There is the answer, the second quote is accurate. There is no need for
reproduction, thus no need for aeration. Dry yeast are prepared with
glycogen and sterol levels at optimum. Additional wort oxygen only delays

the onset of fermentation due to the Pasteur effect.

Perhaps someone in a pub with some leftover wort and some Nottingham 
yeast
could try an experiment where they capture 2 carboys of last-runnings and

aerate 1 carboy and not the other and pitch with equal amounts of
Nottingham.
Then monitor to see which starts first, the aerated or non-aerated wort.
This may be of interest to someone having problems with lag times
like George DePiro (nudge nudge wink wink).
  I know tribal wisdom says that the Crabtree Effect will take over any
time
wort glucose levels are above 1% and that my answer is "off the wall"
but I'd be interested in some "anecdotal evidence".
  I would do it myself but have a cellar full of beer and won't be 
brewing
for
a while, and with it hitting 90 degrees lately even a "quicky" extract
batch
would turn the shop from sweltering to hellish.


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:37:50 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Seattle Micro's and Brewpubs

I'm going to be in Seattle for a few days and, being an East Coaster,
want to take advantage of the local amenities.  I'm only going to have 1
or 2 days that won't be consumed with familial responsibilities, so I'm
looking for the best of the best.

At this point, I'm planning on touring the Pyramid brewery (since Thomas
Kemper doesn't give tours anymore), but other than that, I don't know
what brews to look for on tap, what pubs to hit, what bottles to take
back with me, etc.  Or maybe there's even a better brewery to hit.

Any thoughts?  And response via private e-mail is fine.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
logic at skantech.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:37:56 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Sour Mash

Jim Liddil, that perfectionist and Master of Lambics (and I mean that
respectfully) will have certainly jumped in by now, but I'll throw these
thoughts over to Randy Pressley.

I have done sour mashes at an incubation temp of 135 F.  Don't know if
140 would be too high or not, but the character that came out at 135 was
exactly what I was looking for.

Also, use Belgian malt in your souring process-- if that's what you're
going for, then those are the indiginous bacteria you want.  Malt grown
in the US will have different strains of bacteria and the results may
not be up to snuff.

Finally, take care-- I understand that certain infections are quite
persistant in equipment
and structures.

And all of this is just supposition.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:41:20 -0400
From: woodsj at us.ibm.com
Subject: Quick Fermenting and Counter Pressure Bottling



This post relates to several recent themes.  By the way "Can't we all
just get along ?"

Brewed twice recently and pitched lots of yeast to my 5 gal. batches.
Pitched approx. 25-30 fluid ozs. of slurry harvested from primary ferment
and used within 2 weeks of harvest.  All conditions seemed perfect, well
aerated, right temperature, fermentation took off in 1.5 hours, the second
in 45 minutes.  No exaggeration.  Wild, violent primary ferment that stopped
in 4 days.  It seemed to reach final gravity sooner than I'm used to, even
before I had a chance to rack into secondary.  Final gravity was around
1.008 for an SNPA clone and 1.006 for a summer wheat (lawnmower).
I expected 3-5 points higher, not really concerned but is there any problems
with such a quick fermentation and a lower than expected finishing gravity ?

Another question.......haven't bottled in over a year but the lawnmower beer
will be this weekend.  I was never really comfortable bottling with all the time
and work sanitizing, scrubbing, concern over air and headspace, blah, blah.
Anyway I've heard a few things about counter pressure bottle pressure
filling and wondering where and if I could get some practical advice on
the procedures and equipment needed.  TIA, IMHO, ASAP, PDQ, BTW,
PITA, RIMS, and so on........

Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA




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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Joke

Brewsters:

As in the past, I have noticed an inverse
realtionship between HBD activity
and the outdoor temperature. In view of this
recent lightness of input here is a joke sent to
me recent;y:

A man went into the proctologist's office for his
first exam.  He was told to have a have a seat
in the examination room where he noticed that
there were three items on a stand next to the
doctor's  desk:

1)a tube of K-Y jelly
2) a rubber glove,
3) and a beer.

 When the doctor came in, the man said,
"Look Doc, this is my  first exam...
I know what the K-Y is for... 

and I know what the glove is for...
but what's the BEER for?"

The doctor became noticeably outraged
and stormed over to the door. The doc
flung the door open and  yelled to his nurse,
"Nurse! I said `a BUTT LIGHT'!!!" 


OK,OK not great, but it at least had the word
"beer" in it.
- -----------------------------------------------
Nathaniel Lansing and Steve Alexander are
discussing limit dextrins and Nathaniel uses
the term "malto-dextrin".

Some confusion exists about what a
malto-dextrin really is in some camps.

According to DeClerk p 262, vol1:

"It has long been known that the so-called
"maltodextrins" of the older workers, or
ALPHA-dextrins produced by the action
of alpha amylase on starch vary very
considerably in the number of glucose
units in the molecule and also in their
fermentability by yeast."

So three points:

1) maltodextrins are not beta limit dextrins
2) They are alpha limit dextrins
 and
3) some are fermentable.

He goes on to show that:

at least some trisaccharides are
fermentable by yeast . Maltotriose
is fermentable by yeast. Either 

one of two tetraoses can be present
and that one of them is fermentable.

These maltodextrins are most readily
formed when there is no beta-amylase
present. I guess this would be during the 

mash-out should there be any starch
present. This would most often happen
in decoction mashes.

To these early workers these maltodextrins
were considered very important, since
 they were thought to be responsible for
the "secondary" fermentation. It is true
that these oligiosaccharides do have
slower kinetics for fermentation by yeast
and would undoubtedly be the last to go.
Undoubtedly, these would still be
fermenting while the major ferment of
the mono-and di-saccharides would have
been completed. I guess they were
thought to be in a secondary fermentation in 

analogy to the bacterial fermentations 

in wine  (malo-lactic) and belgian beers.

It is my guess also that acid hydrolysis
of starch will produce alpha dextrins
(aka maltodextrins) and that these
would be similarly fermentable.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:22:58 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brewing Urban Legend Legacy, Stealth yeast

Brewsters:

Fred Wills asks for opinions on the reason for such
negative vibes on the use of Sucrose in brewing
and wonders if it is a Brewing Urbal Legend (BUL).

When you consider the Yuppie Colorado source
( CharlieP) for the use of corn sugar in brewing,
you can appreciate that this is a Brewing Urban
Legend Legacy ( BULL), as you suspected, from
the past belief that "sugar" is somehow bad for you, 

or that yeast do not ferment sucrose happily.
These same people seem to not understand that
those "complex carbohydrates", like pasta, convert
into sugar ( but not sucrose) in the body such that
a small serving of pasta is equivalent to eating 1/4 to
1/2 cup of sugar.

If anything, Sucrose, crystallized from
its natural plant source is far more pure
(and more "natural" IMO) than corn
sugar which is hydrolysed corn starch,
spray dried or crystallized. Under the
action of extracellular  yeast invertase, the
disaccharide sucrose is converted to
the monosaccharide hexoses,
glucose and fructose, and is fermented
directly by the yeast.

The word "inverted" ( no bad context intended) is
used because the fructose function is a much stronger
levorotary agent then glucose is dextrorotary and
the "inverted" sugar solution shows a net levorotary
behavior compared to the dextrortary power of 

sucrose. This ability of sugar solutions to rotate
light left (levo) or right ( dextro) is used to follow
the sugar conversion.

BTW, it is the opinion of some
experts that the reason the US has not won a 

marathon in 20+ years is the penchant US runners
have  for "carbing up". Such a behavior pattern
means that the runner is totally dependent on his
limited supply of glycogen ( intended for emergencies)
and will "hit the wall" in less than an hour. Those
runners whose main diet is not carbohydrates
(dare I say it ? meat) are able to utilize the fat
in their blood stream as well as what is stored
in their body ( many more calories than the
glycogen store) and have superior stamina.

I also suspect part of this concern about sugar
comes from our pioneering (1960s) British brewers
as in the early days they tried to use cheaper
sources of sugar ( golden syrup, for example)
and often tried to prepare "invert" sugar from
sucrose and citric and other acids. I rememeber
reading a review in one of the then HB magazines
and it was determined that using invert sugar
gave a "crisper" taste to the "lagers" they
made, compared to using sucrose. I don't
suppose it had anything to do with the
added acid in their preparation of the invert?

I also don't suppose the "superior" results obtained
from the home-made inverted sugar had anything
to do with the fact that this was boiled ( and sterilized)
whereas the crystalline sugar might not have been.
Do you?

Not to be too flip about this, sucrose is not  directly
fermentable by yeast and needs to be cracked into
the hexoses fructose and glucose for the yeast to 

ferment it directly.  While this is of little concern
at the beginning of the fermentation when other directly
fermentable sugars like maltose are available, 

during carbonation, the yeast in an alcoholic medium,
largely bereft of nutrients, are asked to ferment sugars.
Sucrose inversion just puts one more step in the
carbonation and using directly fermentable sugars
presumably makes carbonation more reliable. Also,
at the end of the ferment, the yeast population is
limited and the concentration of invertase must be
also, slowing this step even more. Corn sugar
could be useful here, but is not needed as a major
source of fermentables as so often prescribed.

If only CharlieP and these pioneers had
realized that the yeast would rather do it
themselves and  invert the sucrose as a
part of being a yeast, lots of these opinions
would not, hopefully exist. 


Andy Walsh did an interesting experiment
which he published here in the HBD
(using Cl**t** to prove it) in which bakers'
yeast was added to a sucrose solution
and within an hour it was completely
converted by the action of the yeast's
extracellular invertase. 


When I used to bottle and before hexoses
like crystalline corn sugar were on the
market, I used to use sucrose to prime.
But to make it a more reliable carbonator,
I used a "kraeusen" starter (see the HBD
archives) to which I added the whole lot
of the priming sucrose.  By the time the starter
was visibly active ( 12 hours), the sugar
had been inverted and was ready to be
easily utilized by the yeast for carbonation.
Concern that the yeast will consume some
of this priming sugar exists, but is not
significant if done in the prescribed manner.
- -------------------------------------------
Jeff Porterfield prepared an extract batch with added
DME. He did not see his yeast give any huge signs
of active fermentation, yet the SG was checked and 

in three days was 1.013.  The OG was apparently
1.051  and the beer tasted OK. Jeff wonders what
happened.

It is interesting he used Nottingham yeast which
has been observed here of late in the HBD as
being a slow starter.

While the temperature was high ( at 75+F) that does not
explain your phenomenon, as there is a tremendous
amount of CO2 which has to get out of the fermenter.
It is possible you missed it, but unlikely, if you don't
see the obvious ring left by a fermentation head which 

rose and fell. I am puzzled by your comment that the
beer tasted OK, since it sounds to me like it is yet
to ferment. Your OG of 1.051 sounds about right
but I don't know how you measured it.

The possibility is that you did not mix your wort
well and that water added to the top only gave you an
SG of 1.013. New brewers often underestimate how
important it is to stir well these high and low density
liquids, since gravity won't do it if the water is added
last.

I have had such stealth fermentations in starters, but that
was when the yeast content and SG were limited.


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:28:48 -0500
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: Re: BPs in western NY

Micah writes:
>
>Does anyone have a recommendations for brew pubs and/or micros in the 
>Jamestown/Salamanca area of western New York? I'm going to be in that
>area 
>later this month and would like to check out the local beers.

Micah,

There's one in Ellicottville (just west of Salamanca), but I don't recall
its name.  Check the "brew tour" at realbeer.com for details. 
Unfortunately, I haven't been in there - the night we went happened to be
a Monday, and we discovered they are closed on Mondays.  I did sample one
of their beers at another local place, the Barker Brew Company in Fredonia
NY.  (Barker is not a brewpub, but they do have a good selection of
micros, and some pretty decent food.)

Tom (originally from Jamestown NY, now living in Rockford IL)



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:20:49 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rust Never Sleeps

Thomas Murray asked for some pointers on brazing stainless steel.

For a good summary of brazing and welding of stainless, see
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/Welding.txt  on my website.
 
For a discussion of metal corrosion in brewing, see
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/brewcorr.txt

If these don't answer your specific questions, just email me.
John Palmer (metallurgist)

Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:15:06 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: BPs in western NY

Micah asked about BPs in his area:

Micah, see this great collection/resource. Enjoy!

http://www.beerexpedition.com/northamerica.shtml
<http://www.beerexpedition.com/northamerica.shtml> 

Todd W. Roat



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:24:25 -0700
From: "Daske, Felix" <DaskeF at bcrail.com>
Subject: RE: Artful Brewing

Steven J. Owens responds to my description of the feelings I have went
performing Brewing.  Steven searched for the meaning of Art only to find 33
different meanings in a single reference [kinda looks like the result one
might expect from a search of 'the meaning of 'life'' <big G>].  

It is becoming apparent that brewing, writing, painting, lethercraft, etc.
mean different things to different people.  Thus far, we have seen terms
like Science (application of), Art, and Craft used to describe these
activities.  Perhaps it is an attitude; the mundane, otherwise known as
WORK, is rarely elevated to the status of Art.  Art is the Will to create,
to adapt, and Play with your work.  Art can be found in the most unlikely
places, it exists in the mind of the individual.  There is no definitive
answer - only arrogance would suggest the contrary.

Enjoy your work, whatever it may be.

kind regards, Felix
Fallen Rock Home Brewery


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:26:17 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: BPs in western Chicago

Chris asked about BPs in Chicago:

Chris  see this great collection/resource. Enjoy!
http://www.beerexpedition.com/northamerica.shtml


My opinion would to definitely check out Rock Bottom Brewery downtown.  I
just came back from there and LOVED the Terminal Stout and Red Ale.  Foods
awesome too!  Peter, the brewmaster, was an excellent fellow who gave me a
tour, talked beer with me over pints for an hour, and even bought me a few.
He also recommended another brewpub called Hopcats about 4 miles away.
Didn't get to that one but will be back in Chicago the 23rd-24th and will go
then since he highly recommended it.  Rock Bottom and Hopcats have a few
standard styles (taste the same at all brewpubs) but are also allowed to
create there own artful, unique beers as well.  Terminal Stout at Rock
Bottom...Mmmmmmm

Todd W. Roat


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:38:54 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE:  White Sugar in Real Ale.

>I recently bought the book "Brew Your Own British Real Ale 
>Recipes for More Than 100 Brand-Name Real Ales" by Wheeler 
>and Prost and I had a question
>regarding the ingredients of the recipes listed. I noticed that 
>many, if not most, of the recipes call for the addition of "white 
>sugar". 
>After reading some of the thoughts and articles about this,
>table sugar supposedly imparts a cidery taste into beers. I have 
>spent quite a bit of time in Britain in the past 6 months, but never 
>noticed ANY cidery aftertastes in the CC ales. Any ideas or 
>explanations? Thanks in advance.
 
I think it is quite common for breweries over here to use 'brewing 
sugar' (a euphamism for white cane sugar I'm sure) to increase the 
alcohol content of the beer quite cheaply - although on a recent 
visit to the King & Barnes brewery, the brewer said that they don't 
use sugar as it is too expensive - malt is a more cost effective 
option.

I occaisonally use it, sometimes if I am following a recipe and 
sometimes if I want to make a beer with slightly leass body than 
an all malt ale. If used to excess it can produce thin a beer, but I've 
never come across a cidery taste. As a previous post said, I think 
the main reason for it having a bad name is that it is used to 
excess in cheap kits, producing poor results and putting people off 
homebrewing after their first go at it.

By the way, Graham Wheelers books (especially his first Home 
Brewing, published by CAMRA) are pretty much the standard 
brewing references in the UK.

Nigel Porter


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:48:43 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: more dextrins...yay!

There have been a few messages recently discussing whether dextrins and
"malto-dextrins" are the same.  The answer...sort of.  Dextrins are the
resulting mix of oligosaccharides [Steve got me on the nomenclature
here...I agree with him] which are the result of the acid hydrolysis
("dextrinization" in the old manufacturing days) of starch.  It's meant
as a catch-all.  Nowadays they generally do the conversion with
alpha-amylase, beta-amylase, and pullulanase--a debranching enzyme which
cleaves the alpha 1-6 linkage.

Maltodextrin, however, is a defined class of dextrins for the purposes
of  labeling nomenclature given by the FDA.  Any food product that, upon
analysis, has an average DP (degree of polymerization...by the way)
between 5 and 20  can be given the label "maltodextrin".  DP>20
materials are labeled "food starch-modified", and native starch is
labeled "food starch", even if it's a hybrid.  I think DP<5 materials
are labeled "corn syrup" but frankly I've forgotten that one.  From a
marketing perspective it's much better to have the label read
"maltodextrin" than "food starch-modified" because the consumer
perceives "maltodextrin" to mean sugar.  No one wants to know how starch
chemists "modify" the food starch anyway.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Cheers!
Marc Sedam
"Huisbrouwerij Zuytdam"



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Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:23:13 -0400 
From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at polaris.nrc.ca>
Subject: 2 liter pop bottle draft

In last month's issue of Brewing Techniques magazine there was an article
that described my kitchen fridge draft system that uses 2 liter pop bottles.
There was limited room in the article for detail so if anyone wants more
information they can contact me directly at bruce.taber at nrc.ca

Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ontario, Canada
bruce.taber at nrc.ca


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:33:16 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: More Ironies

In HBD 3053 George De Piro writes:

>Like some others that have posted here, I have
>experienced slow starts with this yeast.  It takes
>upwards of 24 hours to get any activity.  If you
>think a long lag makes you nervous with a 5 gallon batch,
>you should try it with 10 barrels!

Imagine that, pro brewer GDP experiencing lag times of "upwards of 24 
hours"!!  That being the case, I guess he takes back the lambasting and 
public flogging that he dealt me in the past when I suggested in the HBD 
that a 12 hour lag time (let alone 24 hours) was not really a problem.

What follows is selected excerpts from earlier digests:

>Paul talks about the "art" of yeast pitching.  He says a few things 
>that need to be commented on.
>A 12 hour lag time is too long.  Sure, it will work, but you maximize 
>the chance of making outstanding beer if you pitch adequately, provide 
>oxygen for the yeast, and thus experience a very short lag.
         
>I'm sorry to be ranting like this, but there are some places where 
>science comes before art.  Be as artful as you want when formulating 
>recipes.  Certain brewing procedures are founded on science, though.  
>Yeast management is among them.
     
Huhhm, George must not be practicing very good yeast management.
     
>Long lag time.  During this time wort spoilers can grow unhindered 
>by fermentation by-products.  Ever notice a slight vegetal taste in 
>your beer?  I have in mine.  That is formed during the long lag.  You 
>shouldn't be waiting 12-36 hours to see Kraeusen formation.

Does you beer suffer from a vegetal taste?  How about the ever present 
bacteria that immediately start multiplying exponentially?  Your beer must 
be terribly contaminated because as you have pointed out to me and others 
(on numerous occasions), lag times in excess of a few hours WILL result in 
spoiled beer.  Surely your impeccable taste buds would be picking up these 
taste flaws.
   
>The one quart starter Chuck uses is better than some, but not nearly 
>optimal.  I get upset if my lag time is more than 2-3 hours.  To 
>achieve this you must pitch a ton of yeast.  Repitching from a 
>previous batch is a great way to do this, and is essential for quality 
>high-gravity beers (and damn useful for lagers, too).

Obviously, you must not be pitching enough yeast.

Anyway, I find it extremely amusing how ones perception of things can 
change when confronted with the obscure concept of .........(uh, how 
should I say this?)......... REALITY!

Paul Niebergall

(Sorry, George.  My memory is as impeccable as your taste buds and you 
left yourself wide open  for this one)


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:24:55 -0400
From: "Nix, Andrew" <anix at bechtel.com>
Subject: Summer Brewing/Kegging Question

Normally, I do not brew in the summer, but this year I am determined to brew
as much as possible, so I will.  Does anyone have any suggestions on beating
the summer heat???  I live in a 2 bedroom apt. and brew in the kitchen.  I
usually ferment in the "den" with the blinds closed.  With the current heat
in the east (well it's cooled down a LITTLE), I have had the AC cranked.  I
want to insure that I do not ruin my beer due to huge swings in
fermentation, etc.  A brew fridge is NOT an option.  Using a wet towel and a
fan MIGHT be.  Any suggestions would be helpful!!!

Another question.  I currently own a small "apartment" fridge which just
barely fits a 3 gal corny keg.  I have a gas line that comes in the side and
a tap out the front of the fridge.  I brew 5 gal batches.  Is anyone else in
this situation???  I don't want to bottle the extra 2 gals, but I'm afraid
that if I put the other 2 in a second corny keg and leave it at room temp
with pressure on it, that it might go bad.  Do you think the positive
pressure will keep the nasties out provided the keg is sanitized prior to
filling????  If so, I could just swap kegs when the first one runs out.

Andrew C. Nix
Frederick, MD


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:43:33 PDT
From: Foster Jason <jasfoster at hotmail.com>
Subject: water analysis

You will all forgive me. The one part of homebrewing that totally confuses 
and befuddles me is the science of water chemistry. My only other post to 
this fine digest was about my local water supply. This post is as well.

I have an opportunity to change my water source (my city water is badly 
chlorinated, very hard and rather harsh). I am looking at the analysis of 
the water, and know that it deals with my chlorine and other problems, but 
of course, it now seems I have not enough of certain minerals.

Here is the analysis:

alkalinity 127 mg/L
chloride 1.03 mg/L
sulfate 10.09 mg/L
hardness (as CaC03) 110 mg/L
calcium 25.7 mg/L
magnesium 11 mg/L
potassium  0.58 mg/L
sodium 1.55 mg/L
pH  8.5
total dissolved solids 150 mg/L

Everything else is at non-detectable levels.

I do realize that different styles need different water composition, but I 
also know that the composition changes revolve mainly around a few main 
elements.

My question is this: what should I do to bring levels UP to the appropriate 
place. Which additives do what? I realize this is a bit of a broad question, 
but as I said, water chemistry gets my head spinning.

Anyone who has a easy-to-understand description of what to add when would 
become one of my favourite people.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you all.


Jason Foster
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:08:20 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (i/t)" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: Disturbing thought


Greetings, all.

(rant mode on)

Ian posted for the first time in #3051 asking some questions on yeast. Does
anyone else find it disturbing that Ian felt the need to preface his post
with a plea for the group to be gentle on him? He has been lurking for a
while, and has apparently gotten the notion that there is a very real
possiblity that he may get slammed for asking questions.

Although I am not a frequent poster, I have posted a few times, and have
been diligently reading the digest for 3 plus years. In that time I have
witnessed some rather nasty comments on this forum when there is
disagreement on the information offered. Is this the kind of image we as a
group want to project? How do we hope to contribute to the expansion our
great hobby if new brewers are afraid to ask us questions? After all, 99+%
(QDA) of the 'answers' on this forum are in fact opinions, and when people
have opposing opinions, there is the potential for vigorous discussion, and
most times this is done in a decent and proper manner. But if someone who
has been lurking for a short while gets the notion that he may be attacked
for asking questions, I think it is time for us all to stop and consider the
image that our posts project of us. Let us all be civil on this forum and
not scare off any new or future brewers.

(rant mode off)

Oh yeah, to make this a brewing post, I guess I need to ask a question.
Tennessee recently changed the laws to allow beers 6%abv and above to be
sold in our package stores, and I found one that I had never seen before, JW
Lees Harvest Ale. It is an incredible brew, and wondered if anyone had any
information on it.


Steve 
Johnson City, TN 
http://home.att.net/~stjones1



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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:47:37 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at unix.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: The Best Ale I Ever Made Was a Lager

Just trying to get your attention. I posted in # 3045
"Bittersweet success or a Victory of my own"  with an IBU of 80
something and claiming to have come close to Victory's Hop Devil
and no one even raised an eyebrow. Am I that well respected that
everyone just wrote down the reciepe with complete acceptance?
By the way the beer is now 2 months old and just wonderfull.

Rick Pauly
charlottesville, va


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:17:42 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Brazing SS

Hi,

I started a welding course to familiarize myself with brazing and welding.
I must say that I haven't been able to develop any technique that I would
trust to prevent rust, yet produce a satisfactory braze.   At least silver
solder won't burn through!


I tried a very small oxyacetylene torch and burned the project up.  Then, I
tried my blow torch like propane torch and burned the project up.  Then, I
tried my propane torch with the needle point flame and had some success at
joining; however, it didn't look pretty!

I've recently acquired an acetylene torch  (like a plumber would use) that
may help me with the heat control or burn things up even faster.  The
special flux melts at the flow point of the silver solder.  I think it must
coat both the inside and outside of the metals being joined.  I understand
that tinning is preferable.

The silver solder must be food grade!  I guess this means that there's no
lead, cadmium, or chromium.

To continue, SS warps badly when heated, to say the least.  If the problem
with heating SS greater than 800 degrees is that the trace elements migrate,
then, no amount of acid pacification can solve the problem?  The entire
piece must be tempered in an oven/furnace at the proper temperature.  At
least, this is what I understand from my readings of class material and
"Brewing Techniques".  I guess that this means that the temperature of the
project must be raised slowly, yet prevent oxidation that will prevent the
joining of the stainless steel.  Afterall,  the purpose of the oxide surface
that forms is to prevent joining with anything!

It is possible to use SMAW with special rods, and MIG.  Neither is practical
for the thin material involved in kettles.  The backside of any weld must be
protected from air.  AC has an unstable arc that causes failure in my
attempts to weld.  Lots of holes.  So, I just bought a DC unit that is
modified for TIG touch start.  Not much better than the AC so far.  The
touch start contaminates the electrode and causes the arc to destabilize!
So much for welding aluminum gum wrappers together.  However, I've read that
TIG is the only practical way to join SS.  However, BURP club member
experiences with silver soldering fittings on Sanke kegs has worked out just
fine.

So, what advice can I give you?   I've tried to point out that joining
metals is craft learned over many years of practice and experience.  Unless
you are retired, as I am, and have lots of spare time to tinker, take your
connection projects to a competent craftsman or a club member experienced
and successful at joining SS.  My fittings were TIG joined by a welder
retiree working from his garage.  $5 a fitting for perfection!  If I ever
find success with welding SS, each weld will cost $500!

OTOH, I'd really like to hear from you regarding your success with silver
soldering.  I think the solder costs $15 an ounce and my practice is very
expensive!  I wouldn't substitute jewelry solder for that intended for
joining metals in general.  Contact a local welding supply shop for
assistance.

Good luck,

                                                Joy"T"Brew



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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:58:57 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Krausening

There must be a rule of thumb for krausening. Would some learned colleague
care to share it with me? For a given volume of fermented beer (say 22 L or
5 gal), about how much wort (gyle?)do you add and how do you adjust this up
and down in response to its SG? I know the exact numbers will vary depending
on just how much carbonation you are looking for, but I just want a middle
of the road guide, roughly in line with the old 3/4 cup corn sugar. Is this
goop added when it hits high krausen, as with a starter, or do you just add
yeast, stir and add to secondary/bottling bucket?
Private email is fine. Many thanks in advance,

Steve Lacey
stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au


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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:42:03 -0400
From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
Subject: Cleaning Wort/Hops

"Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu> had an unfortunate blow-out experience
and was wondering:

"First question, what can I use to clean hops off the ceiling and walls?"

I use simple green. (No affiliation, it just happened to be under my sink
and
worked pretty well.)

"Second, what is good for removing wort from the carpeting?"

Well, since I live in a studio apartment with wall to wall WHITE carpeting
I feel your pain.  For small splatters I just use whatever "carpet spot
remover"
I happen to have (it doesn't seem to make much difference which brand...)
or if there is a large mess, I just pretend it is time to move and I shampoo
my carpets with one of those "Rug Doctors" (You can find them at your local
chain
grocery store...)  It seems to work pretty good, and it soothes my
girlfriend
enough so she will drive me to the brew store next time...  The should only
run you about $20.00.

Pete Santerre


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