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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: converting kegs (J Daoust)
  B-Weisse (Biergiek)
  SS Keg cutting discussion... ("Darrin Smith")
  Italian Bock & Berliner Weiss (Ted McIrvine)
  Re: maltotetraose fermentation !! SG vs reducing end conc. ("Stephen Alexander")
  Wisconsin Homebrew Supply Status (WayneM38)
  RE: Stirplate problem/Electronics (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Balling and Plato ("Richard Lehrl")
  Fruit beers (Clark)


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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:29:03 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: converting kegs

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.  I used a sawzall to open mine
and it worked great. I drew a circle on the top. Drilled a series of
small holes to start the blade, and was done in minutes. Then I hit the
edge with my random orbit sander and now have a nice smooth edge. Jerry
Daoust


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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:03:11 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: B-Weisse

The easiest way to make a Berliner Weisse is to use Wyeast 3278 Belgian 
Lambic Blend.  It contains Brett with lactic acid.  The important parameters 
are temperature and length of fermentation.  For my last B-Weisse I let the 
ferment sit at 65F-70F for 6 weeks and it came out extremely sour.  Next time 
I will taste the ferment at one week intervals and stop fermentation when the 
degree of sourness is to my liking.  To salvage my last overly sour beer, I 
will use it to blend with another beer that used a standard yeast like 1056.  
I am also going to blend 1/2 a gallon of it with a Wit that has just finished 
fermentation.

I have tried the no boil technique and tossing in a handful of malt kernels 
in the ferment, both produced some sourness.  The 3278 was much easier to use.

Kyle


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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 06:35:18 -0700
From: "Darrin Smith" <signal7 at my-deja.com>
Subject: SS Keg cutting discussion...


There has been a recent flurry of stuff about how to
cut a SS keg and while all of the suggestions are 
valid, it seems no one has pointed out that sharp
tools are probably more important than *which* tool
you use.

As more of the engineering types will know, when you
try working SS with a dull tool, you will end up 
hardening the surface of the SS as you stress the 
surface(anyone else remember those terminal 
stress/maleability diagrams from strength of 
materials class?).  This has a sort of exponential
effect as once the surface begins to harden, it 
becomes more difficult to cut and throws off more 
heat.  At some point, you're only generating heat 
and you won't be making any headway.  Finally, when 
you do restart your cut with a new bit, you will 
have to overcome the initial surface hardness that 
was created with the dull tool(and at that point 
you've already degraded the effectiveness of the 
new tool/bit before you've even made any headway).  

Overall, I would observe that those using grinders 
probably don't/won't ever see this problem, but 
anyone using drills, sawz-all's, sabre saws, etc.
will have to keep this in mind when working with SS.


- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:01:49 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Italian Bock & Berliner Weiss

Kelly asked for an extract recipe to produce a reddish MaiBock similar
to Moretti La Rossa back on June 22nd.  I'd shoot for a 70 gravity with
a roughly equal mixture of Munich Malt and Pils malt.  All grain, I'd
use 7 lbs of Munich and 7 lbs of Pils malt.  I'm not positive about
using malt extract, but I think about 10 lbs of dry Munich malt would
get an extract brewer close to this.  I'd hop it with 1 Oz Perle 8 AA
boil, 1 oz noble hops at 30 minutes, and 1/2 oz noble hops at both 15
minutes and 5 minutes.  Ferment with lager yeast, diacetyl rest after
krausen falls, and long cold lager.

My experience with Berliner Weiss is similar to that of Tidmarsh Major
in HBD 3067.  I used 3.5 lbs Wheat and 3.5 lbs Pils and got a 32 gravity
for 5.5 gallons.  I used stale hops, a very short boil, and wild
yeast/ale yeast mixture to ferment.  It wasn't sour enough, although it
did well in competition.  Next time I'm not going to boil and will sour
mash.  I'll blend in another batch if it needs adjustment.

Cheers
Ted
 
> From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
> Subject: Got any Italian beer recipes?

> Does anyone have recipes to emulate the Italian beers mention in the
> previous post...Peroni and Moretti...particularly the 'reddish bock'?  > 
> At present, I'm only set up for extract brewing..so, any recipes for this
> for extract brewing much appreciated..!!!


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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:03:03 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: maltotetraose fermentation !! SG vs reducing end conc.

Dave writes ...

(apologies for the terseness - 8k limit)
M3 = maltotriose
M4 = maltotetraose

>>Were they all primed ?
>According to what Louis said to us - Yes [...]
Thanks.  I agree - testing primed beers is irrelevant to the
premise at question.

>Actually, Steve, AlK and I have been unable to comment on this subject
>publically
Louis lifted  the HBD Clinitest censorship months ago! Post away.

===

>>>Data I have seen suggests that all yeast can metabolize tri-saccharides
>Yes, but only certain ones as I recall.
Among the glucose polymers yeast can handle 1-4 linked sugars
(like maltose and M3) not 1-6 linked glucose units (like
isomaltose).   Other fermentable polysaccharide (down in the noise)
contain non-glucose units, like fructose in sucrose, and galactose
in melibiose.  For each such - yeast have distinct enzyme (and gene).

>>>and lager yeast can also metabolize maltotetraose in the
>>This will come as great news to whisky distillers which currently pays a
>>premium price  for a proprietary yeast
>Maybe someone sold them a lager type yeast. Who knows?
Reed knows ...

The British distilling industry pitches ~0.4% wt/wt of random yeast
leftovers from the brewing and baking(!!) industry.  A second pitching is
"M" yeast from DCL Yeast, Scotland. It's highly attenuative, and can
"partially" ferment maltotetraose. This unusual feature is the  reason
it's much written about.  Not clear that "M" yeast is an S.Cerevisiae
yeast at all.  Reportedly a genetic cross.

>"partially" do you mean only some isomers or what?
No!  M4  is 4 alpha-linked 1-4 linked glucose units. Any isomer
is  referred to by another a specific name.  Partially fermentable means
that yeast cease fermenting before the specie of sugar is completely
removed.

>Let's see the quote, please, where they say *exactly* this.
Read 'em and weep Dave.  Of *brewing yeast* they say ...

1/ ['Yeast Technology', Gerald Reed and T.W.Nagodawithana, 2nd ed.,
AVI, 1989]. pp 72 :  "Both ale (S. cerevisiae) and lager (S. uvarum)
strains have the ability to ferment the sugars glucose, fructose, sucrose,
maltose and maltotriose present in regular wort. Brewers yeasts are unable
to utilize maltotetraose, higher dextrins and starches."

Also pp 105,  "As previously reported maltotetraose and higher glucose
polymers are not fermented by brewer's yeast and can be recovered
quantitatively in the final beer."

also pp139:  "The maltotetraose, higher molecular weight dextrins and [...]
of the wort, remain unchanged during fermentation due to the inability of
yeast to utilize these."

>>Please cite the source <if you actually have one>.
>Steve I don't like this snotty attitude.
Your digression into name calling here is not worth following. Let me
congratulate you instead on your *new* approach of actually providing
a citation, and one less than 4 decades old !!

>Read Randy Mosher's book "The
>Brewer's Companion" , 1995 Alephenalia Pub, p90
>
>                  % total Carbohydrates   Fermentability
>                   Wort    Beer
>Maltotetraose   6       6-12            Lager Only

Without knowing about error bounds, and whether alcohol was
considered as carbohydrate this says little.  Have an
originating source reference for these numbers  ?

>"Raffinose, [...] is used as a
>positive test for lager yeast, which can ferment it, whereas ale yeast
>cannot."

Incorrect too.. Lager AND ale yeast hydrolyze&metabolize a fructose
from raffinose.  Only lager can further metabolize the melibiose left

>[...] I have read statements consistent with the above on
>many occasions in various books.

If you have many sources then why did you quote a HB book by an
amateur instead of an authoritative reference ?  It's unlikely you can find
a good source for an error.

Let's compare ...
Gerald Reed, former VP of Research and Consultant for Universal Foods
author of: Yeast Technology, 1st & 2nd ed., editor Enzymes in Food
Processing, 1st & 2nd & 3rd ed, editor Biotechnology, Volumes 1-12
(VCH). Author of numerous book chapters, publications, and patents.
He has over 40 years of experience in food and fermentations. He
received his Ph.D. degree from University of Prague, Czechoslovakia.

 ... and...
Tilak W. Nagodawithana is Director of Technologies, Universal Foods
author of Savory Flavors (Esteekay) co-author, Yeast Technology 2nd ed.
Enzymes in Food Processing, 3rd ed. co-editor Biotechnology author
and co-author of several book chapters, publications and patents. He
has over 20 years of experience in food and fermentation and is a
member of the Institute of Food Technologists.  He received
his Ph.D degree in 1973 from Cornell University, New York.

 ...and...
Randy Mosher is a graphic designer (Randy Mosher Design, Chicago)
has been a home brewer for 10 years, and designs and markets recipe
formulation tools.


>I suggest that perhaps your reference is incorrect or you are interpreting
>it incorrectly, since [...]

[Big laugh] If you'd rather believe a graphics designer than 2 Ph.Ds in
the field of fermentation science on a question of yeast metabolism - then
it's unsurprising that your thinking is so muddled. *EVERY* source I
consulted agrees that M4 is not fermentable by brewing yeast:

2/ Fal Allen writes in BT, "Wild yeast may be able to ferment sugars that
normal cultured yeast cannot (like maltotetraose and dextrins), ".  Fal is a
commercial brewer and Siebel Grad.

3/ http://www.yeastlink.com/ (quite a nice commercial brewing site)
"About 70 % of wort sugars are fermentable. Yeast can ferment maltose,
maltotriose, glucose, fructose and sucrose. Yeast cannot ferment
maltotetraose and dextrins. "

4/ ['The Yeasts", Academic Press, 1979, Rose and Harrelson], vol 3,
pp 157: "Brewers yeast are unable to utilize isomaltose or
maltosaccharides more complex than maltotriose."

5/ Kunze's list of fermentables (pp78) stops at tri-saccharides.

6/ M&BS, pp 566: "higher polymers of glucose, such as maltotetraose
and dextrins are not fermentable by brewers' yeast."

7/ ['Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing', Hough, Cambridge Press, 1985] pp
115: "Sugars are metabolized in a sequence [...] and finally maltotriose
[...]"

8/ ['Distilled Beverage Flavour', Piggott & Paterson, 1989, VCH Press] pp287
states that S.C and S.Uvarum are "capable of fermenting [list] and
maltotriose [...] but not other dextrins."  Goes on to contrast with
non-ale/lager yeasts and bacteria that specifically can ferment
M4.

=====

>>>You may also wish to comment that 0.5% sugar
>>>is on the order of magnitude of one or two SG units.
>>For trisaccharides - the most prevalent sugar at/near EOF
>>0.5% Clinitest is 6 SG degrees, not "one or two".
>If you assume stoichiometry which no one knows. That is, unless you
have a reference for this. Do you?

I sent a reference several months ago. Robyt, 'Carbohydrates' I think.
But also see ['Carbohydrate Analysis: A practical Approach', Chaplin
& Kennedy eds] pp 46+, and their reference [Lane&Eynon, 1923,J
Chem.Soc.Ind, 42 32T] for the correction term (small correction).

Go back and see Andy Walsh's experiment. You cannot rationally
argue from Andy's result of 4SG degrees of M3 and 0.25% Clinitest,
that somehow "one or two SG units". of M3 will get you 0.5% Clinitest.
How could half the amount of M3 give twice the Clinitest reading ??

Your statement defies theory and experiment.

It's sad that you would rather defend a falsehood and attempt to
mislead  than admit you posted in error. Brewing yeast do not ferment
M4, and the variability in EOF Clnitest readings is likely comparable to
error in estimated attenuation SG - (3 to 6 SG degrees) vs 1/4%-1/2%
Clinitest.

 -S









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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:35:53 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Wisconsin Homebrew Supply Status

In a message dated 6/25/99 11:16:58 PM Central Daylight Time, Keith Busby 
<kbusby at ou.edu> writes:

<< 1) I shall be moving to Wisconsin round about this time this year. I
 gathered a while ago from Steve Potter that the homebrew supply situation
 in Madison is not great. Is Milwaukee any better? We will probably be
 living halfway between the two. >>

We are fortunate to have 7 homebrew supply shops in the Metro Milwaukee area:
Homebrew Depot, (3) Frugal Homebrewer Shops, Brew and Grow, Purple Foot and 
Market Basket. There are at least 4 active clubs in the area.

Steve Potter will no doubt point out that this fall, Milwaukee Area Technical 
College will be offering a Brewing Certificate Program.  Laurel Maney, 
Program Director, also runs excellent weekend brewing workshops at MATC with 
professional brewers as guest speakers/instructors and also does online 
distant learning brewing classes for credit.

http://online.milwaukee.tec.wi.us/foods-431/

We also have great brewing water from Lake Michigan.

Get a copy of the Milwaukee MetroYellow pages when you get here.

Not sure of how you brew but you will find it interesting brewing outdoors in 
January.........

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee


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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:20:52 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Stirplate problem/Electronics

From: Harlan Bauer <blacksab at midwest.net>

>I have an older model stirplate that overheats. It's not the motor, it's
>the potentiometer. The problem is that after a period of time, the VERY
>hot pot heats the aluminium case creating a stiring hotplate. I COULD
>solve the problem by making the control remote, but I'd rather replace
>the pot with something that doesn't cause the overheating. Any ideas?

Are you sure the pot is bad.  The pot will produce heat as a normal part of
operation, but it could possibly be faulty if the resistance went up, or if
the wiper has developed poor contact.  If the pot has gone bad, chances are
that the motor would go very slow and you would not achieve nominal speed.
What is more likely is that the motor is dragging because of a tight
bearing, causing more current to be drawn through the pot and more heat. If
you run the pot at max, it is essentially out of the circuit (0 resistance),
and the motor gets full power, the pot should not get warm in this case.

You should be able to order the Ohmite part from any good electronics parts
store.

I have a small cheap stir plate, and I also get too much heat sometimes.  I
have measured my yeast starter at 80f in a room at 65f. So I am considering
building my own stir plate and placing a small fan inside to cool the motor
and controller.

Until then, I put 2 or 3 beer coasters under my flask, and this seems to
help insulate it from the hot plate.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:06:50 +0200
From: "Richard Lehrl" <r.lehrl at xpoint.at>
Subject: Balling and Plato

While in the Anglo-American area the system based on Specific Gravity (SG)
is used for measuring the concentration of wort, Germany uses Degrees
Plato. This system was develloped by a man named "Fritz Plato". Plato based
his tables on the works of "Balling", who invented the Hydrometer in 1843.
I would be interested to know a little bit about Balling, but can't find any
information about him. Does anyone know at least his fill name and
birth/death dates?
Thank you
Richard




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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:29:52 -0400
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: Fruit beers

Hi list:

First a big thank you to all who responded to my query about a good head on
a beer.  One of the best things about homebrewing is to be able to sit back
and relax with a beer that you have made yourself.  I need to work on
appreciating all aspects of brewing not just guzzling the final product.
Carbonation, head, aromas, subtle tastes and textures all combine into a
relaxing time to be spent appreciating the work of others who have worked
to develop recipes anfd procedures that make the final product something to
be enjoyed.  Which brings me to my next question.  I know that many of you
shudder at the thought of adding fruit to a beer, but I had a cherry
raspberry ale from The Troy Pub and Brewery that was really outstanding.  I
have found recipes for many different fruit beers, but none for cherries or
a combination of cherries and other fruits.  I mention cherries only
because I have a sour cherry tree covered with fruit and the black
raspberries are about to ripen here.  Does anyone have or can anyone direct
me to a recipe that includes cherries?  It would have to be an extract
recipe and not necessarily one that you have tried yourself.  Thank you for
your help.

Dave Clark



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