---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Drunk Monk's Beer Page ("Mike Piersimoni")
  Dr Pivo Returns To Say Goodbye ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  rookie ask's ("Anthony Divjak")
  lactose dosage (Brad McMahon)
  Stoudt's Festival (ernest baker)
  re: cold vs cellar storage of ales (KMacneal)
  Trub Removal (KMacneal)
  5l minkegs (KMacneal)
  Dr Pivo ("Anthony Barnsley")
  re. Sweet stout (Dean Fikar)
  That Outrageous Sexist Photo ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  Re: Sexist photo and dishwashers (Michael A. Owings)
  Water Synthesis (AJ)
  Scared  Brewer (imac)
  re. Sexist photo/PC/Car oil change (Dean Fikar)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:40:03 -0700
From: "Mike Piersimoni" <msp at dplus.net>
Subject: Drunk Monk's Beer Page

Just another beer page but check it out anyway.
Too much free time.
Recipes, software and links.
Just cut and paste this link        www.freeyellow.com/members6/dmonk/



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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:53:19 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Dr Pivo Returns To Say Goodbye

To All Who Read The HBD,
           It would seem that Dr Pivo has decided to give this forum a miss
and say farewell. I personally am sad to see this happen. Not that I blame
anyone in particular. I do not have the scientific aptitude of Dr Pivo, nor
Steve Alexander, Dave Burley, Al K, so on and so on. Some of us are more
simple in our approach to brewing. But I do know that a lot of what goes
towards good brewing is a feel for things and a good grasp of what you are
trying to achieve. This differs greatly from pure scientific formula. In
this area Dr Pivo (at least to me) has shown a flare that most others lack.
And to boot a good sense of humour.
          A few weeks back there was a flurry of posts that gleefully were
addressed to Dr Pivo by his proper name, as though such discovery was a
major coup for those involved. This pathetic attempt to ridicule the man I
actually found in bad taste. Funny that coming from me who has done his fair
share of upsetting people.
          Dr Pivo, if you do decide to sign off, thanks for the laughs and
contributions that so many of us have enjoyed. And remember you promised to
come and fix these holes in the kitchen wall for Jill.

Cheers
Phil Yates.



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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:37:00 -0500
From: "Anthony Divjak" <kajvid at silk.net>
Subject: rookie ask's

Dear fellow listers!

Being a rookie in true sense of the word, as I have only done about eight to
maybe ten batches on home brews (all from store bought kits) and had
inconsistant results every time, even with same beer kits.
    The inconsistency is not a problem, the taste is though. You see, I came
from a country with excellent beer sources, Slovenija-( former norhern
Yugoslavija). The local beer I am refering to is Lasko Pivo (Laschko). It is
light bodied and wonderfull tasting summer or winter due (in my opinion) to
local grown Hop, from Savinja Valley, where Hop has been growing for many
centuries even on  my ancestoral family farm,
    I have travelled quite extesively in last fourty years and subsequently
tasted many a beer, but found few that mach the taste of Lasko Pivo, yes
some come close such one comes to mind as Cheski Pilzen.
Among others brands I have found to be superb are: Lowenbrau, Gosser Bier,
Schwehatter Brau the latter the latter two being more on the malty side.
There is definitely something to be said about the smell of the good beer in
the sommer, is it just me or can you smell hopf in beer even before you
drink it.
    I realize that all of this refers to commercially produced beers and I
am in no way advertizing any of them, merely present my preffered taste for
Hopf rich beer (which, again in my oppinion) contains less weight gain
ingredients. So I have experimented with those kits available at various
stores. Onea thing I tried to varie is adding Hopf to alegedly complete
contains. My procedure has been quite simple-primitive.
Boill tap water regardless of mineral content etc
Add in the Malt from the can
Add Dextrose in ammount prescribed, stirr ti'l dissolved
Add 1/4 of a teacup of dissolved Hopf (a savor in mine opinion)
Pour it all into primary container (in my case 30 gal. nylon pail)
Sprinkle on the suplied Yeast, stirr again
Replace cover-but not air tight
Leave it for 21 days and then siphone into bottles
I also add a teaspoon of dextrose to each bottle bottom
I start drinking it in another 3 weeks time.

I realize that many, if not all of you will just cringe in dissbelief, well
I stated on the onset, my method are crude and primitive-but- Ido get lucky
occasionaly.

My question to you the experienced brewers:
What could be the cause of the overvhelming yeast aftertaste in all but two
of the batches I've done so far.
I am about to do another batch of beer kit named Premier Reseerve Gold
1.5 kg.  Light Malt Extract produced by Premier Malt Products, Grosse Point,
MI.
I bought several of the cans as they were on sale and none have instructions
included, I am open to any creative suggestion as to it's use.
By the way,  I have difficulty obtaining Hopf pellets, seems the local do-it
yourself Brewery does not like to sell it, they want me to brewe it at their
premises (cost approx $100.00 CDN.) But my cost's tottal when done at home
is only $ 7.00 CDN.
You can expect a barage of questions from this rookie in the future:-)

Respectfully:

Anthony Divjak
Kelowna BC.




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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:12:13 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: lactose dosage

>What would you gifted sweet stout-makers out there recommend as the proper 
>amount of lactose (I have powder) to use in a recipe for a Mackeson's-like 
>stout (5 gals.)?  In the boil?  In the keg prior to force-carbonation and 
>bottling?  I tried to "RTFM", but the "FM" is sparse.  The old BT article 
>says little, and Prof. Lewis' book "Stout" has only one recipe that calls 
>for a KILO! at bottling.  It may be right... 
>Thomas J. O'Connor, III, M.D.
>Rockport, ME

Graham Wheeler in his clone recipe for the 2 Mackesons in his
book "Brew Classic European Beers At Home" has extrapolated
back and for 5 US Gallons: 1.05 lbs (1lb would be fine)
If you were after 5 Imp. Gallons:1.15lbs.
He suggests adding the lactose during the last half hour of the boil.

Brad


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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: erniebaker at webtv.net (ernest baker)
Subject: Stoudt's Festival

Again on August 7th, I will fly to Penna. to
visit the grandkids and attend "Stoudt's 8th Annual Great Eastern
Invitational Microbrewery Festival" in Adamstown PA. This is my third
trip and it is worth it. I'm looking for the web sites or addresses od
any BrewPubs in that area, we're talking about an area around Redding,
Lancaster, Gettysburg etc.  I've been to "Victory", "Yuengling" one in
Gettysburg and am looking for more to visit.  Any addresses from you
Brewers in that area would be appreciated. I'm leaving 29 Palms, Ca on 3
August....Tks Ernie Baker
29 Palms,CA
<erniebaker at webtv.net>








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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:28:26 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: re: cold vs cellar storage of ales 

In HBD #3072 Robin Griller writes:

<>

I believe the flavor impact on serving an ale cold stems more from the 
numbing of the taste buds and low amount of volatilization of the flavor 
components at low temperatures than any actual damage to the ale.  Allow the 
ale to warm up a bit, and the "seriously awful impact on the flavor" goes 
away.  Generally speaking, low temperatures slow reactions.  If anything, 
storage at low temperatures may not allow the ales to age, but I can't think 
of anything detrimental that will occur unless the low temperatures are 
introduced too soon in the process.

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:28:24 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Trub Removal

In a message dated Thu, 01 Jul 1999, Lee Bogardus writes:

<<Next item of concern was after chilling with immersion chiller, there
was a lot of coagulated grain matter suspended in kettle which didn't
settle to bottom like I hoped it would.  I know that this is caused by
the cold break but is there a way to adequately filter this when
transferring from kettle to primary fermenter ?  Regular strainer in
funnel didn't seem to help and I wanted to minimize the amount of trub
right off the bat.>>

Lee, this might seem somewhat sacrilegious, but my attitude towards trub 
fully embraces the RDWHAH philosophy.  I have been immersion chilling and 
straining into the fermenter for years.  I try to use hop plugs when ever 
possible to help with the filtration of the hot & cold break on the way to 
the fermenter.  I usually rack into secondary after a week (2 at the most) in 
primary.  I haven't had a problem with this technique and have even produced 
a few award winners.

If you are really concerned, there are a few options.  One is to stir the 
wort to create a whirlpool and then carefully siphon into the fermenter.  
Another is to put a santized stainless steel scrub pad on the inlet end of 
your siphon tube to act as a strainer as you siphon into the fermenter.  One 
of the homebrew books (Dave Miller I think) recommends transferring the 
cooled wort to a container, allow it to settle over night, siphon to a 
fermenter to leave the trub behind and then pitch the yeast.  To me that 
sounds like too much work and too much opportunity to worry about 
contamination.

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:28:27 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: 5l minkegs

In HBD #3072 Troy Kase <kasetroy at isu.edu> writes:

<<Specifically, I am wondering about the dispensing of the product.  I
have read about dispensing in these two different ways:
1.  Dispense 1-3 beers from the pressure built up from priming.  Then
attach the cartridge and only open the valve enough to dispense the beer
then close it again.  Then it goes on to say that your beer will go flat
if the cartridge is not left in.  It sounds like to me that if you turn
the valve off, leave the cartridge in, and the last beer drawn off used
up the pressure then your beer will go flat.

2.  Very similar to the above although keeping the valve slightly open
to retain carbonation between dispensing.  This one makes more sense,
though I know that it will use more CO2 than the other way.


I am very confused on how to use this and am thinking that I have made a
mistake by buying this product.  I would appreciate any input.>>

I have been using the 5l minikegs for a few years.  I use method #2.  If you 
have a good seal between the tap and the keg, CO2 use is minimal.

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:02:16 +0100
From: "Anthony Barnsley" <abarn at brewmaster.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Dr Pivo

Hear, Hear, Hear,

Somebody had to say it, Homebrewing is about practical brewing, and who
cares what the Commercial brewers do, the biggest one doesn't even make
decent beer. What works in our setups, works for us, and thats the bottom
line, even if the theory says that it shouldn't. (Just watch out for all
those bumblebees dropping from the skies when they read the aerodynamics
text books! :-> )

Keep it up,

Aleman, (Practical brewer, and Aspiring Dr. Pivo)

Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

ICQ 42073906

Reply to Aleman at brewmaster dot demon dot co dot uk





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Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:08:52 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: re. Sweet stout

In HBD #3074Thomas J. O'Connor, III, M.D. asks about lactose for a sweet
stout.  I brewed my first sweet stout recently and wish I had used less
lactose.  I added one lb. at bottling and the brew came out too sweet.
I mashed  at  158F, fermented with Wyeast 1728, hopped lightly (19 IBU's),
and used all chocolate for the roasted grain portion (no roasted/black
barley).  I think that given all of the above factors, 1/4 to 1/2 lb.
lactose would have been plenty.  Lower mash temps, a more attenuative
yeast, use of roasted or black barley, and increased hopping would
probably have made the beer less sweet.  Hope this helps.

BTW, good to see another physician brewer online.

Dean Fikar, M.D.
Rabid Brewer and Occaisional Practitioner of the Healing Arts in Ft.
Worth, TX




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Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:02:38 +0100
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: That Outrageous Sexist Photo

And Phil thinks he has troubles with the dishwasher in the pool!!!!!

My SO caught me gazing, grabbed my cat, began spinning it wildly 
about the room, hit me aside the head with it's head, splattered it 
all over the place, then with remaining tail in hand chased me from 
the house!


Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot.com)
Littleport, Ely, Cambridgeshire, UK


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Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:40:11 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: Re: Sexist photo and dishwashers 

Actually, I never really saw the article -- I let my Zymurgy
subscription drop with that seminal favorite "Wonderful World of
Bottle Openers" issue -- I was just trying to yank your chain. I mean,
c'mon -- surely she was fully clothed and not wearing a dog collar,
right? I mean, I certainly wouldn't approve of that. Unless it was
tastefully done of course. Or unless the photo was really an
allegorical depiction of the metabolic pathways used by wild yeast to
metabolize maltotetraose.  Then I'd approve, 'cause it would be art,
and I while I don't know art, I know what I like. But I digress...

>Here are a sampling of the responses I received for my comment on the
>housewife photo in the new Zymurgy. I think they are very
>dissapointing. How can we expect to get women interested in homebrewing
>if they are met with sexist photos in the leading magazine and sexist
>comments on-line?

Sorry to have let you down. I'm gonna work real hard now from now on
for your approval. Honest. But seriously, I would hazard a guess that
most of us around here are mainly interested in improving on our beer.
That, and defending the Secret Patriarchal Cabal of Brewing. I'm
pretty sure we also all oppose special priveleges for the club-footed,
and like to beat up guys without beards. That second to last one might
just be me. I dunno, I just feel so _scattered_ today...could I be
drunk?

> Wasn't it also strange that the very same
>magazine held an article about a successful businesswoman/brewer?

Strange indeed -- another sign that the SPCB's vigilance is obviously
slipping. Perhaps if we were just a more _membership driven_
organization, or changed our tax-exempt status... 

>Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but I thought these points needed
>to be made.

Well, you were obviously wrong, as I'm sure you can see now. And as
punishment, you must never, ever post here again unless you can work
the word "maltotetraose" into your post. (See first paragraph for an
example.) At least 5 times. Extra points for spelling it correctly all
5 times. 


On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:42:28 -0400, you wrote:
[trivial whining and unbelievable denials of PC motivation deleted --
insightful and thought-provoking responses included]
>
>mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)"Nah -- I thought she was kinda
>hot..."
>
>Bill_Rehm at DeluxeData.com  "Why can't people just lighten up!  It's just
>a picture in a magazine, I'm sure many women have used dishwashers!"
>
>I really hope that you were kidding. If not...just another thing for
>the hyper-politically correct crowd to get all worked up  about. I
>guess I could get just as upset everytime I see a commercial or
>advertisement for a male underneath his car changing his oil. Afterall,
>there must be a bunch of women in the world that change their own oil.
>More people need to follow Charlie P's view on life--RELAW, DON'T
>WORRY, HAVE A HOMEBREW!
>
>Kris,
>Pull down your PC sensitivity antenna and relax will ya?  Have a great
>4th!

***********************************
Go ahead ... try the sauce. The sauce is good. The sauce 
will make you YOUNG again...


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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:41:02 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Water Synthesis

Fred Johnson had some comments and a question on synthesis of brewing
water.

>Great efforts are often made to duplicate the water from various
>regions of the world in order to duplicate the famous beers made in
these
>regions. Typically the ion concentration of the water in the region of
>interest is cited as the appropriate water to use in brewing the beer
in
>question.

This is where the difficulty starts. To begin with I have 6 profiles
(obtained from various published sources) for Burton, 4 for Munich, 3
for Edinburgh and so on. Profiles from a particular city show a fair
amount of variation among them but generally exhibit some degree of
similarity. Of more interest is that if one examines these published ion
profiles it is quite clear that most of the waters one sees written up
never existed on the face of this earth (or in her bowels either). The
"examination" consists of adding up all the ionic positive and negative
charges and then asking "What pH would be required to render this water
electrically neutral?" The answer is often an absurdly high pH (9 -12)
from which I can only conclude that anions (bicarbonate, sulfate,
chloride) are consistently under reported. For example, the 4 Munich
profiles I have in hand report bicarbonate over the range of 75 - 109
mg/L. pH's of from 9.8 - 10.8 would be required to balance these
profiles. Surely the good burghers of Munchen would not require their
citizens to drink or brew with water at these pH levels (a sample of
Munich water I analyzed show a pH of about 7.5 and a bicarbonate content
of about 340 mg/L).

Confronted with multiple profiles for a city (let's stick with Munich as
an example) how does the brewer pick one? The easy answer is pick the
one with the best electrical balance (this is easier said than done for
those that aren't familiar with the computation technique). This will be
the one the brewer will be most closely able to emulate. Given the
normal variability one might expect within  a city's span of time
(seasonal and cyclical variations) and space (different wells, takeoff
at different places along a river, different reservoirs etc.) you aren't
going to get data on what the Spaten brewery took from the mains on a
particular day anyway nor is it really that important that you do.

>However, reproducing the brewing water is not simple since many
>of the salts are rather insoluble in water and therefore must be added
to
>the wort during the boil.

The only salts that are insoluble are magnesium and  calcium carbonates
and those can be  dissolved by sparging CO2 through the water with
stirring after addition of that salt. The formulation used must account
for the fact that the brewer is going to dissolve the carbonate in the
same way that mother nature did. Note that after the solution becomes
clear (i.e. all the carbonates are in solution) there will be an excess
of carbonic in the water and the pH will be quite low. Aeration or
allowing the water to stand will get the pH back to a reasonable number.
One may well ask why one should go to this trouble if the carbonate is
only going to precipitate out during the mash anyway and this is a fair
question. Consequently an approach is to weigh out all the salts
required to formulate the given ion profile, hold the carbonates aside
and then dissolve the other salts in deionized water and mash with it.
The carbonates are then added (to the mash). It's a good idea to add the
carbonates in portions checking the pH after each addition. Carbonate
addition can be stopped when the desired pH is reached even if not all
the calculated carbonate is used or,  conversely, if the desired pH is
not reached after all the carbonate has been added, additional
carbonates can be added until the desired pH is attained. Noting the
total amount of carbonate used will simplify things at subsequent
brewing sessions.

>The problem is that the ion concentrations in the
>wort after the boil are higher than the ion concentrations in the
starting
>water.

This may be true for trace ions such as zinc and copper (released from
malt) but with respect to calcium, magnesium and carbonate usually just
the opposite is the case. Subject to the heat of the mash/boil
bicarbonate converts to carbonate which coalesces with Ca++ and Mg++
and precipitates. Calcium (and to a lesser extent magnesium) also
precipitate out with phosphate from the malt. One of the goals of water
tuning is to be sure that there is enough calcium left over after these
precipitations to be in excess with respect to oxalate in the finished
beer so that calcium oxalate will precipitate leaving the beer bright.

>It seems apparent that if one is trying to duplicate the ion
concentrations
>of a beer from a particular region, one must know more than just the
ion
>concentrations of the water in the region of interest.

This is very true and what you need to know, given that you have
duplicated Munich water, is every detail of what the Munich brewer you
are trying to emulate does with his water. We do know, WRT Munich, that
the Dunkles brewer does nothing, relying on the dark malts in his grist,
to offset that whopping alkalinity. We also know that the Helles brewer
decarbonates his water. What we don't know are things like the details
of the the decarbonation process, the grain bill, the particulars of the
malts used or (as Fred mentions) the duration of the boil. All of these
would have to be duplicated precisely in order to reproduce exactly the
ion profile in the particular beer. But that isn't the goal of water
adjustment. It is only possible to get the ion profiles roughly right.
FIne tuning (and a precise match is not needed) must be done by the
brewer. The goals of water adjustment are two. First and foremost is
setting the calcium/magnesium level such that the correct mash pH gets
established. Second, is setting of the "stylistic ions" (sulfate and
chloride) levels for proper hops character and body/fullness.

>Ion concentrations in finished beers are
>rarely (never?) published and the degree the wort was reduced during
the
>boil of commercial beers is probably next to impossible to obtain.

Brewers do measure ion content in beer and some data are published in
texts like "Malting and Brewing Science".  Home brewers can easily
measure ion content in their water (though few seem to). In beer it's
more difficult because most of the simple tests rely on color change
which is masked in darker beers by the color of the beer itself. The
simple tests do work in some cases but for darker beers more dramatic
treatments such as vaporization in a flame (Atomic Absorption
Spectrophotometry) or Kjeldahl digestion (involves hot sulfuric acid),
after which the simple tests do work, are required. The ASBC has
published methods for Iron, Copper and Calcium in
beer.

With respect to the boiling example, if we assumed 10% reduction of
kettle volume and the number was really 20 then we'd be off by only 11%
in our calculation of ion concentration.

>What's a homebrewer to do about this?

I don't think that home brewers should be too concerned about exact
duplication of ion profiles either in the water or the beer.
Approximating the water with respect to carbonate to the extent that
proper mash pH is realized is sufficient with respect to alkalinity.
Keeping chloride and sulfate at level commensurate with desired flavor
and body are sufficient with respect to those ions. Thus, using Munich
Dunkles as an example, one might start with very soft water and add
calcium carbonate to the mash to the extent that mash pH is not lowered
too much by the dark malts. For a Helles, just use very soft water and
supplement with chalk in the mash as necessary to establish mash pH.
Once a workable water chemistry is arrived at the brewer then goes into
his fine tuning e.g. a little more calcium to lower mash pH a bit and
perhaps increase conversion or a little more chloride to enhance mouth
feel.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:00:02 -0400
From: imac <kinsman at glinx.com>
Subject: Scared  Brewer

I have recently decided to start brewing larger batches of beer  due to
a demand from friends  who are too lazy to do it them selves.  I am
happy to oblige but I am now in need of a larger brewery.  In my quest
for cheap equipment, I happened across the RCB equipment site.(no
affiliation yada yada)  I saw the 50U.S. gal drums and was instantly in
love.  As you have probably guessed, there is a catch.  They originally
contained benzene.  As soon as I found that out I became very
concerned.  Their rep.(RCB's) assured me that they were completely
usable because the stainless would not be etched by the solvent and that
they had sold many of them for brew kettles.  I spent hours reading
about the health dangers of benzene and worked myself into quite a
lather.  Can any of the highly educated brewers out there convince me
that this drum can indeed be made safe for use in the brewing process?
I and my lush friends would greatly appreciate any assistance.
 Thanks for the collective ear.
Randy Kinsman
Crow Farm Basement Brewery.
Cambridge
Nova Scotia
Canada
kinsman at glinx.com




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Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 20:07:46 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: re. Sexist photo/PC/Car oil change

Kris G. Mueller is upset at the picture of a woman tending to a
dishwasher in the context of an  article on sterilizing beer bottles in
the dishwasher.  She (he?) thinks we should get more women interested in
homebrewing, and I agree.  So if all of the pictures in Zymurgy were of
men brewing, cleaning bottles, etc. wouldn't she (he?) be ticked off?  I
guess, though, if we were to have a picture of a woman changing car oil
we're OK, no?  Looks like PC is alive and well wherever Kris hangs out.

Kris, you might also want to reconsider quoting private email in a
public forum if you don't want to get sued in this tort-crazed country
of ours.

Cheers,
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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