---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Zymurgy: offensensitivity, etc. (Dick Dunn)
  Much ado about nothing (KMacneal)
  re: scared brewer (Matthew Comstock)
  Where have all the Pivos Gone ? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Who care; we should; not always ("Alan McKay")
  benzene (Jim Liddil)
  Brewchicks, NOT !! , plus an actual brew type question (Sandra L Cockerham)
  of whiney victimhood ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  RE: Benzene drums - don't do it! ("James Machin")
  old Wieland beer bottle (Wielandbj)
  Low FG - Lack of Bottle Condition Carbonation (woodsj)
  Home brew ("Clyde W. Burns")
  Easy Brewer (Pat Babcock)
  hats off to Jethro - again (Laurel Maney)
  the *perfect* Berliner Weiss (ha, ha) (Marc Sedam)
  Attention Michigan Home Brewers (Pat Babcock)
  to Jeffrey M. Kenton ("Dr. Pivo")
  A somewhat novel mashing system (Jim & Paula Adwell)
  Chicago HB Shops (Jeffrey_Tonole/CA/americancentury)
  Pivo's questions (Michael Rose)
  michiganders and other yankees? (Bret Morrow)
  more on measuring fermentation (Petr Otahal)
  So much brewing to do, yet so little time.... (Michael Kowalczyk)
  Ball valves: 3/8 or 1/2-inch? (Harlan Bauer)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 6 Jul 99 23:32:05 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Zymurgy: offensensitivity, etc.

Re the now-infamous dishwasher picture:  Anybody offended by that is in
acute need of a scapular chipectomy, a humor implant, a short lesson in
American culture, and a long look at the dictionary definition of the word
"lampoon".  In other words:  "exceptionally dense" is not the same as
"particularly sensitive".

As to the more substantive concerns about the Sperazza article:  I think
that many, if not most, of the concerns about bad information "on the
Internet" (which itself is bad since it's a nearly meaningless phrase,
failing as it does to distinguish between USENET, chat rooms, mailing
lists, and the Web, but I digress...) are at least based in reality.
There's an incredible amount of crap out there when there's no editorial
control.

For example, I try to follow r.c.b, from the viewpoint of a very experi-
enced meadmaker, but I've stopped posting because the majority of what's
posted about mead is so far wrong you can't even begin to correct it.
People are still parroting CP's bum advice about priming with honey, and
even embellishing it, to where you'll see advice to prime a 5-gal batch
with more than a cup of honey!  [Right now: DO NOT!  It's dangerous!]
People with little knowledge and less experience are posting advice which
may leave a trusting/gullible fellow brewer blind or maimed.  It's hard to
come up with a charitable take on that sort of blunder.  Nobody seems to
grasp the concept that if you don't know what you're talking about, you
should shut up and learn.

The HBD is at least competent, and moreover it's self-policing.  But it
does suffer from a few overbearing folks who try to impress others and end
up hurting the hobby/craft.  At least dangerous suggestions don't go long
unchallenged.

After all that, one of the points in the Sperazza article that really
offended me was a quote from Judi Rudd, "...When you have to go to
someone's garage for a can of extract it's almost like buying a watch off
a guy on the street..."  Well, dammit, I have gone to someone's garage for
malt extract.  That someone was Colonel John, one of the earliest and most
interesting faces I met in homebrewing in Boulder.  (John contributed to
Zymurgy and the AHA from the early days--see his picture on the cover of
Summer, 1981 [Vol 4 No 2].  John was one of the really important but self-
less people who made it happen.)  He ran his shop out of his home; he kept
some supplies in the basement and others in the garage.  I don't see any-
thing wrong with that; what offends me is the idea that if you don't have a
proper storefront in a proper yuppie mall, you're somehow on a lower tier
in the homebrew-supply hierarchy.  I think a garage-shop is a perfectly
valid, in fact splendidly American, way to do business.  And for what it's
worth, I learned as much about homebrewing from Col John as from anyone
else I've dealt with, because he was always there to talk to anyone, so 
he became a conduit from everybody to everybody else.  That made home-
brewing work in the early '80's; if it becomes valid again in the late
'90's it's fine with me regardless of what the yuppie view says.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.


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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:40:21 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Much ado about nothing

After the things being said in here about Zymurgy Vol. 22 No. 4, I just had 
to see what it was all about.  

The "sexist" picture in the article on dishwasher sanitation looked like a 
clip from "Leave it to Beaver" (and as someone said, in the same issue as an 
article entitled "It's a Man's World - Not" about brewer Carol Stoudt, and 
following an issue containing an article about women's roles in Scottish 
brewing).  Me thinkst thou dost protest too much.

Then there was Papazian's comments in an article on the decline of 
homebrewing.  

Gerry Blalak asks:
 
>  Am I the only one who read a condemnation for the HBD, 
> rec.crafts.brewing, The Brewery and all the other pages and forums we hold 
so 
> dear (and, by association, ALL OF US) in the quotes from Heller and 
Papazian 
> in Sperazza's article swiped from Great Lakes Brewing News to fill the 
pages 
> of the otherwise dying Zymurgy?!?

Here's Papazian's quote from the article:  "Many of the forums that have 
developed are very sophisticated.  So whoever is involved in this hobby, 
whether you're in business on the Web, a retailer or brew club member...if 
you want the club or shop or business to survive you need to think about 
bringing that new energy in.  Sure, we want to continue to improve our own 
beers, but not by being so evangelical about how 'The right way to brew is my 
way.'  The right way to do it is the fun way. It doesn't matter whether it's 
all-grain or extract.  Eighteen years ago it was 98% extract beer and we had 
a hell of a good time."

Sorry, Gerry, but I don't see a condemnation.  I see some constructive 
criticism and a genuine compliment.

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: scared brewer

Residual benzene in a metal drum?  Set the drum out in the hot sun for
a few days.  It'll be gone.  Worried?  Run a blowtorch over the entire
inside surface.  It'll burn off.

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:04:41 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Where have all the Pivos Gone ?

I disagree with Dr.Pivo's parting shots but that's water under the bridge.
Jeff Irvine aka Dr.Pivo posted a lot of interesting and thought provoking
material with style and humor over the years - and his contributions will be
missed.

 ...but.then Phil Yates writes ...
>[...] there was a flurry of posts that gleefully were
>addressed to Dr Pivo by his proper name, as though such discovery was a
>major coup for those involved. This pathetic attempt to ridicule the man
[...]

Phil is referring to independent posts by me and G.DePiro in HBD 3045/3046.
Jeff Irvine posted using his real name as recently as 1997, using it was to
convey  reality not ridicule.  No coup, No discovery, No glee.  Titles have
little place in a discussion of ideas, as I'm sure Jeff would agree.  Jeff
wasn't attempting to deceive, but the pseudonym he used carried undeserved
authority, even unconsciously,  in a technical discussion. I could have
called him "Pivo", but that really is ridiculous when his name is no secret.

Phil, taking offense when I call another party by his proper name
demonstrates a real spirit of whiney victimhood.  Are you sure you're an
Aussie ?  I defy you to demonstrate ridicule in my post to Jeff.

As far as ridicule goes, go back and read Jeff's blast against George, or
ask why Jeff mischaracterizes people with differing opinions as "dogmatic"
and "librarians" - even calling into question the beers such people make
tho' he has never tasted any.  Also he claims superiority by using
"experience", yet dismisses the experience of others.  That is ridicule -
and illogical.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:34:41 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Who care; we should; not always

Though I do agree that we can sometimes benefit from what
the Big Boys are doing, I think as well that the point should
be well taken that not everything the Big Boys do can be applied
to what we do on a small scale.  Remember that the goals of such
a large BUSINESS are often completely different from the goals
of a homebrewer.  Different goals require different methods.

I think someone who blindly recites the dogma from the Big Boys
without ever giving a second thought to whether or  not it's
really applicable on such a small scale, is not seeing the big
picture - or the small picture, as the case may be.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:49:12 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: benzene

Since I play a toxicologist in real life I thought I could provide some
insite.  First of all benzene is volatile.  My CRC is in a box somewhere,
but I bet you can just leave the drum in the sun for a day or so. (I assume
the top is open or you will be cutting ti off).  You can simply clean the
drum with a big brush and some deetergent to get the majority of stuff out
of the drum.  Basically you are worrying about something that is relatively
low on the hazard scale.  You drink and if you look at a GC fro beer you
see all kinds of aldehydes ketones etc.  Do you eat meat?  Are all the
animals free range, antibiotic free?  Do you eat peanuts?  Can you say
aflatoxin? Everything is toxic it's just a matter of dose and exposure.
Water for example. :-)

Dr Pivo mentioned how the hbd  etc can be a great source of info.  At one
time I did a bunch of experiments on wyeast (see the lambic digest
archives) but after my experience I tend to keep the experimental info to
a small group of folks.  But this does not mean things can't be done.  I
for one suggest the Clinitest protocol be made available for review by the
whole group.  I for one think that the protocol as it now stands is really
ill concieved.  

The web and e-mail are part of many hobbies these days.  The AHA was sort
of participating on compuserve when I started brewing.  The web can be
daunting wrt any subject.  I for one see computers as jsut another tool.
The HBD has been around for over 10 years and is searchable etc.  Since
when has the AHA set up such a tool for searching all the past zymurgies or
new brewers.  I know that budget limitations prevented this from occuring
to some extent.  But I personally see this as an excuse for not getting on
the stick.  Look at the realbeer page as another example of what can be
done.  Budget restraints are going to kill zymurgy imho.  Lately it is full
of reprints from books etc.  This issue has the reprinted article and the
tao of brewing article is a reprint from the book that is being published.
And zymurgy used to make attempts to get things editted.  Anyone who has
editted zymurgy int he past knows that Surfeit is editted prior to being
published.  

Jim Liddil       North Haven ,CT




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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:18:47 -0500
From: Sandra L Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at Lilly.com>
Subject: Brewchicks, NOT !! , plus an actual brew type question




OK, lets not start a gender war here.  I, as a woman brewer (and a darned good
one at that,) don't
appreciate that term.  Yes, women were traditionally the brewers but that was
more or less "taken away."
I don't brew because I am trying to "claim some lost heritage" but because its
FUN, ( and I really like those
big hoppy beers that cost me an arm and a leg to buy !)
So Mr. Fouch, straighten out the kink in your brewery hose and lets get back
to some "serious brew talk".

Real beer type question,,, I just remodeled my kitchen and moved my old fridge
to the basement to make
a great keg cooling space !  Has anyone found any good gaskets made to plug
the hole I intend to drill in
the side of the old Kenmore to put the CO(subscript: 2) line through ?  I have
seen duct tape used, but I would like something
"more finished."   Please post answers here as others might find the same
gadget useful !

Thanks!
Good luck and good beer !
Sandy C.




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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:33:40 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: of whiney victimhood

Dear Mr "S",
               Sorry I am a bit short of time, will be happy to deal with
you in a couple of days when I get home. Yes Steve, born here and live here,
just what are you suggesting?

Phil.



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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:53:24 -0500
From: "James Machin" <jmachin at rjbco.com>
Subject: RE: Benzene drums - don't do it!


Randy Kinsman is worried about residual benzene in used SS drums.
David Whitman suggested a water boiling procedure.

I do not recommend using any container that contained benzene or gasoline
(which can contain up to about 5% benzene)for holding boiling wort or any
other item to be consumed by humans, regardless of how you clean it.
Benzene is a known carcinogen.  The maximum contaminant level established
by EPA for benzene in drinking water is 5 parts per billion.  That is the
equivalent of one ten-thousandth of a milliliter in 5 gallons.  The
solubility of benzene in water is about 1,800,000 parts per billion.

You can make whatever argument you want about the small dosage you might
receive in the beer.  But the bottom line is that benzene is just about the
worst actor we look at in drinking water (I am in the environmental
business), and I don't know if I would avoid it like the plague, or worse
than the plague.

James Machin, P.E.





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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:58:21 EDT
From: Wielandbj at aol.com
Subject: old Wieland beer bottle

My husband is related to the John Wieland that established a brewery in CA 
(Sacramento or San Francisco, I think) in the 1800s.  Does anyone know where 
I might get a beer bottle from that brewery?  Please respond privately.  TIA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:10:50 -0400
From: woodsj at us.ibm.com
Subject: Low FG - Lack of Bottle Condition Carbonation



Hello fellow brewsters.....got a problem with a wheat beer that was bottled
approx. 4 weeks ago.  Made a summer wheat (lawnmower beer) that all
seemed well....OG = 1.042, but the finished gravity was 1.004.  Fermented
in approx. 5 days, very quick.  This is a lower FG than any other brew I've
ever made.  Bottled with 1.25 cups of dried extract.  Usually I use .75 cups
priming sugar but used DME this time to see if there was a difference.
After almost 4 weeks in the bottle there is very little to no carbonation.
I think I stirred the finished beer very well and bottles have been conditioning
in the basement at 66-70 degrees constant temperature.  I've tried both
refrigerated bottles and room temperature, the room temp had a normal
head that disappeared in seconds and the beer tasted flat.  Also the beer,
as you can imagine, tastes thin.  BTW, wheat's are not my favorite and was
made with intentions of giving most of it away.  It wouldn't bother me to toss
the batch if it wouldn't offend the beer gods.

What to do ???  Could it be that with an FG of 1.004 there was no sugar left
to condition the added priming sugar for normal carbonation levels ?  Are
there any remedies ?  Just be patient longer ?  In the past I've turned bottles
over and roused the sediment on the bottom, left it for a week and it seemed
to condition fine.

I don't normally bottle and this (to me) is another strong argument in favor of
kegging.  I also used spellcheck before sending..........

Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA




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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:36:49 -0500
From: "Clyde W. Burns" <cpburns at lcc.net>
Subject: Home brew

I realize this might be the wrong place to ask for help, but maybe someone
out there can help me. As far back as I can remember my father made home
brew, for sale and for his own consumption.
  It was not too complicated, I believe he used yeast, sugar, a can of Blue
Ribbon Malt, and 5 gallons of water. In the summer it only seemed like it
took three or four days for it to be ready for capping.
  I would like to try the same thing before I buy any sophisticated
equipment. Is there anyone, or some publication that could help me?
Yours truly
Clyde W. Burns
cpburns at lcc.net



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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:17:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Easy Brewer

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Clyde W. Burns asks...

> I realize this might be the wrong place to ask for help, but maybe someone
> out there can help me. As far back as I can remember my father made home
> brew, for sale and for his own consumption.
>   It was not too complicated, I believe he used yeast, sugar, a can of Blue
> Ribbon Malt, and 5 gallons of water. In the summer it only seemed like it
> took three or four days for it to be ready for capping.
>   I would like to try the same thing before I buy any sophisticated
> equipment. Is there anyone, or some publication that could help me?

In answer to a similar post from 2/96:

Imanol asks about making beer in his country...

> If someone can help me telling the first things i have to do,thank
> you. The level of the digest is very high, maybe i must go to other
> list.If you think that i have to go tell me and i unsuscribe.

First, locate a source for malt extract or malted grains, yeast, and
some hops. Some extracts already contain hops. Those are fine, too.
There's no point doing much else until you can determine where you
can get the base ingredients. 

Next, locate a source for suitable bottles and caps. Brown glass
with crown caps (and a capper) are preferable, but anything that
once held a CARBONATED beverage should do fine.

When you find sources,  get about 4.5 pounds of light or amber DRY
malt extract or about 5 pounds of LIQUID malt extract; about a cup of
corn sugar, and about 2.5 ounces of hops. Hallertau is preferred for
this simple recipe, but  we're only interested in getting you
started, so we won't be picky. The beer will be great.

Boil up about 1.5 to 2 gallons of water, take it off the heat, and
add the extracts. Mix thoroughly. Return to heat and boil for
fifteen minutes or so with the lid off. Add an ounce of your hops.
Boil for another fifteen minutes. Toss in another ounce of hops; boil
for another fifteen minutes. Toss in the remaining half ounce of
hops, put your cover on the pot, and take the pot off the heat. Set
the pot into a sink or tub full of COLD water.  Swirl it around every
once in a while and cool it to as close to 70 deg F as you can bear
waiting for. Definitely not hotter than 80, though!

Put two gallons of cool water into your fermenter. The fermenter will
be a vessel capable of holding at least five gallons. Glass
water cooler jugs are ideal, but anything that held food or drink is
ok. Make sure it is clean. Sanitize it with boiling water or a bleach
solution before using it. I also recommend that you boil about four
gallons of water the night prior to your brewing for use in diluting
your concentrated wort (extract and water).

Now, pour your cooled mixture into the fermenter. Mix it up with a
clean, sanitized spoon, or shake the covered fermenter. This is to
both mix and aerate the contents. Top up to the five gallon mark with
more water.

Add your yeast, and cover the fermenter. Feel free to peek in on it
from time to time to see the yeast's activity. Should be about done
fermenting within two weeks.

At this time, add 1/2 to 3/4 cups of corn sugar to about a pint of
water, mix and boil for about 15 minutes. Let this cool, then put it
into a clean, sanitized container similar in size to your fermenter.
Siphon your beer onto this solution. Use clean and sanitized vinyl
hose to siphon. Try to stop siphoning before you begin sucking up the
sediment from the bottom of your fermenter. (A little won't hurt.)

Siphon this mixture to your sanitized bottles, one at a time. Leave
about an inch to an inch-and-a-half of empty space at the top of
each bottle.  Cap them, let them sit for a couple weeks, chill, and
enjoy!

If you can locate no extract but can locate grains, report back to
the HBD, and we'll tell you what to do...

- ---------------

Couple of clarifications are in order:

* Based on your specific request, table sugar is OK, but I think the corn
  sugar will yield a cleaner taste.
* Be sure that whatever you cover the fermenter with will let the pressure
  out (ie a towel, celophane, or a lid fitted with air-lock)

Hope that helps ya!

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 12:32:56 -0500
From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com>
Subject: hats off to Jethro - again

I've been catching up on a week's worth of HBD and just want to
congratulate Rob Moline on the Lallemand-Siebel scholarship - what a
coup!  The stipend for living expenses makes it really practical, and it
will be a great experience.

The other thing I like about it is that it Siebel has been a major
player in bridging the gap between large commecial breweries and the
craft beer segment of othe industry.  (On a local level, this has been
on my agenda for the last seven years, as an officer of MBAA-District
Milwaukee.)   Now by reaching into the homebrew community, Siebel can
help link together the whole spectrum of dedicated brewers.

BTW, on another topic, thanks to Rob, Steve Potter, and to Wayne
Majerowski for their kind words about the MATC Brewing Program.  And
thanks to everyone in Kansas City for a great time at the AHA Conference
 - what a lot of work and what nice results!

Laurel Maney
President, MBAA-District Milwaukee
Instructor, Brewing Program
Milwaukee Area Technical College



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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:37:21 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: the *perfect* Berliner Weiss (ha, ha)

I was surprised at the number of e-mails asking for more
information on how to brew a Berliner-style weissbier.  After
re-reading my sleep-deprived posts from Wednesday's HBD, I
thought I'd summarize my experiences with 20/20 hindsight and a
little research.  For the record, I used Eric Warner's "German
Wheat Beers", Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers", and a recent
BT "Brewing in Styles" article [Jan/Feb] by Florian Kuplent, and
my own experience as sources.  So here goes...

Grist:  50/50 mix of barley and wheat.  I used 2-row DWC pilsener
malt and DWC wheat malt.  Start off with 3.5lbs of each for 5
gallons.  If your extraction is too good, you just wind up with
more beer.  That would be too bad. <grin>

Brewing liquor:  I used my very soft tap [40ppm] water as-is.
The literature suggests that you boil WHOLE hops (at 1.3-1.5oz/5
gallons of finished beer) in the mash water for an hour, then
cool.  As previously stated, pellets are not an acceptable
alternative and will only cause more problems in the
lauter/sparge.  The whole hops help in lautering.  It is also
acceptable to add a small amount of calcium carbonate at
mash-in.  Not necessary, but it won't hurt either.

Mash:  I mashed in with a ratio of 1.25qt/lb.  This made for a
very viscous mash.  It is suggested that the mash ratio be
3-3.5qt/lb.  One-third of the total mash liquor (sans hops) is
added at dough in.  The dough in temp should be 99F and held for
between 30 minutes and 5 hours (!!!).  The latter value is from a
19th century recipe, but I'm sure it leads to a good level of
sourness.  Next, add remaining 2/3 of the water (with hops) to
reach the protein rests of 117F (15min), 122F (15min), and 128F
(15min).  I fully, wholly, and unequivocally recommend a
decoction for the temperature rise from 128F to 148F to help
break down the highly viscous components in the mash and improve
lautering.  Pull a thick decoction and boil for 40 minutes (if
you do a double decoction you only need to boil each decoction
for 20 minutes).  Add back and hold for 20 minutes.  Raise the
temperature to 156F (via heat or decoction, your choice) and hold
for between 30 minutes and five hours. [Explanation:  If you have
held the mash for 5 hours at dough-in, hold for 30 minutes.  IF
you plan to inoculate the wort with lactobacilli, hold for 30
minutes.  If you want to get the sourness "naturally" from the
malt, hold at temperature for five hours to let the mash sour--it
works.]  There is no raise to mash-out temps.

Sparge:  You can use one of two methods:  (1) sparge with water
at 170F to bring the temperature of the mash up slightly; (2)
sparge with boiling water [yes, you read right] to help stop
lactobacilli growth.  As mentioned in a previous post, be sure to
cut the mash frequently to avoid channeling.  The decoction and
hops should help loosen the mash some, but begin runoff very
slowly.  Stuck mashes are much more frequent with this grist than
even a 65/35 barley/wheat ratio, especially if you use choice #1
and have a more viscous runoff.  The OG of the wort should be
between 1.028-1.032.  In Germany a wort of this gravity (for tax
purposes) is called a schankbier.  Dilute to reach the
appropriate gravity, if necessary.  Mash efficiency will be low
(65-75%), but the decoctions should help some.

Boil:  More appropriately, don't.  If you plan to inoculate with
lactobacilli, cool the wort down and pitch the culture when it
hits 95F.  Let cool naturally and sour over the next 24-48
hours.  When the desired sourness is reached (requires daily
tastings...sorry), bring the wort to a boil for 10 minutes, or
hold at 190F for an hour.  Chill back to pitching temps and pitch
a VERY healthy starter (cell counts akin to a lager).
Alternately, I simply cooled the wort down to 130F and let it
cool to yeast pitching temps by placing it in a 60F chest
freezer.  The additional time spent in the "spoilage" temps
caused a perceivable souring.  Once it reached 64F, I pitched the
yeast.

Yeast:  I used a fresh culture from a bottle of Weeping Radish
Weizen (very good, by the way), and no, you're not supposed to
use this yeast.  However, it was while drinking the weizen that I
thought a sour flavor on top of everything else would make a
refreshing beer, hence the foray into Berliner-style weiss.  More
traditional yeasts would be German ale yeast (Wyeast 1007) or any
other neutral ale yeast.  I imagine even the Chico yeast (Wyeast
1056) would work, as would the German wheat yeast (Wyeast 3333).
If you skim the yeast off the top during kraeusen it will help
limit continued souring of the beer as much of the lactobacilli
will rise to the top (so sayeth the literature...I haven't
experienced this yet).

Carbonation:  As part of it's nature the finished beer is served
with between 3-4 volumes of CO2.  Yep, that's a lot.  For
bottling purposes, I'd guess at 1 cup of corn sugar (2 cups
extract) in 5 gallons.  Beware of gushers here.

Aging:  Age for three weeks (or until the sourness is acceptable)
in warm temps (60-75F), then store at 40-45F for extended
periods.  If stored warm over time, the sourness will increase to
the point of unpleasantness and you may [no proof here] get
exploding bottles.   This is one beer that should be stored
cold.  It is reported to age well for periods in excess of two
years.  Warner says that the flavor profile marries well at 18
months.  I won't wait that long.

I hope this helps those that are already interested in the style,
and causes others to get more interested.  I'm already planning
another batch with different parameters.  Prost!

Marc Sedam
"Huisbrouwerij Zuytdam"...it means the Sedam Homebrewery for
those curious



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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Attention Michigan Home Brewers

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I apologize for this somewhat regional post, but, as most now know, the
2000 AHA NHC is slated for the Metro Detroit Michigan area. A group is
forming, led by Rex Halfpenny, to organize and coordinate this event. The
successful execution of the 2000 AHA NHC will depend on the concerted
efforts of MANY volunteers from across the state (and anywhere else said
volunteers wish to come from...). 

To assist in communicating with all volunteers (having e-mail), a mailing
list has been created. By this post, I'm asking all those from Michigan
and environs who wish to assist in the execution of the 2000 AHA NHC to
subscribe to this list by sending the word "subscribe" (without the
quotes) in the BODY of an e-mail note to michigan-request@hbd.org.

I now return you to your normally-scheduled, beer and brewing-related
discussion.

Thank you.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:31:02 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: to Jeffrey M. Kenton

Tried your email address, got "Invalid domain, MX nor A record not
found"

could be my crappy computer skills.

write me direct instead.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 19:49:49 -0400
From: Jim & Paula Adwell <jimala at servtech.com>
Subject: A somewhat novel mashing system

If anyone cares to take a peek, I have a webpage or two about my hot water
circulating mash system, in which hot water is circulated through a coil of
copper tubing in the mash tun, rather than pumping the mash through a
heater.  I built it because I wanted more control over mashing temperatures
than a non-heated or flame-heated system, and I didn't want to spend a lot
of money on a RIMS or the like.  I am very pleased with the results: my
mash efficiency has gone up, and my brewing time has been cut to 4 hours or
so, from 6+.  It's also simple and easy to use.  The URL is:

http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/

Questions, comments and suggestions are always welcome, and encouraged.

Cheers, Jim
Jim & Paula Adwell
jimala at ptdprolog.net
jimala at servtech.com
jimala at apical.com
adwell at uno.cc.geneseo.edu
http://www.servtech.com/public/jimala/


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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:01:57 -0700
From: Jeffrey_Tonole/CA/americancentury at americancentury.com
Subject: Chicago HB Shops



Gravity (specific?) is pulling me toward the center of the
HBD universe...

In a couple of weeks, I'm moving from the San Francisco
Bay Area to Chicago (my SO got a job at the U. of Chicago).
I would like to ask those of you who live in Chicagoland
to tell me about your favorite supply shop in the area and
why you like it (lots of variety, knowledgeable people,
always have what you need, etc.).

I found a few places listed on the web, but it's hard to get
an idea of what they're like. There's nothing like a
testimonial from a satisfied customer.

I'll be living in Hyde Park, but the shop doesn't need to be
near there. I'm willing to drive a little ways if the shop is a
good one.

Private e-mail would be best; the address below will stay
the same even after the move. Thanks in advance for the
time and bandwidth.

jeff tonole
SlothBrew
Menlo Park, CA (for two more weeks)
jyt at americancentury.com

"I don't make beer, I try to be a catalyst that allows a fine
beer to be made."
                                            -- Kirk Fleming




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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 19:12:41 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Pivo's questions

Someone wrote

> Dr. Pivo, I would like you to email me personally at this address to answer
> a few quick questions about making "true-to-style" czech pilseners.
>

I, as many others, would like to see this info also. Any chance that this could
be posted on the HBD?
                            Thanks from all the pilsener brewers,
                                            Mike Rose    mrose at ucr.campuscw.net



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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:14:42 -0400
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at yale.edu>
Subject: michiganders and other yankees?

St. Pat's wrote:

            I'm curious about the water temp and associated
            cooling rates for you michiganders and other yankees.

What!  People from Michigan are not Yankees.  In fact, I don't even
consider people born in CT to be Yankees.  Maybe, Chris in Dover, NH or
Paul in Vermont, but not Michigan.  Heck, I was born in western PA, and
there is no way I would consider myself a Yankee.  I really thought it
was just a couple of counties in Maine where the natives are true Yanks.

By the by, brewing this weekend.  A bitter of sorts, anyone try unmalted
barley pearls (cooked) to get a killer head?

Well, I feel much better now, Thanks

Bret Morrow in greater New Haven, CT---I guess that makes me a
 ..........?



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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:46:49 +1000 (EST)
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: more on measuring fermentation


Had some thoughts about Steve Alexander's post about measuring fermentation
rate.

I noticed that he states there is good agreement that the CO2 produced
(evolved and dissolved) and a drop and SG, and increase in alcohol. 
Using this I think that it would be possible to measure the rate in a very
simplistic but effective way.

The things that would be required are:
A closed system in which CO2 could be collected - possibly one of the more
difficult things to achieve. (See diagram below)
Constant temperate - quite possible.
Constant stirring of the fermenting beer - Im assuming this should keep the
dissolved CO2 at a constant rate?? (Not 100% on that).
               
              
             /=============\             _______
             ||           ||            /  CO2  \
          _ /  \_         ||            |_______|
        /%%%%%%%%%\       ||            |       |
       |%%%%%%%%%%%|      ||            |   0   |graduated measuring 
       |%%%%%%%%%%%|      ||            |       | cylinder (I realise this
       |           |      ||            |   O   |  would need to be very
       |           |      ||            |       |   large)
       | fermenting|      ||            |   o   |
       |   wort    |      ||            |   ||  |  
       |           |      ||        |---|---||--|----|  
       |           |      \=========|========/  water|  
       |____o-o____|                |________________|

        stirring bar

A picture is worth a thousand words so I guess Im saving quite a bit of
space. As for measuring the rate Im sure you can all figure that out!

Just my thoughts

Pete




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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:52:32 -0700
From: Michael Kowalczyk <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: So much brewing to do, yet so little time....

I posted the "my mashmixer experience" question and got lots of info.  Thanks
everyone.  It'll take a few months before I change my system, so for now I'm
stirring by hand (boooo).   I'm not afraid of wiring motors anymore, and the
experiences that were shared showed me that if I get a replacement motor (I
fried mine) that has a lot of torque and  RPMs between 20 and 40, I'll be ok.
 The range is pretty wide, so if I hang out at AMerican Science and Surplus
I'm sure I'll find a cheap one.

My system does use a false bottom.  There was a small debate about scorching.
 I should have scorched the hell out of my mash with the mashmixer fiasco,
but when I tasted the wort at pitching, it tasted fine.  My question is about
scorching.  Is it something that you just know you do immediately? Like when
celophane catches on fire.  Oh boy you know you fd up.  Or in cooking, I hate
burning garlic then using it in the dish.  You can just taste it - there's no
denying the taste of burnt garlic.  Is it like that?  Or is the taste subtle,
like diacetyl?  Some people can tate it strongly, some can't.  I'm curious. 
I'll be racking tomorrow and tasting.  Anything I should look for?  I'll let
you know that I have a VERY untrained pallate, so please talk to me like I'm
a 6 year old.

It's totally cool to have a 3 tier system.  I just gotta say. Only cost me a
few hundred bucks.  I started my website describing my brewery, but it has no
pictures, is incomplete, and has the spelling of a 3rd grader.  I have about
5 hours of tweaking to do.  So I will probably have it done by October..... 

"Brewers are Gods way of saying thank you" - I just made that up.




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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:51:15 -0500
From: Harlan Bauer <blacksab at midwest.net>
Subject: Ball valves: 3/8 or 1/2-inch?

Gee, I hate to dissagree with Steve Alexander, but I'd opt for the
1/2-inch ball valve. Why? Clean in place (CIP). Therefore, build for the
greatest load.

Homebrewed CIP is really easy--a sprayball can be made out of soldered
copper fittings (stock reducers), and I assume at this level one has a
pump, so why not use it to advantage? A counterflow HE needs to be
cleaned, so add that into the recirculation loop as well...you get the
idea. 

And if you haven't tried Bru-R-EZ or PBW, even for hand scrubbing, you
don't know what you're missing...

TTYL,
Harlan.


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