---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  The loss of the last good man. ("Grow, Roger H")
  brian rezac and the aha (JPullum127)
  brew pub suggestions (Mark Tumarkin)
  Stout Season (hal)
  Malt sandwiches (Randy Ricchi)
  Fools and dying organizations... ("Timothy Green")
  hop utilization by style ("glyn crossno")
  Re:Re:Newbies for breakfast? (ThomasM923)
  Glycol/Tips (AJ)
  BYO Magazine (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  Is it Phil, or is it Jill? ("Alan McKay")
  your AHA renewal ("Alan McKay")
  basements and beer (Marc Sedam)
  Mills (Dan Listermann)
  Brian Rezac and Paul Gatza's explanation (Jeff Pursley)
  re: Glycol? (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands (John_E_Schnupp)
  Cold room & glycol (fridge)
  Long Serving Lines,apology (Dave Burley)
  Replies on Ring Burner Search ("SCHNEIDER,BRETT")
  Squirting and rapping ("Christopher Farley")
  AHA & Brian Rezac (Gary D Hipple)
  Doctor in the Dictionary & a mild ale (Joe Perrigoue)
  CO2 Charts / Seattle Brews / Skunky Boil? (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
  Re: Ring Burners Needed (Dan Jeska)
  Ring Burner Elements ("Poirier, Bob")
  RE: Glycol ("BeerLvr")
  RE: Ring Burners Needed ("BeerLvr")
  Refrigerated Yeast (James Scott Johnson)
  oak barrels ("Mike Kauffman")
  AOB Explanation (Peter Owings)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:20:10 -0600
From: "Grow, Roger H" <GrowRH at LOUISVILLE.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: The loss of the last good man.

Yes, they did it. No matter what they print in defense, the AHA sacked the
only employee who gave a shit about the members. I'm sure Paul or Chuck or
maybe even Bob if he pops his little weasel head up long enough to care,
will write a condescending little reply to the public posts on the HBD and
rationalize their decision, but the fact remains that they just lost the
best man they had. 

	Personally I have mixed feelings about Brian leaving. He loved what
he did, many times I'd try to call him at home at 8pm only to be informed he
was still at work. Hell, the night before the knife struck his back I was
with him in a brewpub as he was telling a couple of customers about the GABF
and the local homebrewing club and explaining to some other customers about
lambics and yeast. Actually the whole evening speaks to the fact that he's a
beer guy 24/7: I was there to visit the brewer (that Brian introduced me to,
by the way) and collect some yeast to replace a batch of bad yeast in my
brewpub. He saved my ass. Why was Brian there? To follow that generous
brewer to Golden and give him a ride home, 40 miles in the opposite
direction of Brian's home. I'm sad to see Brian leave a job he loved (and
lived) but I'm glad that particular tax free bureaucracy will no longer
benefit from his talent. The same not for profit establishment (with 9 out
of 21 employees being managers, you do the math) who held the World Beer Cup
Finals in the undisputed center of the brewing universe, Rio de Janeiro?(oh
did I mention, Chucks wife is from Brazil? Hmmm...)  The same tax evaders
who spend $300,000 on Charlie and his travel but have to lay off a bunch of
their staff because of financial problems. The crooks don't deserve Brian.

Someone asked last week why people hated Chuck, why is everyone so hard on
him. Is it jealousy? Well yes, it's jealousy, I'd love to bilk the public
for six digits a year, hire a bunch of yes men and fire the only guy who
didn't kiss my ass. Of course, I'd have to kill myself when I got home for
the shame of it all, but that's me. I'd love to collect royalties by
compiling recipes (other peoples recipes) from the nationals and putting
them in a book. I'd love to keep selling my homeberwing how-to book with
scores of obvious errors without bothering to correct them. Jealousy? Maybe.
Mostly outrage and disgust.

I feel sorry for the new homebrewer who thinks his AHA membership is the
answer to all his questions and prayers. He will find better information on
the web from people who ACTUALLY brew beer. Good luck seeing anything out of
the AHA as inspired as the Big Brew and good luck getting your phone call
answered after 4:30 when Paul leaves in a puff of smoke.

I'm kinda glad Brian is gone because now I can tell it like it is without
worrying about repercussions for him. Brian deserves better and I think
he'll find it in a hurry (probably at twice the salary).   

In me, the AHA has lost a member, a homebrew club and any shred of respect I
held for them.



Roger H Grow
Homebrewer
Microbrewer
Second highest homebrewer (damned Mt Whitney)
FORMER AHA member


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:42:32 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: brian rezac and the aha


i am really sorry to hear of the aha's latest stupidity. brian was a breath of
fresh air in a musty organization and i think he was really starting to
accomplish some things. i guess thats why he was fired. everytime i start to
think nice things about the aha they immediatly bounce me back down


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:46:11 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: brew pub suggestions

Ed Wolfe, a good friend of mine and beer judge, is going to be leaving
Gainesville soon for East Lansing. He asked me to post to the HBD and
ask for suggestions of must see brew pubs on the way. He specifically
asked about Atlanta, Nashville, and Indianapolis. I'd greatly appreciate
any suggestions to pass on to him. Where is Three Flloyd's? I know it is
in Indiana, but what city? I had the chance to try their Alpha King, and
those boys are not afraid of hops! That's the kind of recommendations
I'd like to get for him, so any great places y'all can suggest would be
appreciated.

thanks,
Mark Tumarkin

t



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:23:31 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Stout Season

Greetings all !
    I earlier asked about making a " Heather Ale " and got back
some greet responses. I think I've finally found a source of fresh
Heather, so I 'm hoping to taste this much thought of beer.
    Ok now for another thought . My wife and I enjoy the taste
of a good stout, and just the way this rolls off the tongue makes
my want to try.
    Please just let my try.     Ok here's the test.
                    Brussel Sprout Stout...........?
    I don't think I'll need a large amount of sprouts, but I don't
want to skimp on the brussel sprout bite you get on freshly
steamed sprouts. Yes I like the little green things. Any
thoughts of a good recipe ? Anybody ? Anybody ?
                            Hal Warrick




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:14:57 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Malt sandwiches

Lester Long made a beer with exactly two ingredients; Munich Malt and Saaz
Hops.
Boy, that must have been a dry beer! ;^)



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:47:23 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <timgreen at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Fools and dying organizations...

Brian Rezac writes:

>I've been fired...given the boot, axed, bounced, canned, discharged,
>disemployed, dropped, let go, sacked, terminated.  It's the policy of
>the Association of Brewers not to announce such happenings, but I just
>wanted to let you know and to tell you all how much I've enjoyed my
>time at the American Homebrewers Association.  Especially being able
>to work for, and with, such a wonderful group of people...homebrewers.

It seems that the organization that claims to want to stand for the
homebrewer has succeeded in proving just how little they are in touch with
those of us out here who are actually doing the brewing.

I am an extract brewer who is normally not interested in the complicated
chemistry and the fancy bells and whistles. I just want to brew my beer and
associate with others who do. I seems to me that, ignoring the past record
of the AOB/AHA, that Brian was just the type of brewer that I would want to
have helping run my organization!

Based on the information passed on by Brian, and the excellent Big Brew
events the last two years, I was considering joining the AHA and attending
the conference comming up in Detroit. I doubt that I will be willing to take
part in an organization that acts at such cross purposes to supporting the
homebrewing community.

On the other hand, if Brian and a few others were to take it upon themselves
to form a new organization in support of the homebrewing community, I would
gladly join.

Tim Green



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:22:44 -0500
From: "glyn crossno" <crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: hop utilization by style

larry land  asked about hop utilization by style:

I would suggest a great place that helped me get started in all this
nonsense is The Brewery, now located at
http://hbd.org/brewery/index.html.  Thanks for picking it up HBD.

Try looking in the Library under Hops.  The article, Hop Profiles,
posted by John Goldwaite based on L.D. Carlson fact sheet, is the first
that comes to mind.

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:32:52 EDT
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Re:Re:Newbies for breakfast?

Phil Yates-

Read the post again. I was quoting Randy Shreve quoting you. Sic 'im, boy.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:54:32 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Glycol/Tips

Wayne Holder has aquired a glycol chiller. That's great!  As for what to
feed it - go to the auto parts store or warehouse discount store and buy
"Sierra" antifreeze coolant. This is propylene glycol which is non toxic
relative to the more commonly used ethylene glycol. Propylene glycol is
thus much safer for you, your kids, your pets etc in the case of a leak
to the beer (you) or the outside (kids,pets). I always like to point out
that part of the treatment for ethylene glycol poisoning is a hefty dose
of ethanol - ties up the alcohol dehydrogenase in your system so that it
can't oxidize glycol to oxalic acid which is what really gets you in
ethylene glycol poisoning (unoxidized glycol is excreted by the
kidneys). I always recommend a prophylactic dose of ethanol when, for
example, renewing antifreeze in the fall - just to be on the safe side.

Todays Tips from Commercial Brewing:

A couple of general remarks. The intent of these tips is to call
attention to things that we as homebrewers have taken from commercial
brewing practice. Not all home brewers will use them: many are
definitely advanced. My original intent was to insert these as
appropriate when my own posts touched on them but I think their
universality is better appreciated if I flag them from other peoples
posts. I don't intend to give anything but the sketchiest details except
where they have not (to my knowledge) been discussed before. Hence the
somewhat detailed explanation of ORP a few days ago. In yesterday's as
todays digest three came up:

1) In #3089 Domenick Venezia mentioned oxygenation of yeast starters.
Large breweries have yeast propagation tanks which are equipped with
stirrers and oxygenators. By swirling the yeast it is kept in constant
contact with nutrients in the broths and by continuous application of
oxygen it is held in growth phase. The result is production of
relatively more biomass and relatively less alcohol. Home brewers do
this to. Those that have stir plates or shakers use them. Oxygen can be
supplied in bursts separated by a half hour or so. If you give  burst of
O2 every half hour or so over the course of a day (the day before or a
couple of days before brew day) you can grow an amazing amount of yeast
pretty quickly. One more detail: be sure that there is lots of FAN in
the broth. Use a yeast nutrient.

In #3089 there were references to two techniques on my list (which I
don't claim is all inclusive).

2) Alan Meeker mentioned using triangle testing. The triangle test is
the accepted method for telling whether something you did really made a
change in the beer. It's called a triangle test  because three samples
are tasted. Two of one beer and one of a second. Tasters are asked to
pick the one that doen't match the other two. Statistical tables are
used to determine the probability that you got the results you did by
random chance. If this probability is quite low then you are confident
that the test beer was really perceptibly different from the controls.

3) Dave Galloway mentioned the use of ascorbic acid as an antioxidant
which I posted as a tip a few days back. Dave- use a little metabite as
well. As I mentioned a couple of days ago oxidized ascorbic acid can in
turn oxidize things in the beer. Make sure the thing oxidized is
metabite and staling is prevented (or at least slowed).

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:53:37 -0400
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: BYO Magazine

Greg Remake in #3086 asks:
> I was offered an annual Brew Your Own magazine subscription for about $28.
> What is the Collective's opinion of this publication?

Greg, Let me take a shot.  I personally subscribe to BYO & Zymurgy.  I
on occasion pick up a copy of BT.  I enjoy reading all 3 but they are
all different.

I would generically bin BYO as more of a beginner magazine.  Something I
would recommend to someone just starting out.  It gives lots of
recipies, style discussions, they add humor, reader articles, etc.  They
seem to concentrate on the extract brewer.  On the other spectrum, BT I
feel (as a fairly new homebrewer, 1.5 yrs) is more technically
orientated, with in-depth experimentation results, technical analysis,
in-depth style discussions.  Zymurgy, I feel fits between them both.  

I enjoy reading all three, and get valuable information from all.  Being
an extract/speciality grain brewer, I am getting more bang for my buck
with BYO & Zym. One thing to keep in mind, BYO is 12 issues a year, Zym
is 6, I believe BT is also 6.  Also, with Zym, you are paying for more
than just a magazine, AHA membership, etc.
- -- 
David Russell
Ford Motor Company, Dearborn MI


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:15:15 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Is it Phil, or is it Jill?

Phil Yates says :
"Thomas, can I call you Tom? Let's get a little bit friendly here. 
 Firstly, I do not appreciate the suggestion that Jill is helping 
 me out with my posts. In fact in line with general HBD policy I 
 am extremely infuriated by your comment and may just well report 
 it to the police!"

Um, Phil buddy, you are publishing your Email address as that of :
"Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>"

What the heck do you expect but for someone to be unclear on 
exactly who is posting the message?  Regardless of how you sign
the bottom of your messages, you yourself are signing the top of
them with your wife's name.

For an extra $5 a month my ISP gives us an extra username, password,
email address and web space for my wife.  So we each have our own
separate accounts, email, and all that.  I suggest that if your
ISP does not offer this, perhaps you might consider changing to
one who does.

For it is you yourself who is responsible for the confusion.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:17:02 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: your AHA renewal

Tim Neall says :
"My membership come up for renewal in a couple 
months. I will throw my renewal card in the trash."

Good for you, Tim!  But please, don't just throw it in the
trash.  It won't make the point nearly as well unless you
actually send an Email to the AHA and let them know exactly
WHY you won't be renewing.

You've already got the message written, now just pop it
off to the AHA.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:22:00 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: basements and beer

I always thought that basements were created (esp. in the
northeast) to house the fruits of the harvest for the rest of the
year before there was refrigeration.  All the wine, beer, cider,
crop seeds, canned and fresh veggies were kept cool in the
basement and lasted longer as a result.  In fact, I read once
(and no, I don't have the citation) that it was common to get
blocks of ice covered with sawdust and keep them in the basement
during the warmer spring months as a way to keep things cool
until the garden was producing again.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:24:52 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mills

 Petr Otahal <potahal at postoffice.utas.edu.au> asks about building a mill.
 

As far as gap in concerned, try real hard to make it adjustable.  There 
is
no way that you can find a compromise gap that will perform equally well
with English 2 row and American 6 row to say nothing about wheat and rye.
 

As far as gap range goes, at least touching to .125.  More might be handy

for passing the unexpected.

If you decide to go with a fixed gap, you should realize that any so 
called
"optimun" will be dependent on the knural and probably also the diameter.


It is not necessary to drive both rolls, the grain will transmit power to

the slave roll.  Some see an advantage in driving them at different 
speeds.
 


Inorder to avoid knuraling the roll diameters will have to be at least 8 
to
10 inches in diameter.  I have a 8" mill and the driving roll has a very
slight knural, but its slave roll usually needs to be manually started.  
(
actually I haven't used it in years as I cannibalized it for parts) 


I don't know for sure, but I will bet that knurling stainless would be a
pain.

Dan Listermann      dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:57:42 -0500
From: Jeff Pursley <JPursley at Tulsa.E2M.net>
Subject: Brian Rezac and Paul Gatza's explanation

The AHA posted the following response on their AHA Forum TechTalk-2,
Wednesday, July 21 1999, Volume 01 : Number 304. Paul Gatza responded to a
request for an explanation of Brian's firing.
__________________________________________________________

from Paul Gatza:

Yes unfortunately that rumor is true. I have known Brian since the first
time he came in to the homebrew shop after his wife Nancy bought him his
start-up kit. We are friends and will continue to be. 

Brian's amazing interpersonal skills did not, unfortunately, transfer into
the administrative realm. Brian was in a probationary period and
unfortunately did not meet the terms of that probation. 

It is a sad day at the AHA. Brian's legacy will certainly be positive as
Big Brew showed how talented, creative and motivating he can be. There was
another side that did not show publicly. Although I was disappointed with
the lack of organization with this year's NHC, the missed deadlines and
the wasted member dollars that resulted, that was not reason alone for
taking this action. But it did continue a pattern of behavior that led me
to lose confidence in next year's NHC had things continued on as they
were. I presented Brian with a list of eight expectations, some of which
were directed to standard employee/employer functions and others
specifically related to the program work here. I felt he left me no choice
and that continuing to employ him was an unfair use of member funds when
he could not meet even the most basic item that any employer would expect
of any employee. Believe me I wish it did not have to happen.
________________________________________________________________

Well, what do you think? I've been an AHA member for 4 years. So far the
benefits have been slim. Zymurgy was helpful at first but I get little from
it now. The Kansas City conference was a great time. It was my first
conference and I got to meet many regular HBD participants. My homebrewing
goals are to make good beer and to associate with good homebrewers. Is the
AHA still worth my $$? Can we expect a better NHC or other services? Is this
latest development with Brian a sign of better things or of worse things to
come? How about some input on this from some AHA Board members. Where is the
AHA going? What can we members do to see that the AHA becomes what we need
it to be?

Jeff Pursley
Tulsa, OK


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:04:49 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Glycol?

Wayne,

>I've recently acquired a small glycol chiller. Now I'm wondering what
>the heck do I put in it? Do I just go to a refrigeration supply and ask
>for glycol, or is there a trade name for the stuff?

Go to a Auto parts store and grab some of the generic anti-freeze.
Anti-freeze is basically a glycol (propylene or ethylene mixture.
Use it in your chiller 100%, don't mix it with water (unless there are
instructions to the contrary w/ the chiller).  You can get special
grades of glycols (i.e. electronic, that's what we use at the semiconductor
plant where I work) but they are the same basic stuff with tighter
controls for the composition of the liquid.

The cheap auto anti-freeze should work fine.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:12:12 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands

Brett,

>I have been searching the internet and emailing suppliers and hb shops
>looking to buy only the cast ring burners and hoses w/regulators for adding
>to my new brewstand. But so far no luck finding them as loose parts. Any
>recommendations or sources people know of for these things?

Think outside the box, i.e. instead of looking at homebrew suppliers look
others.  I got a camp burner from Harbor Freight.  I tossed the little 6"
legs that came with it.  I think it was advertised around 35-40k btu.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:24:25 -0400
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Cold room & glycol

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#3089, Dave Burley asks for information concerning 
construction of a cold room in his new garage/hobby room.

 I'll repost a couple of paragraphs from one of my earlier posts as I 
think the info fits the situation:
 
 The first, and I believe to be the best choice in this case is to look
around for business liquidation sales or auctions. Cold rooms of this
size are very common and are often cheap to buy. I've been offered
several over the years, free for the taking. These rooms are
generally made up of foam-filled sheet metal panels that have been
zip-screwed together. The refrigeration system is made up of
several components. There will be a separate condensing unit that
may be located outdoors to prevent heat rejection into the garage
space. The evaporator and fans are usually mounted high on one
wall and are designed to remove moisture from the air at the desired
temperatures (low 30'sF). There will be a drain pan and line to carry
away any condensate to a remote location. Be aware that an EPA
certified technician will be required to reclaim any refrigerant in the
system before you can disassemble the cooling components. When
the room is reassembled, the tech will need to leak-check, evacuate
and charge the system. There may be local laws requiring licensed
technicians to perform *any* refrigeration-related work.

 Another possibility is to construct a well insulated room and install a
small window air conditioner as the cooling unit. An external 
temperature controller may be needed to achieve temperatures 
below 50 degF.
 I would recommend 4" of rigid foam for insulation on the *inside* of 
a 2x4 framework. The foam would be two layers of 2" rigid board, 
installed with joints butted and sealed tight, and staggered between 
inner and outer layers. I'd also highly recommend a layer of 5/8" 
water-resistant drywall inside the foam to provide some fire 
resistance. Interior finish could be a vapor-barrier paint or 
something similar.

 In South Carolina high ambient temperatures and humidity will be a 
problem. Extra care will need to be taken to assure tight joints and 
door gasketing. Moisture removal will likely be the biggest part of the 
refrigeration system's job. Accurate sizing of the refrigeration 
system, whether it be a window a/c or commercial split system will 
be crucial in order to get the best dehumidification performance. 
Too large a cooling unit will not properly dehumidify, and too small a 
unit won't cool the room properly on hot days.

 In the same HBD, Wayne Holder asks what he should use in his 
newly acquired glycol chiller. In our large systems We use 
"Dowtherm", which is an ethylene glycol product we buy in 55 gallon 
drums from our water treatment contractor. For small systems I like 
to use one of the "Kids and pets safe" automotive antifreeze 
products. These are based on propylene glycol, which is used in 
many food products. The automotive antifreeze will have corrosion 
inhibitors and other additives which are useful in this application. 
Simply mix with distilled water according to package directions. 
Straight antifreeze is a poorer thermal transfer solution than one 
diluted properly with water. 

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:47:16 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Long Serving Lines,apology

Brewsters:

Alan Edwards comments on ways to reduce foam
from a keg and asks for a discussion of using this
technique of adding a long serving line from 

keg to faucet. 


I have never tried adding great lengths of
serving line  - but would welcome experimental
results of foam height & lifetime versus line length
and a new variable I discuss below - line diameter..
Also, coiling the line may make a difference.

Personally, I cannot see how it would work,
at least the way it has been explained in the  past
(assigning some pressure drop per foot of line)
makes absolutely no sense to me.  A long line
should slow the flow of the beer due to viscosity
along the walls and turning points and valves
(Reynolds #,  wall effect), but the beer still
has to come out at atmospheric pressure and
starts out at the head pressure of the keg.

Pressure drop per foot is then just the pressure
differential ( which is the psig reading on the
keg pressure valve) divided by the hose length.
It  may be that the contol of the flow rate using the
long tube is more gentle than a pin valve ( at which
foam could break out) and could explain some
observations of better foam control with longer
hoses.

I even bought 30 ft of pressure tubing
once to try the experiment but finally said
"Nah, what do I do with all this tubing and
all that beer in it?" I just keep my keg at 8 -10 psig

If the slower flow and not some mystical drop
in pressure per foot of line is the secret,
why not just use a smaller diameter,
shorter tube? Comments?

Also Reynolds numbers ( a relationship
between diameter, curves and such to allow
a flow rate estimation are very dependent
on the number of turns the fluid takes and
it may be that the coiling ( tighter, looser
versus a straight hose) will also slow flow.

It may be possible to use a shorter hose
of convential diameter, but wind it on a
form ( say 2" diameter dowel) to produce a
 tighly wound coil ( and pinching it somewhat
besides) to produce the same effect without
the long hose cleaning  and beer losses.

Of course, if you are successful in reducing
foam, you may end up with long serving lines,
anyway, but it will be your friends! {8^)
- ----------------------------
Well, I don't know how my personal mail to
AlK gets onto the HBD, since I believe I
have checked this over and over in our
offline recipients list. Sorry for that and my
apologies to Al.
- -----------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:38:51 -0500
From: "SCHNEIDER,BRETT" <SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com>
Subject: Replies on Ring Burner Search

WOW! I had a flood of replies and they were all basically pointing in the
same directions. Metal Fusion sells them and all loose pieces. No credit
cards or COD - cash only transactions and they are supposed to ship after
check clears. Need to work it out on the phone first:

Metal Fusion
712 St. George Ave
Jefferson, LA 70121
504-736-0201
800-783-3885

Also pico-Brewing Systems will sell them, and they have a two unit hose with
a regulator assembly for plumbing them into my idea of one regulator or
control for selection of one of 2 burners. They are on the web and their
site is easy to find. Mike replied and would order them as he places his
orders.

Finally, Brinkmann at 1-800-HOT-5252 offers them loose part as well.

I am also going in this weekend to a local Grill Master store. I was put
their way by calling a propane gas company and they gave me a customer they
had who they thought might be able to help. They have them in catalogues and
can special order, so I hope to find various btu sized stuff in there and
order them locally to support local suppliers of any kind.

Again, thanks to the HBD for it's valuable assistance with actual brewing
related questions

	-bas


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:00:52 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Squirting and rapping

AJ talks about rapping bottles to cause overfoaming in counterpressure bottle
filling. This allows you to cap on foam, like in commercial brewing. It seems
to me that the biggest problem I've had in counterpressure filling is with
conservation of carbonation. Any foaming will necessarily diminish the level
of carbonation in the bottled beer. I personally find it unproductive to cause
foaming after I've painstakingly filled a bottle with the intent of
eliminating foaming. Then again, I always lose a lot of carbonation from keg
to bottle, probably because I can't bear to chill my bottles prior to filling.
If only I had a walk-in cooler to fill bottles in...

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739






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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:40:02 -0500
From: Gary D Hipple <ghipple at mmmpcc.org>
Subject: AHA & Brian Rezac


I received this reply from Paul Gatza at AHA after sending a message 
about my intention to let my membership lapse. Looks like it's a personal 
dislike for Brian Rezac that got him fired.


Hi Gary. I am sorry that you have decided to let your membership lapse.
There is a limit to the information I can provide. My decision was a
personnel matter and not a policy matter. Personnel matters are private
issues in businesses across the country. There is more to the story than
can appropriately be divulged publicly. Having a strong national
organization to promote the hobby of homebrewing is important in my
opinion, and it weakens homebrewing in the U.S. when individuals and
clubs are not a part of the national association. If your club decides
to "unregister" with the AHA, let me know and I will deactivate your
complimentary membership in the database and remove the listing from the
website. I hope you decide to stay with us.
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB

- -----------------------------------
G Hipple
44 deg 55 mins N
93 deg 10 mins W


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:59:25 -0700
From: Joe Perrigoue <Joe at supply.com>
Subject: Doctor in the Dictionary & a mild ale

ALAN KEITH MEEKER wrote:

>>refer those who get pissy about the use of the title "Doctor" to a latin
>>dictionary.  The word is derived from latin and predates the existance
>>of "universities" by more that a thousand years.  "Doctor" simply means
>>teacher.  I don't know why it is that people have the idea that
>>universities have the sole right of conferring this title.

>Oh, uh, right. Forgot to check my Latin dictionary. My /English/
 dictionary on
>the other hand defines doctor as a "qualified medical practitioner" or a
>"holder of a doctorate." If doctor means teacher than I guess I should've
 been
>addressing all my grade-school teachers accordingly, ooops.


You should buy a better dictionary.

>From Websters:

Doctor

1 orig., a teacher or learned man 


 -Note that this is the PRIMARY definition. The SECONDARY definition is 

that of a person who holds a doctorate.

I really didn't want to jump into this mess but for the last few months 

that I have been following this list there has been an incredible amount 

of easily checked misinformation posted. Really folks, it only takes a 

few minutes to check something that is a question of fact, not opinion.

"No one ever had Colonel Sanders arrested for pretending to be a military 

officer, nor is Doc Severinson in danger of prosecution for impersonating 

a physician." - John Bear


Beer Content
- ------------

I recently made a wonderful mild ale. It has a nice red\brown color and 

the most delicious taste. It is slightly sweet with a nice malt taste and 

slight bitter finish. Very tasty indeed. The recipe follows.

6 lbs. Munich malt extract(Alexanders or other)
1/2 lb. Munich malt
1/2 lb. Crystal malt 35L
2.5 oz. Liberty hops
Yeast Labs English Ale Yeast(liquid)

Steep grains to 170f and remove. Add extract and bring to boil, 

immediately add 1.5 oz hops. Add .5 oz hops at 45 min. Add .5 oz hops at 

58 min. Remove from heat and rack at 60 min. Pitch yeast. Wait. Drink. 

Yummy!

I let this one sit in the glass for a bit to warm up to ~55f before 

drinking.

Joe




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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:17:13 -0400
From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
Subject: CO2 Charts / Seattle Brews / Skunky Boil?

People have been interested in C02 charts
here for a couple days now - but I thought
I would post something possibly more useful.
This is a formula that I came across (can't
recall where, but if you know it's yours
feel free to lay claim to it) while surfing
around.

Pressure =	(-16.6999) - (0.0101059 * Temperature) + 
		(0.00116512 * (Temperature * Temperature)) + 
		(0.173354 * Temperature * Volume) + 
		(4.24267 * Volume) - (0.0684226 * (Volume * Volume));

(All non-metric)

The form might not be pretty since I was using this
in a program that didn't deal with exponents, but
it may be useful anyway. (I don't guarantee the 
accuracy of it, but it works for me.)

- ------------------------------------------------

>> Can anybody offer any suggestions on good brewpubs,
>> homebrew stores, etc. in the Seattle area?

chris at northernbrewer.com
>My condolences. Seattle isn't really known for beer. ;)

Condolences? Bah!   Just because a city isn't KNOWN for
beer, doesn't mean there isn't good beer there.  There are
quite a few homebrew shops, clubs, and microbrews (don't
know about brewpubs too much) in that area.

- --------------------------------------------------

Here is a question in scenario form - 

Bright sunny Sunday morning.  Brew day has arrived!
Mash procedure went perfectly.  Hit my 155.52'F mark
perfectly.  Mashed and ran off 6 gallons to my
new brew pot (of course hitting my 1.055256 OG
predictions perfectly.) Now I haul out the new
gas burner and light up out in my driveway to begin
my boil.

Then it hits me - 

The sun.  Sure is nice and bright today.  I'm boiling
my precious concoction in bright and direct sunlight
(high noon by the time the boil finishes.)  "Aren't
I going to have the worlds skunky'est beer?", I think.
Too late now I guess.  And besides, I've seen plenty
of people brewing outdoors all the time.  They never
seem to think about, or have trouble with skunks.
Hmmm...

Any thoughts?

 - ShockValue
(please flame me directly for my signature 
so I can send you some email bombs and virii.)


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:29:05 -0700
From: Dan Jeska <dfjeska at mei.net>
Subject: Re: Ring Burners Needed

Brett Schneider wrote:

I have been searching the internet and emailing suppliers and hb shops
looking to buy only the cast ring burners and hoses w/regulators for
adding
to my new brewstand. But so far no luck finding them as loose parts.
Any
recommendations or sources people know of for these things?

        - brett

Metal Fusion, 1.800.783.3885, sells the cast iron burners you are
looking for. They cost about $16.00 ea.

Dan





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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:55:12 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Ring Burner Elements

Greetings!

In HBD #3089, Thursday, July 22, 1999, Brett asks about possible 
sources of cast ring burner elements.  Try these two sources:

Bayou Classic's Accessory page on their web site - 
http://www.bayou-classic.com/accessories.htm.

Metal Fusion (the maker of the King Kooker) will sell the burner elements 
separately, phone 504-734-0201 (thanks Marty Tippin!).

Good luck!!
Bob P.
East Haven, CT


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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:43:31 -0400
From: "BeerLvr" <Beerlvr at hrfn.net>
Subject: RE: Glycol

I would expect (not an expert) that you could use any good antifreeze from
the local auto parts store.

Mike Pensinger
BeerLvr at hrfn.net



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:53:58 -0400
From: "BeerLvr" <Beerlvr at hrfn.net>
Subject: RE: Ring Burners Needed

"SCHNEIDER,BRETT" <SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com> wrote:
>Subject: Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands

>I have been searching the internet and emailing suppliers and hb shops
>looking to buy only the cast ring burners and hoses w/regulators for adding
>to my new brewstand. But so far no luck finding them as loose parts. Any
>recommendations or sources people know of for these things?

>- brett

Brett,

Attached is a link to a place that carries the burners and regulator
assemblies.  The other source is Metal Fusion.  They do not take credit
cards and have no web page.  You call them up and place your order then send
a check.

http://www.masterbuilt.com/

After pricing the burners from both places I decided that after shipping and
all the expences I could go to Sams Club and buy one of the complete burners
for $39.95 and pay about the same price.

Mike Pensinger
BeerLvr at hrfn.net




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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:11:36 -0700
From: James Scott Johnson <JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Refrigerated Yeast

I have a couple of yeasts stored in my refrigerator in flasks.  One has
been stored for a few weeks and the other a couple of months.  I have
not added fresh wort since racking from the fermentors.  I was wondering
if these yeast are still good to use? There seems to be no off aromas
when smelling them.  Should I use them or pitch them down the drain?

Scott Johnson



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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:33:51 -0700
From: "Mike Kauffman" <mkauffma at fhcrc.org>
Subject: oak barrels

I'm looking for a 5 gallon oak barrel, but can't afford a "new" one from the
homebrew/wine suppliers.  Do any of you have one (or know of someone) that
you would like to get rid of.  I would prefer French oak, but really don't
care.

Thanks for the help.

- --Please reply direct

Mike Kauffman
mkauffma at fhcrc.org




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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:52:41 -0400
From: Peter Owings <peteo1 at mindspring.com>
Subject: AOB Explanation

For those of you who wanted to hear the AOB's explanation of Brian Rezac's
firing , here goes........

>from Paul Gatza:

>Yes unfortunately that rumor is true. I have known Brian since the first
>time he came in to the homebrew shop after his wife Nancy bought him his
>start-up kit. We are friends and will continue to be. 

>Brian's amazing interpersonal skills did not, unfortunately, transfer into
>the administrative realm. Brian was in a probationary period and
>unfortunately did not meet the terms of that probation. 

>It is a sad day at the AHA. Brian's legacy will certainly be positive as
>Big Brew showed how talented, creative and motivating he can be. There was
>another side that did not show publicly. Although I was disappointed with
>the lack of organization with this year's NHC, the missed deadlines and
>the wasted member dollars that resulted, that was not reason alone for
>taking this action. But it did continue a pattern of behavior that led me
>to lose confidence in next year's NHC had things continued on as they
>were. I presented Brian with a list of eight expectations, some of which
>were directed to standard employee/employer functions and others
>specifically related to the program work here. I felt he left me no choice
>and that continuing to employ him was an unfair use of member funds when
>he could not meet even the most basic item that any employer would expect
>of any employee. Believe me I wish it did not have to happen.

- -- I can't believe anyone would "trash" an ex-employee. I think I've
learned a little too much about what goes on at the AHA.


peteo1 at mindspring.com
"Remember kids...Duck and cover!"












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---