---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Doctor title (lindrom)
  These Flaming Newbies With Mini Kegs! ("Phil \"Get Off MyTitle Bar Jill\" Yates")
  RE:glycol ("Todd & Sherrel Crane")
  draft beer guy... ("Todd & Sherrel Crane")
  Thanks you guys.. (larry land)
  hbd#3090 (Liz Blades)
  Re: Refrigerated yeast ("Fred L. Johnson")
  BYO Magazine (Greg Remake)
  AHA problems (before the firing) (Matthew Arnold)
  CO2 equation source (Demonick)
  re: Brian's firing (Kurt Goodwin)
  careful ("Alan McKay")
  newby 1st posting (James Jerome)
  How long is YOUR hose? ("Alan McKay")
  re:  Indianapolis Brewpubs and Three Floyds Brewery ("William B. Howard")
  Mills ("Jack Schmidling")
  a different spin (Jim Liddil)
  Hot water canning and the demise of the AHA? (Joy Hansen)
  Brewing English ales... (Mr Delgado)
  Brewer's Worksheet by Darryl Richman ("Fred L. Johnson")
  raspberry or woodruff syrup in a berliner weiss ("Charles T. Major")
  Thank you Paul..... (AKGOURMET)
  How long is YOUR hose? (Dave Burley)
  Repitching yeast / Seattle ("Christopher Farley")
  Paul Gatza Aired In Public ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Vendor question (Bruce & Amber Carpenter)
  Pasteur effect? ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  What to do with AHA membership money (Adam Holmes)
  AHA, etc. ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Cincinnati Keg Off (Rod Prather)
  Maillard reactions/pCooking/boiling ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Subscribe to the Distilled Beverage Digest
* Send "subscribe" in body of note to dbd-request@hbd.org
* Subscribe to the Home Vintners' Digest
* Send "subscribe" in body of note to hvd-request@hbd.org

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:51:21 -0400
From: lindrom at sssnet.com
Subject: Re: Doctor title 

First time poster, but on a subject that is of unique interest to me.

ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
writes (snip)
> 
> PET PIVO
> (snip)
> Oh, uh, right. Forgot to check my Latin dictionary. My /English/ 
dictionary on
> the other hand defines doctor as a "qualified medical practitioner" or a
> "holder of a doctorate." If doctor means teacher than I guess I 
should've been
> addressing all my grade-school teachers accordingly, ooops.
> 
> 
I went and checked Miriam Webster at Yahoo. It would seem that 
this purports to be an English dictionary.   For Doctorate it states:
*******************
Main Entry: doctorate
Pronunciation: 'dk-t(&-)r&t
Function: noun
Date: 1676
: the degree, title, or rank of a doctor 
****************
For Doctor it states:
********************
Main Entry: 1doctor
Pronunciation: 'dk-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English doctour teacher, doctor, from Middle 
French & Medieval Latin; Middle
French, from Medieval Latin doctor, from Latin, teacher, from 
docEre to teach -- more at DOCILE
Date: 14th century
1 a : an eminent theologian declared a sound expounder of doctrine 
by the Roman Catholic Church -- called also doctor of the church 
b:  a learned or authoritative teacher c : a person who has earned 
one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a 
university d : a person awarded an honorary doctorate (as an LLD 
or Litt D) by a college or university   

2 a : one skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : a 
physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian who is licensed to 
practice b : MEDICINE MAN

3 a : material added (as to food) to produce a desired effect b : a 
blade (as of metal) for spreading a coating or scraping a surface

4 : a person who restores or repairs things
 - doctoral /-t(&-)r&l/ adjective
 - doctorless /-t&r-l&s/ adjective
 - doctorship /-"ship/ noun 
*****************************
Please note number 2.b "Medicine Man".  Obviously not awarded 
by a traditional university.  Note also number 4, a "fixer".    It would 
seem that a number of items besides a earned university degree 
qualify as "doctors".  If Dr. Pivo is an expounder of an article of faith 
to us all, why could he not even be number 1, a Doctor of the 
theology of brewing?  Hope the Christians don't get me for hearasy 
<g>.  

My basic premise is that people who get wrapped up in the titles 
need to develop a sense of self worth in other affairs as well.  That 
is not to say that lots of folks who have a lot of book learning (and 
have earned doctorates awarded by universities) are not wonderful 
and knowledgeable people, but especially problematical are those 
who go so far as to have the letters of their degrees on the back of 
their names on innocent documents such as checks and also 
demand checkout clerks and others address them as Dr.   I will 
excuse an innocent series of letters at the end if the guy is 
otherwise not pompus.   

Note also that the above definition allows any person, whether nice 
smart guy or a yahoo, awarded a doctorate by a university for 
giving a bunch of money to call himself or herself a doctor. How do 
we distinguish those folks?

BTW and FWIW, I have been awarded a earned doctorate by a 
university.  Not in spelling, brewing or philosophy however.  Newbie 
flame suit on.

Mike Lindroos
Newbie (8 batches) of extract under my belt but hoping one day to 
be considered by my peers (or at least my free beer drinking 
neighbor) as a doctor of brewing good things to drink.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:25:07 +1000
From: "Phil \"Get Off MyTitle Bar Jill\" Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: These Flaming Newbies With Mini Kegs!

     Jeff Hall has been flamed on the HBD and still doesn't have any answers
for his mini keg problems. Hey, if you are going to flame someone at least
give them a hint of an answer in the process! We don't want to run out of
candidates to flame do we? Sorry Jeff, if you don't get my warped sense of
humour rest assured you are not alone!
     Dan Listermann is currently the on board expert regarding mini kegs and
I will be surprised if he hasn't already chimed in with some answers. I
accumulated half a dozen of these little babies and an expensive Fass Frisch
German dispensing tap and my biggest problem was the beer going flat over an
unacceptably short period of time (seven days) once the tap had been speared
into the keg. Dan says the taps aren't much chop (means "they are crap" in
US lingo) and gave me some clues to remedy my problem - It worked Dan!
     If you are finding the beer frothy but flat upon opening, firstly I
will probably insult you by asking if you realize kegged beer generally
arrives in the glass this way compared to a bottled beer. If this basic
difference is not what is troubling you I should tell you that priming as
per instructions I found provided inadequate carbonation. I upped it by 33%
from 15gms to 20gms (you can worry about ridiculous imperial conversions
yourself) per keg and this seemed to be just right.
     No matter what gas you wish to use in those pissy little cartridges (I
have tried the whip its) it will do no more than flow the beer. But here is
some info if you use corny kegs as well that may be useful. The carbonating
tops for PET plastic bottles will screw on to a Fass Frisch dispensing tap
and seal with a bit of thread tape. Using your regulated gas bottle
connected you can blow the keg to kingdom come if you so desire. Or in a
more pensive mood you could simply carbonate the contents to your
requirements. I learnt this from the manager of my local (50kms away)
homebrew shop who always tells me something I didn't already know!
     The corny kegs have caused my 5ltr mini's to sit on the shelf gathering
dust. But I want to use them for storing some evil brews that I wouldn't be
game to fill a corny keg with and take up half the fridge. Jill would murder
me!
Hope this info is useful.

Cheers
Phil Yates.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:05:29 -0000
From: "Todd & Sherrel Crane" <toddandsherrel at netzero.net>
Subject: RE:glycol

RE:From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Glycol?

As for your question about glycol, Make sure you run only food grade glycol
in your system.  and other glycol will ruin your system.  If you need help
in getting food grade glycol, let me know. I am a draft beer technician by
trade and I can special order it for you.
Todd Crane
toddandsherrel at netzero.net


________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:09:01 -0000
From: "Todd & Sherrel Crane" <toddandsherrel at netzero.net>
Subject: draft beer guy...

Hello,
I just wanted to post that I am a draft beer technician by trade.  I work
for a local wholesaler as the head draft tech. for my area.  If I can help
anyone in this area please let me know.
Todd Crane
toddandsherrel at netzero.net

________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:12:50 -0500
From: larry land <lland at startext.net>
Subject: Thanks you guys..

I love you man

- --- just want to say THANKS
for all the response generated from my recent query re:hops by style.

Normally, I be a'lurkin....

However, this groups behavior towards help and support has really
changed my mind; this is a great group!
Now, I expect each and every one of ya'll to come over and allow me to
let you sample my latest...... cold and foamy!   ;)
PROSIT!



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 22:08:06 BST
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Liz Blades)
Subject: hbd#3090

Hi All,

Dan Listerman wrote :-
"Liz Blades ( blades at airtime.co.uk)  operates a shop in the
north, but I can't recall the name of the town.  She is a lot of fun."

Well thank you Dan how ya' doin?

My shop is in Farnworth,a suburb of Bolton in what used to be Lancashire 
but 
is now Greater Manchester(spit).

After my tirade on the subject of UK home brewing(which appeared just 
after 
your post on this forum) people will be thinking I have a split
 personality.:-)

Home Brewing in the UK goes through cycles,as I'm sure it does everywhere.
When I first came into the trade some 16 years ago(ye gods is it really 
that 
long ago?)Corny's were going out of fashion and plastic barrels were 
in,brewing from grain was pass and hops were sold in Boots in thin
 plastic 
bags-brown, there were people didn't know hops should be green............
People didn't care as long as they could produce booze cheaply.
Now we have a swing back,Corny's are back in fashion grain sales are on 
the 
up and the hops in Boots(if the branch still stocks them) are erme  still
 brown.

Alas here there are too few home brewers who really care about what they 
are 
producing,granted the chaps on UK Homebrew do,but even If I had all their 
custom I would not be a rich woman.


Elizabeth

Thousands of miles from most of you but just 200 miles or so from Nigel 
Porter who regularly posts on here.


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:28:25 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Refrigerated yeast

Scott Johnson posted to the HBD asking about reusing yeast stored in
his refrigerator for a coulple of months without many details of the storage
container, conditions, etc.

I regularly store yeast in heat-sterilized, capped beer bottles under fully
fermented-out wort in my refrigerator.  (These stored yeast come from other
starters that were carefully cultured to avoid contamination, not from the
dregs of a full batch fermentation.)  I have often recultured these yeast
for starters after storage for over 12 months with no problems as far as I
can tell.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:27:57 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: BYO Magazine

Thanks to all who replied to my post re. a subscription offer from BYO
Magazine.  General concensus: less technical, more basics-oriented.  I'll
stick with buying the occasional BT.  

Cheers,

Greg


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:53:10 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: AHA problems (before the firing)

I don't know if something like this was part of the cause of Brian Rezac's
firing. My homebrew club, the Green Bay Rackers, have been attempting for the
past two years to get our annual competition AHA-sanctioned. Both years the
response from the AHA has been abysmal. The last year, we were willing to grin
and bear it, because Amdahl (sp?) resigned right about then so we didn't know
that our communications were falling on non-present ears. The AHA (Brian?)
offered free sanctioning this year, so we were willing to try again.

This year the same problem occurred. The judging information was given to us
way too late to be of practical use. Several judges commented that they would
have liked to judge our competition--if only they had known earlier. In an
attempt to preserve our competition czar's sanity, we have voted to go with
BJCP sanctioning next year. Let's face facts, folks, sending our sanctioning
materials isn't exactly rocket science. If they can't get that straight, what
can they do?

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:19:05 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: CO2 equation source


The source is Cliff Tanner in the Summer 1994 issue of Zymurgy (did I
just say a naughty word?) in an article titled, "Gas Gossip - Nitrogen
vs. Carbon Dioxide in Brewing".

Cheers,

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

- ------------------------------------
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 "Santerre, Peter  (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
>Subject: CO2 Charts / Seattle Brews / Skunky Boil?
>
>This is a formula that I came across (can't recall where, but if you
>know it's yours feel free to lay claim to it) while surfing around.
>
>Pressure =      (-16.6999) - (0.0101059 * Temperature) + 
>                (0.00116512 * (Temperature * Temperature)) + 
>                (0.173354 * Temperature * Volume) + 
>                (4.24267 * Volume) - (0.0684226 * (Volume * Volume));
>(All non-metric)



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:43:19 +0000
From: kurt at greennet.net (Kurt Goodwin)
Subject: re: Brian's firing

Paul Gatza wrote:

"I terminated Brian Rezac's employment from the AHA yesterday."

"Brian's amazing interpersonal skills did not, unfortunately, transfer
into the administrative realm."

"There is more to the picture than the homebrew-community-building work
Brian is so successful at...

I have received several e-mails from members who have decided not to
renew their memberships over this issue.... But it is because I work for
the members that I had to make a change to protect the interests of the
members who
entrust us with dues to promote the hobby of homebrewing and run
programs for homebrewers."

As someone who is not a member of any of these organizations, generally
only lurks on the digest and has no personal ties to any of the people
involved here, please allow me a simple observation.

There may well be a good reason you had to let him go.  Sounds like
you're missing a point though.  A number of your customers / members are
looking for something that only he seemed to be providing.  Rather than
implying that everyone would understand if they only knew, I suggest you
need to listen to that input and address it.  It would appear that a
number of relatively devoted disciples to this art are, in fact, much
more interested in "homebrew-community-building work" than whatever
"promote the hobby of homebrewing and run programs for homebrewers"
means.

The list of businesses that went down the drain because the owner felt
that the customers just didn't get it is quite long.

Slainte

Kurt Goodwin


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:53:10 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: careful


Hi Gary D Hipple (HBD 3091),

Though I do agree with you, I don't consider it to be in great
taste to post a personal Email to a public forum.  Not only that,
but I'm pretty sure it's very illegal in the USA, as Email is considered
to be part of a private conversation, and you can only publicize
a private conversation with permission of all participants.  Up here
in Canada it is not illegal because we only require the permission
of one of the participants (or was that the other way around,
I don't recall now ;-)).  

At least, as far as my armchair-law goes ;-)

BTW, Paul said it was a "personnel" matter, not a "personal"
matter.  I suggest you haul out the Webster's, as the two are
entirely different things.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:09:00 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: newby 1st posting

Hello HBD forum,
  
  I'm Jett and I'm a newby (to homebrewing and particularly to 
  this venue)
  who hasn't (yet) progressed from partial mash to all grain. 
  From
  perusing the last six digest issues, I expect to be flamed, 
  but I'm
  thick-skinned and will procede.
  
  1) Does anyone have any ale recipes/experience using grits 
  as an
  adjunct?  I added some to a batch that very luckily turned 
  out great,
  but I don't know why or how I was blessed. Definitely, I 
  need more
  expert advice. 
  
  2) The caution in HBD#3090 (from Stephan Alexander) 
  concerning tobacco
  product use to eliminate Japanese Beetle infestation of hop 
  plants,
  brought to mind a suggestion.
    Although Tobacco Mosaic Virus is undeniably a very 
  persistent and
  stable entity, if the activity of tobacco products as a 
  'natural'
  insecticide is based on the nicotine (or nicotinic acid) 
  component ofthe
  product, then I suggest (without any real support) that the 
  mode of
  preparation of the solution used for insecticidal 
  application can
  effectively eradicate (kill) any existing virus population. 
  
  Here's my idea:  Take a cheap cigar and place in 2 quarts of 
  boiling
  water.  After about twenty minutes of boil skim off all the 
  tobacco
  solids and keep boiling to reduce the solution to about one 
  fifth of
  original volume. Transfer this hot solution to a separate 
  container. 
  You have just prepared a very powerful respiratory poison, 
  so extreme
  rinsing of the boiling vessel is definitely called for 
  (small children
  and pets are particularly sensitive to concentated nicotine 
  residues).
  The concentrated extract should be microwaved for several 
  minutes
  (longer would facilitate side reactions rendering the 
  nicotine
  ineffective as an insecticide, I think) to kill any 
  surviving tobacco
  mosaic virus still extant. PLEASE WEAR rubber gloves when 
  handling this
  extract as nicotine will be absorbed through the skin, 
  particularly in
  high concentration.  Dilute to about two US gallons with 
  water and
  spray. Prior to harvesting (assuming weeks after 
  application), hop
  plants should be well rinsed each day for several days to 
  remove any
  residual, surface contamination of nicotine.  If there are 
  any
  agricultural virologist who can document the virus' ability 
  to survive
  prolonged boiling + microwave energy in an active state, let 
  me know and
  I will profusely retract and  discredit my suggestion.
  
  3) Lastly, I have a sincere request that anyone who has any 
  information
  or insight into reproducing John Smith's (non-exported) most 
  excellent
  Extra Smooth Bitter from Tadcaster, Yorkshire, England, 
  please let me
  know.  This brewery was founded by Samuel Smith's brother 
  way back and
  is a truly non-pareil bitter. My absolute favorite beverage.  
  I bribe my
  my mother-in-law to hand carry on the plane a 4-pack back 
  from England
  for me every 2-3 years.  Wish I could get more, so I'll have 
  to work on
  reproducing a pale imitation. Next year, I'll go to 
  Yorkshire again and
  get my own.
  
  
  Hoppily submitted,
  
  Jett Jerome
  Ooltewah, TN
  jkjerome at bellsouth.net


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:42:59 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: How long is YOUR hose?

In 3091 Dave Burley ponders about hose length.

I find myself kind of suprized at Dave's bewonderment on the
hose-length issue, as I've always thought him to be a fairly 
experienced brewer (much more so than myself, in fact), and 
this is an extremely well-documented area (Miller is the first 
place I'd encountered it).  I don't mean that as a personal attack 
of any sort whatsoever, and I still think Dave a more experienced 
brewer than myself.  I'm just expressing my own bewonderment 
that such an experienced brewer would have never come across 
this before.  Oh well, everything has it's first time, and I'm sure 
there's plenty of stuff we've all never encountered yet, but
will eventually.

It seems fairly obvious that the inside of the hose is going to 
cause friction with the beer, and thus resistance.  More resistance, 
more energy is lost (in the form of carbonation).  Longer hose means 
more resistance, so less foam.  Not only does length matter, but so
does hose composition.  Obviously different materials will cause
different levels of friction, exactly like how rubbing silk on
your hand feels different than rubbing wool on it.  

As for hose diameter, I can assure Dave that this is not "a new 
variable".  In my limited knowledge of physics it is a simple case
that a narrower diameter will have more surface-area per volume
than a larger diameter, so more contact per volume with the inside
of the hose, so more resistance, so less foam.  That much has
always seemed fairly obvious to me.

The only thing I'm not clear on here is what counter-effect on foam is 
experienced because the narrower diameter will mean the beer
should travel faster through the hose, at a higher pressure.  At least
according to my recollection of the grade 11 physics I took some
15 years ago.  (I'm recalling the picture of the pipe of diameter X,
which then goes down to diameter X/2, then back up to X.  The
liquid in X/2 would - according to the authors of the textbook -
move faster and be under higher pressure, then it would go back
down again when the diameter went back up to X).  I'd be interested
to hear from a REAL physicist or better yet fluid-dynamicists 
(much unlike myself) as to whether or not this 
would apply to our hoses.

Unfortunately most of the discussions I've seen spoke mainly to
the matter of length, but it always occured to me - as it seems to 
Dave - that diameter should have a significant effect, too, for 
exactly the same reason that a small pot of hot water cools more
quickly than a large pot of hot water.  (Surface area per volume)

This is all airchair physics at it's worst, and to be certain I'm probably 
using the wrong terms in several places.  But I think it is nonetheless
both understandable, as well as accurate according to the various
places I've read about it (Miller being the only one which springs
to mind immediately).  It is also accurate according to my own
experience in setting up my own kegs (the length issue).  I've never
done much playing around with hoses of different diameters or
compositions, so I've never been able to confirm/refute my 
thoughts and what I'd read on those.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:00:32 -0500
From: "William B. Howard" <wbhoward at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re:  Indianapolis Brewpubs and Three Floyds Brewery

Mark,

Here is a list of brewpubs in Indianapolis:

Broad Ripple Brewpub
Circle V Brewing Co.
Alcatraz Brewing Co.
Rock Bottom Brewery
The Oaken Barrel
Wildcat Brewing Co.

The Broad Ripple Brewpub is my personal favorite.  All of their beers =
are great.  Circle V no longer has a restaurant , but you can still sit =
at the bar and have a great beer.  Alcatraz and Rock Bottom probably =
have the best food.

Three Floyds is in Hammond, Indiana, which is just a few miles away from =
Chicago.  Let me know if you need any information more information

Bill Howard
wbhoward at ix.netcom.com





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:21:04 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Mills

From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>

"As far as gap in concerned, try real hard to make it adjustable.  There
is no way that you can find a compromise gap that will perform equally well
with English 2 row and American 6 row to say nothing about wheat and rye.

There are those who continue to say such things but having over 7000
pre-adjusted MM's in the field, I would expect to hear such complaints
from said users.  However, it seems that the only folks who make such
claims either have a vested interest in making them or are rationalizing
their purchase of an adjustable mill.

"If you decide to go with a fixed gap, you should realize that any so
called "optimun" will be dependent on the knural and probably also the
diameter.

By that you mean over all design.  If it is done correctly, it will work.
With our design, we find that .045" is the optimal (no quotes) setting.

"It is not necessary to drive both rolls, the grain will transmit power to
the slave roll.

That again depends on the design and mainly on the roller diameter and
type of knurl.  The larger the passive roller,  the more forgiving it is.

"Some see an advantage in driving them at different  speeds.

This never made much sense to me, in fact, it seems like it would be harder
on husks.  However, as someone once said it and our Gear Drive Option
turns out that way, we are not bashful about claiming it as a "feature".

If I were building a single mill for my own use, I would certainly include
the
use of gears to actively drive the "passive" roller.  It's hard to justify
the
additional cost for mass production but it really is the right way to do it.

"I don't know for sure, but I will bet that knurling stainless would be a
pain.

We have been knurling our stainless rollers for 8 years with only nominal
change in the machine setup when switching from mild steel to stainless.
Of course, we do the knurling on $200,000 machines that do nothing else,
not a common lathe.

Interestingly, our sales of SS rollers have dwindled drastically since we
introduced the case hardened rollers.  These seem to last forever in
a commercial, high volume environment and we have never had to replace
a set.  Mild steel, no matter what it is plated with and stainless do have a
limited life under heavy use.  Again, if I were building a one-up for my own
use, I would certainly send the rollers out for heat treating.

js

Beer page:    http://user.mc.net/arf



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:51:15 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: a different spin

Let's say the IRS came and audited the AOB and decided they are not a
hobbyist organization.  so they take away the 501c3 status and decide the
AOB is a trade assoc. and assign them a 501c6 status.  So now Zymurgy can't
be mailed at nonprofit rates.  So the magazine gets thinner to save
postage.  And let's say the IRS denies nonprofit status for the GABF and
requires the AOB to pay back taxes.  Now let's see the AOB put their spin
on this one. :-)

Jim Liddil




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:18:22 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Hot water canning and the demise of the AHA?


Hi Dave Burley

The following is IMHO,

I too am concerned about the technical aspects of canning that are discarded
by home brewers.  My home canner pressure cooker is supposed to be checked
each year by the USDA Extension Office to assure that the pressure gauge is
accurate.  The bot spores must be heated in a moist environment, free of
air, for 20 minutes with a pressure of 15 pounds.  This assures that the
canned veggies were processed properly.  Some users still prefer to boil the
canned beans for 20 minutes before consumption.  Keep in mind that just
putting the tip of your pinky in a jar contaminated with the bot spore and
touching it to your lips IS LETHAL - Bob Uhl, don't cash that life insurance
policy in and I'd like to be a beneficiary.  The spores are really tough
critters and take a lot to destroy.  As soon as they vegetate, the toxin is
there.  A pin head of the toxin is enough to kill every resident of New
York.  Additionally, honey contains bot and spores!  Never heard of mead
being toxic; however, a reduced acid mead might just .  .  .

All this said, acidifying the veggies might be a viable alternative.  Use at
least a teaspoon of lemon juice or vinegar per pint.  Although tomatoes are
supposed to be acid enough to do hot water canning, non-acid tomatoes are
becoming very common.  Using hot water canning techniques could invoke the
payout of the life insurance policy.   I add lemon juice or vinegar to all
of my canned veggies just to be sure.

On another subject, bashing/trashing the AHA, I find the subject offensive.
The rationale for firing an employee will never be publicized and the real
truth won't be presented by the fired employee.  I belong to AHA and have
for many years.  I read the Zymurgy bimonthly and special issues.  I've
brewed several C. Papazian brews.  One such brew won a 1st and a third best
of show at the Spirit of Free Beer competition.  I find it particularly
offensive when one individual has promoted home brewing and been successful
at encouraging it as a hobby.  Boycott AHA?  Every boycott I've seen has
backfired on the participants.   Take the  beef boycott a decade or so ago.
It takes 4 years to bring a beef animal to market.  Many growers went broke
due to the boycott.  Yes, it was effective!  However, the price of beef
nearly doubled and the growers cut the number of animals to limit their
potential loss.  Imported beef to the rescue.  Another American industry
sent abroad.  Chickens to the Olympics, Caterpillar and Nat. Gas.

So, who will be the central focus for home brewing in the United States?  A
fired employee starts a new organization to replace AHA?   Not if I have
anything to say about it!!!

                                                    Joy"T"Brew



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:38:14 GMT
From: delgado at communique.net (Mr Delgado)
Subject: Brewing English ales...

I'm seeking advice for achieving the "English ale flavor" of my
favorite commercial English ales -- Spitfire, Bishop's Finger,
Fuller's ESB, Old Peculiar, Whitbread, etc. I'm talking about that
woody, minerally profile, along with the nice English hop flavor/aroma
(from Fuggles and Goldings?).

More specifically, what are the appropriate types of malts, hops,
yeast, water profile, mash schedule, etc.? I'm not looking for a
specific recipe (bitter, ESB, IPA, etc.) -- rather, I'm trying to
replicate (or at least understand) the common elements between these
recipes that gives these ales a flavor like no other.

I'd like to hear from you brewers who have captured this taste in your
English ales. (I hope my request is reasonably clear.) Thanks in
advance for any suggestions you may have...

John


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:18:30 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject:  Brewer's Worksheet by Darryl Richman

I obtained an Excel spreadsheet for brewer's entitled "Brewer's Worksheet",
by Darryl Richman off the internet a few years ago.  I don't recall where I
got the spreadsheet but would like to communicate with Darryl Richman about
it.  Does anybody know how I might find this person?  Are you out there
Darryl?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:57:42 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: raspberry or woodruff syrup in a berliner weiss

In response to Dick Dunn's query, I can confirm that when I 
was in Berlin, I was served berliner weiss with either 
raspberry syrup (sweetened) or woodruff syrup.  The result 
is a little bit soda pop like (perhaps I got too much of a 
dash of syrup), and I preferred the woodruff to the 
raspberry.  That said, give the raspberry juice a try--it 
might be better than the syrup, being less sweet.  Perhaps 
a shot of raspberry juice in a Bavarian weizen might also 
be good, with the tartness of the raspberry juice 
substituting for the tartness of the beer.

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:44:41 EDT
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: Thank you Paul.....

 ....Gatza, for coming forward with an explanation for Brian's departure.  
With all the AHA bashing going on, I was just about to post a request to hear 
the other side when you replied.  I don't know Brian ....... I'm sure he's as 
nice and dedicated as everyone says he is ....... but that doesn't 
necessarily translate into a productive employee.  Obviously, there was some 
valid reason to let him go, and as a business the AHA has every right to 
manage it's personnel as they see fit.  As electronic bystanders we can 
postulate and preach all we want, but we're not pushing the AHA paperwork 
everyday.

I also take issue with the poster bashing Paul for "trashing" a former 
employee in public.  Paul's original post to the HBD was necessary to address 
the rhetoric from the uninformed and lacked details in consideration of an 
internal personnel manner.  The other post with more details was copied, 
probably without permission, from the Techtalk forum on the AHA website -- 
*An AHA Member-Only forum*.   I believe members, like shareholders, are due 
more details than the general public.  Again, Paul did not post the details 
to the HBD, someone else leaked it.  

By the way, I don't know Paul either.  I'm just an innocent bystander.
********************
There was a recent post asking for opinions on the brewing magazines 
available.  I subscribe to all three.  Here's my take: 
Brew Your Own - $29.95 for 12 issues.  If I was a beginner and had to choose 
one, this would be it.  Good info. & entertaining reading.
Brewing Techniques - $33 for 6 issues.  Intermediate to advanced brewers.  
Very good if you're all grain brewing or thinking about it.
Zymurgy - $33 for 5 issues.  Beginner to advanced.  Not as good as it used to 
be, but I still learn things from it.  I'll probably renew, but frankly they 
need to put out more issues with more info.   I don't consider the price a 
membership, I consider it a subscription and that's how I value it.  However, 
you do have to admit that the other publications do not organize 
competitions, do not organize conferences, and do not act as a repository of 
state laws for homebrewing.  You can't deny that the AHA has advanced the 
hobby of homebrewing.  Could they do more?  Sure.  If you can do better, go 
for it.  If I see benefit and value, I'll buy.  Simple as that.

Something else to think about:  if we can't make up pet names for ourselves 
like Dr. Pivo, shouldn't we also ban the backyard brewery names that appear 
in signature lines?  Being the headbrewer of a 5 gallon stovetop extract 
system is certainly less credible than someone who actually makes a living 
selling their beer.  

That's all.  Flame shield On.

Bill Wright



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:19:24 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: How long is YOUR hose?

Brewsters:

Alan McKAy's "bewonderment" at my supposed
bewonderment on the hose length issue really
has me bewondering if he read what I wrote.  {8^)

He and I basically agree, I think. I just disagree
on the  bad information ( he attributes to Miller -
I don't know) perpetuating ( or originating)
the hard-to-kill idea that a certain length of hose
has a certain pressure drop per foot as some sort
of basic physical parameter is not a new idea,
but I see it keeps cropping up in discussions
here as though it were true.  Balderdash!!

Here is my opinion of what flow dynamics and
hose length and  foam control is all about:

The pressure drop per foot of a hose (through
which a liquid is <flowing>, by the way) is the
pressure differential at the ends divided by the
hose length. If the fluid is not flowing in the hose,
but the hose is filled and stopped at the exit with
a valve, the pressure is the same at both ends
and that is the head pressure. The diameter
and the various restrictions in the hose control
 the <flow rate>.  Using a longer hose will
automatically slow the flow, such that the pin
valve ( cobra head) controls a lower
percentage of the flow and the pressure drop
across this valve is lower and reduces the
chance of " breakout." Thereby reducing
the chance of foam. A longer hose, a
smaller diameter hose, restricted or wound
hose or a different kind of delivery valve
( large diameter when open and gate
valve in design) should ameliorate the
foam problem.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:48:01 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Repitching yeast / Seattle

REPITCHING YEAST---
James Scott Johnson writes:

> I have a couple of yeasts stored in my refrigerator in flasks.  One has
> been stored for a few weeks and the other a couple of months.  I have
> not added fresh wort since racking from the fermentors.  I was wondering
> if these yeast are still good to use? There seems to be no off aromas
> when smelling them.  Should I use them or pitch them down the drain?

Ideally, that yeast was reclaimed from the bottom of a primary fermenter,
washed with sterile water, and stored in the refrigerator under water. The
Wyeast Labs web site says that clean yeast can be stored under a layer of
sterile water for up to 1 month refrigerated. That's probably a stingy
recommendation.

I'd definitely make a starter with the older yeast just to see how it
performs. You could probably use 2-week old yeast even if it has been stored
under spent wort.


SEATTLE---
Peter Santerre writes:

> chris at northernbrewer.com
> >My condolences. Seattle isn't really known for beer. ;)
>
> Condolences? Bah!   Just because a city isn't KNOWN for
> beer, doesn't mean there isn't good beer there.
   [SNIP]

Let me rephrase that for those using smiley-face disabled mailreaders:

<facetious>My condolences. Seattle isn't really known for beer.</facetious>

According to Michael Jackson, in Seattle and Portland "micro-brewed beers are
more widely available in ordinary bars and restaurants than anywhere else in
America"  (1994 Pocket Guide to Beer). I ain't never been there, but I know
more than a few beer-lovers who went to visit and never returned.

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:47:09 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Paul Gatza Aired In Public

Now I really should try and get these posts in before I over-indulge in such
special brews as my friend's  Classic Australian Pilsner, because I usually
make some sort of stuff up as Nurse M923 has pointed out to me. So correct
me if I am wrong. It seems to me that I have read one explanation by Paul
Gatza to the HBD regarding the firing of Brian Rezac, and it seems that I
have read what appear to be private emails from Paul to whoever. I
understand what a sensitive issue this is and that everyone is extremely
angry. It would seem to me from afar that the AHA is shooting torpedoes up
it's own orifice in an effort to self combust. But in fairness to Paul I
don't think his personal explanations should be copied in to this public
forum. I did such a thing once and realized afterwards it was in poor form.
That aside, the case for forming an IHA seems to be getting stronger.

Eric Fouch For President

Phil Yates.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:39:34 -0500
From: Bruce & Amber Carpenter <alaconn at arkansas.net>
Subject: Vendor question

Greetings,

Has anyone had experience ordering from Beer, Beer & More Beer in
Concord, CA? I am interested in ordering from them, but being out here
in the wilds of south Arkansas, I have no way of visiting them
personally. Any comments?

Thanks!
Bruce Carpenter


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:40:23 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Pasteur effect?

A while back when discussing long lag times with
Nottingham yeast I brought up the possibility that
aeration was prolonging the growth phase and
delaying the onset of fermentation. I was rebuffed
quite soundly with several people mentioning that
this doesn't happen anytime the wort glucose is
above 0.1 Plato.
  Now in #3091 AJ says...
>> and by continuous application of
oxygen it is held in growth phase.<<
  hmmm, makes me wonder.

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:44:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: What to do with AHA membership money

There's been lots of posts about canceling memberships to the AHA.  I
encourage and support the idea of creating a new homebrew organization.
However, I bet that is easier said than done.  Here is something that you
could do today to support something that helps your homebrewing:  send
moeny to the Digest Fund.  Make a check payable to Pat Babcock and mail
to: 

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

All the financial records are clearly presented on the hbd web site.  
What does an AHA membership cost?  Around $35?  Send that to the HBD
instead of the AHA.  

Brew On,
Adam Holmes



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:08:58 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: AHA, etc.

I will be more charitable than Jim Kingsberg.

I believe that the AHA was begun with noble purposes in mind (the
spreading of our beloved hobby to the masses and the subsequent
education of those same masses).  I believe that TNCJOHB is a good book
and I recommend it to people starting out (not the only book, of
course).  I believe that Charlie embarked on a mission to improve a lot
of people's lives by spreading the homebrew gospel.

The problem is that the creature that was brought to life in the 80's
has morphed and mutated into something unrecognizeable.

I would still like to see the AOB/AHA recreated with all of our mutual
goals in mind, coupled with an open relationship with their members and
the rest of the industry.  The infrastructure is there, the resources
are there, and the talent (no, I'm not talking about the folks currently
presiding over the AOB/AHA) is available.

And I will agree with Jim that such an organization (either a brand new
one or a new AHA) would be welcome and happily supported by us.

Pual, you obviously monitor and sometimes post here.  I'd like to ask
you to respond to the massive discontent (of which I have only recently,
within the past couple of days, become a part).  I understand employment
issues, but I don't understand the closed mouth way that they governing
body of this membership-based organization operates.

Rick




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:14:17 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Cincinnati Keg Off

I remember hearing about a brew contest in Cincinnatti that is based on Keg
beers.  Mostly home brews and brew clubs participate but the big boys show
up, too.  Anybody know when that "party" is held.

- --
So you wanna make beer, Visit me at http://fast.to/beer




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:09:13 +0200
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: Maillard reactions/pCooking/boiling

Steve shared some insights into his current thinking on Maillard reactions.

I tried a quick small mash (aimed at producing around 1 UK Gallon of wort)
by sticking my pot in the oven, with the control set at 150F. The (electric)
oven is fan assisted. The pot itself got way above 150F, but after stirring
the settled temperature was reasonably close. Most interesting was the
"skin" that formed on the top and got stirred back in....

A nice malty (IMO) test brew resulted. I think I feel the need to further
examine this phenomenon.

I'm not sure if "baking" a full scale mash under these conditions would be
an ideal proposition, however as Steve suggests, I could always pull a
decoction.

Keep 'em coming.....

Regards,
Paul Campbell 
e-mail: Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com


Return to table of contents

---