---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  (Fwd) Beer ("Braam Greyling")
  Building better judges (BioCoat)
  Small grist mills (Lizardhead)
  RE: evap cooling ("Kensler, Paul")
  Personnel, not Personal (uhlb)
  Wort's in a name? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Freezing Malt (wrust)
  Brian ("Paul Niebergall")
  RE: Brian Brew Ha Ha ("Timothy Green")
  Nicotine Sulfate Poison (WayneM38)
  No-Sparge, One-penny Beer &c. (uhlb)
  re: Long Serving Lines (Jeff)
  Who'se Brian? ("Jack Schmidling")
  Sanitation question ("Chris Hebert")
  Denaturing-- Temp vs. Thermal Mass ("Eric R. Theiner")
  So What Do You Want? ("Eric R. Theiner")
  The IHA (Eric.Fouch)
  glycol for product heat transfer & MBAA TQ article (Laurel Maney)
  easy basements (Jeff Renner)
  Driving grain mills & 55 gal drum pump for malt extract (wkolb)
  origin of CO2 chart and formula (Alan Edwards)
  Beetle Control ("Humphrey,Patrick")
  Basement Dig ("Humphrey,Patrick")
  pressure drop in hoses, or, who is eddy viscosity, anyway? ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Re:  Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands (stencil)
  AHA and Competetor ("Rick Wood")
  BT and Beetles (Jerry Berry)
  Re: CAP- corn (Jeff Renner)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:02:35 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: (Fwd) Beer

Hi all,

A friend of mine asked this question. Maybe you can help.

Regards

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:           	"Pitchford, Andrew" <Andrew.Pitchford at hulamin.co.za>
To:             	"'Braam Greyling'" <braam.greyling at azona.co.za>
Subject:        	Beer
Date sent:      	Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:58:47 +0200

Hi Braam,
I wonder if you can help me with this one? I bottle my beer in these 500ml
plastic bottles you get cool drinks in these days. Thet are either clear or
green and I have some brown ones I got from the brewery in Nottingham Road.
I re-use the caps which are from various sources such as coke, sprite etc. I
wash the caps and bottles in dilute caustic solution, rinse and then soak in
iodophor solution. Lastly I rinse thoroughly (3 or 4 times) under the hot
tap (disinfected with ethanol) in my kitchen. I think this works fairly well
because I don't think I get bacterial infection. 
The beer (Pale Ale) tastes pretty good and my friends think it's great. But
I can detect a distinct "off-flavour" of something that I can't identify.
It's not bad but it does just spoil my overall enjoyment of the beer. I get
a good head but the beer is a little cloudy. I don't usually use a secondary
fermenter and I don't use finings. When I bottle I siphon into a 25 litre
container with a tap at the bottom and mix in 250 ml of sugar solution
(boiled) for priming. I mix the beer and sugar by slowly turning the
container over a few times. I think I get it mixed ok beacause all bottles
are equally conditioned. The odd thing is that I get one or two bottles in a
25 litre batch that are absolutely perfect. Last night I opened one in a
brown bottle with a coke cap that was crystal clear and tasted excellent. It
had a sort of caramel/toffee taste.
I am puzzled about why only a coulple of bottles should be so good. It could
it be that most bottles are not properly cleaned but I think I treat them
all the same. Do you think that I am getting oxygen in the bottles when I
fill? I just open the tap and let the beer run down the side of the bottle
and stop about an inch from the top. I have read about attaching a length of
plastic tube to the tap that will reach the bottom of the bottle and filling
to half an inch from the top.
Another thought I had was that some of the bottles may be allowing more
oxygen in than others and therefore spoiling the beer.
By the way I am only assuming that oxygen is the problem because I can't
think of any other reason.
Please let me know if you have any ideas,
Thanks,
Andrew
**************************************

Thanks


   



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:14:59 EDT
From: BioCoat at aol.com
Subject: Building better judges

The primary purpose for the BJCP is to provide a vehicle for the training and 
continuous improvement of judges.  With regard to the improvement aspect, 
this is best achieved through actual judging.  What will typically happen at 
a competition is a lead judge will be paired with a less experienced one.  
Conceptually this is fine, however, I feel that it often falls short of its 
goal due to one of the following 1) the lead judge may or may not actually be 
that experienced or 2) the lead judge may not take the time to provide 
adequate feedback to the new judge.  Certainly the lead judge does not 
typically read the new judges' scoresheet which may slip by with inaccurate 
statements.

In an attempt to further improve new and experienced judges I have a very 
simple solution which I feel can provide real improvement; when the 
scoresheets are returned to the brewer, include a list of the judges at the 
competition as well as their contact information.  I often will enter a good 
beer 5 or more times a year.  This gives me a real good picture as to where I 
stand, as well as which judges are off base.  A simple communication to the 
judge in question could give him the necessary feedback so that he could go 
back and study the problem area.  The converse of this is good feedback to 
those that are doing a good job.  

I don't claim to have invented this concept, good judges (Al K. for example) 
recognized the importance of feedback and either stamp or handwrite their 
contact information.  What do you guys think of this idea? 

Rick Georgette    


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 99 09:18:44 -0600
From: Lizardhead <memerson at fone.net>
Subject: Small grist mills

Fellow Brewers,  

I seek opinions, of which I'm sure there is no shortage here, as to which 
small grain mill gives the best grist, and is adjustable for a variety of 
grain types.  I have a reputable commercial mill, but because I am 
dealing with such a great variety of grains in relatively small amounts, 
I find that constantly adjusting my mill becomes impractical.  I need 
approx. 20 pounds of grain to get the settings where I want them, and 
since I'm pilot brewing with a grist charge of about 20#,  I end up 
throwing too much malt away.  I'm looking for suggestions as to the best 
brands, suppliers, etc.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Mark Youngquist
Technical Director
Rock Bottom Breweries  


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:26:02 -0500
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: RE: evap cooling

Tom,
I use evaporative cooling all the time when I ferment.  I put my glass
carboy in a big tupperware bin (roughly 30"x18"x6"), fill the bin with
water, and cover the carboy with a tshirt.  In the summer (when its 100
degrees and humid here), I usually get about 5 degrees cooling.  Basically,
it cools the ferment just enough to make up for the increase in temperature
due to fermentation.  If I use a fan, I can get it up to maybe 7-8 degrees.
In the winter (when it gets REALLY dry here), I can get 10 degrees without
the fan.  The fact that you're getting 5 degrees cooling with the fan in
Alabama makes sense - its very humid there, and the higher the humidity the
less evaporation you will get (and therefore less evaporative cooling).

Since your temp probe is right inside the towel, it is measuring the
temperature of the cool water, not necessarily of the fermenting beer.  I
use those stick-on "fermometers" on my carboys to read the fermenting
temperature.  They seem pretty accurate.


Paul Kensler
Plano, TX



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:25:52 -0600 (MDT)
From: uhlb at cobank.com
Subject: Personnel, not Personal

Mr. Gatza said that it was a personnel matter, not a personal matter.
There's a big difference. Businesses are not free to comment on such
things for legal reasons (if he said more, it could be interpreted as
blacklisting and Rezac could sue).  As he's said before, Rezac was not
doing something or other appropriately as an employee.

That said, I've no idea who's right or wrong here.  I'm not a member of
the AHA (I've never had the spare cash), I don't know Messrs. Rezac or
Gatza, and I am unfamiliar with the organisation.  The one experience I've
had with them was professional and prompt (I requested membership
information).  My own opinion tends to give a bit more credit to CP and
the AHA than most do, but not much more.  I really don't know enough
firsthand to make an informed decision.

Bob Uhl



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Wort's in a name?


- ------------------------------
Joe Perrigoue responds about "Doctors"

>You should buy a better dictionary.
>From Websters:
>Doctor
>1 orig., a teacher or learned man 

What makes Webster's more authoritative than my Oxford dictionary in which the
priamry definintion is "Qualified medical practitioner; holder of
doctorate." ??  In the context of the ongoing Pivo discussion, I also like one
of the later definitions; "tamper with."

>...that I have been following this list there has been an incredible amount
>of easily checked misinformation posted. Really folks, it only takes a 
>few minutes to check something that is a question of fact, not opinion.

Lighten up. Drink a homebrew.

>"No one ever had Colonel Sanders arrested for pretending to be a military 
>officer, nor is Doc Severinson in danger of prosecution for impersonating 
>a physician." - John Bear

Here, I would agree that these are obvious appropriations of the titles (more
so than were the "pivas"). Also, I don't believe that Sanders ever gave out
military advice or Severinson medical advice!

    We now return you to our regularly scheduled program...

 -Alan Meeker






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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:51:18 -0500
From: wrust at ralston.com
Subject: Freezing Malt

Hi all,

What effect would freezing have on malt?  I would think that it would kill
off (or severely inhibit) the enzymes needed for mashing.  Has anyone tried
this?




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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:06:03 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Brian

Concerning Brian's demise, Dave Houseman wrote:

>>It's amazing how some people on this forum just have to sound off on 
things
>>when they don't know the facts.

How true that is.  How can anyone tell anything at all about a persons job 
performance based on the exchange of e-mail or a brief encounter over a 
few home brews at a home brew event?   

First off, I have to question Brian's motive when he posted his anouncement
 to the HBD.  Something about "not burning bridges" comes to mind.  Always 
good advice.  Take it from someone who has been "let go" on a few 
occassions: You gain nothing from a sour grapes attitude or whining (or 
posting something that starts a whine fest for you).

Unfortunatley, being a nice guy, good brewer, or being willing to answer 
peoples questions has nothing to do with job performance.  If someone is 
paying you to do a job it is up to you to perform up to the employer's 
standards.  No disrepect intended here but Brian, get a job.  And the rest 
of you, get over it.

Dr. Beer


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:04:55 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <timgreen at eriecoast.com>
Subject: RE: Brian Brew Ha Ha

Dave Houseman writes:

>It's amazing how some people on this forum just have to sound off on things
>when they don't know the facts.  Do you just like to see your thoughts in
>print?  When the AHA had problems in organizing the NHC in Boston, some
>folks here took them to task!  When there were a number of competitions
>without BJCP points recorded, the AHA got the worst of the comments.  But
>when Paul took corrective action, again there's stupid calls for boycotts.
>Let me ask those that want to stumble about in the dark what they would do?
>The AHA staff is down to two full time people (although there is some
>support staffs in the AOB).  Organization isn't working out like it is
>supposed to be.  So what do they do?  Can't afford to hire more people.
>It's an unfortunate business decision that Paul took but a courageous one.
>Personally, I really like Brian as well.  He's the sort of people we want
in
>the hobby and in the AHA.  But if the AHA is to help their members by
>providing the services you want, then they have to have the ability to
staff
>accordingly to make that happen.  Get all the facts, then think about it
>before sounding off....

Dave, if the AHA is going to stand in the position that they are the main
organization that has accepted sponsership of an event like the NHC Boston
then they are the ones who should take the heat when something goes wrong.

I haven't joined the AHA because they haven't seemed to provide any services
that would have been of use to me, nor did they seem to have the homebrewing
community's best interest in mind. I have only been brewing for a couple of
years, so I don't know what the AHA may have been like in the past, I can
only judge them now, and I currently judge them to be an organization that
does not provide enough services that are of use to me for me to be willing
to pay out any of my hand earned money.

The fact seems to be that the AHA can't afford to hire more staff because
they provide a sub-standard magazine, (I have seen issues from several years
ago that were excellent), offer few services that support the individual
homebrewer, and when they do get someone working for them who is willing to
stick his neck out, they cut it off!

If they were more responsive to homebrewer needs and attempted to address
them, hung on to the good people they had and separated membership dues from
magazine subsctiption money, they might get more members.

As was pointed out in at leas one other post, probationary periods are
normally 30-90 days, not 6-12 months. It seems that if there were
organizational problems, then the manager in charge, (Paul), should have
taken an earily proactive action, not let the problem drag on and on. (which
is poor management practice by the way)

Tim



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:32:14 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Nicotine Sulfate Poison

>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:45:05 -0600 (MDT)
From: uhlb at cobank.com
Subject: Tobacco Mosaic & Canning

I'd not heard of the tobacco mosaic issue with using nicotine as a garden
poison.  I've been using this method for years with stale pipe tobacco and
not had a single problem.  OTOH, I've not really used it for aught in the
nightshade family.  Perh. it's an issue with the cheaper products such as
cigarettes (wh. are mostly chemicals and paper IIRC anyway).  Or perh.
I've just been lucky.  Maybe I'll plant a tomato to see...<<

Ever notice that there is not a commercially available tobacco based 
pesticide on the market?  Twenty plus years ago nicotine sulfate bombs were 
used in the greenhouse industry. You would close up the greenhouse, light 
them and run like hell. Killed everything, whitefly, aphids, birds etc. 
Tobacco mosaic was not mentioned at that time.
New federal regulations have tightened up labeling and pesticide use.

It was my understanding that nicotine based poisons do not have an effective 
antidote and were removed from the market.  More of a liability issue.

Be careful with that nicotine cocktail.

Don't panic on the pesticide application just yet.
The potato crop is one of the most sprayed agri. crops. and IIRC studies show 
that the potato plant can lose up to 30% of it's foliage before production 
drops.  Plant another hop vine for the beetles next year and you will be fine 
; )

Check out the demise of the hops industry on the East Coast because of 
insects at

http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/

It is in the hops section of this interesting brewing handbook from 1902.

Wayne


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:42:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: uhlb at cobank.com
Subject: No-Sparge, One-penny Beer &c.

I have seen in several sources that in the old days a brewer would make
three batches from one grain bill.  The first would be a no-sparge batch,
very thick and strong, called three-penny beer.  The grain would be
remashed, then a second batch would be sparged out, called two-penny
beer.  The grain would be mashed a third time and one-penny beer would
result.

Has anyone ever tried this?  Is my information accurate regarding this
procedure?  Some thoughts:

All of the starch should be converted by the end of the first mash.  In
addition, a mash-out would as I understand it denature the enzymes.  Thus
I am lead to believe that further mashes would serve only to better
dissolve the remaining sugars.

If oversparging can result in too many tannins, this could only exacerbate
the problem, unless there is some other component wh. I am overlooking.
Granted, the remashing would not be at boiling temps, but still...

I can see how a somewhat decent, if very thin, beer might be made with the
second running.  But the third running would have to be a nasty beer.  Or
am I missing something?

If someone has ever tried this, it would be interesting to hear your
results.  I am considering this procedure as a way to a) save money b) be
anachronistic and c) make beer to serve unliked guests :-).  Seriously,
it'd be nice to have a decent beer to drink twice a day and a good beer to
drink once a day.  All replies are of course appreciated.

Bob Uhl



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:17:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: re: Long Serving Lines

Hi All,

  Dave Burley, responding to Alan Edwards, recently wrote about long
serving line lengths.

>I have never tried adding great lengths of
>serving line  - but would welcome experimental
>results of foam height & lifetime versus line length
>and a new variable I discuss below - line diameter..
>Also, coiling the line may make a difference.

  I could go on and on about the technical aspects of hydraulic
resistance (since it's directly related to what I do for a living),
but I would'nt want to offend any of the non-technical brewers
reading the HBD.

  As has been discussed here in the past, the key to getting a decent
pour at high serving pressures is to have a *gradual* drop in pressure
from the keg to the tap.  Any *sudden* drops in pressure along the flow
path will cause the CO2 to suddenly come out of solution and cause
foaming.

>It  may be that the contol of the flow rate using the
>long tube is more gentle than a pin valve ( at which
>foam could break out) and could explain some
>observations of better foam control with longer
>hoses.

  This is exactly why beer lines with higher pressure losses produce
less foam.

  If there is not a gradual drop in pressure along the length of the
beer line, there will be a sudden drop in pressure at the tap and
hence foaming.

  Pressure losses in a straight, constant diameter pipe or tube are a
complex function of length, diameter, and surface roughness.  In simple
terms, higher pressure losses will result from longer lengths, smaller
diameters, and higher roughnesses.

  Any changes in diameter (contractions and expansions) or direction of
flow (turns) will also lead to pressure losses in pipes/tubes/ducts.

  Entire text books (gasp!) have been written on the subject of hydraulic
resistance.  Using these texts, you could *estimate* the losses along the
flow path and do comparisons of the effects of diameter, length, and
roughness.

>Personally, I cannot see how it would work,
>at least the way it has been explained in the  past
>(assigning some pressure drop per foot of line)
>makes absolutely no sense to me.

  The numbers for pressure drop per foot of line that are often quoted here
in the HBD are almost useless for setting up a kegging system.  These
numbers are determined at a constant flow rate or velocity and are only
useful for comparing one type of line to another.  A much better way of
specifying pressure losses would be to publish the loss coefficient (which
is relatively independent of the flow rate or velocity).

>Also Reynolds numbers ( a relationship
>between diameter, curves and such to allow
>a flow rate estimation are very dependent
>on the number of turns the fluid takes and
>it may be that the coiling ( tighter, looser
>versus a straight hose) will also slow flow.

  The Reynolds number of a flow is only a function of the fluid velocity
(and some constants that characterize the fluid).  I think that what Dave
meant here is the loss coefficient, not Reynolds number.

>It may be possible to use a shorter hose
>of convential diameter, but wind it on a
>form ( say 2" diameter dowel) to produce a
>tighly wound coil ( and pinching it somewhat
>besides) to produce the same effect without
>the long hose cleaning  and beer losses.

  Coiling the beer line will increase the pressure losses, but this effect
is secondary to the losses due to friction (and contractions/expansions).

  BTW, I use 15 feet of 3/16 inch ID tubing for my kegging setup (cobra
type taps and lines stored in the fridge).  I can serve at pressures up
to approx 20 PSI at 42F without excessive foaming.  For beer styles that
are less carbonated, I simply close the tap slowly at the end of the pour
to create the head.  This setup always produces a nice creamy head that
last all the way to the bottom of the pint.

                                                Hoppy brewing,

                                                Jeff


==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:17:29 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Who'se Brian?

I guess ignorance is bliss.  I had never heard of Brian till he got fired so
I can't get too excited about his passing.

Seems like this whole issue is a self-inflicted wound.  All the whining
about the AHA reminds me of a bunch of old ladies at a tea party.
If they really are such a terrible organization, there is an obvious
solution.

It's real easy not to be a member and therefore have nothing to complain
about.

The rub is, it's a lot harder to build another, better organization than to
just whine about the one someone else built.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME  http://user.mc.net/arf




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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:01:23 -0400
From: "Chris Hebert" <CRH at rflaw.com>
Subject: Sanitation question

We all know that things in the freezer can grow bacteria and fungi on 
them, but how much of a concern should this be.  To wit, if I take my 
quart PET bottles out of the freezer and use them to cool some wort 
without first dunking them in iodophor or some other cleansing solution, 
how much should I worry.  I'll accept anecdotal evidence as well as some 
hard data, if it's out there.  Is this a momily or something to be really 
concern over.



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:39:16 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Denaturing-- Temp vs. Thermal Mass

Paul asks further along the lines of beta amylase denaturing:

>My original point was this: if a thinner mash provides a greater amount

>of energy to the soup, and beta is more heat labile than alpha, then
wouldn't
>one expect a more ready denaturing of available beta v. available alpha

I'm sure you understand potential energy-- a big rock at the top of a
hill has higher potential energy than one at the bottom, and that
potential energy is "stored" through the process of expending energy to
take  it to the top.  i.e. you expended energy to roll that rock up the
hill and now that same amount of energy is stored in the rock as
potential, ready to be released when it rolls back down.  This is in
accordance with the fact that energy is neither created nor destroyed
(simplified statement, but it works here).

Temperature is a measure of energy.  In this case the energy is kinetic
on a molecular level-- as particles swirl through space and collide with
your thermometer, they impart a modicum of energy to the thermometer
which in turn reacts to show the energy it is accumulating-- it turns
the temperature dial.  The same amount of collisions will happen
whenever your thermometer reads 150 F.  That energy is the only useable
energy available at the time.

A higher thermal mass, in this case water, will store energy in the same
way that the rock does, and it will give it up over time, and eventually
give up more energy than a smaller thermal mass.  But unless you have a
temperature change, the useable energy is exactly the same, regardless
of thermal mass.

Now think about how an enzyme denatures-- it unravels, losing the shape
necessary to perform a given action.  Think of a key (which "unlocks"
starches) being melted so that it no longer can fit the lock.  That
denaturing effect is due to the number and frequency of collisions of
other molecular particles (again, I'm simplifying a bit).  Since the
only thing we are measuring as useable energy is the molecular kinetic
energy (as temperature), again, thermal mass simply does not come into
play.

Hope this helps clear up the denaturing situation.

One other thing-- denaturing is not instantaneous.  We have been
studying the effect of raising the temperature of solutions beyond the
stable temperature of an enzyme to see if we can "supercharge" them
before they are destroyed (rate of reaction increases with temp, of
course), and are getting some interesting results.  This is being
applied to the cleaning industry, of course, but I'm always thinking
about how these things apply to my fun in the brewhouse.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:39:25 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: So What Do You Want?

Now that there is a lot of open discontent with the AHA (more than there
has been, anyway), there is word of starting up an organization which, I
assume, "will be better."

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate and ask some simple questions:

 -What would such an organization do?
 -Why would anyone want to be part of said organization?
 -What would the benefits be?
 -What would differentiate this organization from the AHA?
 -How would such an organization be governed?
 -How would this organization be established?
 -How would this organization recruit new members?

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but a good place to start.  Does
anyone have the answers?

Rick Theiner



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:47:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: The IHA

Scott offers:
- ------------------------------------

Hi,

I would be interested in hearing from clubs and homebrewers about the
possibility of starting the International HomeBrewing Alliance or...
International HomeBrewing Association.

I may be wrong. I may be nuts but I really believe that a true grass
roots effort and alliance amongst homebrewers is out there wanting to
come out.

Lemme know.

 -Scott
===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"

Sorry, Scott-

Fred has already snapped up that acronym for his organization, The Incontinent
Hemiplegics of America.
He's not just a member- he's The Prez.

Oh yeah- he thought of it while drinking a homebrewed beer.

Loretta.


Eric Fouch, PDTL
"..but you never know, until you know."
                                                -Dr. Pivo




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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:01:35 -0500
From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com>
Subject: glycol for product heat transfer & MBAA TQ article

Just an add-on to the previous posts that addressed this question -  for
safety you definitely want to use propylene glycol.  And for efficiency,
a 30% mixture (by volume) is what I'm familiar with in the brewing
industry.

Also, I have the TQ issue concerning on-line SG measurement and would be
happy to "loan" it to anyone via a mailed copy of the article.  But it
would probably be more efficient to make it available electronically, if
someone can tell me how!!  (Yes, I am electronically challenged.....
private replies to this address will be therapeutic........)

Laurel Maney
Brewing Program
Milwaukee Area Technical College



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:14:28 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: easy basements

"Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu> srote:

>In beautiful Glendale, Arizona, within nuke range of 33:35:03N 112:12:06W.
>Y'all come by and hep me dig a basement now, heah?

I remember from the 50's the "Atoms for Peace" program of the government.
One of the proposed projects was a series of nuclear devices to be
detonated to produce a sea level Atlantic to Pacific canal through Nicargua
(back then we didn't ask the natives).  I think the whole thing died a
deserved natural death.  Maybe this is an ivitation from Steve for a small
renewal of the program?  Sounds like we have permission and coordinates,
and I suspect there are some appropriate surplus excavation devices
available on the world market.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:27:43 GMT
From: wkolb at home.com
Subject: Driving grain mills & 55 gal drum pump for malt extract

I have been using a grain mill and a drill to crack grain in my shop
and have gotten tired of the noise and how long it takes to run 10 to
15 lbs of grain (small mill). I would like to get a NEW mill and power
it with a motor with an on/off switch having all of it mounted in a
wooden box/cabinet hiding the motor and mill inside. What I would
really like is to be able to turn it on, pour all the grain in a
hopper (10 to 15 lbs) and have the grain fall into a 7 gal. bucket
below or to the side of the mill. Anyone know of a mill like this or
have plans/ pictures of anything CLOSE to this I could make/copy.
Suggestions on mills (no can of worms please), Motor, HP of motor,
pulleys & belt vs. direct drive, hoppers, would be very helpful.

Next, Has anyone used a 55 gal drum pump to pump malt extract from the
drum? I was thinking about the type of pump that slide down into the
drum as it stands upright and almost looks like an old water pump. I
can order SS high viscosity drum pumps but at $425 it seems a bit
high.
Thanks

Wil Kolb
Happy Dog Brewing Supplies
401 W.Coleman Blvd
Mt Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084
1-800-528-9391
wkolb at home.com
www.catalog.cam/happydog

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: origin of CO2 chart and formula

Peter Santerre wrote:
|  
| People have been interested in C02 charts
| here for a couple days now - but I thought
| I would post something possibly more useful.
| This is a formula that I came across (can't
| recall where, but if you know it's yours
| feel free to lay claim to it) while surfing
| around.
|  
| Pressure =      (-16.6999) - (0.0101059 * Temperature) + 
|                 (0.00116512 * (Temperature * Temperature)) + 
|                 (0.173354 * Temperature * Volume) + 
|                 (4.24267 * Volume) - (0.0684226 * (Volume * Volume));

That was first published on July 12, 1993 in HBD #1179, by me.

When I first dove into homebrewing, I noticed that the only chart published
had pressure on one axis and temperature on the other.  The data in the
middle was volumes of CO2.  This made for a very large and unruly table
that wouldn't fit on an 80 column terminal (more like 160).  The data
was diagonal in nature, and had big gaps in the chart.  I'm not sure
where the data came from.

I decided to generate a better one.  One that read easier.  In October
of 1992, I fed the data from that older chart into Mathematica, and did
a least-squares regression fit to come up with the function that Peter
reported above.  More concisely:

Pressure = F(Temperature, Volume)

P = -16.6999 - 0.0101059 T + 0.00116512 T^2
    + 0.173354 T V + 4.24267 V - 0.0684226  V^2

All but one datum (obviously a typo) fit extremely well, so I trust the
extrapolated data out to high temperatures.  (The original data covered
30F to 60F.)

I wrote the chart-generator in Perl using that formula.  You can tell it
what temperature range (and increment) to use, what volume range to use,
and what units to use and it will make a custom chart for you.  If anyone
wants a copy emailed to them, let me know.  Sorry, I don't have the time
to convert it to C or Java or BASIC or cobol or APL or Z80 assembler (uh,
oh I'm dating myself now ;-).  Perl rules!

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:04:00 -0500
From: "Humphrey,Patrick" <patrick.humphrey at abbott.com>
Subject: Beetle Control

In HBD #3090, Joy Hansen wrote:

>So, use of milky spore (I think this is called BT)  on your property 
and
>that of your neighbors will kill off the beetles.

As I recall (I work for the company that makes it :-)  ), Bt (Bacillus
thuringensis) is only used for control of caterpillars.  Bt, also 
called
DiPel, is sprayed with a surfactant (detergent) onto the leaves of the
affected plants.  The foraging caterpillars ingest the Bt spores which 
then
grow in the gut of the pest.  The growing bacteria produce a toxin that

eventually kills the pest.  Bt is a soil organism and is safe for 
vegetables
and fruits.  I always wash my veggies before I eat them.  Applications 
of Bt
must be repeated if it rains since it will be washed away.  It is 
especially
good for cole crops such as broccoli, cabbage, etc.  If you see little 
white
moths about the size of a half-dollar flying around your garden, get 
out the
DiPel.  They lay eggs on the underside of these crops and the 
caterpillers
will eat the leaves quickly.

To control beetles, I used a dust containing Rotenone which is a 
natural,
root derived inhibitor of mitochondrial electron transport.  Rotenone
decomposes within a month or so in sunlight and does not linger in the 
soil.
Avoid breathing in the dust when applying as with any insecticide or
herbicide.  As always, use a dust/aerosol mask, rubber gloves and full
clothing, ie.  wear a long sleve shirt and long pants when applying
chemicals!


See http://www.abbott.com/products/chemical.htm info.


Pat Humphrey
Lake Villa, IL


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:33:06 -0500
From: "Humphrey,Patrick" <patrick.humphrey at abbott.com>
Subject: Basement Dig

Eat your hearts out...

my walk-out basement is 53 feet wide, about 1800 sq ft.  Enough room 
for my
boys to play roller blade hockey, storage of household paraphernalia 
and my
brewing set up.

nyeah, nyeah!

:-P


Pat Humphrey
Lake Villa, IL


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:32:12 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: pressure drop in hoses, or, who is eddy viscosity, anyway?

collective homebrew conscience_

dave b. wrote:

>Personally, I cannot see how it would work,
>at least the way it has been explained in the  past
>(assigning some pressure drop per foot of line)
>makes absolutely no sense to me.  A long line
>should slow the flow of the beer due to viscosity
>along the walls and turning points and valves
>(Reynolds #,  wall effect), but the beer still
>has to come out at atmospheric pressure and
>starts out at the head pressure of the keg.

>Pressure drop per foot is then just the pressure
>differential ( which is the psig reading on the
>keg pressure valve) divided by the hose length.
>It  may be that the contol of the flow rate using the
>long tube is more gentle than a pin valve ( at which
>foam could break out) and could explain some
>observations of better foam control with longer
>hoses.

what is mechanically important is how fast the beer is flowing from the end
of the hose, not the static pressure of the exit flow, which dave accurately
points out will always be the same value regardless of hose length.  the
mean velocity of a developed laminar flow in a straight pipe (caution:
outgassing of co2 and viscosity variation due to thermal effects not covered
in this presentation.) can be given by:

um = (R^^2/8u)(-dp/dx)

where R is the radius of the pipe, u is absolute viscosity, and dp/dx is the
static pressure drop per length of pipe from the keg to the atmosphere (the
gage reading on the regulator divided by the length of pipe).

if you take two different diameter pipes of the same length, dp/dx is the
same for both.  also u is a property of the beer, so it remains the same (no
thermal effects allowed).  what is different is the radius you're dealing
with, and you can see that as the radius of the pipe gets bigger, the mean
velocity will increase (as the *square* of the increase in radius).

the flow velocity at the output is important in determining how much co2
will break out in the glass.  if the beer pours too fast, you get foam that
is simply due to mechanical agitation.

to reduce the mean velocity at the end of the pipe, then, you must either
reduce the diameter of the pipe, increase the length of the pipe (reducing
dp/dx), or increase the viscosity of the beer.  the last one is tougher than
the first two.

on a related topic, i have done qualitative experiments with chilled and
unchilled serving hoses, with other variables being equal, and the effect of
the warming of the beer as it flows through an unchilled line is a
significant factor in terms of how much co2 is broken out (=foam) before it
gets to the glass.

the above relation is for a straight pipe, or hose, so the effects of bends
and turns in the pipe are not modelled.  gravity is not considered as a
contributor to the motion.  also, turbulence changes things regarding gas
break-out, and the above simple relation has been verified experimentally
only for laminar flow.  but the above gives an idea about how the pressure
differential and the momentum of the flow are related to the size of the
pipe and the properties of the fluid.  turbulent pipe flow experimental data
does not validate the above model, and the empirical results rely on
reynold's number as a variable and then things are not as clear to relate to
each other (although it is probably more accurate in terms of what is really
happening most of the time).  i think einstein said one of his burning
questions for god was going to be "why turbulence?".  or something like
that.  if he had been a homebrewer, he could have relaxed.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:35:09 GMT
From: stencil at bcn.net (stencil)
Subject: Re:  Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:21:31 -0500
>From: "SCHNEIDER,BRETT" <SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com>
>
>I have been searching the internet and emailing suppliers and hb shops
>looking to buy only the cast ring burners and hoses w/regulators for adding
>to my new brewstand. But so far no luck finding them as loose parts. Any
>recommendations or sources people know of for these things?
>
>	- brett
>
>
>----------------------------
Try Northern Tool  (aka Northern Hydraulics) at
http://www.northern-online.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/;execmacro/comprlin.d2w/report
 or
1-800-533-5545

 ....their smallest unit (12" square, 3" high, cast iron) cost less
than $20 five years ago.  Lotsa propane goodies, gauges, valves,
Bernz-bottle adapters, and the like.  Phone ops have the catalog open,
will read the description.  On-line catalog is still in Hartford but
opens soon.
=================================================
"We are all following our own free will in this."
"No, we're not!"
"Silence, wretched collectivist!"
=================================================


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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:51:42 +1000
From: "Rick Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: AHA and Competetor

Hello to the Group,
I just had to comment on the AHA,AOB and the Brian.  I must admit that I
found his (Brian's) responses to the HBD and to me by personal email to be
very helpful.  I personally thought he was an asset to the organization.
However, I live perhaps 10,000 miles from Colorado and I have absolutely no
appreciation regarding the personnel operations of this organization and
cannot comment on the validity of their actions.  I think that David
Housemans comments were well taken and I agree completely.

I am a member of the AHA and the IBS and I fully intend to remain members of
both until I feel that I am no longer served.  I understand that I always
want things to improve and certainly want these groups to improve but at
this point both are living up to my expectations.

That being said, I would welcome a new organization which would support and
energize the Homebrew community.  I would join/subscribe to it as well.  I
think that the cornerstone of such a group would have to be a magazine as
well as the HBD.  Has anyone thought regarding how that magazine would be
published?  Would this be a new magazine or perhaps an existing magazine (BT
or BYO come to mind) which would be part of the membership?  Would it be a
desirable thing for an existing magazine to associate with such an
organization?

In any case, starting such an organization is a daunting exercise.  I
suspect that it is also an expensive exercise as well.  But if anyone can do
it, it would seem that members of this group (HBD) would have a good shot.
However, there would have to be inhibition of some the strong personalities
here.  Over the years things that have happened in the HBD have made me more
upset than anything I have seen at AHA!  Can you imagine what the membership
of the new organization would do when they realize that they are paying for
some of the stuff that goes on here?

Regards,
Rick Wood
(Brewing on Guam - A long way from Jeff Renner!)



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:17:06
From: Jerry Berry <jberry at csn.net>
Subject: BT and Beetles

Stephen Alexander writes (and others have as well):
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:31:09 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: beetles

>...I looked into this a while back.  BT - (Bacillus Thurengensis) is rated as
>INEFFECTIVE as a control for Japanese beetle grubs by several state
>departments of agriculture.  Several have web sites.  It's probably just an
>expensive waste of time & effort in Ohio, KY and several surrounding states.
>It caused only a small drop in infestation levels in one long term study.
>This product is heavily hyped locally tho'.

BT was developed, and at least recently marketed, for effect on leaf-eating
caterpillars and is not effective on grubs.   It's specific action on
butterfly and moth larvae (lepidoptera) and not on other insects,such as
bees nor -unfortunately in this case- coleoptera (beetles) is one of the
reasons it's widely acceptable to the green folks...
 ...It's a little known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...
jberry, Aurora Colorado


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:14:01 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CAP- corn

Paul Kerchefske <fritz6 at netscape.net> asks what the preferred form of corn
is for CAP (Classic American Pilsner).  The commercial brewers use grits
(not the hominy grits he mentions).  These are just coarse corn meal.
Polenta is very similar.  I use a coarse corn meal (coarser than Quaker but
finer than grits) I get at a bulk food store.  Corn meal has a slightly
higher oil content than grits (but still pretty low), but this doesn't seem
a problem for me.  Whole corn meal has a high oil content, but George
DePiro and Jack Schmidling both have reported no problem with this, even
though brewing texts, old and new, say it is.  All of these require
precooking, and the standard historic and current commercial procedure is
to mash it with 30% as much malt before boiling (but Alan McKay reports he
has no trouble with not doing this).

For simplicity, you can use flaked corn, which you don't need to boil
before mashing because it has been moistened and rolled with hot rollers.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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---