---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Seeking E-Mail Addresses ("John or Barb Sullivan")
  Bottles for competitions ("Houseman, David L")
  Overwintering Hops ("Luke Van Santen")
  wintering them thar hops (pbabcock)
  AHA/AoB ("Ken Schramm")
  Cider recipies (Jonathan Peakall)
  on the road again... (Lou.Heavner)
  Mystery Mash Temps (Matt Smiley)
  Don't Dry Hop with Pellets!! ("John Palmer")
  Cleaning new 3 tier brewery ("Kenneth Smith")
  removing sulphur from H2O (Scott Murman)
  Hunter Airstat Question ("Bruce Ray")
  Starter containers (RiedelD)
  Re: Stove top beer (Jeff Renner)
  Hop substitution question (Mac the Cardinal)
  Dry yeast storage (Jeff Renner)
  Drink Wheel (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Book: Principles of Brewing Science 2 (hal)
  Dry Malt and Liquid Extract differences. (Kevin Mc Lean)
  Re: The Flavor (Spencer W Thomas)
  starter bottles (Jim Liddil)
  Caramel flavor AND bottle styles for competition (larry land)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 05:56:39 -0500
From: "John or Barb Sullivan" <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Seeking E-Mail Addresses

I am the coordinator for the technical program for MCAB II to be held in
St. Louis on March 24 - 25, 2000. I am looking for the following e-mail
addresses for some individuals who we would like to have assist us in an
open forum segment.  The e-mails I need are:

Alan Moen
Rande Reed
Al Andrews

I may need additional help as time progresses and individuals accept or
decline but any help on linking me up with these individuals would be
helpful.    IF YOU HAVE THESE ADDRESSES, PLEASE SEND TO ME IN PRIVATE EMAIL
TO SULLVAN at ANET-STL.COM.  Thanks!

John Sullivan
St. Louis Brews


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:31:58 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Bottles for competitions

Why are competitions so strict about the type of bottles entered and do not
want flip top (or other sizes)?  Well if you ever organize a competition of
any size you would realize immediately the problem.  With a 200 entry
competition (medium size) and 3 bottles per entry, that's 600 bottles, or 25
cases.  If you get nice case boxes to put bottles into, what you find
immediately is that all the odd sized bottles don't fit so you try to put
them all in an odd case lot but then the entries aren't necessarily in the
right order so it's hard for the stewards to find the desired entries.   And
the cases don't stack well if there are any tall bottles.  This is usually a
problem with limited cold room space.   Additionally, if there only a few of
the odd bottle shapes, sizes, etc. then they don't necessarily remain
anomymous when the bottles are brought to the table for judging.  This is a
key tenet to judging fairness.  So, do everyone a favor and bottle at least
some of your beer in 12oz, brown bottles for entry into competitions or keg
and counter pressure bottle some.  Good luck.



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:39:01 -0500
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Overwintering Hops

All -

Took the hops down the other day and had a question - when they say to 
take the hops down to the crown when overwintering, do they mean ground 
surface, below ground surface, etc. Or can you just put a lot of mulch 
over them and not worry?

Thanks!


Luke Van Santen
IR Manager - Metro WRE
MN Dept. of Transportation
(612)797-3902

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:55:45 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: wintering them thar hops


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 Luke Van Santen wrote:

> Took the hops down the other day and had a question - when they say to 
> take the hops down to the crown when overwintering, do they mean ground 
> surface, below ground surface, etc. Or can you just put a lot of mulch 
> over them and not worry?

I mulch over the base all summer long, and then put my leaves over them in
the fall. Once the bine have sufficiently dried out (usually between
November and January here in Michigan, I break the bines from the crown
(level with the ground) and remove them from the fence. They then become
rather aromatic starters for the fireplace (unless you're a lot better at
harvesting all the hops than I am...). The key is to get the old bines off
and out of the way before the spring sprouting - which takes place under
ground a lot earlier than you might expect. It's not so much WHEN it gets
done as much as it is THAT it gets done. Not removing the bines and
allowing the next generation to grow over them makes for a rather
unmanageable mess come harvest time.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:30:54 -0400
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
Subject:  AHA/AoB

Jim, et al;

I have passed your post along to the AHA Board of Advisors.  I agree that 
this is not a good way to do business, and that it reflects poorly on the 
organization and its treatment of its members/customers.

I recently went through the Apple G4 realignment fiasco (I ordered a G4, 
but Apple "unable to meet orders" announced they had " realigned the 
processor speeds," cancelled my order and offered me the opportunity to 
buy the machine I had ordered for nearly a grand more).  I was livid, but 
Apple, given a day, thought the better of their stupidity and reversed 
their decision and plan of action on their back orders.  I hope BP has the 

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:02:21 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: Cider recipies

Someone asked about cider recipes:

I am by no means an expert (this is my first batch) but this is how I made
mine this year. This method is essentially my Granddad's, just a little
cleaner.

First we picked apples, using about 60% Golden Delicious and 40% Jonathan.
This mixture of sweet and tart apples was recommended by a little pamphlet
I found. I wish I could tell you the name, but I have misplaced it. I can
say that the GD apples were sweet and bland, and the Jonathan's had an
amazing tart flavor, hands down everyone's favorite to swill (which we did
a lot of during the press). We let them "sweat" (sit) for a week to soften
them, pressed (I am lucky to have a friend with an awesome press), and
poured into sanitized 35 gallon food grade garbage pails. We pitched a
gallon of raging starter made with unpasturized apple juice and champagne
yeast. In total, we made 36 gallons of cider!! It seemed as if a garbage
pail full of apples made about 5-7 gallons of juice, depending on variety.
We had no idea we were going to end up with so much juice, and had to
scramble for secondary fermenters. When we racked from primary to secondary
after about a week, it was so good that we set aside a couple of gallons
and drank it. Incredible! So tasty even little children and the elderly
would chug it! In fact, one carboy is getting a little low from repeated
attacks.

We did no campden tablets, or anything like that, and so far the cider
tastes completely clean. It may not be stable for long periods, but that's
OK, as it ain't gonna last that long. The juice had an OG a little over
1060, and we didn't want to add anything to boost the sugar level, as this
project was a "good enough fer Granddad, good enough fer me" kind of a
thing. One of my brew partners works at a noted champagne vintners, and we
are going to take some and do it "method champagnois", which should be fun,
although I must say I prefer going "au natural".

In total right now, I have 30 odd gallons of cider and 45 gallons of beer
on hand! Are we set for the holidays or what?!! My brew partners and I have
taken to calling ourselves "The Barons of Beverage". Yeah!!

Jonathan Peakall

********************************************

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from
them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and
the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
 -- John Wayne

********************************************



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:21:47 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: on the road again...

     Looks like I will be in Sud America for the next month.  I am pretty
     familiar with the beers of Brasil and my host in Sao Paulo will want
     me to drink his homemade cachaca anyway.  But any suggestions for
     Argentine or Venezuelan beers or places to visit in Porto Alegre,
     Buenos Aires or Maracaibo would be appreciated.

     Ching Ching!



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:48:19 -0500
From: msmiley at cardiology.utmb.edu (Matt Smiley)
Subject: Mystery Mash Temps

I've been experimenting with partial grain mashes (~ 5 lbs. of grain) in my
last couple batches and have noticed a strange phenomenon. When the mash
reaches an optimal temperature between 150-160 degrees F, it will hold this
temp (absolutely rock steady +/- <  1 degree) with no added heat for over an
hour with the pot sitting on a cold countertop. When I added small amounts
of cold water to thin the mixture a little, the temp dropped briefly and
returned to its original level. This does not make thermodynamic sense
unless the enzymatic reactions are generating their own heat. For you all
with the biochemistry background, are these reactions exothermic?

Matt M. Smiley
Port Bolivar, Texas, on the scenic Redneck Riviera
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Beer - the cause of (and the solution to) most of life's problems."
- -- H.J. Simpson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:09:31 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Don't Dry Hop with Pellets!!

It was a good question from the theoretical side, but honestly, don't dry
hop with pellets, even in a hop bag. The hop powder goes thru the bag and
never drops out of suspension. I tried it once and had to fine with
Isinglass to get it to drop clear enough to drink.
John


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:18:55 -0500
From: "Kenneth Smith" <Kenneth_Smith at enron.com>
Subject: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery



I recently completed a 3 tier system based on Sanke kegs.  The question is
this...  How do I clean this system before I use it?  Is recirculating with a
hot solution of B Brite enough?  I have heard of also boiling with vinegar.
Piping is hard copper and valves are brass.  Kegs are of course kind of nasty
looking stainless.  Ideas would be appreciated.

Ken Smith



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: removing sulphur from H2O



This is really a backpacking question, but there are so many aquatic
chemists here, I'm sure I'll get better advice.  We're going to be
camping out at Pt. Reyes for a few days, and they mentioned that the
water has a lot of sulphur that a typical portable water filter will
not remove.  Is there a simple way to remove the sulphur pre or post
filtering?  Sulphur pasta anyone?

 -SM-







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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:33:45 -0500
From: "Bruce Ray" <bruce at deepc.com>
Subject: Hunter Airstat Question

I have found the Airstat modification from the 1994 HBD archives.
Now, I'd like to modify mine to hold a temp of something in the range
of 100F to 110F (not for homebrewing, unfortunately!)

The Airstat setpoint only goes up to 90F and the article in the archives 
doesn't have quite enough info about the thermistor for me figure it out.

If anyone has the specs on the Airstat thermistor, I'd appreciate a copy.
Or just the value of the resistor needed, but it would be nice to see the
math!

Thanks, in advance,
Bruce Ray



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:53:18 -0700
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Starter containers

>Dave, you are correct. A magnetic stirrer won't work if you are using a
>cider jug with a concave bottom. I use 2L Erlenmeyer flasks. Besides
>compatibility with a stirrer, another advantage to lab flasks, at least
>Pyrex ones, is that you can boil the starter wort and pitch the yeast in
the
>same vessel, which virtually assures you are pitching into sterile wort.

I have managed to use my magnetic stirrer in the bottom of a 'cider' jug,
but
it is an exercise in frustration... last time I took a shot at it, I gave
up.

Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to control the
boil?  The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of bubbles/foam
instead of  a steady boil.  This caused boil-over problems that I could not
prevent.  I'm assuming that the reason for this was the very smooth bottom
of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites for bubbles.  How do you
add boiling stones without disrupting the stir bar, though?

Any comments are appreciated,
Dave Riedel


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:12:33 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Stove top beer

I brewed in a thin enameled steel 33 qt. kettle on a #&*# at ! electric stove
and had no trouble with scorching, even with very pale beers such as CAP,
EXCEPT when I first started 25 years ago a didn't turn off the burner after
the water came to a boil and I added liquid malt extract.  In those first
two or three brews the syrup settled down on the bottom of the kettle and
scorched.  I had a burnt flavor and little bleack flakes in the beer.  If
you are extract brewing you should always turn off the heat before adding
malt extract and not turn it on again until you've stirred it thoroughly
and it is all in solution.

The stainless steel top of two stoves never recovered from the big kettle
reflecting heat, however, and I'm still in the doghouse on that.  Covering
the stove top with aluminum foil helps but not entirely.  I now use a
propane fired three vessel (10 gallon aluminum stock pots) RIMS in the
garage, which makes for two happier people in the household.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mac the Cardinal <macthecardinal at yahoo.com>
Subject: Hop substitution question

I'm due to make a batch of David Brockington's Sister
Star of the Sun IPA, and I'd like some opinions on hop
substitution.

Here's the recipe:

13# Hugh Baird English Pale malted barley 
1/4# Hugh Baird 135L crystal malt 
1/4# Great Western malted wheat 
3 oz Chinook hops (60 minutes) 
2 oz East Kent Golding hops (15 minutes) 
2 oz imported Fuggle hops (while chilling) 
1 tsp. Irish Moss ( at 30 minute mark) 
Wyeast 1028 (London Ale), pint starter. 
(http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/01_114.html)

In previous batches, I've cut down the Chinook in this

recipe to 2 oz.  I don't mind purchasing the hops
called for, but I'd
like to use some of what I have on hand: 5 1/2 oz of
Cascade, 1/2 oz Nugget.

My thoughts:
For the 2 oz Chinook, buying 1 1/2 Chinook and adding
my 1/2 Nugget
For the EK Goldings, 2 oz Cacade
Buy the Fuggles

Any suggestions?
TIA!
Joe
joee at gasullivan.com


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:31:30 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Dry yeast storage

"John S Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu> asks:

>Can (should) dry yeast be stored in the freezer? I accidentally put mine in
>there for a day before realizing that this may crystallize and damage the
>cells. But would this occur if the cells are dry?

The moisture is so low that there is effectively no freezing.  As a matter
of fact, storing in the freezer is the recommended method for storing dry
yeast.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:55:31 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Drink Wheel

Owweeee 

A fun place to visit!  What is it - the Drink Wheel, an alchol breath test
simulator!

http://www.intox.com/Drink_Wheel_F.html

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:56:29 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Book: Principles of Brewing Science 2

I understand your problem and the only
thing I can say is I work in the pre-press
business in central IL. and we just put the
film for that book in the works to go to the
printer 4 days ago. Some times clients that
spend a few thousand $$$ to have something
printed, at a  few thousand copies like to keep
changing their minds as to how it should
look. I'm not with the author/publisher/ or
printer but I did see this go through the works.

Hal


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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:59:11 +1000 (EST)
From: k.g.mclean at cqu.edu.au (Kevin Mc Lean)
Subject: Dry Malt and Liquid Extract differences.

Hi,
        I'm a beginning brewer and mainly working in extract at the moment.
A lot of the recipes I've struck ask for both liquid and dry malt extract
to be added. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the difference (aside from
water content) would be between these two? Offlist is fine, as I presume
most people on this list will probably know.

Regards,

Kevin Mc Lean.








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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:40:57 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Flavor 

I can't help but wonder if an appropriate level of diacetyl
contributes to the perceived "caramel" flavor.  You don't mention
diacetyl flavor (butterscotch to butter, depending on the
concentration) at all, but I would be very surprised if there was none
in a classic English ale.

What do you all think?



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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:54:26 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: starter bottles

> From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
> Subject: RE: Starter Container
> 
> Dave, you are correct. A magnetic stirrer won't work if you are using a
> cider jug with a concave bottom. I use 2L Erlenmeyer flasks. Besides
> compatibility with a stirrer, another advantage to lab flasks, at least

Oh, but it will.  Once you center the magnet on the high spot, it will
work provided you don't get the rpms too high.  I have used a 1 gallon
hplc solvent bottle for years.

Jim Liddil




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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:12:06 -0500
From: larry land <lland at startext.net>
Subject: Caramel flavor AND bottle styles for competition

I, too, crave the caramel flavor for some of my recipies, but have not
perfected it as of late. My question concerns a product I found on the
shelf of the local homebrew shop, named Caramalt... [  I think this is
the name, and believe it is made by Morgans ]  It looks like it would
considerably raise the color srm thing, so it may slant some styles the
wrong way.  Will it work for the flavor?
- --  Also, a question for all the judgie-wudgies out there;  Would your
score be influenced by an entry in a McEwen's brown 12-oz bottle for a
Scotch Ale sub-type?

Prosit!


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