HOMEBREW Digest #3155 Thu 28 October 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
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  Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery (phil sides jr)
  RE: The Flavor ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  Hop replanting. ("Mike Pensinger")
  Boiling in Erlenmeyers ("Mark Nelson")
  Re: Overwintering Hops (Jeff Renner)
  POBS 2 Preview? (Biergiek)
  bizarre temps, caramel flavors, etc... ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: Don't Dry Hop with Pellets!! (Matthew Arnold)
  Sulfide in water (MAB)
  Re: Cleaning 3 Tier brewery (Rob Dewhirst)
  Bert Grant's IPA? ("Spevjo")
  Bottle Requirements For HBC's, Continued ("Thomas O'Connor")
  Poor man's Gram Stain ("Rich, Charles")
  Dry Hopping With Pellets (CLOAKSTONE)
  using a jug w/ a stir plate (John_E_Schnupp)
  RIMS thermocouple ("Doug Moyer")
  Polyclar use ("Fred Ogline")
  Sulphur in water ("Sean Richens")
  Sapporo Soybeans ("bryan bonser")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:51:01 -0400 From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net> Subject: Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery Ken Smith writes: >I recently completed a 3 tier system based on Sanke kegs. The question is >this... How do I clean this system before I use it? Is recirculating with a >hot solution of B Brite enough? I have heard of also boiling with vinegar. >Piping is hard copper and valves are brass. Kegs are of course kind of nasty >looking stainless. Ideas would be appreciated. I don't think B Brite has the guts to do your initial acid cleaning. Vinegar is really well suited for the job. You are looking for a weak acid cleaning. When I first built mine, I put a gallon of white vinegar in each of my kegs with about 12 gallons of water and let them all boil for about two hours. It worked perfectly. These days, I am a giant fan of 5 Star PBW (you know the line) and I am thinking a nice soak with that might work even better. It is FAR more expensive than vinegar and the little bit of propane you will blow off though ;-) The thing about PBW though is that it cleans stainless to the point that it virtually looks like chrome with no scrubbing. I have an interesting story about its cleaning ability; email me privately if you would like to hear it. Phil Sides Jr. Concord, NH - -- Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:04:50 +0200 From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com> Subject: RE: The Flavor >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:40:57 -0400 >From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> >Subject: Re: The Flavor >I can't help but wonder if an appropriate level of diacetyl >contributes to the perceived "caramel" flavor. You don't mention >diacetyl flavor (butterscotch to butter, depending on the >concentration) at all, but I would be very surprised if there was none >in a classic English ale. In "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" under "Evaluating Flavor" George provides a set of intensity levels for an English-style extra special bitter according to the Meilgaard system. This seems to correspond with how I would describe Fuller's ESB, and yes diacetyl is present over a significant range. I'm not sure I'm experienced enough (taste wise) to pin the caramel flavour solely to this though; what I think is diacetyl could well be something else entirely..... I would be interested in an experienced diacetyl taster's opinion on whether FESB is in the high or low range for this flavour component. My inexperienced perception is that the "Fullers Flavour" is slightly more intense in the bottled (filtered) product than in the cask. Of course the alcohol content of the former is higher than the latter, as is the carbonation. Does diacetyl degrade in the cask (in the continued presence of yeasties)? I think it is safe to eliminate the alcohol content and use of Goldings whole hops from the equation. London Pride exibits this same caramel flavour as well (I've never tried the Chiswick Bitter). Does anyone have any evidence that the Fuller's yeast (i.e. not the Wyeast 1968 strain) is a big diacetyl producer? If so, Spencer is probably on to something..... I feel that further taste tests are required to further analyse this ;^) Regards, Paul Campbell Aberdeen Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:35:00 -0400 From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermaker at home.com> Subject: Hop replanting. We just recently bought a new house and I have a Fuggles first year plant that did very well and want to move it to the new house. Can I just dig it up carefully and move it to the new house. Should I did a hole and cover it with dirt and mulch/leaves and water it well? What do you all think? Mike Pensinger beermaker at home.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:49:22 -0400 From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com> Subject: Boiling in Erlenmeyers Dave asks about preventing boilovers when prepping starters in Erlenmeyers. My procedure is to microwave my starters in a 1L Erlenmeyers. I'll cover the top with plastic wrap which seems to create a little bit of back pressure. The back pressure in turn seems to keep the bubbling and boiling over in check. The same setup may work with an Erlenmeyer in a water bath, or perhaps with direct heat, but YMMV. Mark Nelson Atlanta GA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:11:47 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Overwintering Hops "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us> wrote >Took the hops down the other day and had a question - when they say to >take the hops down to the crown when overwintering, do they mean ground >surface, below ground surface, etc. Or can you just put a lot of mulch >over them and not worry? Geez, maybe I don't worry enough, but I just cut my Cascade hops off somewhere near the ground and they always come back next year. Mulch? Well, some years I dump the spent grains from a few brews on the hill. I figure there are some good nutrients there. [Years ago Dave Sapsis warned not to put spent grains on hop beds because they were too "hot," but I figure that after the growning season, the grains will break down by next spring.] Sometimes they just have to overwinter bare. While our winters here aren't quite as cold as Minnesota ones, we get below zero pretty regularly and it works. Things have to be able to survive some benign neglect around here to make it. Plants, anyway. Dogs and kids get more attention. Anyway, I'd vote to just mulch for Minnesota and not worry beyond that. Everything down to the crown seems to die back anyway. Pat Babcock jumped ahead in line ;-) and added: >Not removing the bines and >allowing the next generation to grow over them makes for a rather >unmanageable mess come harvest time. That could also expose the hops to overwintering disease. It's definitely a good idea to dispose of the old bines at a distance. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:31:20 EDT From: Biergiek at aol.com Subject: POBS 2 Preview? >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:56:29 -0600From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com> >Subject: Book: Principles of Brewing Science 2 Anyone have a preview for this book? Is it that much differnent that POBS 1? I don't mind so much, but it is Fred Garvin that really gets ticked when he buys a revised book he already owns and the only change is the printing date and the cover. I won't even get into what Phil or Morkey do when this happens. Come to think of it, this is about the time George Fix should pop into the HBD with a post... his posts seem to be favorably timed with the release dates of his new publications. I wonder if he learned these marketing strategies from Schmidling? Kyle Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:43:05 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu> Subject: bizarre temps, caramel flavors, etc... > Subject: Mystery Mash Temps > > I've been experimenting with partial grain mashes (~ 5 lbs. of grain) in my > last couple batches and have noticed a strange phenomenon. When the mash > reaches an optimal temperature between 150-160 degrees F, it will hold this > temp (absolutely rock steady +/- < 1 degree) with no added heat for over an > hour with the pot sitting on a cold countertop. When I added small amounts > of cold water to thin the mixture a little, the temp dropped briefly and > returned to its original level. This does not make thermodynamic sense > unless the enzymatic reactions are generating their own heat. For you all > with the biochemistry background, are these reactions exothermic? Barring some VERY improbable statistical fluctuations, and assuming you are working within the same universre I am, I'd say what you are seeing is simply a local cooling effect (transient small temp decrease) followed by mixing/homogenization which causes the observed return to the initial temp. Otherwise it may be that Pons and Fleishmann were right after all! ****** > From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net> > Subject: Don't Dry Hop with Pellets!! > > It was a good question from the theoretical side, but honestly, don't dry > hop with pellets, even in a hop bag. The hop powder goes thru the bag and > never drops out of suspension. I tried it once and had to fine with > Isinglass to get it to drop clear enough to drink. > John On the other hand, I've dry-hopped with pellets several times and obtained clear beer in the end... FWIW. ******* > Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to control the > boil? The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of bubbles/foam > instead of a steady boil. This caused boil-over problems that I could not > prevent. I'm assuming that the reason for this was the very smooth bottom > of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites for bubbles. How do you > add boiling stones without disrupting the stir bar, though? > > Any comments are appreciated, > Dave Riedel Dave, it's been my experience that the stir bar itself can serve in place of boiling stones. Rough it up a bit and see if it works for you.... ********* > From: larry land <lland at startext.net> > Subject: Caramel flavor AND bottle styles for competition > > I, too, crave the caramel flavor for some of my recipies, but have not > perfected it as of late. My question concerns a product I found on the > shelf of the local homebrew shop, named Caramalt How about just throwing in a bag of Kraft caramels into the boil?? ;) -Alan Meeker Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:20:23 GMT From: revmra at iname.com (Matthew Arnold) Subject: Re: Don't Dry Hop with Pellets!! On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:15:21 -0400, you wrote: >It was a good question from the theoretical side, but honestly, don't dry >hop with pellets, even in a hop bag. The hop powder goes thru the bag and >never drops out of suspension. I tried it once and had to fine with >Isinglass to get it to drop clear enough to drink. I've dry hopped several (about 5?) times with pellets and only once had to fine the beer (with gelatin), but that one was hazy going into the secondary anyway. I've actually noticed far worse hop-related haze by doing large knock-out additions than with pellet dry hopping. It's also a practical issue for me because whole hops are not readily available in many varieties around here. To each their own, but I don't have a problem with it. Matt - ----- Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:26:16 -0400 From: MAB <mabrooks at erols.com> Subject: Sulfide in water Is there a simple way to remove the sulphur pre or post filtering? Sulphur pasta anyone? -SM- Scott, As an avid backpacker, I have dipped from numerous different source waters, and so far have not had the misfortune of having to deal with the dreaded Sulfur smell!! In general (but not always), this is caused by sulfur reducing bacteria and can be overcome by oxidation of the source water. There are numerous oxidants that will oxidize sulfide to sulfate but many of these may impact the water as well (not to mention that high levels of sulfate can have a laxative effect!!). Oxidants of choice would include.....Chlorine and Iodine (as well as others not so readily available), and of course good old "Air" (20 percent Oxygen). The first two oxidants listed are very effective, however, they will also leave a residual taste in the water....the last method of oxidation/stripping with air will work but is a slow process and requires a bit of effort (read shaking vigorously). Since alot of the apparent taste of sulfide is associated with the smell you can try holding your nose when you drink the water (Seriously). You can try Iodine tabs (available in most any outdoor store) these will also protect you from any viruses that may be present on the water. Just treat with Iodine and let sit for the recommended time, then mix with powdered Gatorade. This works amazingly well, also, some water filters have an Iodine cartridge available for virus removel, these may work as well). As for cooking food, you could try shaking the water vigorously for a few minutes, this may work well enough for cooking (use alot of seasoning?). Of course you could always pack in a couple of gallons...lets see at 8.34 lbs. per gallon...that comes to.......ever considered a pack animal? Sometimes you gotta pay a price for enjoying the great outdoors. Good luck. Matt B. Northern VA. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:15:23 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu> Subject: Re: Cleaning 3 Tier brewery At 12:20 AM 10/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >I recently completed a 3 tier system based on Sanke kegs. The question is >this... I strongly recommend a pressure washer. It will make your brewing life so much easier. You can clean most things in your brewery with it, corny kegs, the car that carries the corny kegs, etc.. I had the plumber run a hot water tap into my brewery (others keep referring to it as my garage, don't know why) and I can generate this nice vapor cloud down the street on brew day in the winter. >How do I clean this system before I use it? Is recirculating with a >hot solution of B Brite enough? I have heard of also boiling with vinegar. I "brewed" a few batches of water and b-brite to test my system when I first built it. That seemed to work fine. >Piping is hard copper and valves are brass. Can't help you here. I use flexible tubing so I can see if it's clean. Have you de-leaded the brass? >Kegs are of course kind of nasty >looking stainless. Ideas would be appreciated. When I've had to clean up nasty stainless things, I've used something called "Barkeepers helper". It's basically Comet with oxalic acid, which I believe is the active ingredient in oven cleaner. But really, nothing beats 1500 PSI. :) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:34:03 -0700 From: "Spevjo" <spevjo at hotmail.com> Subject: Bert Grant's IPA? Heya, I've gotten a request to try and make a Bert Grant's IPA clone for some friends...looking for a good approximation. I went back a few years in the digest and found some other brewers who were apparently interested, but no recipes posted. Does anyone have a good version (pref. all-grain) that they would be willing to share? Or some suggestions for formulating a copy? Private emails are great... Thanks, Spevjo Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:24:13 -0400 From: "Thomas O'Connor" <toconnor at nehealth.org> Subject: Bottle Requirements For HBC's, Continued Dear Collective, I read with interest the brief point/counterpoint that has been posted regarding bottle size requirements for homebrew competitions. Thus, my $0.02 worth: I've been organizing HBC's for several years now, from the height of the hobby's popularity, to its current level of waning interest. While the argument for uniformity of bottle size is appealing, its justification lies only in the aesthetic appearance of stacked beer cases... Don't you think we can do a bit better? People enter these (our) homebrew competitions to get their beer judged, to improve as brewers based on the authoritative feedback, and maybe to win some goodies, if not glory and honour. They also pay, often, an excessive fee for that priviledge. We've all seen entry fees set up to $11 per entry, although, admittedly, most are in the $5-6 range. My point being, the brewers give us, with their beloved homebrews and money, much more than they receive, as a rule. Furthermore, with the decline in competition entry numbers and waning enthusiasm out there for the hobby in general, we should be in the business of making people happy. Refusal of their beers based on bottle dimension is, frankly, insensitive and lame. It's the beer we should be judging, not the bottle. I've organized competitions at country fairs in Maine, and I've always been delighted to get ANY entry--I don't care if it comes in a rubber boot. My appeal to those that organize homebrew competitions would be, be flexible! A few odd bottles can go in a separate box with no real deterioration of the human condition. " I have a dream... where my four beers will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color (and shape) of their bottle, but by the content of their character." (sic) MLK forgive me. Tom O'Connor M.D. Rockport, Maine Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:08:19 -0700 From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com> Subject: Poor man's Gram Stain Hi all, The Gram stain technique divides bacteria into two camps, gram-positive and gram-negative depending on their color after staining, and helps in figuring out what kind of bugs are in your beer. It also renders all the biota in a slurry sample visible which makes microscopic inspection easier. After getting a Difco Gram Stain Kit for my microscope and monkeying around I think I've hit on a reasonable facsimile of the technique, made from common goods, that will work for the homebrewer. Gram stain's Crystal Violet is the same as drugstore Gentian Violet just a little more concentrated, likewise the Iodine mordant is stronger too. The kit uses acetone+ethyl alcohol for the decolorizer but straight ethanol is also often used for the decolorizer. Replacing Safranin, the counterstain which makes the uncolored gram-negative organisms visible, was a stretch but red food coloring actually worked pretty well. I started with a vial of mixed gram-negative and gram-positive organisms so I could see both sides of the test. Yeast are gram positive so that was easy. I also found a reeking sample of bad wort which turned out to be full of gram-negative bodies. The slightly nutty, vomit/baby-diaper odor, makes me suspect Megasphera, a butyric and caproic acid producer. I prepared and stained several slides using the Difco Gram stain kit and the bacteria-rich culture, yeast only and then the mix of both and started getting pretty good results after the first two or three tries. Then I started substituting common goods to find what gave the same results. Using drugstore Gentian Violet, Iodophor (straight), hardware store Denatured Alcohol (used for shellac etc) and red food coloring (FDA Red Dye #3), here is what I came up with: Make a smear of your sample on a glass microscope slide and let air dry. Pass the slide over a flame a couple of times to just warm it and afix the cells to the glass. 1) Flood slide with Gentian Violet and let stand for three minutes. 2) Rinse gently with water. 3) Flood slide with straight Iodophor and let stand for three minutes. 4) Rinse gently with water. 5) Drip decolorizer (hardware store Denatured Alcohol) over slide until it flows clear. 6) Rinse gently with water 7) Flood slide with red food coloring and let stand for 30 seconds. 8) Rise gently with water 9) Blot from edges and then air dry slide (wave it in the air) Longer contact time with the stains makes up for the drugstore goods being less concentrated than the standard stains. The main part of the technique, staining and decolorizing gram-postivie organisms (steps 1-6), gives results bang-on-exactly like the official gram stain. Using red food coloring instead of safranin isn't quite as good but works. Safranin gives a distinct pink where food coloring gave a slightly bluer pink which could be confused with purple on very small bodies. I'll keep my eye out for a better safranin replacement but meanwhile this gets you pretty much there. I ordered my kit from VWR Scientific for about $35. Gentian Violet (found next to Iodine in the drugstore) costs about $3. You probably have the rest laying around. Good luck, Charles Rich, "A microscope without stains is like a TV set without an antenna" BTW: Denatured alcohol contains methanol which can be absorbed through the skin. It's a good idea to minimize your contact with it by using gloves or Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:37:12 EDT From: CLOAKSTONE at aol.com Subject: Dry Hopping With Pellets I must disagree with John Palmer on this one, as I always dry hop with pellets and experience none of the problems he describes. The key, at least in my experience, is as follows: (1) Dry hop at the end of primary, when fermentation activity is, by all accounts, done or nearly done. Doing it earlier will mean that the millions of nucleation sites in solution (as is the case with pellets) are bonded interminably to the CO2 generated during the main phase of fermentation. (2) dry hop for two days, at most. I know that many books recommend longer, but in my experience the longer time generates an unduly harsh, bitter, and unpleasantly vegetable- or grassy-like, quality. The two days, using pellets, will allow plenty of oil utilization and thus hop character to come through. (3) at the end of the second full day of dry-hopping, crash cool the beer to near freezing (e.g., 30F). Allow to cool for 24 hours. You may wish to do a diacetyl test prior to cooling: To ensure the yeast has reduced the level of diacetyl to a minimum, draw a sample of the beer, and heat it to "tea" temperature - approximately 170-180F. Any whiff of butter or butterscotch will indicate diacetyl is still in solution, and you may wish to allow another day for the yeast to reduce it prior to "crashing" the beer. (4) Transfer at the end of this period and continue to cool for as long as you wish (or as long as your palate can hold out - ideallly, a couple of weeks, though 5 days has always proven sufficient to me). If you do not rouse the vessel during this "second" transfer, you will most likely leave behind the dry hops and dormant yeast. The cooling of the previous 24 hours most likely causes a nexus between the hop pellet particles and precipitated protein complexes, and consequently they drop out. Cheers! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:47:34 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: using a jug w/ a stir plate >>Dave, you are correct. A magnetic stirrer won't work if you are using a >>cider jug with a concave bottom. I use 2L Erlenmeyer flasks. Besides >compatibility with a stirrer, another advantage to lab flasks, at least >I have managed to use my magnetic stirrer in the bottom of a 'cider' jug, The key point it getting the magnet close enough to the stir bar. I've used both a flask and a jug. My latest is a jug and I can stir a 4L wine jug (with a vortex that goes all the way to the magnet) without losing the coupling. I did have to make my own stirrer. I cut a hole in the bottom and then mounted the motor so that the vertical position could be adjusted for optimal coupling. It's a matter of mechanical engineering. If you use a commercial made stir plate, yes it probably won't work. BUT, if you make your own (or are willing/can modify one) it can and does work. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:46:33 -0400 From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> Subject: RIMS thermocouple To all the DIY RIMSers, Is there any reason not to use thermocouple wire to make my own bi-metal junction thermocouple? Assuming I pick the right alloys, will I get sufficient precision? Any suggestions on the right alloys? (I meant to bring the Omega catalogue home tonight, but forgot. Now I'm looking for an "easy" answer.) I will be designing my own controller basically from the ground up, so interface is not a problem. What about keeping the thermocouple junction isolated from the wort--is it necessary? If I make a thermal well, I know I'll lose response time, but I don't know if it would be an issue in this application. (Obviously I haven't done much research or testing yet...) Any thoughts out there? Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:33:37 -0400 From: "Fred Ogline" <Fred.Ogline at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Polyclar use I have a pear melomel that I made back in January, my first mead with fruit. I've racked it twice since then (the first time into more pureed pears but the second time into nothing but a carboy full of CO2.) It's down to about four gallons. The last time I racked was in April, and it is not clearing so that I would notice. There is little sediment on the bottom, and it is pretty much finished out gravity-wise. A local brewer told me to try polyclar, and that all you have to do is add two teaspoons to some warm water like I was rehydrating/activating dry yeast, and that was all there was to it. His state of consciousness was questionable at the time, so I thought I should check out for additional experiences/information. Does this sum up the procedure? What can I expect as far as performance in clearing it up: will it work, how long will it take? Does polyclar mess with the flavor at all? What is polyclar, by the way? Thanks for the help. Fred Ogline Walled Lake, MI fred.ogline at worldnet.att.net Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:33:07 -0500 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: Sulphur in water When someone comments on water containing "sulphur", because that's what they smell, it's usually hydrogen sulphide, which some wine yeast strains will make both naturally and in response to excess metabisulphite. Since it's water and you don't care about oxygen, try adding a squeeze of lemon, some citric acid, or some lemonade crystals to acidify the water, then pour it from one container to another a few times to aerate it. This should scrub out most of the hydrogen sulphide, and if you let it sit for a couple of hours (or tote it around in a canteen) most sulphur dioxide should convert to sulphate, which has considerably less flavour. Sean Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:08:28 PDT From: "bryan bonser" <bbonser at hotmail.com> Subject: Sapporo Soybeans I have a new twist from Japan on an old thread. Sorry if this information has already been posted; I searched the recent archives and didn't see one, but have just recently subscribed. Sapporo, one of Japan's big four brewers, currently has a "five-grain" beer containing SOYBEANS on the market. I don't know if it is intended as a permanent addition to their line, but is available nationwide, even in my local convenience stores and (this is one reason I'm still in Japan) in many BEER VENDING MACHINES. The other four grains are, in no order, barley, rice, millet, and foxtail millet. The taste is earthy but clean and light, a wholesome-tasting beer. Not bad, but with so much else thrown in, it's hard to say exactly what the effect of the soybeans is. It is called "Gokoku No Megumi"(Blessing of Five Grains) if anyone is interested in further research. Kanpai! Bryan Bonser Yamanashi, Japan bbonser at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
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