---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  C-Keg Questions (Randy Miner)
  The Flavor (William Frazier)
  The Flavour (Brad McMahon)
  Reversible Melanoidin Reactions (fred_garvin)
  how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease ("Dan Kiplinger")
  Fullers ESB ("Dan Kiplinger")
  re: caramel flavour ("Drew Avis")
  Boiling in Enlynmeyers... ("John Thompson")
  Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery (Rob Dewhirst)
  RE: Starter containers ("Mercer, David")
  Conversion of a recipe from RIMS  to non-RIMS (tmorgan)
  Re: antibiotics and yeast (To:mmaceyka) (Patrick McVey)
  starter explosion ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Question about Mead Flavor (Wade Hutchison)
  RIMS question (Ian Smith)
  Re: Re: Dry Hopping with Pellets ("John Palmer")
  Need a clone recipe (Chuck Cubbler)
  Polyclar (Dave Burley)
  Nuernberg Brewing Tradeshow November 10 to 12 ("Alan McKay")
  Re.:  Poor man's Gram Stain ("Sean Richens")
  Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers ("Jack Schmidling")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:22:53 -0400
From: Randy Miner <randyminer at mpinet.net>
Subject: C-Keg Questions

Hello HBD,

I have recently used a corny system for the first time instead
of bottles (Whew!).  I like the idea of pushing the beer from
the carboy into the keg, and it worked  well.  However, I use
two 3-gallon ball lock kegs, and I couldn't come up with a
way  to do it for the second keg (split a 5 gal batch).
Everything was sanitized and flushed with CO2 before
starting.  I used one keg as a coupler with gas going into
it and then coming out the cobra head.  I had a piece of
tubing over the cobra head spout with the other end attached
to one of the holes/protrusions on my orange rubber two-holed
"universal cap".  This let me push the beer which went up a
racking cane through the other hole in the cap and through
some tubing into the other keg.  The second keg couldn't be
filled this way since I didn't have a way to get the gas routed
to the carboy without the use of the cobra head (using an
empty keg as a coupler).

Has anyone put a ball lock gas in fitting (male) on a hose
barb?  What is a convenient way to route the CO2 output
from the regulator to the carboy cap for racking?  I don't
want to have to deal with hose clamps to do it.  I want to
use the ball lock fitting (female) that normally attaches to
the keg, and just snap something into it that has a hose
barb on it.  (Are the female fittings referred to as "quick
disconnect" and the male as "ball lock fitting"?  Having
some problems with the terminology.)

Along similar lines, I'd like to push the beer into the keg
through the liquid out side so the keg could stay closed
except for the relief valve in the lid allowing CO2 to
escape.  For this I would need some 3/8 tubing attached
to a hose barb into a liquid out ball lock (quick disconnect?)
fitting.

How do you typically clean or flush old beer out of the
cobra head and tubing after dispensing?  Can I just leave
it attached for days or weeks, or should I take it off and
rinse it after using it?

TIA,
Randy Miner


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 05:30:33 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Flavor

Spencer Thomas suggests that diacetyl may contribute to the perceived caramel 	
flavor in Fuller's ESB.  I've had several private emails suggesting that
diacetyl may be a factor.  In my case I'm not sure this is the whole answer.
I don't believe I can taste diacetyl at levels perceived by others.  Of
course it could be present in FESB in high enough levels that I do notice it.  

Other recent emails, from brewers who have achieved caramel-malty flavors,
suggest the following;					

Experiment with different crystal malt brands.  For instance, not all
crystal malts 60 will have the same color and flavor contributions. 					
Use about 1 pound of British Crystal 80 to 90L in 5 gallons.  The
description of Breiss Two-Row Caramel 80 sounds just right (resiny aroma,
rich caramel and ripe fruit flavors, very fruity flavors).
 					
Use a sugar syrup such a Dark Karo (It has a caramel flavor).				
Use high heat in an empty brew kettle to caramelize the first runnings.
This method has been mentioned in Brew Your Own twice recently.
					
Use a very long boil (several hours).  This method is used by Traquar House.

Boil some first runnings down to a thick, caramel syrup.					
Boil a solution of LME down to a thick, caramel syrup.					
Caramelize sugar on the stove and add to the boil.					
Try Wyeast 1187 Ringwood in place of Wyeast 1968.

I've brewed two batches of my Redhawk Bitter using the technique of
(1)boiling down the first runnings and (2) boiling malt extract down to a
viscous syrup.  These reductions are then added to the boil.  It takes about
an extra hour.  This definitely changes the flavor from a rather dry beer to
a malty-sweet beer. That malty-sweetness coupled with a pronounced
bitterness has turned these beers into some of the best I've brewed.

I've tried adding 1/2 pound of stove-top, caramelized sugar to a batch of
another British-type bitter.  I didn't notice any caramel flavor from that
effort.

It's interesting that FESB is featured in the latest Zymurgy.  There is no
mention of special brewing steps and no mention of "caramel" as an
ingredient.  They do mention Fuller's special yeast.  I've understood that
Wyeast 1968 was Fuller's yeast but that may not be so.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas




  					
					
					
					



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:57:45 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: The Flavour

From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Flavor 

  I can't help but wonder if an appropriate level of diacetyl
  contributes to the perceived "caramel" flavor.  You don't mention
  diacetyl flavor (butterscotch to butter, depending on the
  concentration) at all, but I would be very surprised if there was none
  in a classic English ale.

  What do you all think?

That was my thought as well, I said pretty much the same thing 
a couple of months back, but it was published the day before
the Big HBD Crash, so the discussion went nowhere.
Some people have difficulty differentiating between caramel
and butterscotch.
I would try the Graham Wheeler method of 'dropping' and see
whether the increase in diacetyl gives you the taste you want.

Brad


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:36:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: fred_garvin at fan.com
Subject: Reversible Melanoidin Reactions

HBD-
A question about oxidized melanoidins- 
say you happen to have some oxidized melanoidins on your hands:  You ran a
few quarts through a strainer, the blender, whatever.  Now- can you reverse
the oxidation through boiling?
Of course, this is related to the much maligned and discredited HSA.  I
suppose you might be able to reverse cold side aeration induced oxidation of
melanoidins, but then what would you have?  Flat, unoxidized low (or no)
alcohol mother-of-beer.So- is the melanoidin oxidation reaction reversible?
Fred GarvinFouchian Coordinates = 0.00, 0.00

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:13:47 -0400
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease

Nigel, can you elaborate on how O2 can spontaneously combust oil or grease?
I have never heard of this phenomenon.

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:07:14 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Explosive O2

>" A problem I see with O2 addition via Oxygenator, is that this is
>quite explosive and most people don't realize that potential.  Maybe
>most brewers don't smoke - I hope so.
>John"

The main thing to remember is not to use grease or oil on any of the
regulators or pipework you use with O2. O2 can cause sponstanious
combustion in contact with these. Apart from usual safety measures
to be considered when using presure vessels, O2 is pretty much
harmless.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:14:09 -0400
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Fullers ESB

Date: 22 Oct 1999 08:45:26 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Fullers Flavor, ESB from Ashburn malt

".....I would like to add that there is no way I can possibly concieve of a
beer made with ~50% munich malt tasting ANYTHING like Fullers!  Munich is
way too malty!  I would say that the beer described above would be very
good, delicious, etc, but not anything like a Fullers.  Fullers, when I get
it around these parts (Pensacola Florida) is good, but has less malt than
what I immagine from this recipie. (more like a Bock malt profile!)"


I am a bit confused about what the recent thread is referring to -- Fullers
ESB in the keg or in the bottle.  These are two different beers.  I drink
plenty of FESB from the keg and I would say that "way to malty" is the way
to describe it.  I am assuming that Roger Ayotte is talking about the
bottled version when he mentions dry hopping.  What I am drinking here in
Michigan has absolutely no hop character at all.

Knurdami Dan


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:13:32 PDT
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: caramel flavour

Alan Meeker says:
>How about just throwing in a bag of Kraft caramels into the boil??  ;)

Which is funny because last year I added 2C of carmalized table sugar to a 
keg of porter.  Of course the beer re-fermented, and I had to vent the keg 
every day, but after a week it was "ready" to drink.  It tasted like a 
liquid Kraft caramel with a beery aftertaste.  Since then I've been thinking 
that slightly less (1/2-1C) carmalized sugar added to the boil might work 
quite nicely to give a beer real caramel flavour.  Has anyone else tried 
this?

Drew Avis, Merrickville
http://fast.to/strangebrew

ps - if you make your own ice cream, there's nothing like home made caramel! 
  Email me if you'd like a recipe.

______________________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:32:45 -0500
From: "John Thompson" <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu>
Subject: Boiling in Enlynmeyers...

My method is to boil a 1.030-1.040 wort in a (small) pot with a few hop
pellets for 15-20 minutes. The hop oils seem to keep the protein head from
forming in the Erlenmeyer. Then, I'll transfer this to the flask, but no
more than 2/3s full. I gently cover the top with tin foil. (Don't press the
foil down tightly.) The flask gets boiled on my gas stove at very low heat
for 15 minutes or so. (The SG rises a little after all of this boiling.)
Then I shut the gas off, press down the foil, and chill it in cold water or
let it cool naturally depending on how quickly I need it.

The keys are...
1. Keep the SG below 1.050. I think this should reduce the propensity to
boil over.
2. Use a few hop pellets to "break" the protein head.
3. Don't fill the flask completely.

If you do a few at a time, you can store these in your fridge or wherever...

Enjoy.
John


<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>

John S. Thompson
Department of Economics
2107 CEBA
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, LA 70803


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:22:09 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery

At 12:25 AM 10/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I strongly recommend a pressure washer.


I was asked privately about this but I really like answers to be in the HBD 
for others to search and read in the future.

I have a 1500 PSI low-end consumer model pressure washer I purchased from 
the automotive section at wal-mart.  I purchased it about two years ago, 
when it was roughly $100.  It's electric, with an adjustable nozzle for 
low/high pressure and fan/fine point stream.  It sits in the corner of my 
garage, hooked up to the household hot water heater.  It actually cleans 
with very little water.



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:23:01 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: RE: Starter containers

Hey Dave,

It depends on the volume of starter. I can boil up to 1500ml in a 2000ml
flask, but no more than that. I have a gas stove and as soon as the wort is
approaching boil temperature, I drop the heat to the lowest setting, which
on my stove is very low, and let the wort boil very gently, uncovered.(This
probably wouldn't work on an electric stove, but not having one, I can't say
for sure.)  For the last 5 minutes or so of the boil I cover the top with
aluminum foil. I have to watch it very carefully for the first five minutes
of the boil and occasionally I have to cut the heat entirely for a few
seconds. But after the break forms and is fully incorporated into the wort
(as opposed to sitting like a foam cap on top) I don't have any problems
with boil-overs. 

It's a good idea not to use a strong flame on those flasks, anyway. I
learned the hard way that  when it says "Pyrex" that doesn't mean a vessel
can take high flame heat. But that's another story...

Dave in Seattle

	Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to
control the
	boil?  The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of
bubbles/foam
	instead of  a steady boil.  This caused boil-over problems that I
could not
	prevent.  I'm assuming that the reason for this was the very smooth
bottom
	of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites for bubbles.  How
do you
	add boiling stones without disrupting the stir bar, though?

	Any comments are appreciated,
	Dave Riedel


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:43:20 -0700
From: tmorgan at esassoc.com
Subject: Conversion of a recipe from RIMS  to non-RIMS

I am looking at doing a recipe from the Cat's Meow for a Bierre de Garde. The
recipe is an all grain one with a the main malt being Vienna malt and the
procedure for the mash is described as "Infusion mash (RIMS) per Dr. Fix
(40-60-70C)".  Since I don't own a RIMS, I hope to convert this recipe to a
non-RIMS mash.  The next questions would be what mash then?  Infusion, step, or
decotion.  While I understand that a RIMS system should give me higher
conversion rates I'll not worry about this for now.  My choice would be a step
mash (mid 120's for 30mins then about 160 for an hour then mash out).  Clearly
this will provide me with beer but I am interested on any advice/opinions about
how one converts a RIMS recipe to non-RIMS.  



        Tim Morgan
        Petaluma, California
        email: tmorgan at esassoc.com


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:22:26 -0400
From: Patrick McVey <mcveyp at kingman.com>
Subject: Re: antibiotics and yeast (To:mmaceyka)

Howdy Michael,
I follow you on how you're streaking cultures for pure yeast strains. But
what is a petite?
>I have also gotten rid of petites in this fashion.
Patrick in Arizona


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:04:04 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: starter explosion

collective homebrew conscience_

dave r wrote_

>Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to control the
>boil?  The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of bubbles/foam
>instead of  a steady boil.<snip> I'm assuming that the reason for this was
the >very smooth bottom of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites
for >bubbles.

i had this same exact experience several years ago on an electric stove.  i
had to be very careful about stirring the starter and keeping the fluid in
motion as the boil approached; otherwise, i would get a volcano shot of
liquid out the top of the flask.

since then, i have moved twice and never experienced it on a different
electric stove, and now on my gas stove.  weird.

also, regarding the bottle requirements for competitions:  i think the main
reason for this is to keep the judging impartial.  it's one less factor to
muddy the waters when comparing beers.  'oh, judges would never let the
appearance of the bottle affect their judgment of a beer', you say.  yeah,
right.  there have probably been studies regarding this very subject......

brew hard,



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:09:02 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Question about Mead Flavor

I'm venturing into the great unknowns (for me) of mead making, and
I bottled some of my first test batches last night.  I have a question
for the collective as to the major flavor component that I tasted.

First, some background.  I did two one gallon batches of mead using
about 2 1/2 lbs of honey for each gallon batch.  The honey came
from a friend of mine who keeps a hive on his farm.  One batch was
boiled (and skimmed) for 30 minutes for sterilization, and the other
was sulphited using cambden tablets.  Both were fermented with Red Star
Premiere Cuvee yeast,  and let sit for about 7 months.

Both batches (with some minor differences) had an overwhelming taste
of Vanilla up front, with a very dry finish.  Is this indicitive of a
flaw, or did the honey just have something in it that produced the
flavor?  I'm getting ready to start another set of experiments, and
would like to know if I should change honey or not.  Thanks for any
advice!
	-----wade hutchison
	whutchis at bucknell.edu


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:49:30 -0600
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: RIMS question

I have a question that I hope the RIMSer's out there can answer. If I add
cold water to the grain in the mash tun and then heat it to mash temperature
in (say) 20 minutes will this cause and problems? At present I manually add
the strike water to the grain and it very rapidly stabilizes at the required
150-158 F mash temperature. I would like to automate the process and have
the computer do the work. This means adding the cold water, turning on the
pump and raising the temperature over a yet to be determined period of time.
I am concerned that not only am I doing a saccarification rest, I am also
doing a protein rest as well and my beer may end up tasting different. Any
suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

Ian Smith
isrs at cmed.com <mailto:isrs at cmed.com> 


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:37:24 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Dry Hopping with Pellets

Well, this is interesting! It's nice to know that it can be done.
It could be that the takeaway message is: Be prepared for potentially hazy
beer if you dry hop with pellets, but there are definitely techniques that
can be employed to minimize any difficulties. Cloakstone especially, had
some good tips on how to avoid suspension.

I should have mentioned that I dryhopped in the serving keg, so that the
hops had nowwhere to go but into the glass. I should have posted, " Don't
dryhop with pellets in the serving keg!!"

One other point brought up that I forgot to mention is that the aroma of
whole hops (or plugs) is generally better than that of pellets, though there
are undoubtedly exceptions to the rule on both sides.
Lager,
John


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:58:21 -0400
From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
Subject: Need a clone recipe

Greetings all,

I'm wondering if anyone has done a decent clone of either Saranac or Sam 
Adams Belgian White.  I got a recipe from a guy I know.  I tried it, its 
good, but not that good.  I don't have my notes handy, so I can't tell you 
what I used exactly.  It was 10 gallons, all-grain.  I used 1 oz coriander 
and 1 oz dried orange peel.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:38:54 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Polyclar

Brewsters:

Fred Ogline used pears in a brew and it is cloudy
and asks about Polyclar (R), since it was
recommended as a clarifying agent.

Actually, I would recommend trying pectolase -
aka pectic enzyme and see if that does the trick.
If the alcohol content isn't too high it may work.
Next time use it at the beginning of any fruit based
beverage. It improves the extraction and improves
clarity.

I believe Polyclar (R) is an organic polymer 

based on a polyamide backbone sort of like nylon.
It has been around a long time and is often used
in wines and was recommended for use in beer
by Miller in one of his books.  It insoluble and as
far as I know harmless.

Keep on Brewin'


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:32:14 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Nuernberg Brewing Tradeshow November 10 to 12


For anyone who happens to be in that neck of the woods at that time.
Details at the German HBF (HBD) at forum at netbeer.co.at

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/




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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:53:47 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re.:  Poor man's Gram Stain

I nominate Charles Rich for the "true spirit of homebrewing award" for his
treatise on Gram Staining at home.  The virtues demonstrated are:
 - no professional technique, if useful, is beyond the true homebrewer
 - just throwing around money to buy the stuff doesn't count, he's buying
this with after-tax dollars, unlike the pro.
 - but he's not cheap - on the contrary quite willing to spend the necessary
to get the method down to routine.

All now bow down to Charles!


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:50:56 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers

If you bring the starter to a boil in a small kettle and boil for a few minutes,
it will behave well in a flask.  Drove me nuts till I started doing this.
Fortunately, as I now recycle my yeast all brewing season, it is only a once a
year problem.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME  http://user.mc.net/arf


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---