HOMEBREW Digest #3156 Fri 29 October 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  C-Keg Questions (Randy Miner)
  The Flavor (William Frazier)
  The Flavour (Brad McMahon)
  Reversible Melanoidin Reactions (fred_garvin)
  how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease ("Dan Kiplinger")
  Fullers ESB ("Dan Kiplinger")
  re: caramel flavour ("Drew Avis")
  Boiling in Enlynmeyers... ("John Thompson")
  Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery (Rob Dewhirst)
  RE: Starter containers ("Mercer, David")
  Conversion of a recipe from RIMS  to non-RIMS (tmorgan)
  Re: antibiotics and yeast (To:mmaceyka) (Patrick McVey)
  starter explosion ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Question about Mead Flavor (Wade Hutchison)
  RIMS question (Ian Smith)
  Re: Re: Dry Hopping with Pellets ("John Palmer")
  Need a clone recipe (Chuck Cubbler)
  Polyclar (Dave Burley)
  Nuernberg Brewing Tradeshow November 10 to 12 ("Alan McKay")
  Re.:  Poor man's Gram Stain ("Sean Richens")
  Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers ("Jack Schmidling")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:22:53 -0400 From: Randy Miner <randyminer at mpinet.net> Subject: C-Keg Questions Hello HBD, I have recently used a corny system for the first time instead of bottles (Whew!). I like the idea of pushing the beer from the carboy into the keg, and it worked well. However, I use two 3-gallon ball lock kegs, and I couldn't come up with a way to do it for the second keg (split a 5 gal batch). Everything was sanitized and flushed with CO2 before starting. I used one keg as a coupler with gas going into it and then coming out the cobra head. I had a piece of tubing over the cobra head spout with the other end attached to one of the holes/protrusions on my orange rubber two-holed "universal cap". This let me push the beer which went up a racking cane through the other hole in the cap and through some tubing into the other keg. The second keg couldn't be filled this way since I didn't have a way to get the gas routed to the carboy without the use of the cobra head (using an empty keg as a coupler). Has anyone put a ball lock gas in fitting (male) on a hose barb? What is a convenient way to route the CO2 output from the regulator to the carboy cap for racking? I don't want to have to deal with hose clamps to do it. I want to use the ball lock fitting (female) that normally attaches to the keg, and just snap something into it that has a hose barb on it. (Are the female fittings referred to as "quick disconnect" and the male as "ball lock fitting"? Having some problems with the terminology.) Along similar lines, I'd like to push the beer into the keg through the liquid out side so the keg could stay closed except for the relief valve in the lid allowing CO2 to escape. For this I would need some 3/8 tubing attached to a hose barb into a liquid out ball lock (quick disconnect?) fitting. How do you typically clean or flush old beer out of the cobra head and tubing after dispensing? Can I just leave it attached for days or weeks, or should I take it off and rinse it after using it? TIA, Randy Miner Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 05:30:33 +0000 From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: The Flavor Spencer Thomas suggests that diacetyl may contribute to the perceived caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB. I've had several private emails suggesting that diacetyl may be a factor. In my case I'm not sure this is the whole answer. I don't believe I can taste diacetyl at levels perceived by others. Of course it could be present in FESB in high enough levels that I do notice it. Other recent emails, from brewers who have achieved caramel-malty flavors, suggest the following; Experiment with different crystal malt brands. For instance, not all crystal malts 60 will have the same color and flavor contributions. Use about 1 pound of British Crystal 80 to 90L in 5 gallons. The description of Breiss Two-Row Caramel 80 sounds just right (resiny aroma, rich caramel and ripe fruit flavors, very fruity flavors). Use a sugar syrup such a Dark Karo (It has a caramel flavor). Use high heat in an empty brew kettle to caramelize the first runnings. This method has been mentioned in Brew Your Own twice recently. Use a very long boil (several hours). This method is used by Traquar House. Boil some first runnings down to a thick, caramel syrup. Boil a solution of LME down to a thick, caramel syrup. Caramelize sugar on the stove and add to the boil. Try Wyeast 1187 Ringwood in place of Wyeast 1968. I've brewed two batches of my Redhawk Bitter using the technique of (1)boiling down the first runnings and (2) boiling malt extract down to a viscous syrup. These reductions are then added to the boil. It takes about an extra hour. This definitely changes the flavor from a rather dry beer to a malty-sweet beer. That malty-sweetness coupled with a pronounced bitterness has turned these beers into some of the best I've brewed. I've tried adding 1/2 pound of stove-top, caramelized sugar to a batch of another British-type bitter. I didn't notice any caramel flavor from that effort. It's interesting that FESB is featured in the latest Zymurgy. There is no mention of special brewing steps and no mention of "caramel" as an ingredient. They do mention Fuller's special yeast. I've understood that Wyeast 1968 was Fuller's yeast but that may not be so. Bill Frazier Johnson County, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:57:45 +0930 From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: The Flavour From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: The Flavor I can't help but wonder if an appropriate level of diacetyl contributes to the perceived "caramel" flavor. You don't mention diacetyl flavor (butterscotch to butter, depending on the concentration) at all, but I would be very surprised if there was none in a classic English ale. What do you all think? That was my thought as well, I said pretty much the same thing a couple of months back, but it was published the day before the Big HBD Crash, so the discussion went nowhere. Some people have difficulty differentiating between caramel and butterscotch. I would try the Graham Wheeler method of 'dropping' and see whether the increase in diacetyl gives you the taste you want. Brad Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:36:41 -0400 (EDT) From: fred_garvin at fan.com Subject: Reversible Melanoidin Reactions HBD- A question about oxidized melanoidins- say you happen to have some oxidized melanoidins on your hands: You ran a few quarts through a strainer, the blender, whatever. Now- can you reverse the oxidation through boiling? Of course, this is related to the much maligned and discredited HSA. I suppose you might be able to reverse cold side aeration induced oxidation of melanoidins, but then what would you have? Flat, unoxidized low (or no) alcohol mother-of-beer.So- is the melanoidin oxidation reaction reversible? Fred GarvinFouchian Coordinates = 0.00, 0.00 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:13:47 -0400 From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com> Subject: how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease Nigel, can you elaborate on how O2 can spontaneously combust oil or grease? I have never heard of this phenomenon. Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:07:14 +0100 From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Explosive O2 >" A problem I see with O2 addition via Oxygenator, is that this is >quite explosive and most people don't realize that potential. Maybe >most brewers don't smoke - I hope so. >John" The main thing to remember is not to use grease or oil on any of the regulators or pipework you use with O2. O2 can cause sponstanious combustion in contact with these. Apart from usual safety measures to be considered when using presure vessels, O2 is pretty much harmless. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:14:09 -0400 From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com> Subject: Fullers ESB Date: 22 Oct 1999 08:45:26 -0400 From: RCAYOT at solutia.com Subject: Fullers Flavor, ESB from Ashburn malt ".....I would like to add that there is no way I can possibly concieve of a beer made with ~50% munich malt tasting ANYTHING like Fullers! Munich is way too malty! I would say that the beer described above would be very good, delicious, etc, but not anything like a Fullers. Fullers, when I get it around these parts (Pensacola Florida) is good, but has less malt than what I immagine from this recipie. (more like a Bock malt profile!)" I am a bit confused about what the recent thread is referring to -- Fullers ESB in the keg or in the bottle. These are two different beers. I drink plenty of FESB from the keg and I would say that "way to malty" is the way to describe it. I am assuming that Roger Ayotte is talking about the bottled version when he mentions dry hopping. What I am drinking here in Michigan has absolutely no hop character at all. Knurdami Dan Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:13:32 PDT From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: re: caramel flavour Alan Meeker says: >How about just throwing in a bag of Kraft caramels into the boil?? ;) Which is funny because last year I added 2C of carmalized table sugar to a keg of porter. Of course the beer re-fermented, and I had to vent the keg every day, but after a week it was "ready" to drink. It tasted like a liquid Kraft caramel with a beery aftertaste. Since then I've been thinking that slightly less (1/2-1C) carmalized sugar added to the boil might work quite nicely to give a beer real caramel flavour. Has anyone else tried this? Drew Avis, Merrickville http://fast.to/strangebrew ps - if you make your own ice cream, there's nothing like home made caramel! Email me if you'd like a recipe. ______________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 08:32:45 -0500 From: "John Thompson" <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu> Subject: Boiling in Enlynmeyers... My method is to boil a 1.030-1.040 wort in a (small) pot with a few hop pellets for 15-20 minutes. The hop oils seem to keep the protein head from forming in the Erlenmeyer. Then, I'll transfer this to the flask, but no more than 2/3s full. I gently cover the top with tin foil. (Don't press the foil down tightly.) The flask gets boiled on my gas stove at very low heat for 15 minutes or so. (The SG rises a little after all of this boiling.) Then I shut the gas off, press down the foil, and chill it in cold water or let it cool naturally depending on how quickly I need it. The keys are... 1. Keep the SG below 1.050. I think this should reduce the propensity to boil over. 2. Use a few hop pellets to "break" the protein head. 3. Don't fill the flask completely. If you do a few at a time, you can store these in your fridge or wherever... Enjoy. John <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> John S. Thompson Department of Economics 2107 CEBA Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, LA 70803 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:22:09 -0500 From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu> Subject: Re: Cleaning new 3 tier brewery At 12:25 AM 10/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >I strongly recommend a pressure washer. I was asked privately about this but I really like answers to be in the HBD for others to search and read in the future. I have a 1500 PSI low-end consumer model pressure washer I purchased from the automotive section at wal-mart. I purchased it about two years ago, when it was roughly $100. It's electric, with an adjustable nozzle for low/high pressure and fan/fine point stream. It sits in the corner of my garage, hooked up to the household hot water heater. It actually cleans with very little water. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:23:01 -0700 From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org> Subject: RE: Starter containers Hey Dave, It depends on the volume of starter. I can boil up to 1500ml in a 2000ml flask, but no more than that. I have a gas stove and as soon as the wort is approaching boil temperature, I drop the heat to the lowest setting, which on my stove is very low, and let the wort boil very gently, uncovered.(This probably wouldn't work on an electric stove, but not having one, I can't say for sure.) For the last 5 minutes or so of the boil I cover the top with aluminum foil. I have to watch it very carefully for the first five minutes of the boil and occasionally I have to cut the heat entirely for a few seconds. But after the break forms and is fully incorporated into the wort (as opposed to sitting like a foam cap on top) I don't have any problems with boil-overs. It's a good idea not to use a strong flame on those flasks, anyway. I learned the hard way that when it says "Pyrex" that doesn't mean a vessel can take high flame heat. But that's another story... Dave in Seattle Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to control the boil? The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of bubbles/foam instead of a steady boil. This caused boil-over problems that I could not prevent. I'm assuming that the reason for this was the very smooth bottom of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites for bubbles. How do you add boiling stones without disrupting the stir bar, though? Any comments are appreciated, Dave Riedel Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:43:20 -0700 From: tmorgan at esassoc.com Subject: Conversion of a recipe from RIMS to non-RIMS I am looking at doing a recipe from the Cat's Meow for a Bierre de Garde. The recipe is an all grain one with a the main malt being Vienna malt and the procedure for the mash is described as "Infusion mash (RIMS) per Dr. Fix (40-60-70C)". Since I don't own a RIMS, I hope to convert this recipe to a non-RIMS mash. The next questions would be what mash then? Infusion, step, or decotion. While I understand that a RIMS system should give me higher conversion rates I'll not worry about this for now. My choice would be a step mash (mid 120's for 30mins then about 160 for an hour then mash out). Clearly this will provide me with beer but I am interested on any advice/opinions about how one converts a RIMS recipe to non-RIMS. Tim Morgan Petaluma, California email: tmorgan at esassoc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:22:26 -0400 From: Patrick McVey <mcveyp at kingman.com> Subject: Re: antibiotics and yeast (To:mmaceyka) Howdy Michael, I follow you on how you're streaking cultures for pure yeast strains. But what is a petite? >I have also gotten rid of petites in this fashion. Patrick in Arizona Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:04:04 -0700 From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com> Subject: starter explosion collective homebrew conscience_ dave r wrote_ >Regarding boiling in Erlenmeyers... how do you guys manage to control the >boil? The one time I tried it, I got periodic explosions of bubbles/foam >instead of a steady boil.<snip> I'm assuming that the reason for this was the >very smooth bottom of the flask not providing enough nucleation sites for >bubbles. i had this same exact experience several years ago on an electric stove. i had to be very careful about stirring the starter and keeping the fluid in motion as the boil approached; otherwise, i would get a volcano shot of liquid out the top of the flask. since then, i have moved twice and never experienced it on a different electric stove, and now on my gas stove. weird. also, regarding the bottle requirements for competitions: i think the main reason for this is to keep the judging impartial. it's one less factor to muddy the waters when comparing beers. 'oh, judges would never let the appearance of the bottle affect their judgment of a beer', you say. yeah, right. there have probably been studies regarding this very subject...... brew hard, Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:09:02 -0400 From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu> Subject: Question about Mead Flavor I'm venturing into the great unknowns (for me) of mead making, and I bottled some of my first test batches last night. I have a question for the collective as to the major flavor component that I tasted. First, some background. I did two one gallon batches of mead using about 2 1/2 lbs of honey for each gallon batch. The honey came from a friend of mine who keeps a hive on his farm. One batch was boiled (and skimmed) for 30 minutes for sterilization, and the other was sulphited using cambden tablets. Both were fermented with Red Star Premiere Cuvee yeast, and let sit for about 7 months. Both batches (with some minor differences) had an overwhelming taste of Vanilla up front, with a very dry finish. Is this indicitive of a flaw, or did the honey just have something in it that produced the flavor? I'm getting ready to start another set of experiments, and would like to know if I should change honey or not. Thanks for any advice! -----wade hutchison whutchis at bucknell.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:49:30 -0600 From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com> Subject: RIMS question I have a question that I hope the RIMSer's out there can answer. If I add cold water to the grain in the mash tun and then heat it to mash temperature in (say) 20 minutes will this cause and problems? At present I manually add the strike water to the grain and it very rapidly stabilizes at the required 150-158 F mash temperature. I would like to automate the process and have the computer do the work. This means adding the cold water, turning on the pump and raising the temperature over a yet to be determined period of time. I am concerned that not only am I doing a saccarification rest, I am also doing a protein rest as well and my beer may end up tasting different. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Cheers! Ian Smith isrs at cmed.com <mailto:isrs at cmed.com> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:37:24 -0700 From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Re: Re: Dry Hopping with Pellets Well, this is interesting! It's nice to know that it can be done. It could be that the takeaway message is: Be prepared for potentially hazy beer if you dry hop with pellets, but there are definitely techniques that can be employed to minimize any difficulties. Cloakstone especially, had some good tips on how to avoid suspension. I should have mentioned that I dryhopped in the serving keg, so that the hops had nowwhere to go but into the glass. I should have posted, " Don't dryhop with pellets in the serving keg!!" One other point brought up that I forgot to mention is that the aroma of whole hops (or plugs) is generally better than that of pellets, though there are undoubtedly exceptions to the rule on both sides. Lager, John Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:58:21 -0400 From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com> Subject: Need a clone recipe Greetings all, I'm wondering if anyone has done a decent clone of either Saranac or Sam Adams Belgian White. I got a recipe from a guy I know. I tried it, its good, but not that good. I don't have my notes handy, so I can't tell you what I used exactly. It was 10 gallons, all-grain. I used 1 oz coriander and 1 oz dried orange peel. Any suggestions? Thanks, Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:38:54 -0400 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Polyclar Brewsters: Fred Ogline used pears in a brew and it is cloudy and asks about Polyclar (R), since it was recommended as a clarifying agent. Actually, I would recommend trying pectolase - aka pectic enzyme and see if that does the trick. If the alcohol content isn't too high it may work. Next time use it at the beginning of any fruit based beverage. It improves the extraction and improves clarity. I believe Polyclar (R) is an organic polymer based on a polyamide backbone sort of like nylon. It has been around a long time and is often used in wines and was recommended for use in beer by Miller in one of his books. It insoluble and as far as I know harmless. Keep on Brewin' Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:32:14 -0400 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com> Subject: Nuernberg Brewing Tradeshow November 10 to 12 For anyone who happens to be in that neck of the woods at that time. Details at the German HBF (HBD) at forum at netbeer.co.at cheers, -Alan - -- Alan McKay amckay at ottawa.com http://www.bodensatz.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:53:47 -0500 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: Re.: Poor man's Gram Stain I nominate Charles Rich for the "true spirit of homebrewing award" for his treatise on Gram Staining at home. The virtues demonstrated are: - no professional technique, if useful, is beyond the true homebrewer - just throwing around money to buy the stuff doesn't count, he's buying this with after-tax dollars, unlike the pro. - but he's not cheap - on the contrary quite willing to spend the necessary to get the method down to routine. All now bow down to Charles! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:50:56 -0500 From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net> Subject: Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers If you bring the starter to a boil in a small kettle and boil for a few minutes, it will behave well in a flask. Drove me nuts till I started doing this. Fortunately, as I now recycle my yeast all brewing season, it is only a once a year problem. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME http://user.mc.net/arf Return to table of contents
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