---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Subject: Book..... ("Jack Schmidling")
  Yeast Generations ??? (Biergiek)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Lambic Yeast and Sanitation (Mike Harkness)
  Never the same yeast twice... (MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA)
  "Lambic Lovers' Digest" (pbabcock)
  Want more Hop Flavor (woodsj)
  Anyone going to SANS in SF in December? (Alan McKay)
  Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers ("Sieja, Edward M")
  Oxygen woes (Wade Hutchison)
  Zymurgy woes ("Donald D. Lake")
  I though yeast just went dormant.... ("Kelly")
  Re: RIMS question (Rob Dewhirst)
  O2 can spontaneously combust ? ("Michael Maag")
  Fullers ESB and other Fullers Ramblings ("Arnish, John J.")
  Munton's Wheat LME (Paul Haaf)
  Re: Oxygen spontaneous combustion (Alex Hazlett)
  boiling in a flask (jliddil)
  O2 and spontaneous combustion. ("Peter J. Calinski")
  bubbles, tiny and otherwise (jim english)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:04:19 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Subject: Book.....


> hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
>Subject: Book: Principles of Brewing Science 2

>Come to think of it, this is about the time George Fix should pop 
into the HBD with a post... his posts seem to be favorably timed with the 
release dates of his new publications.  I wonder if he learned these 
marketing strategies from Schmidling?

Actually, he failed the course.  He is still working and I retired at age 40.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME  http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:43:42 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: Yeast Generations ???

Could someone other than Fred Garvin please elaborate on how yeast multiply 
during the growth stage of fermentation?  (no diagrams please, and use words 
less than 3 syllables if possible)  I am interested in understanding how one 
can limit yeast growth to 3X-5X for lagers and double that for ales, and why 
this is important.  Thanks.

Kyle 


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:29:17 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report
AHA..By the Book
     Jim Liddil points out what he feels are shortcomings of the AHA.....as
he has done for years....by now, I can tell you that as a member of the AHA
BoA, I would like to hire Jim ....every organization needs to have someone
to tell them when they are causing problems, and in Jim, I know the AHA
would have someone to keep us away from the reefs, as it were.
     In any other circumstance than the one which is problematic at the
moment, I would say that Jim and others would have a legitimate beef......
     But, in this instance, I believe that that certain parties have paid a
"Pre-Publication" price for a book....this implies that the book is not yet
published... by the AOB or any other party....And as a result of accepting
this Pre-Pub deal, there is a price saving, on both cost and shipping.
     But, in this instance, the book isn't published yet. More time is
required......Does this negate the fact of cost savings in the deal? No..the
buyer still will get the deal they sought. A book, available at a savings
over the standard price, will arrive.....albeit at a later date.
And what has this to do with AHA? Brewers Publications prints the books.
    My advice is, if anyone is so ticked off that they won't enjoy a
discount on a book, with no shipping charges...before anyone else gets the
book at full price with all charges....please, lets refund their money.

GABF
     Jim also complains that the GABF may not happen next year, as Currigan
Hall may not be available.
     The way I understand it, the City Of Denver has planned to bulldoze
Currigan to make way for other projects. Apparently, it is up to a vote of
the City Council to decide the fate of the hall. It seems certain that this
venue will not last long, however, the actual date remains up in the air.
Some seem to think it will occur in June/July 2000, and others seem to think
it will be in November 2000.
     If it is in J/J, then Jim, you have seen your last GABF in Currigan. If
it is in November...then you have one to go. But, does that mean that GABF
is dead? No wuckers, mate! I can assure you that GABF will live on, long
after Currigan is dead.

Dry Hopping with Pellets
     It always worked for me, with brilliant clarity, even with as much as
15 pounds of pellets in a 7 bbl batch.

New Members  at  GABF
     Congrats to Paul and the rest of the AOB staff for signing up over a
hundred new members to the AHA  at  GABF! And welcome to the new members!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net
jethro at isunet.net

AHA
BoA/AHA
IBS
MBAA
Siebel Alumni Association
Lallemand
BrewRat

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 06:33:55 -0400
From: Mike Harkness <mharknes at umd.umich.edu>
Subject: Lambic Yeast and Sanitation

Hello in HBD Land,

I'm considering making a Lambic in the next month or so (my first attempt) 
and in researching the process, etc.  I found a comment (I don't remember 
where) that suggested Lambic yeast and bacteria are so strong that 
sanitizing equipment after their use is nearly impossible.  The author 
suggested that any equipment used should forever be dedicated to Lambic 
production as the risk of infecting other beers using the equipment would 
be very high.  Any suggestions or experiences with this issue would be 
helpful.  I don't have a problem dedicating a minimal amount of equipment 
but would prefer not to if I don't need to.

Thanks,


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:14:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA <mmaceyka at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Never the same yeast twice...

Howdy,

	Patrick in Arizona asks about my endorsement of streaking
yeast cultures to single colonies as a method of ensuring or making a pure
culture.  I would even suggest doing this with a culture you already believe
is "pure."  Mutations happen, and with yeast, one of the most common is the
loss of the mitochondrial genome.  When this happens, the yeast are called
"petite" because the colonies are smaller on agar plates than non-mutants.
Cells from petite colonies examined under the microscope are also smaller than
wild type.   Petites are reputed to make crappy beer high in diacetyl (perhaps
good for Fuller's?), but I haven't done the experiment.


Mike Maceyka
Baltimore, MD
Four Square Brewing, coffee brewing, that is...


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:01:35 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: "Lambic Lovers' Digest"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I recall a few years back when the "Lambic Lovers' Digest" was looking for
a new home. anyone know where it got off to? Does it still exist? 

All the recent posting on Lambic just brought it back to mind. I
personally haven't seen an issue for at least two years.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:36:56 -0400
From: woodsj at us.ibm.com
Subject: Want more Hop Flavor



As a confirmed hophead I'm always looking for recipes and ways
to add more hop flavor to my brews.  Been reading a lot recently
about hop teas and how they are made.  Dry hopping doesn't do
it for me.  Even this issue of Zymurgy (yes I'm an AHA member,
no affiliation blah blah blah) has a piece on a hop tea as part of the
Fuller's ESB article and clone recipe.  It seems from my experience
that many recipes with heavy hop schedules add more bitterness
and not flavor.

I did a brief search of HBD archives and found many posts on hop
teas but not how to make and add.  How are hop teas made ?  I've
read about steeping hops at certain temperatures for 2-4 hours and
short boil methods.  Do you add the tea at end of boil or after primary
while racking into secondary ferment ?  It seems there would be
sanitation precautions with adding after primary.  What are the most
effective methods ?

Any advice from the collective would be greatly appreciated.


Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: Anyone going to SANS in SF in December?


Howdy Brewers,

Anyone going to the SANS security conference in SF Dec 11-16?
I just made my travel arrangements today and wouldn't mind getting
together with some other brewers out there.

http://www.sans.org/sf99/sf99.htm

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:50:00 -0500
From: "Sieja, Edward M" <EMSieja at ingr.com>
Subject: Re: Boiling in Erlenmeyers


I have been boiling starters in a 2L erlenmeyer for some time.
At first I tried to monitor it closely as the boil was starting and
still had a few volcanos.  I have found that swirling (essentially
a vigorous stirring) the wort prior to putting it on the burner will
aerate it and prevent any boil-overs.  I still monitor the process
and simply turn the heat to med-low once the boil has started.



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:51:18 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Oxygen woes

Looking over an Oxygen safety Tech Bulletin I got from the Swagelok
Valve company, it appears that spontaneous combustion is not really
the problem.  Materials in a pure O2 environment have a greatly
decreased ignition energy i.e. the amount of energy needed to start
them burning - but not zero, which would be the case with spontaneous
combustion.  The problem is the gas dynamics of O2 flowing from a
high pressure source.  Gas travelling through a pipe at high
velocities (approaching the speed of sound, if the supply pressure
is high enough) will undergo adiabatic (insulated) compression if
it strikes an obstruction or constriction in the line.  During this
compression, the temperature of the gas will rise dramatically.
In the case of O2, this temperature rise may be sufficient to
initiate combustion of the surrounding materials (including the
materials the piping is made of!).  The biggest hazard appears to
be valves downstream of the regulator, where packing materials and
lubricants can ignite with very little temperature rise.
This nearly spontaneous combustion appears to be associated with
flow of _high pressure_ O2.  If you have an oxygen rated regulator, and
keep the pressures low, you would minimize your risk for this
particular hazard of O2.  Hope this helps,
         -----wade hutchison

At 12:10 AM 10/29/1999 , you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:13:47 -0400
>From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
>Subject: how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease

>Nigel, can you elaborate on how O2 can spontaneously combust oil or grease?
>I have never heard of this phenomenon.
>
>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:07:14 +0100
>From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
>Subject: Explosive O2
>
><snip>
>The main thing to remember is not to use grease or oil on any of the
>regulators or pipework you use with O2. O2 can cause sponstanious
>combustion in contact with these. Apart from usual safety measures
>to be considered when using presure vessels, O2 is pretty much
>harmless.



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:45:57 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Zymurgy woes

I received my Nov/Dec 99 Zymurgy the other day ----- and it was simply
underwelming.  It's now down to 64 pages which is half the size of
issues of years past.  While this mag has always had a tilt to the fluff
side (which at my level in the hobby was never a problem to me), there
were absolutely no articles that anyone would classify as even slightly
advanced or technical in regard to homebrewing.

If you are behind in your reading of travelogues and history, you might
find it of interest.  There were nice stories on visiting Moravia &
Germany, along with the history of Fuller's ESB, Belgians and Imperial
Stouts.  The one strong area was the recipes and coverage of the AHA
Nationals.

I, for one, have never been caught up in the ongoing criticism of
Charlie Papazian, the AHA and Zymurgy.  But Charlie's stuff is beginning
to wear on me.  His writing style is as fresh as a two-year-old bottle
of my hefeweizen.

Looking back, that infamous "Bottle opener" issue is looking better and
better.

Don Lake
dlake at amuni.com
Lake Water Brewery
(wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc.)

- ----"It takes a big man to cry.........but it takes a bigger man to
laugh at that man."  -  Jack Handy


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:34:00 -0500
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: I though yeast just went dormant....

Hi All!
I just tried to brew my first batch of mead using a champagne yeast.  I have
had it in the fermenter for about 5 months....just racked it off...primed it
with some corn sugar...and bottled it.  I was careful to keep the residual
yeast in the fermenter from getting contaminated after racking off the
mead.....I had another batch of mead ready and cooled to put back into the
fermenter to reused the yeast.  It has been 3 days...and I see no indication
of carbon dioxide production from fermentation...

I'm wondering if all the yeast is dead?  I'm concerned that my bottled mead
won't ferment....I thought yeast pretty much just went dormant and there
should be a good deal of viable cells left after this period of time.  Any
ideas out there?  If I re-bottle....can I add some new yeast to it...and if
so, how much yeast?  This was a 5 gallon batch.

I've had pretty good luck with my beers so far....and this is my 1st foray
into mead (which tasted quite good....I added 4 cans white grape juice
concentrate and 1 can lemonade concentrate)....and could use some advice...

TIA!!

Kelly
New Orleans



A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention,
With the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:28:09 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: RIMS question

At 12:17 AM 10/29/99 -0400, HBD wrote:


>Subject: RIMS question
>
>I have a question that I hope the RIMSer's out there can answer. If I add
>cold water to the grain in the mash tun and then heat it to mash temperature
>in (say) 20 minutes will this cause and problems? At present I manually add
>the strike water to the grain and it very rapidly stabilizes at the required
>150-158 F mash temperature.


It would help to know what your source of heat is for your RIMS.  An 
electric element on for a full 20 mins might scorch.  Though I've never 
seen this myself.



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:11:43 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: O2 can spontaneously combust ?


Dan asks:
>Nigel, can you elaborate on how O2 can spontaneously combust oil or grease?
>I have never heard of this phenomenon.

Because Nigel wrote:

>The main thing to remember is not to use grease or oil on any of the
>regulators or pipework you use with O2. O2 can cause sponstanious
>combustion in contact with these. Apart from usual safety measures
>to be considered when using presure vessels, O2 is pretty much
>harmless.

Oxygen,combined with grease or oil will combust, but not spontaneously.
As I posted earlier, oxygen lowers the ignition temperature of substances
which will burn, so they will catch fire more easily.  Once ignited,
things burn more quickly, the higher the oxygen concentration.

If you use grease or oil on the connection between the oxygen tank and the
regulator, you can get oil in the regulator.  Also, if you frequently attach
the regulator to the oxygen tank without "cracking the valve" (opening the
valve slightly to blow out dust), you will get dust in the regulator.

If there is dust, oil, or grease in the oxygen regulator and if you turn on
the
oxygen regulator very quickly, it is possible to generate enough heat in the
regulator to ignite the grease/dust.  This is due to the "adiabatic heat of
compression".  The oxygen is at 2000 lbs pressure or more in a full
cylinder.
Quickly turning the valve on causes the oxygen to flow into the regulator
and
almost instantly re-pressurize as the oxygen fills the regulator.
This recompression produces heat.  Since the ignition temperature is lowered
by the oxygen, it does not take much heat to ignite the dust, oil, whatever
in the regulator.  The ignition of the oil or dust will blow the gauges off
the regulator, at least.

The recommended proceedure for connecting an O2 tank to a regulator is:
Make sure the regulator and tank valve connections are free of foreign
materials,
especially oily or greasy substances.
Turn the tank outlet away from personnel.  Stand to the side, not in front,
not
in back.  Before connecting the regulator to the tank valve, momentarily
open
and close the tank valve to blow out any dust.
Connect the regulator to the tank valve.  Tighten connection nut securely
with
an appropriate wrench.
Open the low pressure valve on the regulator.
SLOWLY open the tank valve.

Brew Safely,
Mike Maag, Occupational Safety Inspector.


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:48:21 -0500
From: "Arnish, John J." <jarnish at anl.gov>
Subject: Fullers ESB and other Fullers Ramblings

Alan Meeker writes:

"How about just throwing in a bag of Kraft caramels into the boil??  ;)"

That is essentially what is done with Fullers ESB.  Sort of.  I recently
toured Fullers
while on a trip to England.  The tour guide, although not a brewer, has
worked for the 
company for quite some time and has been given tours for years.  On our tour
the guide 
mentioned how Fullers adds carmelized sugar, forgot what kind, with the
consistancy of mollases 
into the boil.  They throw about a bucket (~5 gal) into
the boil (forgot what size of boil).  Infact the bucket was just sitting
there off to the side after being 
emptied for us to "taste".The guide said Fullers did this because the
caramel adds a nice red color 
to the beer giving the customers "warming welcome" when they sit down and
drink their pint.  Something he said could not be readily achieved using
just
malt.

A few other tidbits, Fullers does not dry hop London Pride, and uses only 1
oz (2 plugs) of hops per firkin for their
ESB. 

The guide also said that Fullers adds ISINGLASS to the boil, not old yeast.
The isinglass was sitting next to
the bucket of caramel.  The old yeast is sold to make maramite and goes bad
in a hurry.  They have huge amounts of yeast to get rid of. Dumpter loads,
why?  Because they filter ALL of their beer.  Including the cask conditioned
ales.  After filtering out the old yeast, they add fresh yeast for
conditioning

After the tour we were given samples of the product line, London Pride,
Chiswick Bitter, Summer Ale, ESB.
On a side note, the guide said the ladies would like the ESB because it was
a little sweeter than their other beers

My only regret on the tour was not taking better notes, I was so in awe that
I didn't think about it.



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:19:46 -0400
From: Paul Haaf <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Munton's Wheat LME

Lately I've been purchasing Munton's Wheat LME in the 3 gal (33 lb)
'buckets'.  The last batch that I bought was NOT wheat malt.  I made two
batches from it, both using 1/2 gal (5 1/2 lbs).  It was either light or
amber LME.  When I complained about this to the homebrew store, they said
that they are aware of the problem, but Munton's refuses to acknowledge
the error.  They (the HB shop) had bought six of these buckets, and
Munton's won't take them back.   So now I have a rather large amount of
LME that is not what I paid for, and doesn't go with my intended recipes.
 Any suggestions on how to solve this problem?  Anybody know how to
contact Munton's?  I like their product, when I get what I pay for, but
that is not the case right now.  As you can imagine, this is holding up
my future brewing.  TIA for any helpful suggestions.  Private e-mail  OK.

Paul
"Too many freaks, not enough circuses"

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:51:49 -1000
From: Alex Hazlett <arexu at aloha.net>
Subject: Re: Oxygen spontaneous combustion

Having just discussed this in a scuba course, I'm happy to have
something I can address to this august body.

Oxygen (and common everyday air) in contact with petroleum products and
some other greases WILL ignite spontaneously at high pressures. Think
diesel engines--no spark plugs, just compression. 
	In scuba it's important because the already compressed air is
constricted in passing through your regulator, at the point it might
encounter lubricated washers (for that matter, the washers themselves
can burn in oxygen). For this reason, if scuba gear is used with air
mixes greater than 40% oxygen, you have to have your gear "oxygen clean"
anywhere it comes in contact with the gas at high pressure. 
	If you are using pure oxygen at pressure to oxygenate your beer, you
may have the same problem. So be careful with lubrication around your
oxygen setup. Most likely, if you have a commercial setup, like the
oxygenator system I saw in my local brewshop, it's been considered by
the manufacturer (as a liability issue), but an oxygen fire is nothing
you want to see.

	Alex Hazlett


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:45:05 -0700 (MST)
From: jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: boiling in a flask

I use an anitfoam agent.  I believe Hoptech sells the stuff.  And I know
Rob Moline mentioned it for use in Barley wines.  But it works great for
boiling also.  I can boil my 3.5 liters in a 4 liter acid bottle with no
worry of boil over.  Vegetable oil might work also.  

Jim


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:25:22 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: O2 and spontaneous combustion.

In HBD #3156, "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com> wrote:
__________________________________________________________________________

"Subject: how O2 can spontaniously combust oil or grease

Nigel, can you elaborate on how O2 can spontaneously combust oil or grease?
I have never heard of this phenomenon."
____________________________________________________________________________


I just have to but in here.  A while back I watched the discussion of oil
in welding O2 in silence.  There can't be any oil in compressed O2. 

Just think of a diesel engine. 

   Oil (diesel fuel) + O2 (air) + pressure = Bang


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:30:27 -0400
From: jim english <jimebob at mindspring.com>
Subject: bubbles, tiny and otherwise

Allright all you science guys out there:

Why do some bubbles in a glass of Heineken (forgive me, a weak moment)
stream upward,  from what I assume to be a nucleation site, on the side
of the glass, in a steady, rapid sequence of small, very evenly spaced
bubbles, while other sites seem to produce fewer, larger, much quicker
rising bubbles?

No Science In School To Speak Of, But A Six-Year Subscrition To Discover
Magazine Jim.

JRE
'hotlanta ga

p.s. Do big bubbles rise faster, period?


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---