---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  PID for RIMS ("Martin Brungard")
  Beautiful San Francisco (Alan McKay)
  RE:Cask ale from a corny ("Philip J Wilcox")
  low carb dieting (Marc Sedam)
  Lunacy ("Paul Niebergall")
  Re: RIMS ("Ludwig's")
  hop tea pH/FWH IBUs/High Gravity ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: RE: RIMS (MaltHound)
  cask breather for corny?? ("jim williams")
  DoppleBock, sparging and attenuation ("Charles E. Mryglot")
  RE:calories ain't caloriesq ("Kelly")
  RE: Hugh Baird going going gone? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Calories, Carbs, Beer, Etc. (Midwest Brewer)
  RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  NA beer and calories ("Alan Meeker")
  Hugh Baird going? ("Vinbrew Supply")
  Irish Red Recipe Wanted ("Mark E. Hogenmiller")
  re coopers sparkling ale (smorgan)
  cask ale in general and in cornies ("gdepiro")
  RE: Hugh Baird going going gone? (bergbrew)
  RE: RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  rims and running (Jim Liddil)
  re: Hugh Baird going, going, gone ("Gary Barbatelli")
  Re: Evil of carbs (JohnT6020)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:50:20 EST
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: PID for RIMS

One of our list members asked me a question about PID temperature 
controllers for RIMS and I thought I would pass some of the info on to the 
list for future reference.

I've researched the PID, solid state relays (SSRs), and thermocouple probes 
from Omega Engineering. I just purchased a small pH meter from them for $35 
plus $5 each for 4.0 and 7.0 buffer solutions. The meter works well. Omega 
is pretty well known in the process engineering field. I had checked on 
their products on their website (www.omega.com) several weeks ago and found 
a PID for $129, SSR & heatsink for $48, and thermocouple probe for $23.

When they sent me the pH meter, they also included their new catalogs and I 
found that some of the products I had priced out were no longer listed in 
the new catalog.

The PID unit most closely matching our price and performance demands had 
changed to a model CN8591-DC1 with a price of $165. The SSR had changed to 
model SSR240DC25 for $26 and heatsink FHS-2 for $17. The thermocouple 
remained unchanged at $23 for model TTIN-18(U)-12. So this setup is going to 
run $231 plus shipping.

I just used my RIMS for the first time on Friday and it has just a manual 
on/off switch controlling the heater element. Considering my temperature 
loss coefficient of 0.14 degrees per minute and heating coefficient of 1.05 
degrees per minute, I can manually maintain the desired temp every 10 or 20 
minutes with a 1 or 2 minute flip of the heater switch.

By the way, my thermometer is located in the return pipe exiting the bottom 
of my tun and I did observe a one to two minute delay in the temperature 
response after turning on the heater switch. I find that it is important to 
know your system's heat response characteristics so that you know about how 
long to energize the heater to get the proper temp rise without 
overshooting.

Considering that its probably unsafe to leave any RIMS unsupervised for a 
significant length of time, I am not sure that a PID is really needed. Since 
the cost of the PID system would just about double the cost of my RIMS, I 
decided to delay adding it to my system initially. Now that I've actually 
mashed with the unit, I'm pretty sure that the PID is not necessary. 
Eventhough I'm a technogeek engineer and the cost is not really an issue, 
the tightwad and pragmatist part of me says that the PID is probably not 
going to happen. I recommend that you try your system manually before adding 
that feature. I felt that I was more a part of the process, and the manual 
temp control was not a hassle. If it had been, I would definitely be in 
favor of the PID system.

I hope this information is useful to anyone contemplating a temperature 
controller for their RIMS.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL

"Meandering to a different drummer"

______________________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:54:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: Beautiful San Francisco


Hey Folks!

Still haven't hooked up with the fellows from the HBD who called me, but I
will.  Our plane got delayed a couple of hours so we endedup getting in at
midnight Friday.  Then Saturday was brutal from 9am til about 9pm straight
through.  And today wasn't much better, but things are shaping up for the
evenings this week.  I'm on a business trip to San Fran right now, and
fortunately the people running the conference I'm at are supplying internet
connections!

Just got back from the Thirsty Bear Brewpub on Howard - managed to sneak out
really quickly for almost 2 hours.  They've got about 10 or so really good
beers.  Though the Brown Ale wasn't very brown at all, and the ESB was on Nitro,
and I really dislike beers on Nitro.  The other two guys I was with each had the
complete sampler, where I only tried the Brown, ESB and Pale Ale.  Actually, the
Pale Ale was overhopped and out of balance.  The ESB was really quite
spectacular if only they didn't have it on Nitro.

Their food is ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.  I had the grilled tuna - first time in my
life I had real tuna that wasn't out of a can, and it was AWESOME.  Somewhat
undercooked in the middle, but the folks there tell me that this is how it's
most often eaten - and to be honest it was so incredible I didn't care in the
least.  Served with sundried tomatoes and grilled green beans which where
absolutely super.

Been drinking a lot of Anchor.  The Steam on tap simply can't be beaten.  SNPA
on tap is good, too, though I honestly can't really see what all the fuss is
about.  Anchor Porter is very good.  SN Porter even better (wonderful nuttiness
to it).  Red Hook ESB leaves a fair bit to be desired, but their Pale Ale is
quite nice!

All-in-all, a great trip so far beer-wise.  Though I'm really suprised at how
expensive beer is here.  In a bar it's $5 US per beer - that's $7.50 CDN when
I'm used to maybe $4 CDN for a good beer.  In the liquor store here in the
Tenderloin district (gotta love a district named after a steak!) a six pack is a
WHOPPING $10 US!!!  WOW!!! And people say that Americans don't homebrew because
of price!  I find that hard to believe now.  Though the instructor in the
seminar today did seem to believe that beer was much more expensive in San Fran
than in most other places.  Back home a 24 of good beer is barely over $30, and
here I just payed $30 (CDN) for 12 beer (6 Anchor and 6 SN).

Anyway, that's all for now.  Won't likely be checking back in on y'all regularly
til the 21st.  

See you all then ...

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:53:50 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: RE:Cask ale from a corny

Micheal J asks about serving gravity feed from a corney, It can be done, but
only on an open system. If you use co2 to fill the space and thus create a
closed system, then you will only dispense at what ever you have your CO2 set
at. I suppose you could start out with gravity by attaching a gass fitting the
keg without the gas line, determine the speed of the pour then connect the
fitting to the gas line and try to match it... I have seen Jeff Renner and Jason
Henning try to play with hooking up an English hand pump with a CO2 bleed, it
doesnt work all that well. It was disconnected and we drank that fabulous Mild
all game long!! YUM!!!!  It can be done with the right parts and From what Jason
said, but thats another investment....

Has anyone put a party pig into a keg? That would work at least for a few
gallons. I wonder if the restriction caused by the diameter of the keg being
smaller than the pig would cause the bag to rupture? That wouldn't taste good.
Would it bend the dip tupe too badly? If you connected 2 of them lengthwise
could you dispense a whole keg? A stapler and some good aim could achieve that.

Hey Jack here is a product opportunity. How about an oyygen barrier corney
bladder? A corney volumed bag with a hard plastic tube you insert up the air
line from inside the keg, the bag is fed through the plastic tube and then
inverted over the threads of the keg. Then a mini dip-tube (same head size,
diameter to fit inside pastic tube)is inserted into the bag and fits over the
thread in order to match the thickness the of original dip tube. You then put
the pin or Ball fitting back on the keg. You need the mini dip tube because many
of the ball and pin lock fittings rely on compression fittings to make the
poppet spring work.  You then have a closed system that you only need to add an
extra air Pin/Ball fitting to too operate the system. Or I suppose you could
remove the poppet all-together. But that is just asking for problems imho....
this would be great for tailgaiting and such. They could even be re-used.  For
those that are Oxygen paranoid, when you get home you could purge the bag by
connecting the CO2 you the liquid line, this would keep the bag empty and the
rest of the beer in the keg carbonated properly.  Interesting Idea eh. In fact
upon reflection you dont need the replacement dip tubes If you can feed the bag
up and invert it properly you could just use one of the short style coke ones,
where they are wider than they are long.  Jack, I'll even give you permission to
call it the Phil-Bladder. he he he (Just kidding Mr. Listerman) you or Lynn
O'Conner or anyone else is more than welcome to manufacture this Idea... And if
the party pig people are out there reading this, I want to know when were going
to see 32" pig bags??????

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:15:11 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: low carb dieting

I don't know why I feel sucked into this debate, but I do.

One data point to ponder.  I went on the Atkins diet in
conjunction with my yearly abstinence from booze during Lent
(40 days long, for those of alternate faiths).  I dropped an
extraordinary amount of weight (15lbs) and kept much of it
off even after resuming a normal, healthy diet.  However, as
soon as I resumed my truly normal, unhealthy diet it all
came back with a vengence.  That is, however, to be
expected.  Not drinking certainly helped, but I usually only
have a beer a day so I don't think that had much of an
effect.

One other note that runs contrary to what others have
posted.  The Atkins book states that you don't need to
exercise on this diet.  Now, any diet that tells you
exercise is not necessary should be viewed with extreme
skepticism.  But I found out why--the diet leaves you with
absolutely no energy for a serious workout.  I play
competitive basketball regularly (it is Chapel Hill, after
all) and discovered that the Atkins diet left me
light-headed and lethargic after only 10 minutes of serious
play.  Normally I play for about 90 minutes with no
ill-effects.  I was totally worthless and felt like crap
after only 15 minutes.  Even my sorry leaping ability was
compromised, which, if you've seen me jump, is amazing in
and of itself.  :-)  When I resumed a normal diet I quickly
had the energy to sustain serious competition again.  It's
the main reason I left Atkins dieting for good, although I
think it's useful for a week at a crack to shed a few
ill-placed pounds.  If you hate to exercise or just don't,
it may be more your speed.  Oh, one other thing.  This diet
makes you STINK.  Horrible breath, horrible BO, and the
smell of excess nitrogen exiting your body is none to
pleasant either.  Reason #2 to exit.

Eat well and exercise will cure all woes.

If I could only find a diet that would add 20" to my
vertical leap, I'd be in heaven.

Cheerios...no, wait...Atkins would say "Albumin!"
Marc

P.S.  To keep this post on proper topic, I'd just like to
say that I really like beer!


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:08:59 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Lunacy

Dave Burley writes:

>In addition to Odd and Even numbered days
>providing a good excuse to brew,
>December 22, 1999 will be the first full moon
>to occur on a Winter Solstice in 133 years
>and will be the only one in the next 100 years
>or so. 

I don't know what planet Mr. Burley resides on, but here on earth, the 
winter solstice will occur on December 21 and the full moon will be on 
December 23.  At least that's what my calendar shows.  Of course Dave is 
probably using some sort of calendar that only shows odd days.   Also, 
considering that the winter solstice occurs on or around December 22 each 
year and a lunar month is about 28 days long, you would expect to see the 
this event to happen about once every 28 years or so.  BFD!

Dave, are you just making this crap up (odd days, bazaar diet theories, 
moon rituals following a pagan calendar) because you are bored?  Give it a 
break already.



Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"

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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:07:13 -0500
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS

> >Nature of the RIMS. With a RIMS, you don't know whether you have
> >homogeneous mash temperature (unless you use a mixer). My SHMS allows
> >complete control over the mash temp with no question what the the mash
> >temp is and also the temperature boosts are quick and precise.
> 
> With any system you don't know until you check. There seems to be a lot of
> "This system is best" kinda thing going on in the RIMS thread. There are,
> as the saying goes, many ways to skin the cat. And so many factors, can you
> be *sure* that one way is better then others? I know enough about beer to
> know that there is a hell of a lot more to know. All I can say about my
> RIMS is that after much tinkering (which I enjoy) it makes fabulous beer
> that I can reproduce easily.  It has strong points and weak points, but it
> is reliable. I think the same could be said for any well constructed mash
> system.

I wasn't trying to say that my system "is best", although my choice of
systems should give a clue which one I prefer. Just trying to point out
what I think is a positive characteristic of the SHMS (mixer combined
with a heat exchanger in the mash tun) and thought I'd point out an
alternative mashing system considering the overwelming popularity of
RIMS. 
 And yes, if anyone thinks they have a good system or think they have
the "best system" then, by all means, lets hear it!

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:14:12 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: hop tea pH/FWH IBUs/High Gravity

George DePiro writes ...

>When making hop tea, you can lower the pH of the mixture to minimize
>isomerization  of the hop alpha acids.  Isomerization occurs much more
>efficiently at higher pH, [...] (I wouldn't bother; I would just
>not boil the tea for too long).  Lower pH may also reduce tannin
extraction.

I think you missed the point of pH adjustment George.   A lower pH (say 5.5
rather than 7.5) for the hop tea boil is needed to prevent coarse flavors
that arise from boiling hops at the higher pH.  [M&BS pp 490] "It is known
that increasing the pH of beer produces a coarser bitter flavor ...".  My
limited experience is that 'tap water' hop teas give a very coarse flavor
and bittering - worthy of the drain.  Perhaps this is because at pH values
above 6.0 the beta acids (undesirable) solubility increases by 10X per
1.0pH - and these also isomerize and form compounds in the boil.
- -----------
As for the IBUs calculation of a FWH.  It has long been speculated that more
IBUs can be lost if the hops are added before the break forms.  Break
material does contain considerable hops resins.  Whether this has a
significant impact on FWH IBU contributions I have no opinion, but would
like to know.

Dave Burley writes --
>The smoother
>taste of FWH beers, even at a higher IBU could
>be due to the loss of these tannins which may
>not react with other LMW albuminous proteins

There are very good reasons to believe that the oxidized gallotannins of the
hops have a higher affinity toward forming protein/tannin bonds (break
material) than do the oxidized sweet wort phenolics.  That FWH is the flavor
impact of removing more of the hops polyphenolics rather than those from the
grist is an interesting idea.

If this was the effect of FHW then we might expect that adding PVPP to a
beer would have a similar effect  as FWHing.  And also that FWH would have
less effect in a decocted wort !

- -----------
Bob Devine asks about high gravity brewing ...

>Does anyone of a comparison study that shows the effect of
>high gravity fermentation compared to constant gravity?
>
>In my home brewing I find that higher gravity will have
>increased ester production but lower hop efficiency.

HG brewing is well known to decrease head, tho' the reasons aren't simple.
Hops IBU extraction is reduced in an HG boil. As you suggest the major
impact is on yeast performance.

 Ludwig Narziss in a Brauwelt article considers HG brewing and makes a list
of differences.  The major ones are increased levels of acetaldehyde, SO2
and 2-acetolactate.  LN. finds higher ester levels in the HG beer - but once
diluted to the same gravity the levels are similar.  Slight increase in
fusels too.  The suggestion is for a good aeration/oxygenation program, to
use a "high performance" yeast and to lower the wort pH to 4.9 to 5.0 before
pitching.  There are many positive results of the acidification.   Narziss
defines 14.5P to 16P (1.058 - 1.064SG) as HIGH GRAVITY.  This appears to
correspond with other high gravity commercial brewing.

 -S



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:24:53 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: re: RE: RIMS

In HBD #3191 rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) asks:

"This has me really wondering, how many of you RIMS'ers really know what the
temperature of  your mash is at.  Most seem to use a sensor at the outflow
point of the heat exchanger.  But, this is a long way from sensing the mash
temperature.  How many sense the mash exit temperature?... All the PID's in 
the world cannot keep the mash within 1 degree F if the sensing is at the 
exchanger outlet."

I would disagree with Ron's assertion that you have to get your controller 
feedback from the heater supply flow and actually have found that this causes 
more inconsistency of temperature.

When I first built my ERIMS (Electric Recirculating Infusion Mash System) I 
had the thermistor temperature sensor in the wort flow at the mashtun outlet, 
i.e. before the heater chamber.  This caused some serious  problems with 
control of the temperature.  I determined it was due primarily to this time 
lag for the heat to transition through the bed and hence to the sensor.  This 
was causing a slow temperature oscillation where the wort could be overheated 
and even the rest temperatures were never as stable as I would have liked.

What we are trying to do is contol the mash enzymes activity via temperature 
manipulation.  Considering that the majority of the enzymes are in the liquid 
part of the mash, it seems most important to control the temperature of that 
fraction.  Eventually, temperature equilibrium of the entire mash will be 
achieved if the appropriate temperture wort is continually pumped through the 
grain bed.

To correct my problem I built a thermistor probe which is installed directly 
in the wort return flow manifold *after* the heater.  In this configuration, 
as the temperature of the heater supply flow changes the controller uses more 
or less power to maintain a steady return flow temp. The heater controller 
now effectively controls the temperature of the wort return temp within a few 
tenths of a degree F.

As I mash, I put my digital thermometer probe into the bed itself, so what I 
am monitoring is the mash temp.  It's just the heater control that uses the 
thermistor feedback.

  There is still a certain amount of delay for any increase in temperature 
(temperture ramps) to fully transit through the grain bed, but I think this 
is just a fact of life and not to be worried about.  The key thing is that 
the mash profile is repeatable and consistent.  I think the best solution 
would be to create a dual sensor circuit that would control the wort exit 
temperature *and* shutdown the heater when the mash itself reaches optimum 
temp.  

One thing that makes a difference here is the grain bed depth.  IMO, 
shallower grain beds are better for RIMS in all regards.  The tough thing is 
maintaining a shallow grain bed when mashing ~20 lbs or more for 10+ gallon 
batches.  Even my 45 Qt. rectangular cooler w/ manifold mashtun gets pretty 
full and the bed depth is ~10 inches.  

Okay, one final question.  Anyone that made it this far into my post must be 
interested in this whole RIMS thing.  I mentioned it in a previous post but 
nobody bit on it.  Why is it exactly that people think it is so critical to 
change the mash temps rapidly?  Have any definitive tests been done that 
support these theories?
  
Fred Wills


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:41:33 -0800
From: "jim williams" <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: cask breather for corny??

all this talk about cask ale in  a corny got me thinking (again) about the
possibility of a breather for a home set up. Does one exist? Can one be
rigged? What about Jack Schmidling, Dan Listerman and all you other homebrew
genius gadget riggers? Any ideas? If someone can design, build and sell a
cheap one, I'm sure interest in cask ale in this country's homebreweries
would go through the roof!!! Come on, guys, get to the drawing tables!!

jim



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:59:51 -0500
From: "Charles E. Mryglot" <cmryglot at progress.com>
Subject: DoppleBock, sparging and attenuation

I was re-reading Richman's book on Bock and a couple of points came to mind:

1. Attenuation/Aeration. Somewhere in the section on fermentation there is a
passing remark that these beers are well aerated prior to pitching...but no
mention of process/procedure or to what degree.   I had a bottle of Salvator
and measured it's gravity at about 1.016.  I read that the starting gravity
is about 1.075.   This would lead to an apparent attenuation of about 79%.
None of the available lager yeasts claim attenuations this high.   Is
aeration alone the factor in achieving such high attenuation?


2. Sparging. The sparging technique described in the book is different than
what I believe most of us use.   Here he describes first doing a recycle on
the mash and draining the tun. Then adding 45%(I might have this % wrong) of
the sparge water... recycle and drain, add 30% sparge... recycle and drain
and add the remainder and recycle and drain.  (Reminds me of the technique
for making a small beer from the 2nd runnings).   He points out that you get
a more efficient extraction ...but does not quantify.   Does any one else
use this technique?   any info on improved extraction?

Regards
ChuckM


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:51:57 -0600
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE:calories ain't caloriesq

As far as I know...ONLY muscle burns fat...nothing else....fat doesn't burn
itself.....
:-)

Kelly

- ---------------------------------
You said:

Pound for pound, muscle

burns three times the calories as the same
weight of fat. Higher % muscle = higher
metabolism rate  Weight training is important.
Just walking or running is not so important to

muscle building, although it does not hurt
to have a healthy cardio-vascular system.




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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:02:56 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Hugh Baird going going gone?

From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>

>My local homebrew shop is buying up sacks of Hugh Baird malt because, the
>owner tells me, they are pulling out of North America and will no longer be
>available in the US or Canada.

Could be, last time I went to purchase some British malt, I noticed the
grain sack said American malt!  I questioned the store owner and she said
"Oh yeah, our supplier sent us this by mistake, but we tried it out and it
is very good - just like British malt".  So if you are prone to jumping to
wild conclusions, you could jump on this one.  It may be the clue that your
shop owner knows of what he speaks.

P.S. I went ahead and brewed with it, sitll in fermenter, but mashed and
converted in about 40 minutes at 149F in my HERMS.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:52:56 -0600
From: Midwest Brewer <mgeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: Calories, Carbs, Beer, Etc.

I've been reading the latest threads on carbohydrates, calories, etc.
and weight gain.  I think the one thing that is missing here is
metabolism.  I can't recall the source (UNQUALIFIED STATEMENT ALERT!!!)
but I do remember reading that alcohol also inhibits the metabolism rate
of the body, which is a key player in how much of your caloric intake
your body can burn.  I've seen people that drink regularly that don't
pack on the pounds and on the other scale, people who are moderation
drinkers who stretch their size 36 waist pants to the limit (I'm one of
those).

As for those low / no carbohydrate diets...personally it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to me.  Your body needs carbs to survive - any
nutritionist worth their salt should be able to tell you that.  Just
allowing yourself the fat laden burger but not the bun doesn't make much
sense at all.  A lower fat well balanced food program and moderate
exercise diet is likely to yield better results than one that is just
low in carbohydrates.  I have a nephew who is a classic example of this
 - he works out (but not obsessively), eats in moderation and watches
what he eats.  He's in great shape.

A final observation:  Perhaps the HBD server fund could be subsidized a
bit by all the FREE ADVERTISING that has been going on here lately.  You
people know who you are...

MWB


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:49:05 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RIMS

Fred Wills comments:

> would disagree with Ron's assertion that you have to get your controller 
>feedback from the heater supply flow and actually have found that this
causes 
>more inconsistency of temperature.
 ...snip...
>I determined it was due primarily to this time 
>lag for the heat to transition through the bed and hence to the sensor.
This 
>was causing a slow temperature oscillation where the wort could be
overheated 
>and even the rest temperatures were never as stable as I would have liked.

This time lag is precisely the subject we are concerned with.  You can view
the time lag several ways, one, as a time lag, but another way to view it
would be a temperature differential.  I am suggesting that by using the
liquor input temperature to control your mash temperature boosting may be
misleading you into thinking you are at a certain temp for X minutes, and in
reality, you are way off the mark.

 ...snip...
>Eventually, temperature equilibrium of the entire mash will be 
>achieved if the appropriate temperture wort is continually pumped through
the 
>grain bed.

Yes, but eventually would not be my first choice!

>To correct my problem I built a thermistor probe which is installed
directly 
>in the wort return flow manifold *after* the heater.  In this
configuration, 
>as the temperature of the heater supply flow changes the controller uses
more 
>or less power to maintain a steady return flow temp. The heater controller 
>now effectively controls the temperature of the wort return temp within a
few 
>tenths of a degree F.

You have a steady return flow temp, what I would like is a more even and
known mash temp.

 ...snip...
>There is still a certain amount of delay for any increase in temperature 
>(temperture ramps) to fully transit through the grain bed, but I think this

>is just a fact of life and not to be worried about.

Oh, here is where I have gone astray, I musta been worried!  :>)

>The key thing is that 
>the mash profile is repeatable and consistent.  I think the best solution 
>would be to create a dual sensor circuit that would control the wort exit 
>temperature *and* shutdown the heater when the mash itself reaches optimum 
>temp.  

So we can agree sometimes.  Fortunately for me, because I do not want to
come off seeming like an argumentative malcontent.

>One thing that makes a difference here is the grain bed depth.  IMO, 
>shallower grain beds are better for RIMS in all regards.

I agree, and here is where I may someday just have to give up my insulated
Igloo.  The diameter is much smaller than it would be with a half barrel
keg, and so is the mash screen.  I wonder if going to a keg, and loosing the
insulating aspect of the Igloo would be a good trade off.  I think ample
wort flow is the ultimate objective.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:04:17 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: NA beer and calories

Ron LaBorde wrote:

>I for one do think that Dave's message on beer and dietary concepts, to use
>an old hackneyed phrase, 'hit the nail on the head'.

Seems more like "Hit his head on a nail!"


>Answer this: If Ethanol has most of the calories, why does non-alcoholic
>beer still have about the same calories as regular?

Wow, good question! Are they really the same? There is quite a range of
caloric value to beer. Where do most NA beers clock in?

A typical pint of beer has from 10 - 20 grams of ethanol in it. According to
Dave Burley, beer has 5 grams of carbos and regular beer about 12 grams
which sounds reasonable (though at this point I'm about ready to consider
/anything/ Dave says suspect until independently verified!!) At any rate, if
these figures are correct then one can expect there is at least as much
ethanol as carbohydrate in a beer (on a per weight basis) and since ethanol
has a higher caloric content than does carbohydrate (also on a per weight
basis) ethanol will usually comprise >50% of the total calories derived from
beer consumption.

I don't know the answer to your NA beer question. Perhaps there are more
carbohydrates in NA beer and this makes up for the "missing" calories
normally derived from ethanol?

Since fat in beer is negligible the only real sources of calories are coming
from carbohydrates and ethanol. The total calories will be utilizable
calories from carbohydrate + utilizable calories from ethanol.Obviously, you
can keep the same total caloric content by increasing one of the sources
while the other decreases.

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD





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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:41:40 -0500
From: "Vinbrew Supply" <devans at greenapple.com>
Subject: Hugh Baird going?

Only thing I have heard was that Hugh Baird is now owned by Moray
Firth(actually they merged) who owns Beeston. Talking with the lady from
consolidated beverage(the distributor of Beeston)she said Baird is having
problems with the supplier of the Hugh Baird Malt. (or something to that
effect)I told her of the "rumor" of Baird being pulled out of the states and
she more or less said Yup! Especially in California. (she also said her
information is from hearsay no factual proof has been presented to her)
Perhaps they are going to be pushing the Beeston.  A rather fine grain in
itself. Now she did say that most people have been very pleased with the
Beeston line of Crystal as a subsitute for Hugh Bairds. If you have never
tried the Beeston line, I encourage you too.  It is top notch.

The person who would really know somthing would be Mid America Brewing in
Min.  As they distribute Hugh Baird

Doug
Vinbrew Supply
1-800-905-9059


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:13:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <hogenmiller at yahoo.com>
Subject: Irish Red Recipe Wanted

Does anyone have a All Grain Irish Red or John Courage
Amber Clone?  A review of the Cats Meow and others
reveals little.  I suspect this is because it is not
an AHA recognized style.  Private E-mail is fine.
 
Mark Hogenmiller
Merrimack Valley Brewer in Exile
Patuxent River, MD
hogenmiller at yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:15:11 +1000
From: smorgan at expressdata.com.au
Subject: re coopers sparkling ale



afternoon

for the coopers speakling ale use the franklins malt...schooner is for largers.

the white labs yeast for the job i have seen at ESB brewing in randwick nsw,
www.esb.net.au.

is the criticism at using POR hops for flavouring directed at the major
Australian brewers??

I dare you to try and make a copy of the coopers strongt ale....let alone try
and buy it!

scotty

smorgan at expressdata.com.au




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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:25:41 -0500
From: "gdepiro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: cask ale in general and in cornies

Hi all,

I serve cask beers every weekend at the brewpub.  The first time we did
this, we didn't know how it would sell, so I just made up 10 gallons in a
couple of cornies.  I didn't bother with CO2 at all (CAMRA would be
pleased).  I simply put a gas out fitting on the gas side, with a piece of
cotton stuck into the hose barb (we had a fruit fly problem when we first
opened; I didn't want them to have access to the beer!).  The liquid end was
hooked up to the handpump and voila, cask beer!

I have found (by accidental experimentation) that a nearly empty cask of
beer will age quite nicely, even with no blanket CO2, if it is kept cold
when not being served.  To my great surprise, I have found that the hoppier
beers taste "rounder" after being aged 1 week at 42F in the presence of air
(soft spile in firkin). The downside is that the beer is also almost
completely flat, but a sparkler on the handpump can be used to muscle a head
out of it.

The moral of this story is that if you think you'll finish the beer in a
week or so, just try keeping it cold between sessions and don't bother with
CO2.  You may like how the beer ages.  Of course, the beer will be too cold
for the first hour or so, which may be annoying.

As for dry hopping cask beers:  I usually use pellets, which I put in a
homebrew-size hop bag.  None of the hop material escapes into the beer, but
utilization of the hops is less and getting the bags out of the firkins is a
real pain in the butt.  You could do the same thing in a corny keg and be
able to easily retrieve the hop bag.

I have used homegrown, whole , fresh hops in a couple of firkins.  These
need not be put in a bag because the firkin tap has small holes that will
prevent them from getting into the customer's glass.  The cones remained
remarkably intact, anyway (I guess because I didn't dry them first).  They
were kind of a pain to get out of the firkin, too.

You could use whole hops in a corny keg and simply tie a hop bag around the
bottom of the liquid out tube (which would be the CO2 in tube if you are
dispensing from the corny by gravity).

Have fun!

George de Piro
C.H.Evans Brewing Company at the Albany Pump Station
(518) 447-9000

Malted Barley Appreciation Society Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:11:36 -0600
From: bergbrew at juno.com
Subject: RE: Hugh Baird going going gone?

I too, heard the rumor and immediately called Great Western (the US
Distributor) to get the 411.  Here's the scoop:

Hugh Baird *is* oversold, however, they are going to continue to supply
the US and are going to ship unmalted two-row to GW for Crystal malt
production.  Not much different from when they were producing it in
Belgium.  The process will be overseen by Hugh Baird maltsters.  So, fear
not, Hugh Baird will still be around.


David Berg  

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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:28:27 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: RIMS

	Fred asks:

	Okay, one final question.  Anyone that made it this far into my post
must be 
	interested in this whole RIMS thing.  I mentioned it in a previous
post but 
	nobody bit on it.  Why is it exactly that people think it is so
critical to 
	change the mash temps rapidly?  Have any definitive tests been done
that 
      support these theories?

Good question, and one that could probably have many answers, but I will
take a stab at it.

My first guess is that it would be more consistent, that is, if someone
publishes a recipe for a certain temp profile, it would be best if it could
be reproduced by others with the same timing.  Of course, how can one
accomplish this temp profile to begin with.  Well, large breweries,
classical breweries, and infusion techniques have established temp profiles,
and when we try to imitate or reproduce some of these beers, we would like
to be able to better control the temp profile in such a way as to let us
achieve the desired results.  It may be that some other techniques or
different recipe could produce a good imitation of a classic beer, but as a
starting point, I would think we want to keep our options and flexibility
open.

Second, if we want to be at a certain  x temp for x minutes, then ramp up to
x2 temp and hold for x2 minutes, then we must think of a slow ramp as
pollution, noise, and  unwanted side effects.  If it takes 15 minutes to get
to x2, then how long are we at x?

Third, any delay ramping up adds time to our brew length, although immensely
enjoyable to myself, a bit less to others perhaps, (my wife, the lawn, the
painting projects, the new brewing rig additions,,,).  So any reduction in
brew length allows more brews/lifetime.  If you ramp up to mashout, this is
a second delay that must be added to the total waste.

In reality, I really think it does not matter much, I have used and abused
many recipes, and have never made a beer I did not like, just one, when I
added 750 ml of anise liquor to a wheat beer.  I got my liquorice taste
alright, but I found out I was not as fond of liquorice as I had previously
imagined.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:08:45 -0500
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: rims and running


Ronald La Borde asked:

>This has me really wondering, how many of you RIMS'ers really know what the
>temperature of  your mash is at.  Most seem to use a sensor at the outflow
>point of the heat exchanger.  But, this is a long way from sensing the mash
>temperature.  How many sense the mash exit temperature?

For me I thought about using multiple temp probes.  I set my system up and
put foam insulation on all the pipe and tubing.  I also insulated the mash
tun (stainless pot) and use a one inch piece of polystyrene on the lid.  I
then checked the mash temp compared to the reading on the PID and they were
in sync.  I have kept my pipe runs short and I preheat my water to strike
temp prior to adding the grain.  I really have no problems with temp lag,
but I also only do five gallon batches.

I think reverse rims could work but I'm not an engineer and just getting a
RIMS setup and working smoothly was enough of a time consumer. And besides
it works great.  I never get compacted beds as long as I am careful about
opening and closing valves in a smooth fashion.  But I must say I still
love my JS Easymasher for it's pure simplicity and bombproofness.
  
I love how Dave B. skirts the running/carb/kenyan issue.  As a scientist
and runner who has run his fair share fo 15k, half and marathons over the
years, and also read a great deal of excercise physiology journal articles,
I must say I find what he said unsupported by anything I have ever read or
experienced (n=1).  But then again I assume Dave is a marathoner who has
managed to run PRs every year. :-)

> Low carb diets stress a high protein intake
> so that you will be able to build muscle 
> 
> during the diet and end up with a higher
> metabolism rate per body pound at the
> you finish this diet

Excess protein leads to it being dumped into the urine if you are not
utilizing it all

> Exercise during dieting is not to burn extra
> calories as is so often quoted, but to build
> muscle

Damn, you mean I was supposed to get big muscles running 50+ miles a week.
:-)
And have you  done the calculations to see how many calories you burn when
you run vs weight training?  And who has a higher sedontary metabolism?
I'll except journal references.  And I know weihg training is important to
maintain muscle mass as we age and can improve running performance.  But
marathon runnners don't want a Michael Johnson build.


Oh and so this has a beer mention, I'll bring up Hashers, the "Drinking
Club with a Running Problem" 
Ducking and running

Jim



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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:23:22 EST
From: "Gary Barbatelli" <garybarbatelli at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Hugh Baird going, going, gone

The Brewer's Outlet in West Palm Beach is a distributor of Pauls malts from 
the UK. Today the owner commented that Pauls was pulling out of the US 
market because they could sell their entire production in Europe. Maybe 
there's something to it. The Briess 2-row Pale Ale malt is okay though. 
Cheers

______________________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:02:59 EST
From: JohnT6020 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Evil of carbs

Flossmoor IL  99-12-13  at  1955 CST

The fattening power of any food [drink] is the calories.  Normal beer has 
only a few carbohydrates; its calories come from the EtOH.

Near beer may have a significant load of calories from carbohydrates.

Neither fat not protein contribute any significant calories to beer.



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---