---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Scaling Up - The Next Step? ("Steven J. Owens")
  Sensing Point for controlling a rims... (William Macher)
  Re: sensor placement (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  What kind of fool am I?/RIMS ("Guy and Norine Gregory")
  Reverse Flow RIMS ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Eggsperiments (Eric.Fouch)
  Improving Head Retention - Use Wheat Malt or Flaked Barley? ("Carl Wilson")
  Calories/PID (AJ)
  reverse flow RIMS reply ("Czerpak, Pete")
  re: cask breathers (Paul Kensler)
  Homebrew shops (Jared Froedtert)
  non-anonymity (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Cask ale from a corny (Jeff Renner)
  type of brewer and NYC trip ("Czerpak, Pete")
  cask breather for corny?? ("Nigel Porter")
  Re: RIMS (Jonathan Peakall)
  Re: cask ale (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: Lunacy ("Scott Moore")
  RE: PID for RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Fat From Beer (Brad Miller)
  installing valve in aluminum kettle (patrick finerty)
  Sparging, exercise, Full Moon, NA beer (Dave Burley)
  Baking Soda (AJ)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:16:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Scaling Up - The Next Step?

Folks,

     As my home renovations near completion (and so does the
millenium) I turn my thoughts once again to brewing, and, given my
renovating state of mind, to brewing systems.  Lots of posts about
RIMS experimentation and improvisation to the list lately.  We've just
been doing extract brewing in five-gallon batches up to this point,
but the house we recently moved into has room in the basement and a
small back porch, either of which might make a comfortable spot to put
a brew shop.

     However, I'm loathe to start spending wads of cash on equipment
(a couple hundred bucks for a burner, a couple hundred bucks for a
nice, larger pot, probably need a wort chiller at this point, should
think about going all-grain) without looking at the options.  Should I
just jump past that to something more elegant, not to mention maybe
easier to clean?

     I did a little homework surfing, but it appears most of the stuff
on web sites is for serious do-it-yourselfers (i.e. "This is how we
did it...").  Or they're really expensive systems starting at $2500 or
so.  What are my options, if I'd just like to spend about $500, to
significantly increase my batch sizes and/or (preferably and :-)
decrease the grunt labor involved (mostly cleaning comes to mind)?

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com

P.S. 

Dave Burley commented on carbohydrates, dieting, etc.  He seems to be
quoting straight out of the Atkins Diet book.  I had a couple of
fairly smart people recommend this to me, so I did some homework.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything that clearly and in detail
refuted the claims; mostly they just said "it's bad for you" and
mentioned the dangers of ketosis, etc.

Now since Atkins himself brings up the topic of ketosis and claims
that it's not a risk in this situation (basically, ketosis is a
usually symptom of Very Bad Things, but in this situation it's a
symptom of Good Things), the situation seems reduced to a series of
"Yes it is/No it's not" claims.  It would be nice to see some
qualified medical person actually refute Atkins' claims instead of
waving their hands and dismissing it.

However, the fact that pretty much 100% of everything I found on the
web by medical types (including things like the Harvard School of
Medicine's fact site) is negative about the diet led me to decide
against trying it.  Does the fact that conventional medicine uniformly
condemns it prove it's bad?  Not on your life.  But I'm not going to
bet *my* life on it.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:17:24 -0500
From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Sensing Point for controlling a rims...


Hi C.D. and all,

"C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net> comments:

>My controller senses the wort temp at both locations.  The heater is shut
>off when the exit temp from the tun is at the desired mash temp. and off if
>the temp at the heater exit is 2 degF above the desired mash temp.  No
>scorching and no detectable enzyme degradation.  If one only controls based
>on the heater exit temp, the mash will take a very long time to reach the
>desired mash temp. and will never reach if if one considers heat losses in
>the system.

Hummmmm...

But arn't you really controlling according to the exit temperature you are
sensing? If you are not constantly mixing the mash, my experinece is that
the temperature across the grain bed will decrease top-to-bottom during the
temperature boost. The higher temperature wort that is returned to the mash
tun slowly works it way down from top to bottom in my system. After the
entire liquid volume that is being recirculated is recirculated, the
top-to-bottom temperature approaches being equal, differing by a bit, but
not nearly as much as when the temperature boost began. It will gradually
come into equilibrium as recirculation continues, with target
temperature[or slightly above] wort being returned.

So, it sounds like your system will really not start to respond to
temperature increase within the mash tun until it is actually heated to
very near the desired temperature. And as the temperature is approached,
you system will be cutting back energy input gradually to keep the output
temperature of the heating chamber to slightly above target.

So, does a system like you describe, in reality, offer much more than a
system that simply measures the temperature of the wort as it exits the
heating chamber? I doubt if it does. Almost by difinition, the wort coming
into the heating chamber will be cooler than target, until target is
reached, if the grain bed is not being mixed by some method. And once
target temperature is reached, there is very little time lag between the
time the temperature is sensed by the input sensor and the output sensor,
unless the heating chamber is really large in volume.

I repeat for the sake of emphasis:

>If one only controls based on the heater exit temp, the mash will take a
very long time to >reach the desired mash temp. and will never reach if if
one considers heat losses in
>the system.

I must be missing something...but, why would this be so? In my manually
controlled, steam-injected rims, I watch the temperature going into the
injection chamber, but only as an indication of what is happening, ie, when
I am finally approaching target. I adjust heat input according to the exit
temperature of the heating chamber. I do not want to over heat the mash.
Regardless of the control system used, if any system limits the return
temperature to a given maximum, how can one have an advantage over the
other and perform better?

It is my best guess[as well as my personal experience] that, as others have
said recently, flow rate is the key to fast temperature boosts. And sensing
temperature of the wort at the exit of the heating chamber is key to
preventing scorching of the wort in an electrical-heating-element system.

I guess what I am saying is that I cannot see how shutting off the heat
input once target temperature is reached really makes any difference in how
fast that temperature is reached. So what advantage does sensing the
temperature of the wort entering the heating chamber really have?

C.D....Could you clarify? I am sure if I missed the point other did as well...

Bill

Bill Macher   Pittsburgh, PA   USA












Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:22:46 -0600
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: sensor placement

I have my thermocouple for the temp control  PID under the mash tun
false bottom.  In addition I have a two bladed stainless mixer which
operates at anywhere from 1-9 RPM.  The lower blade is 1 inch off the
false bottom and the second is 8 inches up from there.  The temp control
PID has been calibrated to handle the top to bottom temp ranges for this
mash tun and simply turns off the pump which recirculates hot water from
the HLt on one side of the heat exchanger.  An 18 inch probe on an Omega
digital thermometer is used to check that the proper temp gradient is in
evidence from time to time.

Cheers, Elder Rat


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:33:10 -0800
From: "Guy and Norine Gregory" <guyg at icehouse.net>
Subject: What kind of fool am I?/RIMS

Colleagues:

I guess I am a chronic simple brewer.  About once a month to six weeks, I
get out my big canner, propane jet burner, and sparge bucket and cook up a
batch of dandy beer.  I tried to go to a keg boiler, and just didn't like to
clean it.  It's now for sale.  I was an acute brewer, but I took two single
malt scotches and it went away.

The latest thread regarding RIMS is pretty cool.  Has anyone revisited the
"well-like" RIMS discussed on the brewery?  Hydraulically, it seems to me to
be superior to falsebottom/grant style ideas...especially concerning the
Reverse Rims idea.  It also seems well adapted to unitization, for easy
cleaning and maintenance.

For an idea about hydraulic properties of grain, don't forget John Palmer's
page...his experiments illustrate ant tabulate some of the values of
discharge of wort per unit area of grain you'll need to use in your design.

Cheers

Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:16:40 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net>
Subject: Reverse Flow RIMS

Hi Lee,

To rid myself of endless mash tun stirring, I also tried reverse flow.  I
bottom of  the mash tun.  I used a valve array to switch the direction of
flow.  This setup worked, but replaced constant stirring with constant valve
switching.

At the insistence of a brewing associate, I reluctantly trashed the Rodney
Morris like mash tun and adapted the associates motorized stirring design to
my system.   A schematic of the mash tun tells all better than words.  I can
send schematic or pictures to interested home brewers and answer
questions about the construction.

Use of this adapted system requires a departure from traditional picnic
cooler mash protocols.  I try for 8 gallons of wort in the fermenter.  I
start with approximately 25 pounds of malt and a hand  mixed infusion to 95
degrees.  Then a stirred  infusion to 133 degrees to accommodate modern
malt.  The subsequent ramps and rests are specific to the brew and use only
RIMS heat and stirring.  The stirring results in less than a 2 degree
variance through out the mash.

After mashout is achieved, I use a pseudo sparge.

The pseudo sparge means that I allow the liquor to run off until it's as
clear as can be and return the non-clear to the top of the tun (manual).
When the mash cake cracks, I add 180 degree sparge water, mix and hold for
15 minutes.  The runoff is repeated and a third mix of sparge water is
added.  This approach gives me minimal attention to the system, gets the job
done with better than average extraction, and produces (by my own standard)
drinkable brews.  I don't make blond malt pop, so I'm willing to boil off
excess water to achieve a high desirable gravity.

The stirring motor is still available from H&R Co. 800 848 8001.  The
Reversible Super Hi Torque motor # TM96MTR2940 lists for $69.95.  It has
2500 ounce/inch torque at 3.3 RPM.

                                        Joy"T"Brew






Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:07:00 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Eggsperiments

The latest on the hard boiled egg front:

I performed the Fred Kingston add egz to the boil, boil 10 minutes, crash cool
and peel.  Peeling pleasure rated from about 6 to about 8 (on the 1-10 scale,
ten being the shell spontaneously dissappearing).
Then I did the dehydrator trick, as per our own Patriarch of Free Enterprise,
Jack Schmidling.  I "cooked" the little chicken spores in the dehydrator for
20 hours, then proceeded with the Kingston Co. boiling process.  The Peeling
Pleasure rating was from 8 to 9.5:  A couple of the eggshells came of in two
large pieces.
A couple of unsettling observations however:
1)  The yolks of the dehydrated eggs all migrated to one side of the egg,
presumably the bottom?  All the other eggs, the yolks remained right near the
center.

2)  The whites looked a bit translucent rather than opaque white.  They did
whiten up during the pickling process.

3)  Didn't like the idea of having the eggs warm (around 100F) for that long.

OK, that was a few observations, not just a couple.

The next attempt will be buying the eggs two weeks in advance and making
another dozen pickled eggs.  The down side to all this is (urp!) is eating the
experiments.  Sure, I feel stuffy, but it's all in the name of science.
Kinda.

So far, my favoritest pickle juice involves using 1 Tbs of Italian (or if your
from Indiana, EYE-talian) spices, 1 Tbs Lawrey's Season salt boiled in 1.5
cups cider vinegar and 0.5 cups water, poured over 12 peeled eggs in a mason
jar.

Don't hate me 'cause I'm beautiful.  There are plenty other reasons.

Eric Fouch
Deer Management Co-operator
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 02:20:50 -0600
From: "Carl Wilson" <carlw at sonetcom.com>
Subject: Improving Head Retention - Use Wheat Malt or Flaked Barley?

I recall reading that to improve the head retention of your brew, that you
should add either some wheat malt or flaked barley.  Is one preferable over
the other?  How much should you use?


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:55:11 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Calories/PID

With all the discussion of calories in beer I thought you all might be
interested in the way in which calories are calculated for beer. It's
simply

kcal/100grams beer = 6.9A + 4(B-C)

where A is the % alcohol by weight (0.79ABV), B is the real extract (%
by weight i.e. degrees P of the dealcoholized beer made back up to the
same volume as the sample) and C is the ash expressed as a percent by
weight (this is usually small enough that it can be ignored).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * *

Theoretically a PID controller can work with temperature readings made
at various places in the system as long as the system is properly
modeled by the controller's "tuning" parameters. Naturally, it makes
everything simpler if the spot at which it is desired to maintain
temperature is the spot at which or ner whch the temperature sensor is
placed. Though I know very little about RIMS it seem sensible that the
RTD go either in the middle of the grain bed or at the outflow from the
tun. The reading at the outflow point will doubtless be slightly
different from a reading at the center of the grain bed. If this amounts
to more than a fraction of a degree the controller can be offset by that
amount i.e. if the outlet is a degree cooler than the center, one can,
in some controllers, dial in a degree offset or, more simply, set the
controller a degree higher than the desired temperature.

A couple of people commented on observed delay, rates of heat loss,
rates of heat gain and so on. The manual operator must be aware of these
things and so must the controller. That is the function of the
aforementioned "tuning". If not properly tuned, the controller will
undershoot or overshoot just as an operator who doesn't know about,
e.g., the delay factor for his equipment will. Tuning can be a little
tricky - sometimes performance is enhanced with diferent "tunesets" for
different parts of the process. Fancy controllers can be programmed to
ramp (at a desired rate), soak, change tunesets etc. No, they are not
necessary and are expensive but for me at least the controller is a real
blessing. The decoction portions of my brewday uesd to be 3 hours of
intense labor followed by two hours of intense labor. Now I sit back
with the newspaper and watch the display.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:59:20 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: reverse flow RIMS reply

Brian Lee comments on the performance of a reverse flow RIMS in HBD 3193.
He mentions that the circulating grain bed appears to be well-mixed atleast
until particles plug his outflow strainer.

Okay, these reverse flow RIMS are known as fluidized beds or fluidized bed
reactors in the chemical/petroleum industry (some are called cat or
catalytic crackers).  They are used to control temperature and reactions for
certain types of industrial reactions as well as to prevent catalyst
deactivation. They are most important in refining gasoline and converting
high molecular weight hydrocarbons into useful ones needed for gasoline,
fuel oil, and feedstocks.

I have read an article done by Guinness where they impregnated yeast on
beads, fluidized them in wort, and used it for a continuous type
fermentation process.

Anyways, these reactors (or our mash kettles) must be designed so as to
carryover little solid material (ie. grain, husks, or grain dust) while
maintaining flowrates through the external heat exchanger.  The chamber or
the pump must be designed so that their is sufficient velocity to lift and
fluidize the particles while still have enough room in the mash vessel for
the smaller particles to disengage from the upward flowing liquid and begin
to settle again (the velocity is based on a average particle size, particle
distribution, and particle density that needs to be measured).  

That said the mash vessel will have to be pretty tall, yet fairly skinny
diameter-wise.  The liquor inflow would have to be distributed pretty evenly
across the bed as well (Plate with many small holes would be okay as would
be a sintered plate).  the small bubbles of liquid that passes through the
holes are better than larger bubbles for mass/heat transfer modes.

I would also mount a screen near the vessel top across the full diameter of
the kettle to help segregate the grain fines from the top few inches of
clear liquor so that you can get a clear liquor drain off from above the
screen.

I think these systems have to be run with more liquor than normally used in
a normal flow RIMS.  However, the advantages of the reverse flow RIMS are
excellent heat control, mixing, and mass transfer resulting in higher
efficiencies, better temperature control throughout the grain bed.

The best way to run one of these is to be adjust the inflow to the mash
vessel as one watches the top of the grainbed.  The bed should start to
bubble as the inflow rate is increased until it begins to churn (almost
appearing to boil).  This is the point of minimum fluidization - where the
drag forces on the particles exerted by the upward flowing fluid are
equivilent to the gravity forces pulling down on the particles.
larger/heavier particles don't "fluidize" at the same lower fluid velocity
needed for smaller/lighter particles. 

Any questions on the calculations needed to "properly" design a fluidized
bed reactor can be directed to me.  Important variables are particle
diameter, particle shape, distribution, fluid density, fluid viscosity,
particle density.

I can do a quick calculation assuming water viscosity, reasonable fluid
density based on OG, a reasonable particle size.  I do need a particle
density however (how many cups of grain equal 1 lb??)

Regards,

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY

Chemical Process Engineer by Day - Homebrewer by Night


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:36:05 -0600
From: Paul Kensler <Paul.Kensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: re: cask breathers

Jim Williams said:

"all this talk about cask ale in  a corny got me thinking (again) about the
possibility of a breather for a home set up. Does one exist? Can one be
rigged? "

The answer is yes - you can purchase genuine English cask breathers from UK
Brewing at http://www.ukbrewing.com <http://www.ukbrewing.com> .  They
import and sell all manner of British brewing supplies (including glasses,
games, etc.) but specialize in cask ale supplies (beer engines, shives,
spiles, breathers, stillage racks, etc.).  The breathers are $56.50 and can
be fit in-line using standard gas tubing.

Standard disclaimer of non-affiliation applies.  I haven't purchased
anything from them yet, but when I get around to setting up a Real Ale setup
downstairs, this is what I'll do.


FWIW, I was back in my old stomping grounds (Dallas) over the weekend and
enjoyed a nice pint of St. Arnold's Cask Ale, on handpump at the
Gingerman...  I just got the shivers thinking about it all over again...
Fortunately I've discovered Arbor Brewing in Ann Arbor that has a nice
porter and IPA on handpump!  


Paul Kensler
Lansing, MI


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:58:28 -0500
From: Jared Froedtert <froedter at msu.edu>
Subject: Homebrew shops

Just signed back up to the list after being off the digest for about 2
years.  

I've been thinking lately of opening a homebrew supply shop.  I've been
looking around the internet for info, but haven't found much info on
starting a business like this.  Then I remembered the HBD.  Are there any
homebrew shop owners, former owners, or wanna be owners out there?  If so,
I'd was wondering if you'd share your experiences with me on owning and
operating such a business, and maybe answer a few questions.  Here's a
little info about myself, homebrewing for 7 years now, have won some local
contests, Biology degree from Mich. St. Univ., re-locating to a major US
city in the next 2-3 months, plan to open business there.

Private email please.  If enough info is gathered, I will repost to the
digest.

TIA, 



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:30:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: non-anonymity

Midwest Brewer <mgeorge at bridge.com> writes

>You people know who you are...

But we don't know who your are.  Not to pick on you exclusively, a few
others fail to identify themselves, too.  So to everyone, I say (as I do
every six months or so), how about signing your posts, and while you're at
it, where you are?  This will foster community and encourage the continued
great civility we usually have on HBD.  And then, when you get to MCAB II
in St. Louis in March, you'll get to meet some of the people who
participate and put names with faces.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:53:49 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Cask ale from a corny

"Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> wrote

>I have seen Jeff Renner and Jason
>Henning try to play with hooking up an English hand pump with a CO2 bleed, it
>doesnt work all that well. It was disconnected and we drank that fabulous Mild
>all game long!! YUM!!!!

I was going to write about my experience on this subject but hadn't got
around to it, so now that Phil has brought it up, I'll finish the story.  I
brewed a low gravity mild (actually it turned out a little more like an
ordinary bitter, but no problem) for my annual TV football party
(University of Michigan vs. Penn State this year, it alternates with the
UofM vs. OSU game, whichever game is away).  Anyway, Jason had just scored
a brand new beer engine from England and offered its use.  We set it up
before kickoff, but found that if you set the CO2 pressure low enough to
keep it from pushing through the pump on its own (~1 psi?), the gas
wouldn't feed fast enough when you pulled a pint, and so air would suck in
around the poorly sealed lid (poorly sealed because of no internal
pressure).  As Phil said, we removed the hose and let air enter through the
gas in fitting, and it worked like a champ.  Great fun!

I don't know why I was worrying - we 18 guys or so not only finished the
corney but put a good dent in the Irish stout that was on CO2, too.  But I
would like to figure out a way to protect ale for weeks under an admittedly
non-CAMRA approved blanket of CO2 so I could keep it on a hand pump.  You'd
need a low pressure, high flow rate system.  Maybe some kind of meter
valve.  Any engineers want to offer help?  Winning entry will win an
invitation to next year's party.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:11:00 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: type of brewer and NYC trip

HI all:

Just wanted to post the results of my New York City Beer Quest.

Thanks to all who replied to me privately.  I did visit a few places and
truely enjoyed my drinkings.  I spent saturday running all over in search of
good beers.

I started at the waterfront Ale House for lunch around 1.  Had a chicken
wrap (spicey with the halapeno peppers) and had a Victory Storm King
Imperial Stout and a Monster 2000 barley Wine from Brooklyn Brewing.  They
were both great and packed quite a wallop.  The Monster is quite smooth
(I'll have to stash a few bottles away for a while for aging).  I loved the
Storm King (full, hoppy, roasted, perfect Imperial).  

I Then trudged over to B&E Quality Beverages to find some HopDevil.  $5.99
bought me a mixed six pack with 4 HD and 2 PrimaPils from Victory. Now I was
excited, I had finally found some HopDevil - its not available upstate yet.
I discussed barley wines with some fellow in line and he told me about the
1084 barley wine from Ipswich.  They didn't have any left here but I got
some up near 43rd and 8th in a little market.  Cost $4.99 for a 10 oz.
bottle but it should make a good Xmas present to my SO. Also got some
anderson valley beers - their IPA and their oatmeal stout.

I then managed to get over to the Gingerman.  I immediately ordered a Hop
Devil on tap.  Perfect.  When I ordered it, the cute bartender girl then
proceeded to say they had just tapped Old Horizontal Barley Wine and I just
had to try it.  So, yes, she pored me a half wine glass full and left me to
enjoy all the hops around me.  had a nice conversation with a Xmas shopper
next to me.  Finished them both and asked for another "sample" of Old Hor.
She again half filled my glass (again, no charge) and I finished it off.
They will certainly be visited again.  The HopDevil was much smoother and
less harsh than I was planning on.  Must be the maltiness of the German
grains in combination with the hops.  Quite excellent brews.

I then headed back up and took in some Thai food and a show.

Afterwards, some friends met at the Times Square brewery for a few minutes.
The brewery part was nice since I pretty much could climb on the equipment
since it wasn't behind glass and was easily accessable.  The beer was thin,
non-hoppy, and pretty terrible.  I will not return.

Overall, a great trip.  And the quest to drink HopDevil is over.  Now, the
quest to make something similar begins.  maybe by next year, this time.

Ohh, and about the type of brewer question, I am a techno-chain brewer.
Usually, one brew a week twice a month often using the same yeast cake.  And
I'm a batch sparger - limited to about 10 lbs. of grain in my mash often
making 3.5 gallon sized batches of 1.050 to 1.055 OG.

Happy Holidays,

Pete czerpak


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:23:41 -0000
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: cask breather for corny??

A cask breather (CO2 demand valve) is available through the UK 
Homebrew Trade, from Brupaks (www.brupaks.demon.co.uk). This 
works very well with cornies & hand pumps. Note that Brupaks is a 
wholesaler and will not sell direct. I suggest making contact with a 
UK HB shop for mail order. For a list check out:

http://www.breworld.com/homebrew/supplier/hobrshop.htm

Almost all of these will be able to supply one for you.

Nigel Porter


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:54:38 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: Re: RIMS

"I wasn't trying to say that my system "is best", although my choice of
systems should give a clue which one I prefer. Just trying to point out
what I think is a positive characteristic of the SHMS (mixer combined
with a heat exchanger in the mash tun) and thought I'd point out an
alternative mashing system considering the overwelming popularity of
RIMS.
 And yes, if anyone thinks they have a good system or think they have
the "best system" then, by all means, lets hear it!"

Sorry Dave, didn't mean to jump on ya. You weren't trying to claim that
your system was best, and I apologize for my tone. I didn't, and still
don't, feel that it is the nature of a RIMS to have a non-homogenous temps.
I agree that a mixer would be great, but I think that the type of in and
out manifolds employed determine if you are getting even flow across the
grain bed. I have done tests with dye on spent grains, as well as sticking
multiple (calibrated together) thermometers in various positions in the
mash, and as I said, now that I have my manifolds under control, seem to
have  very little temp variation in the mash. Most of the inconsistency is
near the edges of the mash tun. As well, I get great extraction.

The other positive effect of the ERIMS is the ease of using a PID or other
controller, which for me has been a huge help in consistency. How do you
control your temp? I have found that I am too easily distracted to reliably
control the temp myself. And I love being able to do other brew tasks
during the mash.

As I understand it, one of the main benefits of the heat exchanger system
is the gentle quality of the heating. For me this is not an issue, as I
live in a tiny cabin in the woods and my electricity is so poor that my
problem is getting a fast enough ramp. However, when I tried the system at
my friends house that has decent power, the PID had no problem controlling
the ramp. Are there any other reasons for heat exchangers? The ERIMS system
is completed and running perfectly. Maybe it's time to change to a SHMS.....


********************************************

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from
them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and
the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
 -- John Wayne

********************************************



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:00:15 -0600
From: plutchak at lothlorien.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Subject: Re: cask ale

In HBD #3194, jim writes:
>all this talk about cask ale in  a corny got me thinking (again)
>about the possibility of a breather for a home set up. Does one
>exist? ... If someone can design, build and sell a cheap one, I'm
>sure interest in cask ale in this country's homebreweries
>would go through the roof!!

   They can put me on their customer list for the first
run.  It'd be great to have cask-conditioned beer always on.
('Course, I'd have to get a few more cornies; the last alleged
seller I sent an inquiry to completely failed to answer my
email.  Sometimes I think customer service is a lost art.)
- --
Joel



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:00:19 -0500
From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com>
Subject: Re: Lunacy

The always tactful and accurate Mr. Niebergall expounds:

>I don't know what planet Mr. Burley resides on, but here on earth, the
>winter solstice will occur on December 21 and the full moon will be on
>December 23.  At least that's what my calendar shows.
- -->snip<--
>Dave, are you just making this crap up (odd days, bazaar diet theories,
>moon rituals following a pagan calendar) because you are bored?  Give it a
>break already.

You really should spend 1 or 2 minutes looking up your facts before you go
off on somebody.  The Winter Solstice starts on Dec 22 at 2:45 AM and the
full moon is on Dec 22 at 12:33 PM.  Whether Dave's Fun Facts (TM) are
relevant or not is another matter but perhaps you could follow you own
advice...

Paul Fans and Dave Bashers -  Flame Away!

Scott Moore
Medina, Ohio

(Actually, I don't know Dave Burley, I just get tired of the fire and see
what you can hit attitude that is prevalent in many newsgroups and digests.)


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 10:06:24 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: PID for RIMS

From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>

>...found 
>a PID for $129, SSR & heatsink for $48, and thermocouple probe for $23....

This $48 for a heatsink can almost always be considered optional.  A
heatsink is promoted by sellers as if some kind of magic wonder device, and
priced accordingly.  Actually it is one of the dumbest, least exotic devices
you can think of.  All one needs is some kind of metal mass to pass the heat
on to.  It can be any kind of metal, steel, aluminum, copper, it just needs
to be big enough to sink the heat.  

The fancy expensive ones	 will be more efficient, but hey, you just
do not need this IF you have other means to sink the heat.  One way of
course, is to use the metal stand, the enclosure (if it's big enough, and it
usually is), or even a piece of   
scrap metal.    You will know by touching it in operation.  If  you can
easily keep your hand on it, it's fine.  By the way an SSR is a fairly
efficient device, and does not need huge amounts of heat sinking.

>....Considering that its probably unsafe to leave any RIMS unsupervised for
a 
>significant length of time, I am not sure that a PID is really needed.
Since 
>the cost of the PID system would just about double the cost of my RIMS, I 
>decided to delay adding it to my system initially. Now that I've actually 
>mashed with the unit, I'm pretty sure that the PID is not necessary...

Ooh, in football season, how dare you!! :>))

Sure, a simple thermostat with a small temperature differential set point,
is all you need.

>Even though I'm a technogeek engineer and the cost is not really an issue, 
>the tightwad and pragmatist part of me says that the PID is probably not 
>going to happen. I recommend that you try your system manually before
adding 
>that feature. I felt that I was more a part of the process, and the manual 
>temp control was not a hassle. If it had been, I would definitely be in 
>favor of the PID system.

Since I am a  homebrewer homebrewer I just make my own controllers,
thermostats, etc.  There's a lot that can be done with the 555 timer I.C.
and a few parts.  There's a great book I can recommend from an earlier post
of mine:

You can use a 555 IC timer chip in a circuit to vary the on/off from 0 to
100% with a 1/2 second cycle time.  It is a simple circuit that I have used
in several controllers.  You will find the circuit in "THE 555 TIMER
APPLICATIONS SOURCEBOOK" by Howard M. Berlin published by Howard W. Sams &
Co., Inc. page 32.

>"Meandering to a different drummer"

And what a beautiful sight to see.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:12:46 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Fat From Beer

	Ok, just to make things clear.  Beer doesn't make you fat, it just
gives you big bones.

Brad



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:17:40 -0500 (EST)
From: patrick finerty <zinc at zifi.psf.sickkids.on.ca>
Subject: installing valve in aluminum kettle 

hi folks,

i want to install a ball valve on the 15 gal aluminum kettle i use for
boiling wort. this is primarily to facilitate use of a counterflow
chiller (currently using an immersion chiller) but also to avoid the
mess i always get with a siphon. fwiw, the kettle is very thick so i'm
not concerned about it tearing or something worse.

i've looked through the hbd archives and found one description posted
regarding installation of a valve from years ago. nonetheless, i
thought i'd bring this up again to see what opinion any of you might
have regarding this.

this is going on my boiling kettle so the valve components must
withstand the heat of my 30K BTU camp chef burner. i'm also wondering
how well solder used for the brass fittings (if i do solder) will
withstand the heat. what about epoxy instead? does anyone know the
temperature limits for it?

thanks,
patrick in toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key


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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:29:27 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sparging, exercise, Full Moon, NA beer

Brewsters:

ChuckM discusses a sparging technique in
which the wort is removed, blended with a
portion of the sparge water and put back
through the tun.  He asks if anyone else does this.

I use a similar technique which I thought I
developed ( nothing new under the sun,
especially in brewing.) for making rye beers
since the viscosity is both very temperature
dependent and concentration dependent.
I drain the bed quickly and  completely of
the wort, heat this back to 170F or so and
meanwhile sparge quickly with a portion of
hot water (170F). These two worts are combined
and passed back through the grain slowly to
clafiry the wort. The rest of the sparge is done
normally. This avoids the common problem
with stuck rye sparges. May work with high
wheat. Never tried it.  

- -------------------------------------------
I really didn't want to get into a diet argument
here on the HBD, since I was just pointing out
that beer is less fattening than non-fat milk
when you consider carbohydrates. I was trying
to give some material to the original poster
to argue back when faced with the argument
that beer is fattening.

Maybe The Janitors should open up another
site. Remember also that only about  75%
of the population has this "survival response
problem" and will respond to this diet.

Anecdotes of people who can eat all they
want and still maintain weight are legend.
I am married to one. I even tried just eating
what my wife ate as a way of dieting and
I gained weight. She still weighs just a little
over 100 pounds as when we were married.
My wife and daughter both completed the
NY marathon. My daughter came in third in
her age group. So I have at least been
close to marathon runners. {8^) For me,
just running is a boring activity. 


As far as exercise and diet, they go hand
in hand and I was surprised to find that this
was not true in the Adkins diet, according
to Marc Sedam.

The Protein Power diet with which I am
familiar  emphasizes weight lifting as a
part of the procedure to build muscles,
so the metabolism is increased. This
diet takes into account the exercise
level you are already doing to develop
the recommended amount of protein
you should consume to maintain your
lean body mass ( which is determined 

by measurement ), marathoner or couch
potato. They are different.

 An early private e-mail from a weight lifter
and HBDer said I was obviously going
to get flamed for my comments, but he
was writing to me in support of the low carb
diet. Hecommented that he had plateaued
in his weight lifting activities until he went
on the Adkins diet and he quickly began
to improve. Perhaps his previous diet was
too low in protein for his activity level.
He has a body fat content of 9% and
was apparently on a classic low cal diet
to maintain that with its limited protein.
Running is a good aerobic exercise,
but apparently is not as good at
muscle building as weight lifting.

It does take calories to maintain fat what 

with blood vessels pumping through it
and moving it around and the  like. The
ratio is three for muscle to one for fat.

I have never had a stamina problem, quite
the opposite, as calorie intake is quite high
on this diet As others have also reported to
me, the high protein diet improves stamina
and body tone.  Other weird biophysical 

phenomenon Marc noted on his Adkins diet
were never noted by me on the PP diet.

I like this diet because it actually permits
beer and real food as part of the lifestyle
maintenance, unlike low calorie diets.

Best of all it works for me, others don't.
- ------------------------------------------
As far as using your calendar to predict
positions of the moon and stars - don't.
Our calendar is 1 quarter of a day off
every year and we crank it back - almost
 - every leap year. It can be up to a day
off from siderial time.  Talk to your local
observatory to confirm or deny the
conjunction of the full moon and the solstice
and report back here.
- ------------------------------------------
Alan Meeker's in depth and completely
referenced discussion on NA beer, caloric
content and the like really amazed me
for its depth and thoughtfulness. {8^)

Alan, you don't have to believe me,
but I'd appreciate your keeping personal
opinions as to my credibility to a
non-public arena. If I am wrong, I will
be more than happy to admit it if you
or others can provide the evidence.

More knowledgable people than I
have provided a diet which works for 

lots of people and nearly effortlessly
by focussing on controlling carbohydrate
content and not counting calories. Health
is maintained by assuring proper protein
content is in the diet. The diet includes
some fat so food is at least tasty and 

the dieter does not get bored and binge.

Low carbohydrate diets have been
shown to provide relief from
hyperinsulinemia which can cause adult
onset diabetes and other blood sugar
related problems, high blood pressure, heart
disease. dylipidemia ( high cholesterol and
triglycerides),  and reflux disease as
well as obesity. It is supported by clinical
work and lots of peer reviewed papers
have been written to support it.

I have a  series of 400 peer reviewed
scientific references on the subject and
in support of this diet and would be happy
to supply the reference list if you promise
you will read them. Send me your address.

If you don't undersand how it works,
don't curse the darkness and question
other people's motives, just because
you don't understand or because it 

is a new and different concept.

The big difference is, I and a lot of other
beer drinkers have been  on this diet 

and it works. It may not work for skinny
people who don't have a problem.
But then why should it?

Check out www. proteinpower.com
yadda, yadda.
- ------------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:15:51 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Baking Soda

james r layton asks for comments on the use of bicarbonate to increase
alkalinity. Each 84 milligrams of sodium bicarbonate will increase the
alkalinity of a liter of water  by 50 ppm as CaCO3 or, if you prefer,
the bicarbonate by 61 ppm. The sodium level will also increase by 23 ppm
and that's probably why few brewers use NaHCO3 preferring to get their
carbonate from chalk which gives extra calcium rather than extra sodium.
On the other hand, bicarb dissolves more easily than chalk and can,
thus, be added to the liquor rather than to the mash as must be done
with chalk. IMO calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) is preferrable to either
chalk or bicarb because it neutralizes acidity without adding carbonate
at the same time it augments beneficial calcium.


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---