---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: Scaling Up - The Next Step? (MaltHound)
  Budvar and malt ("Dr. Pivo")
  big bones (Tom Lombardo)
  Classical Music (Elizabeth Blades)
  (no subject) (DKing99)
  solstice and full moon ("Sean Richens")
  Oxygenator regulator. (Michael Kowalczyk)
  Hugh Baird ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  What If I want to build a brewery? ("Don Glass")
  Boom goes the Propane... ("John Stegenga")
  Re: More steam (RobertJ)
  false bottom design - any experience out there? ("J. Doug Brown")
  Controlling Fermentation Temperature (Harley Ellenberger)
  Chiller coils (Dave Hinrichs)
  re: Cask breathers for cornies (Paul Kensler)
  beer/alcohol regulations ("Larry Maxwell")
  Sydney Olympics and beer ("Bruce Garner")
  Re: Cask Ale Pressure Problem ("Bruce Garner")
  5 L Minikegs (Dan Listermann)
  Diets (Eric Schoville)
  More on hop teas, new hops ("Bill Riel")
  Beer Engine Problems (Eric Schoville)
  millenium. . .milli vanilli? (MVachow)
  Reverse flow RIMS revisited ("John Watts")
  Fad Diets (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Propane Dangers! (Dave Humes)
  Yeast profiles (Headduck)
  Outside lines... (Some Guy)
  Urquell and green bottles ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  Propane indoors (Rob Dewhirst)
  Dangers of propane indoors (Ken Pendergrass)
  A little propane can be a dangerous thing ("Sean Richens")
  Carbonation level (Bruce & Amber Carpenter)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:23:51 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: RE: Scaling Up - The Next Step?

In HBD3195  Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
wrote Subject: Scaling Up - The Next Step?:

<< However, I'm loathe to start spending wads of cash on equipment
 (a couple hundred bucks for a burner, a couple hundred bucks for a
 nice, larger pot, probably need a wort chiller at this point, should
 think about going all-grain) without looking at the options.  Should I
 just jump past that to something more elegant, not to mention maybe
 easier to clean? >>

Several folks have given you fairly moderate alternatives to the expensive 
"all out" approach, and any of these may be suitable to you.  However, since 
you are not sure if all-grain brewing is for you might want to try a couple 
of things before you plunk down your cash on that wizz-bang brewing set-up.

Optimum situation:
Find an all-grain brewer and make a batch with them to see how much you like 
the process in general.  Also, you will get ideas on how to manufacture and 
customize your own brewery to your available brewing environment.

Alternative frugal Yankee approach:
Assuming you are already a homebrewer, there are really only 3 additional 
pieces of equipment to make a jump to all-grain full-mash brewing.

Brew kettle large enough to boil > 5 gallons.  The cheapest way out is to buy 
a 33 quart porcelean on steel canning kettle at the local hardware store.  
These are ~$30 and even should you decide you are not going to g all-grain 
all the time, it still makes a good brew kettle, allowing for full volume 
boils in extract batches.  It's also handy for the occasional 
lobster/crab/fish boil should you give up brewing someday altogether.  I can 
tell you from first hand experience that it is quite possible to boil 6 
gallons of wort in one of these on an electric stove top by spanning two 
burners.

Chiller.  Since you are going to boil the full volume you will probably want 
a way to get the boiled wort down to yeast pitching temperature.  There is 
anecdotal evidence that says that this is really not absolutely necessary and 
that you can just let the wort cool on it's own, however there are many 
arguments that say this is not a good thing, not the least of which is that 
it allows you to pitch your yeast quicker and beat the bad critters 
(bacteria) to the goods.  It also means the beer will be finished just that 
much sooner!  A fully functional immersion chiller can be easily made from a 
coil of refrigeration tubing for another $30.  This too will be a completely 
useful item should you later decide that the mashing life is not for you.

The last item you will need is a place to lauter your mash.  The reason I say 
lauter and not mash is that it is perfectly acceptable to mash in the same 
vessel (kettle) that you will later boil in.  In fact, for single infusion 
mashes, placing the mash tun (kettle) in a preheated oven will hold your mash 
temp quite nicely for the time required for conversion.  

A perfectly serviceable lauter tun can be made for absolutely free, and with 
relatively little effort, a la the Zapap.  A Zapap is the homemade "bucket in 
a bucket" style lauter tun described in the Papazian "Joy of Homebrewing" 
books.

Sure, if you later decide you want to stick with the mashing program you can 
make more efficient, fancier mash and lauter in the same vessel type rigs, 
but the cost of the much maligned Zapap can not be beat with a big stick.  
Finding used food grade buckets at the local doughnut shop and drilling some 
holes in the inner bucket is a cinch.   Even this device has some potential 
utility (as a hop back) should you move either on to a fancier lauter/mash 
tun or gravitate back to the ease of extract brews.

By spending very little on testing your desire to brew all-grain you may be 
saving yourself a serious wad of cash.  I personally know a couple of pepole 
that dropped out of brewing altogether after investing huge amounts of time 
and $$ mostly due to persdonal time limitations.  OTOH, should you decide 
like many of us that this is a lot of fun, you can buy (or make) the right 
equipment to fulfill your needs.  At that point you'll probably want to buy 
the gas burner and 15 gallon kettle and put together the fancy mash / lauter 
tun (RIMS maybe?) that will accomodate 10 gallon batches.  

Just another option for you. (like you didn't have enough choices already!)

Regards,
Fred Wills


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:55:25 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Budvar and malt

Some discussion, suppositions, and opinions have been given on this subject.

A few facts, and some of my own opinions.

1) Budvar has 4 malt suppliers rather than one.

2) They have a difficult time being supplied with under modified malts,
as the malting scene in Czecho has chased the brewing scene, that is,
many are opting for modern methods.

3) Budvar has made IMO a very good effort at trying to retain the
original product, and when modernising, rather than replace wholesale
with modern equipment, they have thought through the process nicely and
designed in order to retain traditional conditions (witness their custom
made "fat boy" CKT's rather than purchasing the available tall things,
in order to more emulate pressure conditions of the old open ferments).

4) Budvar's good economic status is primarily based on them
concentrating on the export market, letting them avoid the price and
restructure war that is presently taking place (I believe they were at
53 percent export at last look--- compare the planned Plzen/Radegast
fusion and 44 percent of the home market).

5) Probably the most positive and trustworthy comments attributable to
Budvar I have heard, come from Brewmasters at other breweries.  Budvar
is the only one of the big ones that consistently gets praised for both
quality and consistency (you'll just have to take my word on that).

6) Now for some opinions that are guaranteed to "T" some people off. If
you do not think that using undermodified malt and traditional methods
is inherently different than modern technique and highly modified malts,
then I'll wager that you have very little tasting experience with the
first named.  Probably the closest example to hand of this are the
prestigious PIVEX awards (National Czech industrial brewing awards). 
None of the big guys ever get even close to the finals anymore, but are
swept by tiny little breweries who have opted for maintaining mainly
traditional techniques AND supplies.

7) Have you NOT had any, or much tasting experience with these classic
beers, you better hurry up.... They are disappearing at an alarming
rate...... most shocking is that opinions presented on this forum that
stand on the "industrial party line" of the rationale that is causing
their disappearance.  You don't think the big breweries "say" that they
make crappy beer, do you?  No - they have a whole research division to
PROVE that they make good beer.

8) Do I think that having undermodified Moravian malt is necessary for
producing a Czech beer? No.... but it may be the easiest.  The only
product or technique I have found irreplaceable in the production of a
good Czech Pilsner is Saaz Hops (though Halertau Herzbrucher makes a
"poor cousin" if in a pinch).  Visits to my cellar by Brewmasters from
Czecho would seem to confirm this.

9) When in my whining voice, I complain to Bremasters there about the
perceptible  declining protein content, they candidly admit that it is a
concerted effort from malting to brewing, in order to reduce stability
problems.... if you want to be in the game today, you are looking at
achieving 18 month shelf lives.  I'll let that sink in.... Reducing
protein content does NOT make better beer.... it creates longer shelf
life.... but then again, a loaf of "Langendorf White", lasts much longer
than the sour doughs I pull out of my wood fired brick oven.

10) The temperatures that Lynne O'Connor posted re: decoction schedules
are essentially correct. Decoctions vary from 2-4 depending on the local
brewing tradition.  I once posted a "range" of times and temps I have
observed to Al Korzonas (whatever in the world he might want them for). 
You might ask him, I don't have that information very well organised in
front of me, as I find it rather useless.

11) Lastly, do I think knowing those numbers are very worthwhile?  Not
terribly.  The most important thing is to get yourself a taste
reference.  You will not get that by reading a book or drinking a bottle
of exported stuff.  If you taste enough of the "local supply" to get
those flavours "locked in" (they are QUITE complex), you can then modify
your brewing to fit them... knowing how to do that is what brewing is
all about, and there is plenty of info here about the theory.  

If knowing an exact schedule and "in house" secrets would guarantee you
making a similar product, don't you think "license brewed" stuff would
at least once in a while taste like the mother product?

12) I applaud Lynne O'Connors efforts in making this material available
to home brewers in the US.... my major complaint about "micro brewery"
beer in the states is that it is "unnessecarily thin", and this may be a
good move in my preferred direction.

13) Mostly I am envious of Lynne's taste buds in about three months
time...It's just over a year since my last visit to Czecho, and I feel a
dire need for a "taste reference" refresher.

Dr. Pivo

P.S. On an even less encouraging note, word has it, that Anheuser Busch
has invested in Samson brewery, which is also in Ceske Budjovice and
older than Budvar.  You can soon expect some real bottled crap and the 
words "The Original Budweiser Beer Brewed in the Czech Republic", and


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:28:38 -0600
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: big bones

Brad Miller writes:
>Ok, just to make things clear.  Beer doesn't make you fat, it just gives
>you big bones.

Yeah, but after too many beers, that big bone might go limp.  (Not that
I've ever had that problem...)

Sorry - I just couldn't hold that one back.

Tom in Rockford IL (USA)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:30:02 GMT
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Elizabeth Blades)
Subject: Classical Music

Hi,

In HBD #3196 Jeff Renner wrote:-


"I just heard a delightful little three minute polka for piano, "Souvenir of
Pilsen" (1844) by the 19th century Czech composer Bedrich Smetana.  [Ivan
Moravec, piano (House of Artists, Prague, 12/18/84) (Nonesuch 791462)].
Composed just about the same time as modern Pilsener was being invented.

Just thought other music loving brewers might like to know.

BTW, I heard it on WKAR-FM in Lansing, which streams audio at
http://www.wkar.org.  With fewer and fewer public radio stations
broadcasting classical music, they are getting listeners from all over the
globe.  If your station has gone to all talk, check it out."

The BBC(ie British Broadcasting Corporation) are now broadcasting radio via 
the net.
For classical music go to Radio3.

You can also go to Classic FM's website and listen there(according to their 
adverts they have the biggest listnership in the world).

No affiliation,just a classical music and beer lover.


Liz                                                                         





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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:14:53 EST
From: DKing99 at aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

         BIER OFFICERS FOR 2000

Brewers in the Endicott Region (BIER, that's in Endicott, NY) had elections 
at their last meeting, and here's the new executive committee;

  Warren Gunbok  --  President
  Paul Waters        --  Vice-president
  John Metz           --  Treasurer
  Paul VanSlyke    --  News Letter Editor 
  Mike DeGroat    --  Host

I've stepped down, to let some new blood lead our band of brewers.  Any 
newsletter editors out there who would like to trade newsletters with us 
should contact Paul as PVanslyke at aol.com.  Warren is wgrunbo at attglobal.net.  
Here's to a great 2000!

  Now, back to the mash tun.......



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:15:36 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: solstice and full moon

Not only will it be a remarkable new moon, but it's the exact middle of
Ramadan.  Of course if you're celebrating Ramadan, you shouldn't be reading
this.  Shame on you.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:54:07 -0800
From: Michael Kowalczyk <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Oxygenator regulator.

I bought from William's brewing an airstone on a SS wand with a filter
attached to it.  Looks like a great system - can't wait to try it.  I want to
use pure O2 instead of an aquarium pump, basically because:
1. I'm lazy
2. I can.

Besides, 30 to 60 seconds with pure O2 sure beats the hell put of 30 to 60
minutes w/ an air pump. 

Anyway, I want to use those red disposable O2 bottles and a regulator, but I
can't seem to find the regulator.  I checked Home Depot, Menards, Lowes,
McMaster Carr...  Can't seem to find them.  I'm thinking I should have just
bought the oxygenator from Liquid Bread.  They seem to be able to get the
right regulator.   I'm thinking of a welding supply store next ( I need a CO2
tank for my kegs anyway).

Anybody been through this and have a part number and manufaturer they can
tell me about?

 - Mike, Not quite blasting with pure O2 in New Lenox Il.

The more I know about being Y2K certified, the more I think it's a bunch of
hooey....


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:08:48 -0800
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <don at steinfillers.com>
Subject: Hugh Baird

Forgive the bandwidth if this has already been answered.

But, Hugh Baird malts are not going away.  Not all of them anyway.
They are only eliminating their importing of the Pilsen malt and a few of
their crystal malts.  Those crystal malts that they are no longer going to
import will be made by Great Western in the U.S. from imported British malt.
I have been carrying the GW crystal malt for a while and find it every bit
as good in quality to British crystal.

All the roasted malts will continue to be imported by GW;  choc, roasted
barley, black malt. ...

The HB British Pale malt (Maris Otter) will continue to be imported by GW.

Relax and have a homebrew --

Don Van Valkenburg
brew at steinfillers.com
www.steinfillers.com


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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:43:06 PST
From: "Don Glass" <deglass at hotmail.com>
Subject: What If I want to build a brewery?

I live in a foreign country and ordering turnkey systems is prohibitively 
expensive for a small brewpub due to shipping.  I am interested in finding 
information on the net or in print about how to construct a small brewery 
(say...2-5bbl).  I would be particularly interested in plans or schematics.

Thanks in advance for the help

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:19:43 -0500
From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
Subject: Boom goes the Propane...

In HBD 3197, Bob asks:
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:22:52 -0700 (MST)
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl at austinc.edu>
Subject: Propane Indoors

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, jim booth wrote:
>
> Hope folks noticed the article about the Michigan citizen
> dutifully preparing for Y2K, stored propane in his
> basement and blew away his house.
>
> This issue has been discussed ad naseum in previous
> HBD's, but, did we really take the hazard seriously?

What exactly is the danger of a small (i.e. barbecue-sized) container of
propane?  I ask because I have one stored in my flat in a closet and I
would hate to burn the place down.  I always store it with all valves
closed and hoses disconnected, well away from heat sources &c.

Bob Uhl

Well Bob, If you leak test and properly secure that small propane tank the
odds of it going BOOM are quite small.  You're more likely to hit the lotto,
in fact.  Propane accidents are almost always caused by a loose nut behind
the wheel, as it were.  In fact, this guy who blew up his house was a
survivalist wacko who was convinced that January 1 2000 would be the end of
civilization as we know it.  The tank that blew, if I recall the news
properly, was one of TEN!! 200lb tanks he had in the basement of his house,
along with a years worth of supplies and water!  The valve was not properly
tightened and resulted in a leak.  When the propane reached a pilot light in
his basement, BOOM went the gas.  The tank itself, if I recall, did not go
boom - just enough loose gas to move the house off of it's block wall
foundation!

When storing the tank, that little white plug that's attached should always
be securely in place.  I also have 'gages' on mine, which include a second
safety valve.  These gages are available for about $15.00 each at
homedespot...

John
AKA Bigjohn's
Bigjohn's Basement Brew House
Woodstock, GA



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:02:23 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: More steam 

From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>

A couple of posters mention that direct injection of steam into the mash is
bad because you might heat
portions of the mash enough to extract tannins.  I don't agree.  After all,
when you decoct a portion of
the mash you're doing the same thing but to an even greater extent.  I did
not notice any astringency
with any of my steam-injected beers,
_____
When you decoct you're taking only the thickest part of the mash and have a
low liquid to grain ration.

Tanin is extracted in a high liquid to grain ratio causing astringency.

Regarding steam injection, I suspect as long as you stir the mash you will
avoid any overheating.


Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:28:59 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: false bottom design - any experience out there?

Hello,
  I am slowly starting to assemble my RIMS unit and was starting to
think of a false bottom to use in by 1/2 barrel keg.  I understand I
should try to maximize the percentage open area in the false bottom, but
I am not sure of how much support would be necessary based on the
spacing between holes and hole size.  I also have heard of 1/8" holes
any larger holes been used?  This is a rims so I think I could go up to
maybe 1/4" and still setup a filter bed, recirculated grains prior to
filter bed setup would be pumped back on top the grain bed.  Anybody
with any experimental data on false bottom and hole size.  The table
below contains my calculations with hole diameter along the left column,
and spacing between holes across the top row.  The values shown are
percentage open area.  


hole dia               spacing
      1/32     1/16     3/32     1/8      5/32     3/16     7/32
1/32  22.7     10.1     5.67     3.63     2.52     1.85     1.42
1/16  40.3     22.7     14.5     10.1     7.4      5.67     4.48
3/32  51       32.6     22.7     16.7     12.8     10.1     8.16
1/8   58       40.3     29.6     22.7     17.9     14.5     12
5/32  63       46.3     35.4     28       22.7     18.7     15.7
3/16  66.6     51       40.3     32.6     27       22.7     19.3
7/32  69.4     54.9     44.4     36.7     30.9     26.3     22.7


I would like to keep spacing to a minimum while still maintaining the
intregrity and durability of the false bottom.  I am currently thinking
of the follwing potential sets as likely candidates.  

Hole diameter   Spacing between    Open Area
1/8             1/16               40.3
5/32            1/16               46.3

Possible materials include sheets of 304 Stainless Steel, 316 Stainless
Steel,
Alloy 101 copper and Alloy 110 Copper in the following thicknesses
(inches):
0.036, 0.048, 0.060, 0.75, and 0.120. 

The physical design of the false bottom as I imagine it now would be a
16-18 inch diameter false bottom plate with at least a X brace attached 
to the bottom of it for added stability. If anybody has any suggestions 
for design, or knows of a good one I would appreciate the help.  I am
looking to build a sturdy, long lasting false bottom meant to withstand
regular usage and some abuse.

PS private email is fine.  jbrown at labyrinth.net

Thanks
  Doug
- -- 
		     J. Doug Brown - Fairmont, WV
			Sr. Software Engineer
	       jbrown at labyrinth.net     jbrown at ewa.com


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:07:50 -0500
From: Harley Ellenberger <HarleyE at CMAGTRACKS.com>
Subject: Controlling Fermentation Temperature

I am wondering if you can offer any suggestions on simple ways to control
fermentation temperatures.  I find it difficult to get my temps. to drop
below 72 degrees F.  I have heard of the carboy in the pan filled with a bit
of water and a tee-shirt over top, but haven't yet tried it.  I don't have
an extra refrigerator so I can't set up one of those fancy fermentation
coolers.  I try to keep my carboy at the coolest and driest area in my apt.
but still can't seem to get the right temperatures.  Any ideas?

Thanks
Harley Ellenberger


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:20:23 -0600
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: Chiller coils

Another thing to consider in the construction of a chiller coil is the
hieght of the kettle. I constructed mine with the in/out tubes having a 90
degree bend to keep the connections outside of the kettle in case of
leakage. When I originally made mine it fit nicely in my 5 gallon pot I was
using at the time. When I stepped up to a 15 Gallon Kettle it now hangs
from the rim.
***************************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs                 E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.             Voice: (612) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204              FAX: (612) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                        *
*                http://www.quannon.com/                      *


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:55:03 -0600
From: Paul Kensler <Paul.Kensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: re: Cask breathers for cornies

Tony said:

"Now this may sound strange coming from a 'Limey' but Just how do you
implement a cask breather with a Corny Keg? <snip>  Do I simply splice the
thing into my Gas line and leave the regulator set to 20psi? or do I have to
turn the pressure down to the much quoted ~1psi?"


Tony,
The cask breather I mentioned in my post the other day (sold by UK Brewing)
splices into your gas line.  You set your regulator for 5 psi, and the
breather keeps the beer at 1 psi.  That way, there is no leaking due to high
pressure, and the breather's high flow rate prevents a suction from being
formed in the cask / keg.

Since you have to set the in-pressure to 5 psi (assuming you have other kegs
in your draft system), you would need either a separate gas dispense system
or simply a second regulator for the cask gas line.  Of course if you only
have one keg at a time anyway, that wouldn't be a problem.


Hope this helps!

Paul Kensler
Lansing, MI


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:18:29 -0500
From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net>
Subject: beer/alcohol regulations

Having just moved to Georgia from California, I'm trying to come
to grips with the restrictive alcohol laws here and wondering if
any of you GA brewers are aware of efforts to change the legislation.
I was recently at a party where I was offered a Sierra Nevada
Celebration Ale that my host was treating like it was moonshine
or something.  He said beer over 6% ABV can't be sold here,
so every year he buys Celebration or other contraband seasonals
when he's out-of-state on business.  From what I have been
told, it appears I have also been spoiled by the ability in
California to buy alcohol in stores on Sunday, to have a mimosa
or bloody mary with my Sunday brunch, and to buy hard liquor in
the grocery and convenience stores.  My host, an apparently
knowledgeable beer geek, also told me that brewpubs were only
legalized a few years ago! I realize many states have these
paternalistic laws. Does anyone know of a source that would tell
me what efforts are being or have been made to change them,
particularly in Georgia?  I would be glad to participate in any
lobbying efforts.  Private email is fine.

Larry Maxwell
Atlanta
stranded in the Bible Belt




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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:54:22 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Sydney Olympics and beer

My daughter will be rowing in Sydney 15-25 Sep 2000. I am interested in
email from homebrewers in the Sydney area. I'd like to bring some beer down
from the states, explore the local beer scene and find modest digs with a
family or a B&B. I don't know the transport system there but I understand
the rowing is at Penrith Lakes 40-50 Km west of the city center. Hope to
hear from you.

Bruce Garner
Madison, Wisconsin


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:54:18 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Cask Ale Pressure Problem

Jeff, here's my late entry:

I am concerned that the plastic bag CO2 reservoir would leak or that the gas
would pass through the plastic if it were left on for a long period of time.
I don't want to deal with it every time I want a beer. In my solution I
looked toward finding a more gas tight reservoir.

Cask breathing at ambient air pressure should be able to take place using
three containers. Beer in a corny keg. CO2 in a second closed container at
least as large as the keg with two fittings at the top - a stoppered carboy
or corny keg will work. Water in a third container which is open. This can
be a trash can. If all three containers are the same level a hand pump is
needed to pull beer out of the keg, drop the pressure in the gas container
causing water to be drawn out of the third container and gradually replace
the gas. If all three containers are a few feet above the tap the beer will
deliver by pressure without a pump. In this case a glass carboy can be used
for gas. It will visually indicate how much beer is left in the keg as it
fills with water. Alternatively if the water container is set high with a
siphon into the gas container or if it is replaced by a by a connection to
the city water system valved to a trickle, water pressure will drive the
system. The height of the water container can be adjusted to tune the
serving pressure. If city water pressure is employed a corny should be used
for gas. The gas vessel can be put on a bathroom scale to measure how much
water is in it.

What do think?

Bruce Garner
Madison, Wisconsin

Regrets in advance to Kyle in Bakersfield, CA

Wisconsin will score the first ever back to back Big 10 wins in the Rose
Bowl.


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:25:37 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: 5 L Minikegs


Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com> writes:

<5 liter mini kegs were the worst brewing investment I've ever made. 

They leak, the priming directions result in warping, and you'll spend so
much on CO2 cartridges that you could buy 4 large stainless kegs and a
complete CO2 system for the money.>

All these criticisims _WERE_ true.  Check out listermann.com.  We have 
been
producing "Phil's Relieph Bung" which eliminates the warping ( technical
term "boinking" ) problem and we have recently introduced the "Philtap"
which takes care of the leaking problem.  Further the "Philtap" will
dispense beer with the can standing on its end or laying on its side for
discreet fridge storage and enhanced spousal acceptability.


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:37:47 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Diets

Folks,

    I am personally getting a little tired of all of the diet related
posts.  Let's take them somewhere else.

Eric
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:38:09 -0800
From: "Bill Riel" <briel at uniserve.com>
Subject: More on hop teas, new hops

Greetings,

The recent talk about hop teas has got me thinking (always a dangerous
thing, that). Is there any reason one couldn't just extract a bit of
the beer (with a wine thief, for example) and use that as is (or
diluted) to make a hop tea with? It seems to me it would be a simple
way to solve the acid level problem.

On another hop front, I recently attended the local CAMRA Christmas
party, and I won some hops. They're supposed to be new varieties, and I
haven't been able to find anything out about them. The first is called
'Santiam', and its alpha acid level is 5.3%. The second is called
'Horizon', and it weighs in at 10% AA. Anybody know anything about
these hops?

Cheers,

Bill


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:42:18 -0600
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Beer Engine Problems

Paul Kensler wrote:

>My concern is that since the draft line outside the
>freezer and the pump itself would be at room temperature, the beer
inside
>would spoil and turn sour.  I don't drink much, my normal habits would
make
>me expect to have 2-3 pints a week, meaning that there wouldn't be a
lot of
>volume being moved through the pump and lines.

The simple solution is to drink more beer.

Eric Schovile
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:43:16 -0600
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: millenium. . .milli vanilli?

	Kelly speculates that the chap whose Y2K basement stash of propane
blew the house skyward was really just making sure he could brew on Jan. 1.
Perhaps we should all stock up for brew sessions on Jan. 1.  An enterprising
homebrewer could make a nice little chunk of cash in the few days the
Anheuser Busch computers are down.  Score this one in the bang category for
the arrival of the millenium.  I find the wimper category far more amusing.
Perhaps you all caught the Nightline edition a couple of weeks ago when Ted
Koppel hosted two university history teachers who were there to explain the
nature of the first millenium.  Koppel just couldn't manage to extract from
these fellows any historical confirmation of the shallow, self-important
frenzy that dominates our modern response to the millenium.  With the vast
majority of the Western world impoverished, illiterate and dying of the
plague in 999, the professors explained, most folks had no idea what day of
the week it was much less what year, and if they had hoped for anything from
the millenium, it would have been a welcome apocalypse.  Furthermore, the
professors commented, the modern calendar is probably miscalculated by six
years or so anyway, the true millenium having passed around the time Milli
Vanilli was exposed.  Milli Vanilli. . . . millenium. . . .coincidence?  I
don't think so.

Mike


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:54:17 -0600
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Reverse flow RIMS revisited

Re Pete Czerpak's post in #3195 where he was talking about the design of
the mash tun/fluidized bed reactor.  Instead of having a tall skinny mash
tun (although I think a 6' tall tun would look really cool), would you be
able to get the same affect by rigging up a vertical tube to an existing
mash tun?  Would this give the particles would have time/space to drop
out.  Big question is how big of a pipe would you need?  Not to mention if this
would work at all!

Rgds




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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:56:34 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
Subject: Fad Diets

I thought I might also comment on this. I used to weigh well over 700
pounds -- until I discovered Reverend Srivani's Hyper Chakra Diet.
After a year of nothing more than Slim Jims, Crystal Lite and high
colonics 4 times daily (or more!) I lost over 100 pounds and now have
the physique of an apollonian demi-god. Plus I've grown a third nipple
and acquired the ability to change the oil in my van USING ONLY MY
MIND! AND I feel great --  with STAMINA to spare! Literally. The
garage is overflowing with boxes of my excess stamina, which I'll
gladly send anyone for postage.

On a related note, I cam across an article in a back issue of BT that
recommended a maximum rate of cooling of yeast starters of 18 degrees
F. per day. I have always assumed that the rate should be 8-10F/day.
Any comments? 
**************************************


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:05:00 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Propane Dangers!

Greetings,

Propane tanks have an integral pressure relief valve.  It is designed to
release excess pressure in a controlled fashion rather than risking rupture
and catastrophic release of the gas.  If your supplier were to inadvertently
overfill your tank a little, then just a moderate
pressure increase from bringing it in from the outside cold could make the
valve release.  I've had it happen more than once with different tanks.  We
had one that was just filled sitting on the deck.  When the sun hit it, it
started releasing.  It may be a controlled release, but it could easily be
enough to ignite, especially since propane is heavier than air and will
accumulate in enclosed spaces.  I used to keep the spare tank in the garage
until I got a call from the wife one day saying that the house smelled like
gas and something was making funny sounds in the garage.  This could get
real interesting if you were to leave a freshly filled tank in the car with
the windows shut on a sunny day.  The temperature rise would be likely to
cause the relief valve to release and your car would fill with propane.  Now
you open the door and with a little spark from the entry light switch and
your brewing days will come to a premature end.

Please DO NOT EVEN THINK OF STORING PROPANE INDOORS!

- --Dave



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:34:10 EST
From: Headduck at aol.com
Subject: Yeast profiles

Hey brewers and brewsters:

Is there a comparative list somewhere that shows what Wyeast yeasts 
correspond to what to what White Labs yeasts.  For example is White Labs WLP 
001, California Ale Yeast and Wyeast 1056 American Ale the same strain?  

I would like to start a small yeast bank and would rather not have 
duplicates.  While we are thinking about yeast, what would you consider to be 
essential strains to keep in a bank?

Joe Yoder


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:53:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Outside lines...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Paul Kensler wrote:

> My concern is that since the draft line outside the freezer and the
> pump itself would be at room temperature, the beer inside would spoil
> and turn sour.  I don't drink much, my normal habits would make me
> expect to have 2-3 pints a week, meaning that there wouldn't be a lot
> of volume being moved through the pump and lines.

Paul, refer back to that BT article that featured my draft system. I used
a cold plate in a cube 'fridge as my means of cooling, so the beer and
lines were all stored at cellar temperature. I had a few beers on line for
a duration of about three years with no detriment to the beers due to
infectives, and only light oxidation.

The key? Sanitation, sanitation, sanitation plus careful handling of the
fermenting/ed product. It isn't a function of the beer or the system you
serve through - it's a function of your ability to sanitize and prevent
the inclusion of air.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:53:06 -0800
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <don at steinfillers.com>
Subject: Urquell and green bottles

I would like to try a little grass roots effort to persuade Urquell to
switch to brown bottles for the U.S.   If they get enough emails on this
subject perhaps they will think about it.   Send them an email telling them
you would like Urquell in brown bottles.  Their email is:
marketing.Dpt at Pilsner-Urquell.com

Here is what I emailed them:

Anheuser-Busch has a TV commercial showing someone being revived with the
smell of a "imported" beer in a GREEN bottle.   The person was just knocked
out minutes earlier and is being revived with this smell as one would use
ammonia inhalers in a hospital.

The point I want to make is that many beer drinkers know that the green
bottles are inferior and allow light to damage the beer.   If one doesn't
know already that beer in green bottles can be skunky,  Anheuser-Busch is
making sure the public knows it now.

One retailer I know won't put Urquell on the shelve.  He keeps it in the box
until customers ask for it.  His customers know the light will damage the
beer.

Urquell is a good product - an excellent beer.  I would just like to be able
to buy it in a package that protects the contents.
I Would like to see you import Urquell in brown bottles

Don Van Valkenburg
brew at steinfillers.com
www.steinfillers.com


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:58:15 -0600
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Propane indoors

Independent of the real "dangers" involved with having propane cylinders 
inside your house, there are two additional things to keep in mind.

 - It may be a violation of local city codes/ordinances to store propane 
inside your house.

 - It may be a violation of your homeowner's insurance policy to store 


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:40:56 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Dangers of propane indoors

What is the danger of barbi grill propane tanks indoors? This system is
designed to vent propane into the air when the pressure is to high.
Which is very dangerous when done indoors.  I had this happen once.
Working for a guy in the jewelry business.  He didn't have the money for
proper gas system.  I was asked to take the propane tanks to be filled
in the dead of winter. So it took all of 3 min. to vent when we brought
the tank indoors.  I grabbed it and ran outside.  Ended up venting off
about 1 third of the tank so that I could take it back inside more or
less safely.  It was at that point that he becan to understand my point
about why we shouldn't use those tanks indoors.


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:13:11 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: A little propane can be a dangerous thing

Robert asks about the risks associated with a small canister of propane. 
I'm assuming he's talking about a disposable, not a 20lb tank.

Now I'm not going to discuss how likely a leak would be.  Can you smell the
mercaptan that's added for safety?  Not everyone can, it's something that
fatigues easily and definitely declines with age (yours, not the
propane's).  It's worth testing yourself next time you hook the propane up.
 Just let the unburned gas blow away before lighting anything [8o).

But supposing you did dump out the canister.  I'm too lazy to look it up,
so I'll assume that 1 L of liquid propane gives 1000 L of gas.  If I did my
mental arithmetic right, each litre of propane requires 5 litres oxygen, so
the maximum explosiveness will be obtained with about 25 litres air.  So if
the room adjoining the closet were 10 ft x 10 ft x 7.5 ft high (roughly 25
cubic metres), releasing that can of propane would be optimal for a really
decent explosion.

Any mistakes in the math above will be humbly acknowledged, but are far
more likely to be a matter of degree instead of orders of magnitude.  It's
tough owning stuff like that if you live in an apartment.  I store
inflammables on the front port since we live on the main floor and can
always escape through a window.  The back porch is someone else's fire
escape.

Sean


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:34:48 -0600
From: Bruce & Amber Carpenter <alaconn at arkansas.net>
Subject: Carbonation level

Greetings,

Opinions needed on the suggested carbonation level (high, medium, low) for
an English Pale Ale with FG of 1.012.

On a somewhat related note: Does force carbonated beer produce larger, and a
less "smooth" head? I tried an IPA at a micro recently and the carbonation
seemed almost soda fountain like. Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Bruce Carpenter


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---