---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Heating Sorces for Winter Brewing ("Dan Schultz")
  Re: Fermenting Temp. (J Daoust)
  Parallel Coils Or High Flow Rate ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Out Of The Closet? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  RE: Fermenting Temps (Rick Magnan)
  Thermometers ("Jimmy Hughes")
  Outdoor cookers (Nathan Kanous)
  freezing liquid malt (JPullum127)
  Liddil Flames ("Jim Bermingham")
  Re: Rice Beer And Other Matters (Jeff Renner)
  Water Filtration ("Dave Hinrichs")
  Outdoor cookers, yeast Etc. ("Green, Rob")
  Re: Freezing LME? (Jeff Renner)
  Brewpubs in Salt Lake? ("Russ Hobaugh")
  Wet Grinding ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: Fermenting Temp. (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re: PHD's and Unitanks ("Jim Busch")
  RE: Water Filtration (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Ballard Bitter (Scott Perfect)
  RE: Fermenting Temp. (Jonathan Peakall)
  re: hard cider won't clarify (Dick Dunn)
  re: High FG, mead (Dick Dunn)
  Yeast and Cellar Schedules ("Paul Smith")
  Wet mashing. cider clarification (Dave Burley)
  Planning trip to San Fransisco? (Clif Moore)
  glycogen, Wyeast puffiness, SG, mashout, heat efficiency, (Dave Burley)
  Durst turbo malt (Jeff Renner)
  mashout? ("FLEMING, JOE")
  Re. Maltcicles, Dave Burly ("Jeffry D Luck")
  wet milling/tempering (kathy/jim)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entries for the 18th Annual HOPS competition are due 3/24-4/2/00 
* See http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/ for more information

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:06:42 -0800
From: "Dan Schultz" <dschultz at primenet.com>
Subject: Heating Sorces for Winter Brewing

>From Todd:
>I would like to find a way to ferment during the mild winters
here in
>Seattle in my garage.  I need a way to warm things up a little
(maybe from
>40 to 65 or so).  Any thoughts?

William's Brewing sells a reptile heater pad that can be hooked
up to the newer types of temperature controllers that have a
heating circuit. Other HB shops sell a heater strap that warms to
a predetermined temp (I don't know what that exact temp is but no
controller is req'd).

I picked up a ceramic reptile heater bulb and built a base for it
from a ceramic light bulb base and a junction box. The ceramic
heater does not put out any light, its purely infra-red. This is
hooked up to my temp controller and can be viewed at
www.primenet.com/~dschultz/fridge.html .

Personally, next time I would go the reptile heater pad route.

Burp,
 -Dan






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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:14:42 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: Fermenting Temp.

John, I use a heating pad about 2/3 of the way under my glass carboy. 
In San Diego's East County it gets down in the 30's for a couple of
months out of the year and it seems to work great.  The flow of the wort
fermenting is impressive if you use glass carboys. With the heating pad
it all flows in one circular motion. And it hasn't burned down the
garage yet. 
Jerry Daoust
http://members.spree.com/health/dowquest/brewpage.html


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:12:16 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Parallel Coils Or High Flow Rate

David Houseman asks the question:
>Ah, but is the cooling performance due to the parallel coils or >the higher
>flow rate or both?

And a fair enough question too.
Dave, I have only recently moved from brewing 22 litre batches to 44 litre
quantities, mainly to keep the girls happy.
I used a single immersion coil for the smaller batches. My second immersion
coil I acquired some time ago and experimented with using it as a pre cooler
by sitting it in a bucket of ice. It was connected in series to the cooler
in the wort. It pre cooled the tap water but the result was no apparent time
saving at all. So it became largely unused except for the odd throw at me by
Jill when she couldn't find the "cat of nine tails" (which I had hidden!).

I got the idea of pushing the two together and running them in parallel when
I acquired my much loved 60 litre kettle (far too heavy for Jill to throw at
me - Dave Lamotte, I am eternally grateful). I think it fair to assume that
twice the wort to cool would require twice the surface area of the cooler to
achieve the same cooling times, all other things being equal. The parallel
operation should have provided a constant, connection in series would
theoretically be less efficient, unless the flow rate was changed.

Anyway, the first time I used the parallel set up my hoses etc were as per
of old and so too my flow rate. Result was the usual "wait forever" cooling
time.

It was the second time with the new fittings that I let the water fly and
down came the temp like a wombat down a gum tree - rapid.

No doubt in my mind what has made such a difference.
For what it's worth, the Baron Of The Southern Highlands has reported
similar results, and he cottoned on to it long before me. But he didn't tell
me until I told him what I was planning to do. You just can't trust these
New Zealanders, and now after a months leave I go back to work and find I am
working for the bastards!!
No more sheep jokes, and I'll have to learn to count to sex instead of six.
But this is another story yet.

Phil Yates
Newly Converted Lover Of New Zealanders





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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:39:16 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Out Of The Closet?

No sooner do I make mention of gay Mardi Gras when Bruce Garner presents a
post like this:

>Hello,

>I am looking for anyone who might want to share
>a room this weekend in St. Louis.
>I may not be able to go but hope to make it.

If I have opened a can of sick worms I truly apologise to the rest of the
HBD.

Sorry Bruce, but did you have to post this directly after me?
I'm being a bit cheeky and I know Pat is about to ask me to tone it down a
bit.

Cheers
Felippe
PS  I won't be in St Louis this weekend, sorry.



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:06:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Magnan <magnan at jimmy.harvard.edu>
Subject: RE: Fermenting Temps

John Todd Larson asks:
 
> I would like to find a way to ferment during the mild winters here in
> Seattle in my garage.  I need a way to warm things up a little (maybe from
> 40 to 65 or so).  Any thoughts?
 
Whats the saying?  When you get lemons, make lemonade?
 
I think a lot of people would like to have your problem, and I use 
the opportunity every winter to brew a series of lagers.  My garage 
stays about 45-50 which might be a bit warm for lagering but seems 
to work ok.  There is a wide range of styles - give it a go.
 
Theres a recipe on the Cats Meow from Bob Jones called Sam Atoms which 
is a knock-off of SA lager.  It uses pale malt and is a lot like making 
a pale ale with lager yeast, and can be great depending on your hops 
(and yeast).  And its always fun to try making a decent pils.

Speaking of the hops in this brew, my favorite made use of US Tettang
back about the time when there were a series of HBD posts the this
hop was really Fuggles or something.  Have there been any updates on
this?

Rick Magnan
Wellesley, MA


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:16:37 -0500
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: Thermometers

There was some discussion about thermometers some time back and I want to
inform as to what I have found.

Go to, http://www.ncinspections.com, scroll down and click on "Free after
rebate".

The site has an Acurite digital cooking thermometer with 3 foot lead for
$74.99 with a $70.00 rebate, making it only $4.99 plus shipping.

They also have other thermometers for sale.




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:28:06 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Outdoor cookers

Ken,
This may seem intuitive, but be careful with a cooker on your deck.  These 
baby's can get hot.  Hot cookers can scorch your deck.  Think twice, brew once.

I tried to use a small ceramic heater in my fermentation box to keep ales a 
little warmer for fermenting in the winter the other day.  I came to the 
basement 1/2 hour later to find the 2" extruded polystyrene foam insulation 
warped, stinking to high heaven and wondering if I narrowly averted a 
fire.  There is a thermostat on the heater, but it only reduced heat 
output, didn't shut it off.  Moral of the story?  Think twice.

I've had the concrete get very hot under both my Cajun Cooker and my Superb 
burner.  I'd never try either on a wooden deck.  Just my $0.02.  Hope this 
helps.
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:51:00 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: freezing liquid malt

good news for you troy, this is an easily solved problem. a local brewpub 
that uses liquid briess routinely freezes and then thaws extract, this causes 
no problems whatsoever, an even easier solution to prevent mold is to cover 
the extract with a thin layer of cheap vodka, this will prevent air contact  
needed for the mold to grow. as long as you have the container tighly sealed 
you shouldn't have a problem with evaporation. the vodka is basically 
tasteless and won't affect your beers taste even if a trace amount would 
survive the boil


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:16:57 -0600
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Liddil Flames

Jim, sounds like you have been rode hard and put up wet.  Woe to anyone who
might want to share information with the collective if they don't run it by
you first.  Yours must be the one and only true path.  Makes me want to grab
a bag of rice and head down under to look for ladies in some pool hall.

Relax a little and have a beer,

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:49:13 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Rice Beer And Other Matters

"Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> wrote

>The first rice beer I ever made was a Czech style pilsner...where I
>substituted just
>under a quarter of the barley in the grain bill with rice.

Like a CAP but with rice.  Rice and corn adjunct pilsners are indeed
popular with ladies and others who profess not to like full flavored beers.

>The second time I tried getting crafty by cooking the rice the day before
>brewing. But this turned into a congealed glob which gave me a dreadful time
>during lautering<snip>
>Third time round I switched to flaked rice and the process became infinitely
>easier. I wouldn't bother trying to cook the rice again.

If you were to add some malt (1/3 as much as rice) to this and mash for 20
minutes before cooking it, I think you'd have a very easiily handled cereal
mash that wouldn't congeal.  You might even have 1900 Budweiser.

>Six scantily
>dressed women leaning precariously over the billiard table

A lovely image.  SA gets an invite - where's mine?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:59:31 -0600
From: "Dave Hinrichs" <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: Water Filtration

Brian C. Jackson

Check at RV stores for water filters. These are the same cartridge filter
housings for home use with fittings for garden hoses. You could also easily
get the proper fitting at a local hardware store or home center, along with
the cartridge filter housing and filters.

I would recommend a NSF potable water hose post filter. Also to be found at
the above locations.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jaxson28 at aol.com
Subject: Water Filtration

Can anyone point me in the direction of a fast and efficient way to filter
my
tap water?
I brew outside mostly, but I have to fill my mash/lauter tun by carrying my
sterile 5 gal carboys from inside. Is there a way to hook-up a filter to my
outside hose so I can easily fill my mash tun when brewing. please help I'm
getting to healthy carrying those ! at #$ carboys!


 Dave



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:00:27 -0600
From: "Green, Rob" <Rob.Green1 at firstunion.com>
Subject: Outdoor cookers, yeast Etc.


In reply to Ken Miller's post.  The only suggestion I would have is to make
sure the wind screen/deflector is close enough to the cooking grate/trivet as
to prevent heat loss due to cross winds.  My cooker's wind screen is a full 3
inches below the cooking grate and in windy conditions I have a difficult time
keeping a good rolling boil going.  I attached some aluminum flashing with pop
rivets around the supports for the cooking grate and that helped.  I've seen
models on the market that have satisfactory screens, so when buying one keep
this in mind.  If someone gives you one, like I received mine, and there's a
gap between the wind screen and the cooking grate/trivet, visit your local
hardware store and pick up some aluminum flashing, it's cheap and you can bend
it easily, and you can cut it with a good pair of heavy duty shears or tin
snips.

Rob


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:12:57 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Freezing LME?

"Troy Hager" <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us> asked

>Has anyone ever tried freezing liquid malt extract?

I did back when I used it.  I think that it preserves freshness even if you
aren't having the molding problems described.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:18:50 -0500
From: "Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>
Subject: Brewpubs in Salt Lake?



I will be visiting the beer wasteland of Utah next week--Salt Lake City
 in particular.  Any suggestions on pubs to visit?  I will be staying downtown,
but will have a rental car.  Any HDB'ers going to be at Brainshare, and want to
get together for a brew???


Russ Hobaugh
Goob' Dob Brewery, Birdsboro PA




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:36:17 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Wet Grinding

Robert asks about "wet mashing" as practiced by New Belgium Brewery.  While
I haven't heard that term, there was a thread on HBD some time ago about
dampening malt prior crushing.  Water mists are applied to commerical grain
mills for just this reason.  Thehomebrew method presented wasn't to soak the
grain, but place the uncrushed malt in a bag with (I may not have the number
right but) approximately 1 tablespoon of water per pound of malt for an
hour.  I don't have the mail handy; it should be in the archives.  I did
that and it did result in less ground husk; it did what it set out to do.
However in my processes, I don't think it resulted in better beer because I
use a long recirculation time with a RIMS.  So I probably already filter out
more bits than many people do.  

David Houseman


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:33:40 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Fermenting Temp.

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:12:57 -0800
>From: "John Todd Larson" <larson at amazon.com>

>I would like to find a way to ferment during the mild winters here in
>Seattle in my garage.  I need a way to warm things up a little (maybe from
>40 to 65 or so).  Any thoughts?

First, keep it off the cement floor which could conduct a lot of the heat
away.

Then, for something quick and easy, you could place the fermenter into a
picnic cooler with perhaps another one upside down to form a closed
insulated box.  I have used a simple drugstore heating pad as the heater.
This would eliminate the light problem with a bulb and the bulb is very
fragile.  The heating pad can be wrapped around the fermenter and held on
with a bunge cord or two.  If the heating pad has several settings, this may
be all you need.  You could get fancy and install a thermostat and
controller.

For a thermostat, I have found Radio Shack puts on sale every year a nice
digital remote probe thermostat for around $10 - great price and very handy.
I use it in the fridge, on fermenters, and even to read the room
temperature.  It too is just taped or bunge corded to the fermenter.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:11:17 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: PHD's and Unitanks

Jim Liddil tried to make a funny but I have to comment on this:

<As I recall most of the guys who built the Mars lunar lander and
<dsigned the hubble were "PhD's". :-)

It was the Mars Polar Lander and Id be surprised if the engineers who 
designed/built/tested the suspect landing gear/breaking system were 
PhDs.  Also recall that Hubble had a defect in the production of the 
primary mirror which was due to incorrect alignment of the test rig, 
not a design flaw.  In fact the nature of the defect being a perfect 
"imperfection" allowed NASA to remedy the situation and return Hubble 
to the world class observatory that it is today.   Why these events 
draw such attention while the DoD blows up rockets worth 2 Billion+
and thats on page 14 of the daily news is always a mystery to me.

Troy asks about unitank conditioning.... one thing you didnt mention 
is does your tank hold pressure?  I sure hope so, cause thats a key 
factor in my mind of why a uni is so handy.  (you can even filter 
right out of the uni into kegs if it holds pressure).

<When do you pull off the trub? When do you pull off the yeast? You

Trub can be blown down on days 1/2 of primary fermentation, or 
allowed to combine with the initial yeast dropping out and blown down 
later.  I usually do both, blow down on day 1 to get hop matter/trub 
off the bottom and then wait till I get some flocculation to reduce 
yeast load.  Most of the yeast load is dropped after the temp is 
reduced.

< can't see the krausen in a unitank so do you just go by 
<bubbling activity? 

You can but its much more elegant to do a forced fast ferment of your 
wort to obtain the optimal terminal gravity.  Then you monitor the SG 
via the zwickle port, and spund the tank to develop natural pressure 
when you are within .5-1.5P of terminal.  Once the tank is spund, 
and I get 5-8 psi on my gauge then I start the 2-5F drop per 
day temp reduction.  You can also let the pressure develop to closer 
to 1 Bar and then reduce the temp, since the pressure will then drop 
according to PV=nRT, and pressure goes into solution at colder temps.
A big part of this game to me is getting as much CO2 from the ferment 
as possible.

< Do you let the beer sit and condition before 
<taking it down to 32F or so? Why have I heard 32F?

By ramping down no more than 5F per day you are essentially allowing 
the yeast to slow down and finish while flocc'ing out.  
Alternatively, assuming the beer is at your desired characteristics 
you can crash cool to drop yeast and proteins.  But if you crash cool 
you want to be at terminal already.

< Do you control FG in this way?

If you want residual sugars above the terminal gravity then yes you 
can crash cool to try to kill the yeast before it reaches terminal.  
There are very few cases where you need to do this IMO.  I would 
suggest adjusting the recipe and mashing program to control real 
degree of fermentation and not rely on crash cooling.  I personally 
prefer well attenuated beers where the recipe fixes the body, 
mouthfeel and residual sugars.

<How long do you hold it 
<at this very cold temp before transferring it to the bright beer 
<tanks or kegs?

Long enough to drop out the yeast and proteins that will flocc out 
with temp.  Depending on strain this could be days or a few weeks.
Nice thing about a uni is you dont care, the yeast and trub are gone 
and assuming its sanitary your beer is in a container like a keg so 
its not deteriorating esp at low temps.  So go back to that trusty 
zwickle every few days and using the pig tail to reduce the pressure 
drop (so you can pour a glass of beer and not foam), do the difficult 
task of taste testing the beer.  You will easily be able to determine 
when the beer turns the corner and is ready.  Keep looking, smelling 
and tasting, and use the hydrometer too.  For a datapoint most 
HopDevil is fermented in a few days and allowed 2-3 weeks cold 
conditioning time prior to filtration.  While ale can be pushed 
through in as little as 6-8 days I find the results much better at 
21-28 days cycle time.

<Does the beer then need to condition more in the BB 
<tanks at serving temps?

Not if conditioned in the uni and then filtered into the Brite tank.

Prost!

Jim Busch


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:09:56 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Water Filtration

>From: Jaxson28 at aol.com

>Is there a way to hook-up a filter to my outside hose so I can easily fill
my mash tun when brewing

Just get a 10 inch filter housing and charcoal cartridge for it.  You can
find the housing that has standard threaded NPT threads for input and
output.  Make up a hose coupling to the NPT threads for the input side and
connect to the end of your hose.  For the output side, get a hose barb
fitting to NPT, and you can discharge directly into the HLT, or you can put
a bit of vinyl tubing onto the hose barb.

Hint: You can get everything you need at Sears, and a real hardware store.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:36:23 -0800
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: Ballard Bitter

Chris is seeking info about Ballard Bitter.

>From the brewery fact sheet (several years old):
2-row Klages (just read this as 2-row pale)
40 L caramel       (I would guess about 10%)
    color described as "brass"
OG 1.0445
Eroica, Willamette, and Cascade  (Guess 40 IBU?)
"Top Fermenting English" yeast, same listed for ESB
   Wyeast 1968 would be my choice.

Scott Perfect
Livermore, CA



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:42:34 -0800
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Fermenting Temp.

Howdy all,

John wrote:

>>I would like to find a way to ferment during the mild winters here in
Seattle in my garage.  I need a way to warm things up a little (maybe
from
40 to 65 or so).  Any thoughts?

I use a high quality aquarium heater. I know some regard it as a
sanitation issue, but I bleach soak overnight between uses, rinse, and
then idophor. It does a terrific job of maintaining 60 degrees fer me.
And I live in a '70's hippie shack out in the woods, where insulation is
considered a cuss word, so my house has dramatic temp changes.

>>My first idea is some type of warming box I could put my carboy in
with a
standard temp controller like most people use to lager in their fridge
and a
lightbulb as a heat source.  Anybody have any experience with such a
device?
I have limited electrical skills (and don't want to burn my house down),
but
can handle basic carpentry.  TIA.

I made one of those once. It took a fan to keep the temp even, and took
a while to achieve the desired temp. It was kinda bulky, and when I
moved, I left it behind. I am considering making one out of a chest
freezer that I purchased, but also have thoughts of lagering in it.
Instead of lights in the one I made, I used "golden rods", small tube
shaped heaters you (used to?)  get to keep a closet from mildewing, as I
worried about the effect of light on the beer. Overall, I wouldn't
bother with a plywood box, because on can get old chest freezers so
cheap, and of course it will cool in summer as well. And I bet you
couldn't build a box and insulate it for much less than you could get a
chest freezer for.

Overall though, I love the aquarium heater. Easy and simple. Of course,
if you live in an area of high temperatures, it doesn't help like a
insulated box would. Me, I just stick beer under the house in summer.
Right next to where my dog hangs out on hot days!

Jonathan Peakall











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Date: 21 Mar 00 09:37:35 MST (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: hard cider won't clarify

"Andrew Krein" <akrein62 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've had 5 gallons of apple cider in a glass carboy for about
> 3 weeks now and it doesn't show much sign of clearing...

3 weeks isn't a particularly long time.  What was the OG?  What's the
current SG?

>...The
> cider was fresh pressed and then frozen with no preservatives
> or pasturization...

Depending on the pressing techniques (grinding technique, whether a press
bag was used), you may have a whole lot of pulp in the cider, enough that
it's just not going to want to settle nicely.  If there's a fair layer of
sediment now, try racking and wait at least a week to see if it starts to
fall clear.

> Can something like bentonite or isenglass be used to help
> clarify?...

Fining will work (but don't use gelatin), although it will strip out some
color and flavor.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Simpler is better.


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Date: 21 Mar 00 10:01:48 MST (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: High FG, mead

A while back, Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> wrote:

> Dick Dunn says:
> 
> "Realize that meads are no where near as susceptible to contamination
> as beers"
> 
> I'd like a further explanation of that, please as I can't help but
> feel that unpasteurized, diluted honey would have scads ( that's
>  >10^ 6/ml) of bio-contaminants - far more than a boiled wort.

I wouldn't advise using diluted, otherwise-untreated honey for a mead must
(although I know mead-makers who do so successfully).  What I really meant
was that mead musts do seem to survive OK with long start-lag times, only
ordinary care in sanitation, etc.  Contaminated meads are quite rare, while
contaminated beers are unfortunately common among novices or even
experienced brewers whose care slips.

As to *why*--sorry, Dave, I don't know!  I wish I did.  I'm speaking from
experience, not theory.  The experience is broad enough to make me believe
it...but that's not very satisfying when one wants to know "WHY?!"  It
would be cool if somebody did a handful of studies--like cell counts on
the Bad Guys on an untreated mead must, a heated must, a sulfited must...
and then checked these meads several times during fermentation.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Simpler is better.


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:33:20 -0600
From: "Paul Smith" <pksmith_morin at msn.com>
Subject: Yeast and Cellar Schedules

Troy asks for some "general" information on cellar scheduling.

Troy, my short answer is that I don't think it is possible to give any truly
useful general information, because the operating environment for a brewery's
yeast is so distinct.  Not only does each strain have its own set of
characteristics, but each strain within each brewery will have a unique
character and associated behavior, as you said.

That being said, I can tell you what we typically did at Goose Island (micro,
not brewpub) where I worked.

For Ale:

Day 1-3: ferment at 67.
Day  4-5: continue at 67; dump yeast (harvest "second layer") on day 5.
Day 6-7: continue at 67.
Day 8: crash to 29, if diacetyl test confirms reduction.
Day 9: dump yeast
Day 9-14: crash; filter & transfer on day 14.

Dry-Hopping schedules:

Day 1-3: ferment at 67
Day  4-5: continue at 67; dump yeast on day 5.
Day 6: Add dry hops (slurry) & steep/condition to day 8.
Day 7: continue at 67.
Day 8: crash to 29, provided diacetyl test is passed.  For lighter nose beers
do not crash until day 9,  to ensure that diacetyl is removed.
Day 9: dump (hops, yeast & trub)
Day 9-14: continue at 29; filter & transfer on day 14.

All ales are sampled for gravity on days 1, 3, 7, and 9.

The diacetyl test consists of drawing a sample and warming it to low tea
temperature, then nosing it for butter or butterscotch aroma.

Keep in mind that this yeast is a very finicky strain, and historically it
would drop out very easily (and die almost immediately) if it was messed with
too early or too much.

Other breweries may do mini-dumps, for instance, on days 2-5 (or, as in
England, as we saw, they skim every 4 hours on krausen formation).

****

Robert Uhl posts a great piece of info on malt conditioning ("wet mashing").
I have seen it described in Kunze and know of its use at larger breweries,
esp. German breweries.  Its purpose, as Robert aptly intuits, is to allow for
a finer grind than normal as the intact husk provides for a greater
filtration, and thus yield is increased.

As a homebrewer, I gave a thought to spraying down my malt prior to crushing,
then running a finer crush on husk separation, but have never bothered.  My
yield is where I want it already.

I don't expect that I will do ever do it commercially (mostly because I do not
believe the extra expense for a 4-6 roll mill is worth it at 2 -15K bbls
annually, and a "two" or "three" pass milling system is endemic to the wet
conditioning process).

Cheers,

Paul







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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:40:08 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wet mashing. cider clarification

Brewsters:

Robert Uhl toured the New Belgium Brewery and the tour girl told him they
use a process called "wet mashing" in which the malt is wetted down or even
soaked before crushing. Robert asks if this is a new process and if we can
try it as homebrewers.

The nice thing about homebrewing is that we can try anything!  But this
method of wetting the malt before crushing called "tempering" the malt is
not a new one. Or maybe the tour guide meant "wet milling" instead of wet
mashing ( they almost sound alike don't they? And the grain does get sort
of mashed in the non-brewing sense). This is a standard method in many
breweries. The difference between tempering and wet milling is the amount
of water and the design of the mill. 

If you want to try tempering, just stir in well a cup or two of water to
the dry malt and allow it to stand covered with a plastic sheet or lid  for
an hour or so before you crush it. The malt should not look wet and should
still be free flowing This will make the husks less fragile and keep the
dust down a little.

I would not recommend wet milling if you use an electricity powered crusher
or it may be a shocking experience. The mess of the cleanup in any event is
not worth it, I'll bet, even if your mill could take it. If you just want
to see, try soaking some malt in cold water overnight and milling it
through a food processor or a blender. I did it this way in the dark ages
of homebrewing before I had a home mill and when there were no HB stores,
and no mill suppliers and I got my malt as a gift from a local maltster, 
etc. It is a PITA, but it works, sort of. I have used this method for
cooked barley successfully. A coffee mill worked better on dry malt. I
burned several of those up, and eventually I converted the mill parts
 ( not unlike a Corona mill)  to run with my drill motor.  And then,
happily,  I got a real roller mill after several excursions into trying to
make a noodle maker work.

If you want whole husks and excellent lautering, I suggest you try the
roller mill and the double crush method I have outlined in the archives. It
produces excellent lautering results and high efficiency to boot.
- -------------------------------------------
Andy Krein asks for advice on clarifying his cider.  Try some pectic enzyme
on a small portion first. Likely this is the problem. If not, then move on
to other clarifying agents also on small test portions of your cider until
you get it right.  In a mild flavored beverage like cider, additions of
clarifying agents can affect the flavor ( especially things which remove
tannin- like gelatin).
- -------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:52:18 -0900
From: Clif Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: Planning trip to San Fransisco?

John is Planning trip to San Fransisco and asked
where to go, so:

I am just back from a few days in San Fransisco.
My objective was to efficiently spend my free time
exploring the micro brew and brew pub landscape.
It is a surprisingly target rich environment and I could
have spent months in first level exploration.

The most fervent recommendation I can make is for the
Toronado Bar.  This fine hole in the wall is a
celebration of fine beer on tap.  I have never seen
so many taps behind one bar.  They are lined up
and stowed away in every part or the bar.  They
offer micro brews and Belgian ales.  This gives
an indication of the priority.  The best beer the
world has to offer combined with the offerings
of the local environment.  They are noted for
keeping their beer fresh and their lines clean and
offering good value for the beer drinking enthusiast.

The Toranado is on Height at Filmore and is easy
to get to on many west bound busses from
Market Street.  Get off at Filmore and it is on the
south side of Height.  You owe it to yourself to
put this one on the short list.

I did not have any bad experiences with the few brew pubs
I had time to visited, and I will place them in the order
that I would return to them in.

Twenty Tank Brewery and Pub
316 11th St.
West on Market to 11th then south a few blocks.
Rough cut decor and many fine brews.

Magnolia Pub and Brewery
1398 Height St at Masonic
The same bus that got you to the Toranodo will take
you out to the 60s Meca of the Height - Ashbury
district.  The Magnolia is a nice upscale atmosphere with
good beer and good food.

Thirsty Bear Brewery and Pub
661 Howard St.
A few blocks south of Market near the financial district.
There is nothing wrong with the open floor plan upscale
brew pub style of eatery.  That is if they pay attention to
the brewery part of the operation.  They offer a variety of
clean drinking beers with the Golden Vanilla standing out
as making me question my personal feelings against
flavor additives in beer.  The addition of vanilla into a summer
pale or wheat is a definite area for investigation.

You will enjoy yourself.

Clifton Moore



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:47:57 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: glycogen, Wyeast puffiness, SG, mashout, heat efficiency,

Brewsters:

Del Lansing's response of why to pitch a Wyeast packet to a starter being
glycogen content doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I would think,
since you are going to pitch this to an oxygenated starter, the more viable
yeast bodies the better and the puffier the packet, the more CO2 ergo the
more yeast growth one would have. Is this not correct?

I wonder if there is a set of data which demonstrates the difference of
pitching a Wyeast package to a starter when the packet is at 1" versus when
it is fully expanded? Although Lynne O'Connor apparently  set up this
experiment, I didn't see the comparative results in the presentation, just
the statement to pitch at 1"  Did I miss the data somehow? Or viable yeast
populations versus puffiness?  I always assumed the 1" Wyeast
recommendation was a minimum not an optimum.

Also in Del's dissertation, he comments that 1 lb per gallon of dextrose
has an SG of 1.036 and sucrose an SG of 1.044. And blames it on the "chain
length" of the sugar. Sucrose is like two dextroses
 ( actually glucose and fructose)  hooked together and specific gravity is
not a colligative property when I last looked.  I am at a loss to explain
these data ( were they from the same quality reference and under the same
conditions?) , but if true,  I assume it has something to do with hydrogen
bonding affecting density as in alcohol/water solutions. Anyone have a
reference?

As far as mashout temperature, Eric Warner and Kunze believe heating to
169F or so is done to speed up the alpha amylase activity ( and not to
destroy the alpha amylase specifically)  to chew up any remaining starch (
and form  dextrins)  which is released on the heatup. This prevents starch
cloudiness ( which Kunze calls a "blue brew" due to the iodine test).

Beta amylase does last longer in a mash than in laboratory glass but
although more active, it is pretty much denatured ( permanently
inactivated)  in about  15 - 30 minutes at 158F even under the best of
circumstances. Allowing the mash temperature to fall "into the beta range"
will not cause any more beta amylase activity as Del seems to be implying.
Of course, the mashout at 169 -170F guarantees the disappearance of the
beta amyalse and therefore prevents the further reduction of dextrins to
fermentable sugars thus stabilizing the dextrin content and the attenuation
limit of the wort ( as Del suggests) , with a minor exception that alpha
amylase can produce some small percentage of these fermentable sugars.

Kunze says "mashing for a long time at 162-167F ( 72 to 75C),  a
dextrin-rich beer with  a low attenuation limit is obtained."  This leads
me to believe that even with a mashout at 169F, there is still some alpha
amylase activity around until the boil, but that it is inconsequential
without starch, since the beta is destroyed at these high temperatures.

The lower viscosity of the higher temperature mashout does speed up the
lauter, especially in difficult glucanaceous mashes like rye and wheat
beer. Remember also about a third to a half of  the wort has to diffuse out
of the capillaries of the grain and extraction efficiency is therefore
sensitive to viscosity and therefore temperature.  Under normal
circumstances the mashout is also a guarantee of starch haze free beer.

I see no rationale for Del's contention that heating to a higher
temperature in the mashout somehow saves on heating expense.  In the
mashout, you have to heat both the grain and the wort. 

Not exceeding 170F in the mashout to avoid tannin extraction, as Del
contends,  is a new one to me, as tannin extraction is pH dependent, less
soluble at lower pH, and the higher temperature wort will have  a lower pH.
It may be true that the tannins will be more ionized at the high T, which
COULD increase solubility, but I know of no data which suggests that the
temperature difference of 169 to 171F or whatever is significant to tannin
solubility. It is true that decoction worts contain more tannins than
infusion mashed worts, but they have been boiled. Del, do you have a
reference to this?

What is important , is that during the sparging that the pH of the sparging
liquor be kept about 5.8 or lower to minimize tannin extraction. This pH
minimizes the ionization of the tannins ( which are weak acids) and
therfore the solubility of the tannins. Based on this information, I assume
the pH of the wort in the mash, being in the ball park of 5.2 or so,  would
minimize the tannin solubility even at 170F which is also the sparge
temperature.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:10:42 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Durst turbo malt

Brewers

I've just discovered that GW Kent is importing a German Durst malt called
"Turbo-malt," an overmodified pilsner malt  (they also make Vienna and
Munich turbo) for quick conversion in the mash tun.  It was evidently
developed for a brewery in Germany, I which I think brewed only two bock
beers, and other German brewers are also using it.  Apparently brewers can
save a great deal of time by getting complete conversion in something along
the lines of 15-20 minutes.  They are selling a bit of it here in the US to
micro brewers.

I remember George Fix posting to HBD sometime ago concern that increases in
modification of continental malts was leaading to "dull" beers.  I've asked
his thoughts on this.

Here are relevant analysis data for two recent lots:

	Target	Regular	"Turbo"
Moisture	<4.5%	4.3	4.5
Extr. dry	>81.0%	82.5	83.7
Extr. diff	1.0-1.8	1.7	1.3
Wort color	3.0-4.0	3.3EBC	3.5
Boiled color5.0-6.0	5.4EBC	6.0
Protein%	<11.5	10.6	10.5
Sol. N dry	.670-.830	0.747	0.850
Kolbach	42.0-46.0	44.2	50.7
Hartnong	>40.0	41.4	48.9
pH wort	5.6-6.0	5.70	5.69
Viscosity	<1.55	1.51	1.46
Friability	>78.0	80.0	83.0
Betaglucan	<250mg/l	156	125
Diastatic 	>250WK	305.0	315.0
Final atten	>80.00%	82.25	84.29


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:06:00 -0500
From: "FLEMING, JOE" <JOE.FLEMING at spcorp.com>
Subject: mashout?

        I have humbly questioned the value of the mashout in the past.  
     I have questions about two of Del's pro mashout reasons:
     
     >The primary reason would be to denature the enzyme system and fix
     >the Real Degree of Fermentation where you want it.
     
     Might this effect be overstated, especially if you sparge at 
     mashout temps & recirculate?  If its not overstated then I would 
     agree (depending on grain bill & style brewed)!
     
     >Secondly: mash out, for some as yet undefined reason,
     >enhances head retention. Possibilities are suggested of the 
     >formation of glyco-protein complexes that are foam positive.
     
     I've not heard this before.  Can anyone else speak to this 
     argument?  I'm not doubting it -- skipping mashout may be the 
     reason why, by rote, I dump an extra 1/4 # of wheat in each of my 
     brews for head retention!
     
        Another reason I've heard is to break down dextrins and make the 
     lauter run more smoothly.  Since I mash and lauter in the same tun 
     and don't experience stuck lauter problems (grain bed sets once and 
     remains undisturbed) I can't really speak to practical issues 
     involved with this.
        I would suspect that most of the non-direct-fired tun mashers 
     (awkward phrase of the Digest award) skip mashout.
     
     Joe


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Date: 21 Mar 2000 17:08:35 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Re. Maltcicles, Dave Burly

Troy asks:

>Has anyone ever tried freezing liquid malt extract? 

I have a supplier who freezes his LME in the summer months, 
especially the lighter stuff.  He sells it sealed in plastic bags, bulk
style.  I've used this often (thaw it first), and noticed no taste 
difference.

Dave
Burly - 
It's good
to have
your 
posts 
looking
a little
more
readable
these 
days.
Thanks.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT  USA




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:03:21 -0400
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: wet milling/tempering

Rober Uhl writes....

Anyway, they have an interesting new technique which 
I thought that I would share with you all.  It's called, 
I believe, `wet mashing' (yes, I know that _all_ mashing 
is wet; I din't invent the name).  What it
involves is `mashing' the _uncracked_ grains in a seperate 
mash tun for a lenght of time, then grinding them and 
mashing them for good.  The idea is  apparently that the 
post-soak grinding process yields a more intact husk
which in turn leads to better sparging.  This, at least, 
was the explanation the girl giving the tour gave us.

  I imagine that what happens is that the cracking process 
becomes more of a squeezong process and the husk simply 
ruptures at one point, squeezing out the kernel without 
shredding to pieces.  Just a guess, though.

Has anyone heard of this?  Is it worth attempting on a 
homebrewing scale?

Jim Booth answers....

Every year or so I write on HBD touting the virtues of  
conditioning of malt before milling. Wheat millers temper 
the bran to strengthen the bran and prevent little bits 
of bran from getting in the flour.

I recommend the addition of 2 tbls of water per pound of 
malt a half hour or so before milling, stirring the grain 
and covering the container to let it set.  Some brewers 
add water at the conveyer to the roller mill hopper and 
wet mill the malt.  This also reduces dust and the chance 
of dust explosions (and reduces insurance rates).

In my tests of the milling of conditioned/tempered malt 
vs dry malt, I found much larger flakes of bran above 
the test sieve and substantially more fines passing 
through.  The milling effort was less and dust less 
compared with  dry malt.

When 4 tbs/# were used, the grain mushed and was very 
difficult to pass through my Corona mill.  Sorry but 
I don't have a big budget roller mill to run the tests 
on, but with the tempering, I feel the cheap Corona 
give a great grind (heresy, I know). 

How about one of the gurus of HBD running a test on 
their high faluting roller mills and reporting? 
Maybe Jack S. could put aside his curds and whey
and give it a try?  Past invites for such a test 
have have not gotten comments. 

cheers,  jim booth


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