---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Historic Brewers ("NATHAN T Moore")
  RE: Primetabs (dstedman)
  Celis/Belgian Wit spices ("St. Patrick's")
  Yeast Q's- Jim Wallace_ Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")
  Yeast Q's- Alan Meeker- Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")
  pump for brewing (Jaxson28)
  RE: But The Party Ends For Rick ("Pat Babcock")
  RE: Iodophor + heating, cooling and water stuff ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Crash cooling (Richard Johnson)
  RE: RE: Iodophor + heating, cooling and water stuff ("Pat Babcock")
  more yeast questions for Dr. Cone (Marc Sedam)
  Milwaukee restaurants (Mark Kellums)
  First Wort hopping ("Peter gunczy")
  Priming Mag. Drive Pumps ("S. Wesley")
  attenuation ("Crossno, Glyn")
  RE:Pump Problems ("Donald D. Lake")
  HDMS (Dave Burley)
  Banned in Burradoo (Rick Magnan)
  Pumps and Pumping ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re: Acidifying Sparge Water (Jim)
  pumps (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  6th Boneyard Brew-Off, Champaign IL (Joel Plutchak)
  Re: pump questions (Paul Shick)
  RE:  screw-on filters ("Dave Hinrichs")
  fishing ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Brita and screw-on filters ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Thanks Dr.Cone (Rick)
  Questions for Dr. Cone ("Michael Rose")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:57:10 -0600
From: "NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US>
Subject: Historic Brewers

I have been meaning to throw this blatant (however, not
commercial) advertisement out to the hbd for a while now.
I just wanted everyone to know about the SCA Brew Historic
 Brewing Page.  Although this webpage is designed for the SCA 
community, I feel there is a lot of good information that many of
you might find interesting.  Included are a comprehensive Library
of historic and modern brewing articles and a growing section on 
cultures and customs, the Great Mead Yeast Survey, an interesting 
Links page for historic brewers, and several other features, including 
many of interest to the SCA brewer (the SCA Brew list, calendar of 
events, a guild listing, competition and documentation guidance,
etc.)  Oh yes, and a great poem on the index page from 1637.
Hope you enjoy, and sorry for the intrusion.

Nathan Moore




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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:11:24 -0500
From: dstedman at csc.com
Subject: RE: Primetabs



Tim Burkhart writes:

>How about one with Charlie Papazian's head on it?

Gosh. I knew that he wasn't the most popular person
around the HBD, but this seems kind of extreme. ;-)

Dan Stedman
Brewing this weekend in Minnetonka, MN




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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:28:09 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Celis/Belgian Wit spices

The latest issue of Zymurgy contains a nice article about Celis by Greg
Kitsock.  I've delayed responding about the Celis spices for a couple of
weeks due to the real news about Celis but it seems appropriate now.

There is no one named Celis employed at Celis brewery.  Pierre is back in
Belgium.  Peter and Christine will remain in US.  I have no insight as to
the long term future of the brewery.
In the short term, they will continue to produce all the beers as well as
more contract brewing.

With regards to the spices, first  a correction. I incorrectly stated they
do not use curacao orange peel.  In fact, curacao is the only orange peel
ever used at Celis.  (I also carry sweet Mexican orange peel and I'm
sure that is what Pierre saw at the shop and brought to my attention.) I
won't attempt to explain the me-too post of the gentleman from Minnesota in
which he also
knew it wasn't curacao and then stated it was two other orange peels.

By the way, the herb in the Dubel is quasia.
I could get it but don't anticipate stocking it. Little bit goes a long way.
Dubel uses bittering hops only, Northern Brewer at 20 - 26 ibu.

As I've mentioned before on the digest, no early addition hops in the White
(13-15 ibu) and no lactic fermentation, just lactic acid.

I have the coriander used by Celis now. Physically, it is very small, about
1/4 the diameter of the seeds I have been selling.  Additionally, and most
importantly, the flavor is remarkably different.  It tastes of oranges and
pepper whereas the previous coriander has a celery flavor.

The article states Celis gets spices from California.  The gentleman from
Minnesota told the digest Celis gets coriander and orange peel from Memphis.

My apologies to those who interpreted the original post as patronizing. I
certainly didn't mean to offend anyone choice of ingredients or recipe.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Drive
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com







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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:25:21 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Yeast Q's- Jim Wallace_ Dr. Cone

From: "Jim Wallace" <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Yeast quest for Dr. Cone
Dr Cone:
I have several questions on culturing and propogating yeast from specific
brewers.
1) do you feel that it is possible to capture the character yeast and
culture effectivly from a fresh bottle of beer (Chimay, DeDole,
Westvletern,
Rochforte, etc)?
2) In the case of several of the belgian beers where multi strains are
used,
can this multi character be preserved in simple culturing (ie simply
streaking to a plate and taking samples from several colonies)
3)any comments on pros and cons of yeast head skimming relating to a)total
fermentation process and b)changes in character of future fermentations
when
recycling this yeast
4) any comments on the dry yeast available from Belgium/France/GB
  ________________________________
          Jim Wallace

Jim,
The one thing that I enjoy about working with home wine and beer makers is
their adventuresome spirit and willingness to
experiment, with the chance of occasionally losing a batch of beer or
wine. Some mishaps and mistakes are still not too bad to drink. My
suggestion is that you give it a try.  You have nothing to lose, except
perhaps a small trial batch, and you may find a strain that is just what
you are looking for.  Having said that let me make the following comments:

Question 1). It depends on how old the beer is. If it is too old the yeast
may all be dead or will have lost some of their better fermentation
characteristics. The only way that you will know is to try. Some beers are
pasteurized by the brewery after the secondary fermentation to prevent the
possibility of spoilage while on the shelf, so all will be dead.  Some
breweries filter the beer and add a bottom fermenting yeast plus a little
fresh wort for the secondary fermentation in the bottle. The main
fermenting yeast does not necessarily settle or flocculate well, so it is
removed and a fresh bottom yeast that flocculates well is added.  The yeast
that you will find in most wheat beer is not the main fermenting yeast.
Some breweries will remove most of the yeast leaving about 0.5-1.0 X
10/6th. yeast /ml. and bottle just before all of the sugar has been
consumed allowing the final fermentation to take place in the bottle.  So
you take your chances.

Question 2). It is much more difficult than you might think to duplicate
flora profile by isolating pure cultures from the mixture and trying to
recombine them in the correct ratio. Most beer yeast colonies look similar
when grown on a malt or YM agar.  Each colony will test the same in the
API sugar profile test.  Each colony will look alike under the microscope
or too similar to separate the strains. The only way to identify the
different strains is by DNA profile.  The mixture is quite dynamic and most
attempts to achieve the same ratio in the strain population will alter the
population and therefore the taste of the final beer. It could turn out to
be quite a research project.

My guru on this subject, Dr. Tobias Fishborn,  suggests that if you wish to
use the yeast from Belgium beer then it is best to use the yeast directly
from the bottle.  Just inoculate it into a sterile wort and begin a
starter.  There is no guarantee that the population will grow up at the
same ratio as at the original brewery and produce the same flavor profile,
but it is your best bet and you will probably produce a very good beer.

Question 3)  Early skimming can have positive effects on later fermentation
performance.  You also remove protein and hop compounds which can cause
harsh bitterness which will be good for the original batch but will be
added back with the repitched yeast unless you do a good job of  washing
the yeast.

Question 4) I have no comments on the yeast that you mentioned other than
most companies that produce beer yeast in the dry form have dramatically
improved the quality of their products in recent years and you should be
comfortable in evaluating any of them.

I can speak personally for the dramatic improvement in the Dan Star Ale
strains of beer yeast:  Nottingham, Windsor, Manchester, London and soon a
Lager yeast.

Clayton Cone


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:45:49 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Yeast Q's- Alan Meeker- Dr. Cone

From: Alan Meeker [mailto:ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:44 AM
To: brewer at isunet.net
Subject: Clayton Cone question - 2

In general, at what level (what yeast density) would you consider a wort to
be "underpitched?"  To simplify let's assume that it is an all-grain wort
with plenty of nutrients such as FAN and that it has been well-aerated and
is not high gravity. On the flip side - at what level would you consider a
beer to be "overpitched?"  There have been a few comments lately to the
effect that this is undesirable. In your opinion, how valid is the evidence
for negative effects of under/over pitching?
Thanks
Alan Meeker



Alan,
There is no single pitching rate number that below is under pitching and
above is overpitching as you already know.

The pitching rate depends on the physiological condition or health of the
yeast.  Fresh yeast directly from a propagation system is very active and
the pitching rate can be as low as 5 X 10/6th. cells / ml. wort.

The longer the yeast is in storage and the more times the yeast has been
pitched the lower is the activity and the higher should be the pitching
rate.  It can take a pitching rate as high as 15 - 20 X 10/6th./ ml. wort
to do the job in the same length of time.

Caveats:
 All things being equal, seeding/pitching rate effects fermentation time.

Low seeding/pitching rates takes more generation cycles for the yeast to
reach the stationary phase and a longer over all fermentation time.  This
allows time for spoilage organisms.  Also more generation time can
increase ester production, which can be good or bad according to the beer
makers taste.

High seeding/pitching rates speeds up fermentation time and give better
insurance that any spoilage organisms will be overwhelmed,  but has the
potential of bringing over off flavors, higher ester and organic acids and
excessive yeasty taste if the yeast is not very healthy.  Frequent
introduction of a fresh culture is recommended.

There is a trend towards increasing the pitching rate as long as the yeast
is healthy.

A few added comments:

Portions of some strains of beer yeast loose their ability to ferment
maltotriose under certain conditions requiring higher pitching rates to do
the same job.  Frequent introduction of a fresh culture is recommended.

Pitching rate depends on beer style. Dark worts have less amino acids
available for the yeast and do not have an optimum sugar composition.  Both
increase in pitching rate and added yeast nutrients are required.  The
higher the gravity the higher is the osmotic pressure and the need for
increased pitching rate.

Pitching rates depend on the fermentation temperature.  Lager beer ferments
at low temperatures and need 15-20 X 10/6th./ ml.

Beer yeast in the Active Dry form minimizes the concern  regarding
repitching rates. With a fresh economical packet of yeast for each batch,
you can quickly determine the exact amount of yeast that you require for
your style of beer and the length of time that you desire for the
fermentation to be completed.

Clayton Cone


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:58:00 EDT
From: Jaxson28 at aol.com
Subject: pump for brewing

Can anyone point the way to a fairly inexpensive pume that I can use to pump 
my post -boiled wort -thru my heat exchanger and into my carboys. It has to 
meet the requirements of taking temps close to 212 F. I've had no help with 
the Grainger folks . Can anyone help? Perferably stainless or a non-reative 
substance that will not contaminate my beer. Feel free to e-mail me  at  
Jaxson28 at aol.com.


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:35:22 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <babcockp at mediaone.net>
Subject: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Phil, the Reigning Baron of Buradoo sez...


> have a better solution for you but one
> possibility is to ferment in a plastic
> fermenter with a tap at bottom (spigot
> - I believe is the Yankee term). This
> removes the necessity for syphoning
> completely. It is a simple matter to
> gravity feed via plastic tubing for all
> racking purposes.

Um, but wouldn't drawing all the trub from the bottom (where the "spigot"
is) kind of make racking a moot point? I mean, not that I'd question your
judgement oh great baron, but, wouldn't it? Sorta? Maybe???

I humbly bow and leave your presence...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:15:29
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: RE: Iodophor + heating, cooling and water stuff

Robert Arguello posted in #3301: 

>ON A SIDE NOTE: I am often asked if storing a working solution of iodophor
>in corny kegs will extend its life, or if using distilled water would help.
>The answer is sure..to some degree, but just how cheap are we? It only
>costs a few cents to mix up a 5 gallon batch of iodophor. Who cares if we
>can get an extra day or two out of it?

We're REALLY cheap Robert! <g>  Just another POV:  I store the solution in
a glass carboy between uses and haven't made a fresh solution in at least
two years / 11 brews.  Top off the carboy with tap water after each use and
add Iodophor solution if needed  before use (judge the need by color of the
solution).  Used about 8 oz. of concentrate in that time.  Not making a
fresh batch before each racking has saved 160 gals. of water, 12 oz. of
Iodophor, and (a biggie with me) alot of time waiting for the carboy to
fill (and overfill when I get bored and wander off!) with water 32 times.
I'm an impatient tight-wad so YMMV!

A tip: A rubber carboy stopper will corrode from the iodine vapor (or is it
fumes?) and ultimately prevent a good seal so stick the stopper in a baggie
before tightly capping the carboy with it.  I've never tried a cornie for
storage, but I suspect the same fate would befall the lid o-ring.  

- --------
Jim <jimala at apical.com> posted in part:

>...I have found that the simple act of shaking one's
>immersion chiller gently in the cooling wort decreases the time required to
>cool it dramatically...  This technique would of course
>be difficult to do with a built in immersion coil in the boiling vessel. :)

Jim's absolutely right about shaking the chiller.  It can be verified with
a simple and quick experimetn: check the temp. of a static chiller's
discharge water then shake the chiller or rock the boiler and note the
sharp increase in temp.  A powered stirrer boosts the heat transfer even
more and is ideal for use with the built-in coil Jim mentions.  I use a
stirrer with an immersion chiller for it's speed and 'casue it eliminates
the tedious shaking or rocking.   When used in the boiler during the boil,
it increases hops utilization by ~1/3 in a 60 min. boil.   It would work
well with HERMS too- it would permit a shorter HX coil plus controlling the
stirrer RPMs could be used as another way to adjust the recirc. temp.  


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:00:34 -0400
From: Richard Johnson <ricjohnson at surry.net>
Subject: Crash cooling

When crash cooling in a carboy, what is the best kind of airlock to use to
avoid the suck-back (technical term) of the liquid in the airlock. I'm
thinking cotton soaked in alcohol in the airlock.

Richard Johnson
Mount Airy, NC




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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:01:26 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <babcockp at mediaone.net>
Subject: RE: RE: Iodophor + heating, cooling and water stuff

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

C.D. Pritchard writes...

>> I've never tried a cornie for
storage, but I suspect the same fate would befall the lid o-ring.  <<

I store mine in a cornie. Have for about six years. Never detected any
noticeable damage to the O-Rings or any other seals. YMMV.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:58:00 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: more yeast questions for Dr. Cone

I am so blown away by the quality of Dr. Cone's responses that
I'll pose another:

Could you please comment on the ability for "regular" ale and
lager yeasts to ferment out wort to levels >12% abv in the final
product?  Is there a good way to handle the yeast/fermentation to
ensure it doesn't stop working early (besides a healthy
starter)?  Are certain beer yeasts better than others for this?

Thanks,
Marc



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:39:50 -0500
From: Mark Kellums <kellums at springnet1.com>
Subject: Milwaukee restaurants

We'll be in Milwaukee the 28th of April attending the Craft Brewers
trade show. Can anyone recommend a good restaurant close to the Midwest
Express Center??

Thanks very much.

Mark Kellums
Decatur IL.



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:27:05 +1000
From: "Peter gunczy" <pcgunczy at primus.com.au>
Subject: First Wort hopping

Hi guys
Looks like I've finally found my place in life and thats with you lot of
eccentric and beer obsessed ladies and gentlemen

Living down under has its disadvantages as far as brewing is concerned and one
is years behind in homebrewing.

Can any one assist me with principals in First Wort Hopping
e.g. Amounts of hops
    length of boil
    are flowers preferred over pellets
    can it be done using malt extract

     Many Thanks Peter Gunczy



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:29:45 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Priming Mag. Drive Pumps

From: S. A. Wesley
Re: Priming Mag Drive Pumps.

In HBD #3304-2 Brent Dowell asks about priming the 6144MM HIGH TEMP 
pump he purchased from Moving Brews.  I have the same pump which I 
use with an oversize chiller. This prevents the pump from gravity 
priming, even though it is well below the kettle.  My solution to 
this problem was to install a "T" between the pump outlet and the 
ball valve which controlls flow to the Chiller.  On the stem of the 
"T" I installed a second valve which has a short length of tubing to 
direct the flow to a slop container.  Before starting the pump I 
prime it by closing the valve to the chiller and opening the valve on 
the stem of the "T". Liquid flows out of the stem valve which is then 
closed leaving the pump full of fluid. You can then start the pump, 
open the ball valve and proceed as normal.

						Regards,
						Simon


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:35:09 -0500
From: "Crossno, Glyn" <Glyn.Crossno at cubic.com>
Subject: attenuation

by Michael Froehlich (froeh at trojan.naa.rockwell.com)
Posted to Homebrew Digest #1747, June 2, 1995 
                                                                   
Our club, the Long Beach Homebrewers, conducted a yeast experiment. 

Yeast
FG
 - ----------------
- ------
1  Red Star Bread Ale Yeast                                        1.009
2  Glenbrew Ale Yeast                                                 1.004
3  Windsor Ale Yeast                                                   1.014
4  Doric Ale Yeast
1.015
5  Munton & Fison Ale Yeast                                         1.012
6  Wyeast Scottish Ale Yeast                                        1.008
7  London Ale Yeast
1.016
8  Nottingham Ale Yeast                                                1.015
9  Coopers Ale Yeast
1.012
10 Wyeast Bohemian Lager Yeast, second generation      1.011
11 Telfords Ale Yeast
1.015
12 Telfords Ale Yeast, second generation                         1.015
13 Edme Ale Yeast
Unknown


TTFN,
Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:49:40 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: RE:Pump Problems

Brent Dowell wrote that he had problems moving hot liquids with his
pump.  I also purchased a high temp pump a few months ago and have had
difficulty.  Pumping cool water on the test run was no problem at all.
Pumping hot water on game day was a different story.

Bill at Moving Brews was kind enough to spend some time with me on the
phone to give me tips on pushing the hot water.

1. Make sure the intake to the pump is fully flooded
2. Close off the out valve before starting the pump
3.  Start the pump and then slowly (and I mean SLOWLY!!) crack the out
valve to build up pressure
4. Wait, wait and wait

With my set up, I have to lift the hot sparge water about 8 feet off the
floor.  Just getting the hot liquid up the hose to the Gott Cooler can
take 10 min. or so.  Then, given the slow rate of flow (much much slower
than pumping cool water), it can take another 25 mins to fill the 10 gal
container.

As you can tell,  performance of the pump (March rated to 250degrees)
does not meet my expectations.  According to Bill, there is nothing
wrong with it - its just the limitation of the materials & technology
(and maybe my technique).  I don't pretend to understand the mechanics
of why the pump struggles with hot water.

My purpose in getting the pump, was to make my brewing sessions safer
and easier.  Safer - yes, easier? - no.  Dealing with the pump has
created a whole new set of issues that complicates my brewing.  I now
find myself going back to 5 gal batches because I can safely lift that
much sparge water without dealing with that damn pump.

Don Lake
Windermere Brewing Co
(Registered trademark of Lake Water Brewery)
(Wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:13:21 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: HDMS

Brewsters:

Keith MacNeal asks if having the lid partially on during the majority of
the boil won't cause HDMS to remain in the wort and cause a buildup of DMS
in the beer as has often been stated in past HBD issues.

Now, this old saw is something which WILL help fill up the Baron of
Burabadoo's dustbin, IMHO.

Having the lid partially on will not impede the loss of something as highly
volatile and as stream distillable as DMS and it's precursors. The
experiment I suggested should help you decide that for your system, anyway.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:49:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rick Magnan <magnan at jimmy.harvard.edu>
Subject: Banned in Burradoo

Evidently I have raised the ire of the Baron and am now a marked man
in Burradoo with the threat of being fed Ray's skunk oil on my head.

Phil, if you think thats going to keep me at bay, you might be right.  We 
have the real things roaming about neighborhood, the little varmints lurking
around every corner.  Even the constant drone of the neighbor's landscaping 
crews blowing about dirt and leaves and grass clippings isn't enough to 
drive them away.  In fact, summer before last, whilst out on the back porch
(we have much in common) working the barbeque, I turned around to reach
for my glass of (I know, it should have been a homebrew) red wine, and 
there I was staring into the beady little eyes of a rather large skunk not 
more than 3 feet away.  Petrified, paralyzed and potentially putrified, I 
was torn between sacrificing dinner and making a mad dash for safety.  My 
guest politely turned and calmly went his own way, a happy ending indeed.

As to why you were singled out for questioning, it was your statement: 
"When I first started brewing I worried about so many things that I should
and shouldn't do and it all came from reading books and listening to people
who I thought sounded like they knew it all.".  But as you seem to have
pulled back from the book part I guess thats that.  That the HBD contains 
some dubious do's and don'ts along with a fair amount of BS is a truth we 
all find self evident.  

Perhaps it would placate the "all this technical discussion is unnecessary"
camp and free them from the worry that the rest of us are so lacking in
judgment that we are unable to decide for ourselves what may or may not be 
useful or interesting if we were to add a disclaimer to the top of the digest:
"Most of this fancy, technical stuff that follows is not necessary to brew 
good beer and some may even be incorrect".  Then, could the rest of us go
about discussing homebrewing and beer in the manner we choose?

Paul's experienced fisherman analogy is all fine and good.  But this 
experience needs to be shared if its going to benefit the rest of us.

Thanks to those who mailed or posted suggestions how to avoid losing my
syphons of (cold) lagers.  Since this never happens to my ales, I think 
letting the beer warm up for a day is likely the simplest solution.  I'll 
let you know next year as I just bottled the last of the season recently.
Even this humble question can be an example of the simple vs technical
debate.  Really, I just want to be able to rack the beer w/o losing the 
syphon but if someone actually takes the time and energy to explain whats
taking place at a chemistry/biochem level - sure its unnecessary but I think 
it might be interesting.

And thanks to Dr Cone for the great information and to the janitors for
making the HBD possible.

Rick Magnan
Wellesley, Mass


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:52:27 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Pumps and Pumping

Brent,

I have had the same pump for 3 years and have experience all of the above at one
time or another.

1 Priming.
It is not a self priming pump. I start by blowing back the liquid in the tube
after the pump till it is all above the pump. This lets me know if there is any
mechanical blockage of a valve or whatnot. I then close the valve at the end of
my flexible tubing, I could just as easily close the one directly coming off the
pump. Yes I have 2. (More later on this) This keeps any liquid from going
through the pump. This way when I do open this valve I get the maximum
throughput (least amount of drag) to the pump for priming, I then turn on the
pump and if I am having a good day I can get it all done before any wort makes
it out of the system,  if not, that's why I have a 2 quart measuring cup handy.

2 Losing the prime.
Somewhere you have a leak. Shit happens. Its very aggravating and it happens all
the time. The guilty party is usually a hose clamp. those bastards work there
way loose all the time especially at higher temps. The hardest one to find is
the valve coming out of the kettle It will suck air but not leak wort--go
figure. It could even be a soldered elbow...

3 Recirculating.
This is why I have 2 valves on my flexible line after the pump. The one on the
pump is there so I can remove the flexible hose if necessary to clear the line.
The one on the end of the line is convenient for making minor adjustments in
flow. (You don't have to bend over to tweak your flow rate). The valve on the
pump has to be 1/2" pipethread and it has a 1/2 ball in it.  The one at the end
is 1/2' Sweat, it has a 1/4" ball in it The flexible tubing is 1/2" ID food
grade reinforced silicon tubing. I use a Knylar hose barb out of the pump valve
and have 3" of 1/2" copper pipe coming out of each end of the sweat valve. With
a little work you can force the copper pipe up the tubing and hose clamp it.
This clamp is the most dangerous one in the system. I have a nice burn on my
calf from when it gave way one day... I found that I needed both valves to get
and keep a the correct flow rate. Close the pump one half way and then use the
one on the end to regulate the final flow. Reducing the pump down from 6 gal/min
to .2 gal/min takes some tweaking, but with the two valves it much easier.

4. Cleaning
I only rinse with water. But I do recirc for the last ten min of the boil to
sanitize the pump before knock-out. This I feel is necessary since lactobacillus
is rampant in the mash liquor.

5. I have a nice drawing in JPG format if your interested.

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Homebrewer




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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:04:22 -0400
From: Jim <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Re: Acidifying Sparge Water

Art asks:

"Have a question about acidifying sparge water so that a rising pH isn't as
much a concern.  Have seen it mentioned here and in several other places,
but I've come across recommendations from 1/4 tsp of acid bled to 1 Tbsp of
phosphoric acid.  So, is there any sort of agreement on how much to add,
and how much is too much?  And, what detrimental effects can too acidic
sparge water have?"

Your goal in adding acid to your spraging water is to lower the pH to 5.7
or a little lower, to help avoid leaching tannins from the husks.  How much
you use depends on how alkaline your water supply is; you'll have to
experiment.  My water requires slightly more than 1/8 tsp of acid blend in
5 gallons to achieve this goal; yours may well be different.  Also, I am
using acid blend simply because I have it; I got some with a bunch of other
wine making equipment at an auction several years ago.  Lactic acid is
probably a better choice if you are going to purchase something, it doesnt
have that fruity taste like acid blend.

If you use overly acidic sparge water, you will have overly acidic beer. :)  

Cheers, Jim Adwell

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:19:45 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: pumps

Most mag drive pumps are NOT self priming.  They must be placed at the
lowest point in the system and be turned in such a way that the
input/output fittings are pointed up.  Any throttling should be done on
the output side with a valve.  If you "lost prime" it is probably
because there is a bubble trapped in the pump.  These pumps also reduce
the pressure and allow bubbles that otherwise would not form to come
alive.  This is particularly true when they are used in conjunction with
a boil kettle for pumping hot wort.

Recirculation should not be a problem.  I have found that on "the
perfesser" that my mash should be a) well mixed and b) the water/grain
ratio is around 1.25-1.33 quarts/gallon.

Your cleaning methods is the ones I use.  Works for me..

Be careful how much suction you take on a grain bed.  It is possible to
compact the bed with these pumps.  The initial grain/water mix can be
helped along through the use of a savonius rotor type mixer on an
electric drill.  These are usually found in the paint/wall board section
of your local mega home store.  They are available in chrome plated,
which IMHO works best.  I usually start with 1 quart/pound for the first
30 minutes and then add additional water for recirc.

Hope this helps.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:12:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: 6th Boneyard Brew-Off, Champaign IL

Brewers, start your kettles!  Judges, mark your calendars!
 
The 6th Annual Boneyard Brew-Off will be held on June 10,
organized by the Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots,
Champaign Illinois. Entries will be accepted May 26 through
June 6 in all 1999 BJCP categories (beer, mead, and cider). 
We are also continuing our tradition of a No One Gets Out
Alive High-gravity category, with a hedonic judging of any
beer or mead with a starting gravity over 1.070.
 
Details are available on the World Wide Web at
<http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/BUZZ/contest6.html>. Entry forms
will be available for download, and snail-mailed out to
regional clubs and judges, in the next week or so.
Judges can sign up now on the web.
 
To receive a hard copy of the materials, send us your
mailing address. 
 
Contacts:
  Competition Organizer: Brian Paszkiet <bpaszkie at uiuc.edu>
  Registrar: Brian Beyer <brianb at soltec.net>
  Judge Director: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:50:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Re: pump questions



Hello all,

	Brent Dowell asks several questions about using
his new pump.

>1) This pump does not seem to be self priming.  

>2) Once I was using the pump, I seemed to 'lose' the
>'prime' every now and then and would have to re-prime
>the pump to continue.  

>3) I did try to use the pump to recirculate the liquid
>in the mash, but was not successful. 

>4) Any tips on cleaning after use?   Basically I just
>recirculated some hot water through it, followed with
>a light iodophor rinse, then a clear water rinse.

	Brent, I'm sure you'll find your pump a great asset
to your system, once you get past some of these initial bugs
that all pump users go through.  Here are some suggestions
that should help with the problems you describe.

	First, as you point out, these centrifigual pumps are
not self priming.  You need to have the impeller chamber and
the tubing that flows into it completely filled with liquid, 
with as little gas as possible.  This is especially true if 
you're planning to pump high temperature fluid, which is much
more likely to "boil" and cause cavitation difficulties.  For
the pump that goes from the hot liquor tank to the mash tun,
the solution that's worked for me is to fill the pump and tubing 
while I fill the HLT, and run the pump to recirculate through
the HLT until all the bubbles are gone.  Then I close the ball valve
on the HLT and heat the mash water.  This ensures a smooth transfer
to the mash tun.  For my system, it's easiest to pump half the mash 
water to the mash tun, prime/reciculate the mash tun pump as above, 
then close the MT ball valve, add the grain and the rest of the mash 
water as usual.

	Generally, you have to let the grain bed set up for a while 
before starting to recirculate, to avoiding setting the mash.  You
didn't mention what kind of mash tun you're using.  If it's a cooler,
then you have no reason to recirculate until the end of the mash
(just for wort clarification.)  If you're using a stainless steel tun,
with access to a burner, you can use the pump as a "poor man's RIMS,"
getting nice, gentle temperature rises.  In either case, you definitely 
need a valve on the pump exit to regulate the flow.  If your flow
rates are too high, you can compact almost any grain bed.  Also, too
thin a mash (more than about 1.6 qts per lb, for me,) can contribute to
setting the mash.  With a reasonably thick mash (1.2-1.4 qts/lb,) without
too many "sticky" adjuncts, I generally have no problems recirculating
at 1-2 gallons per minute.  With lots of corn meal or wheat, the rate
has to be slowed to about .5-1 gallon per minute, which is still high
enough for the sort of temperature rises I look for.

	As far as cleaning, your regime sounds fine, UNLESS you're
using the pump to move chilled wort post-boil (to the fermentors, 
for example.)  If so, you might consider recirculating near-boiling
water through the pump and tubing for 20 minutes of so, before using
the pump.  If all your use of the pump is pre-boil, you should be in
good shape.

	Good luck with your newly-semi-automated brewery.


			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH

 



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:12:50 -0500
From: "Dave Hinrichs" <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: RE:  screw-on filters


Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:08:32 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Brita and screw-on filters

Sean asks
I have no idea about the first part of the question, not being an owner of
such a device.  Can Glen or someone else answer?  I'm personally curious
what the manufacturers of the screw-on or countertop filters recommend for a
flow rate.

Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca

Most control the flow rate by restricting the passage thru a small hole.
When I did the design for the Sears unit we shot for .5 gpm and nailed it
just by the hole and passage sizes. Also the carbon filter will restrict
flow as well. I still recommend a under sink or whole house unit as it is
cheaper and easier to use. I also think the faucet and countertop units are
more prone to contamination as they are not a sealed system.

Dave



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:40:40 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: fishing

Paul Niebergall wrote: 

>To whoever it was who compared fishing to homebrewing:

>Do you really think that someone who spent his time 
>researching about fishing in a library could outfish 
>someone who has spent an equivalent amount of time 
>in a boat actually fishing?  

>I can see it now Steve Alexander and Alan Meeker in a 
>boat, equipped with them is the latest technology 
>that money can buy...[snip]

>Up against them is an old guy in a row boat who has 
>never so much as read a fishing magazine (hell, he 
>cant even read)... [snip]

Paul,

Your humorous analogy implies that neither Alan or Steve have any experience
in fishing which then also implies that they have little to no experience in
homebrewing.  We know that is not the case.  Stop teasing the boys.  While I
understand the point you are trying to make over "Time on the water.  Time
in the brewery." and "Who is going to enjoy their time on the water more?",
I also realize that Alan and Steve (plus many others, myself included) are
looking to understand the why and how of homebrewing.  

The transormation from wort to beer is a series of complex biochemical
reactions and pathways.  Most homebrewers are content to know that if they
do certain things in a prescribed order that their beer tastes better - end
of story.  Then there are those of us who must know the how and why and will
not rest until it is explained or discovered.  That is where they find their
joy.  So I'm sure that they thoroughly enjoy their time in their own brewery
doing thier own things they way they like it.  To each his own.

It is said that true wisdom comes with both knowledge and understanding.  As
with anything, I believe that one must have a bit of book knowledge tempered
with the understanding gained by practical experience to truly master
his/her subject.  I don't know why I get a bigger, faster, cleaner break
using first wort hops.  It would be nice to know and I would participate in
discussions theorizing it, but even without a scientific explanation, I'm
happy to call them "clearing hops" (a la Pivo) and be happy with my beer.

As for the TRUE link between fishing and beer, I will be conducting research
on this over the weekend in my boat as the cooler resides right next to the
tacklebox ;-)


Glen Pannicke
Merck & Co.
Computer Validation Quality Assurance  
email:  glen_pannicke at merck.com 







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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:42:01 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Brita and screw-on filters

Brian asked:

>>So what volume of carbon do your typical screw onto the faucet types of
>>filters have, and what would be a suitable flow rate for them?

And Sean replied:

>I have no idea about the first part of the question, not being an owner of
>such a device.  Can Glen or someone else answer?  I'm personally curious
>what the manufacturers of the screw-on or countertop filters recommend for
a
>flow rate.

Now I'm sticking my nose in:

I have no idea about the volumes of carbon, but I can tell you that
undersink faucet models have more carbon than the screw-on faucet models.
The faucet models probably have more than the Brita.  

Just picking the big 3 that I'm familiar with, here's a few references to
Omni, Pur, and Brita.  I also picked these becuase you should be able to get
'em at Home Depot and this would provide a convenient excuse to wander the
aisles aimlessly for an hour or two <insert manly-type grunting & cheering>.

http://www.omnifilter.com/wholehouse/index.shtml

Their whole house filters use cartidges with a 5 GPM rating that filter
particulates from anywhere from 30 um down to 5 um (depending on cartridge).
The chorine *reduction* (Class IV) is available in one type which is
actually a carbon-coated filter.  These are mostly good or sediment since
you have to supply your shower, toilet, et. al. with his filter.  They're
good for 3 months or 15,000 gallons.  I'd rather use these to filter my beer
with.  Not my water.

http://www.omnifilter.com/undersink/index.shtml

Chlorine *removal* is achieved with the undersink models.  They  flow at 1
GPM for all but one which is 0.75 GPM.  Chlorine removal is dependent upon
the filter cartridge selected (about 98 - 99.95%) and fitration can range
from a rough 30 um to a tight 0.5 um.  These are your best bet if you don't
want to let your water sit out for a few days, boil it or use campden
tablets (never knew about this one - good info!)  Most of them are good for
6 months and 1,000 gallons.  One is only good fro 4 months and 600 gallons
(but you probably don't need that one anyway).  These guys cost!


http://www.waterpik.com/index.cfm

Their best filter lasts up to 200 gallons or three months.  It's rated at
Class 1 for chlorine reduction (94%) and Standard 53 (93%) for reduction of
lead.  No info on flow rate, but they're probably the middle ground.Reduces
up to 93% Lead, up to 99.95%

http://www.brita.com/

Brita filters take approximately 3 to 5 minutes to filter 1 quart of water.
The filters require replacement after 10 gallons (you can stretch this) and
contain activated carbon which only *reduces* chlorine (Class IV???).  It
also contains an ion echange resin which removes/reduces lead,copper calcium
and magnesium (depending upon initial quality of water).  They say not to
filter more than 4 quarts (or something like that) per day to maintain
filter efficiency.

Brita filters are less efficient and I'm sure the Omni undersink models give
you the best bang for the $$.  I'm patient to wait for my Brita and I don't
look forward to screwing around under my sink.  It's dark in there!

Oh, I almost forgot my disclaimer:  I do not work for Omni, Waterpik or
Brita - but they are giving me very large sums of money to mention their
products in this forum - yeah sure...


Glen Pannicke
Merck & Co.
Computer Validation Quality Assurance  
email:  glen_pannicke at merck.com 


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:41:34 -0400
From: Rick <flp2m at virginia.edu>
Subject: Thanks Dr.Cone

Just in case no one has done it yet.
This is really great to have so many detailed answers to or many yeast
questions.

Thanks
Rick Pauly





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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:02:54 -0700
From: "Michael Rose" <maltandhops at msn.com>
Subject: Questions for Dr. Cone


Dr. Cone wrote in response to a previous question,

>The low levels of polysaccharides and manoproteins in wine can be detected
>more readily because of the lighter structure of wine.  Beer already has a
>sizable amount of carbohydrates (extracts), however, who knows what
>contributions these compounds can have on beer.

>My company is in the process of building a factory to produce these
>compounds for the wine industry, you can bet that we will now explore its
>use in the brewing industry.

1. A clarification please. Is the new factory producing specialized yeast,
or the actually manoprotein compound?

2. Do you know of any other compounds (protein related, not carb related)
that can be added to beer or wine to enhance mouthfeel? 
(excluding malt, barley, wheat)

Thank you again for your help!
 
michael rose     Crestline, CA      maltandhops at msn.com





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