---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Kolsch astringency (Richard_R_Gontarek)
  Re: Big Brew Day - How much water? (Spencer W Thomas)
  RE: Jeff's question on Iodophor (Robert Arguello)
  RE: Big Brew Day - How much water? (C.P.)" <cfrey at ford.com>
  Paul goes fishing... ("Alan Meeker")
  Clayton Cone question ("Alan Meeker")
  Low alcohol/Non-alcoholic beer ("Hansen, Mike")
  Yeast propagator ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Acidification (AJ)
  ...Just lookin' for a clone.... ("Jeffry D Luck")
  Dr. Cone Yeast Question ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: iodophor, AHA Bashing :-) (Jim Liddil)
  Cardamon and Fishing and Brewing (WayneM38)
  Cardamom Patent (Ron and Sharon)
  Phil's Lauter Tun ("Jeremy J. Arntz")
  First Batch, Low Efficiency ("Jeremy J. Arntz")
  Brewing water (William Frazier)
  pump suggestions (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  Re: perceived pump problems. (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  RE: But The Party Ends For Rick (David Lamotte)
  trying to formulate Scotch Ale Recipe ("Darrell Leavitt")
  2 questions (Calimok)
  Re: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick (Jeff Renner)
  The Art of Starters (Jeffrey_Tonole/CA/americancentury)
  Skunks ("Daniel, Elijah")
  RE: acidfying sparge water ("Daniel, Elijah")
  Milwaukee Restaurants (Dan Listermann)
  yeast harvest (Aaron Robert Lyon)
  dechlorination ("Sean Richens")
  RE: Getting Started, HBD 3302 ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  HBD Griping and Heat Transfer Correction (Jim Bentson)
  Free Bottles (geeks)
  Historic Brewers, Web Page Address (Nathan & Heidi)
  RE: Re: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick ("Pat Babcock")
  temps/more ... ("Stephen Alexander")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:04:54 -0400
From: Richard_R_Gontarek at sbphrd.com
Subject: Kolsch astringency

Hello All,

I brewed my first Kolsch back in February, and it has been in the keg for a
2 weeks. The beer is crystal clear now (lagered at 4C for a few weeks),
but it has an odd, astringent taste that I cannot quite understand. I used
Weyermann pils malt, with ~10% wheat, and Wyeast kolsch yeast 2565.
Because of the lack of good commercially-available Kolschs here
in PA, I am not really sure if this dryness is something that is
expected from the yeast and is appropriate to style. The BJCP
style guide for Kolsch says "delicate dryness in the finish from German
hops", but I detect a dryness in the mouth as soon as the beer hits the taste
buds (not as overwhelming as a young cabernet, but perceivable nonetheless).

I am careful to sparge with water that is not too hot, so I know the astringency
didn't come from there. As this is the first time using the Weyermann malt as
well as
the Kolsch yeast, I'm not sure what to think. Anyone know what I'm talking about
or have any thoughts? BTW, the beer is still very good in my opinion, but I'd
like to know if the dryness/astringency is something that shouldn'e be there.

Thanks!

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Trappe, PA
Richard_R_Gontarek at sbphrd.com




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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:34:18 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Big Brew Day - How much water? 

You know, I've got to agree here.  The 10 lbs of grain in the
all-grain recipe will hold 4-6 quarts of water, so you're looking at
about 5-5.5 gallons out of the lauter tun.  THen you boil it for 80
minutes and another gallon is gone, so you're down to 4-4.5 gallons of
finished beer.  

=Spencer

>>>>> "grigg" == grigg  <grigg at att.net> writes:


    grigg> Paul Gatza reminded us of the upcoming Big Brew Day. Has
    grigg> anyone looked at the amount of water in those recipes (6.5
    grigg> for all grain, 5 for extract)? I'm going to find it hard to
    grigg> squeeze out 4 gallons of wort using those amounts. What is
    grigg> the expected volume?



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:31:48 -0700
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: Jeff's question on Iodophor

ON: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:52:46 -0400
Jeff Renner asked....

- --Sure it's cheap to make up fresh iodophor solutions, but why isn't it still
- --good after 24 hours as was suggested here if it still has good color?  I
- --like to keep a spray bottle around and I sure don't want to have to make up
- --a new pint every day.


Jeff,

A good question and all I can tell you is what I was told during my
interview with Dr. Landman, the head honcho of BTF Iodophor.

He said that the solution should be renewed when the amber color fades, or
after 24 hours... whichever comes first. 

I suspect that if the amber color is still evident, (capitalize
"evident"),regardless of the time lapsed, that the efficacy of the
sanitizer would still be there. Perhaps, as the proprietors of a business,
(and subject to lawsuits), they are just covering their butts by suggesting
the 24 hour time limit. Also, guaging whether the solution is "amber" is
somewhat subjective... how amber is amber. I doubt that they are just
trying to get the consumer to waste the solution in the interest of
increasing sales.

I can tell you that the amber color will last longer if you use distilled
water, (chlorine breaks down iodophor), and keep the solution in an
airtight container and out of direct light.

If being able to keep a solution in a spray bottle for extended periods of
time is important to you, some experimation would be in order. Perhaps you
could test the efficacy of older iodophor solution by spraying it on a
growth media, (agar), then innoculating the agar with live yeast. If the
yeast dies, that would show that the older solution was effective. To be
doubly sure, you should probably also test with various bacterial cultures.

The bottom line, (to my thinking), is...  You can be sure that a "working
solution" of iodophor, or any sanitizing agent, WILL lose efficacy in
relatively short time. Gauging the point at which effectiveness is actually
lost under various and real-world situations is problematic and a
crapshoot. The amber color "indicator", while perhaps conservative, is at
least a useable reference point. I do agree that while iodophor is cheap,
it would be nice to mix it and forget it, but ya can't safely do so.

Robert Arguello



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:49:08 -0400
From: "Frey, Chris (C.P.)" <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: RE: Big Brew Day - How much water? 

I agree as well. My comment to Paul on this was that different peoples
systems and set-ups will cause somewhat different results. When I brew I
always have too much water in my hot liquor tank. I typically strike with
about 1 - 1.25 qts per lb., plus an additional gallon for foundation water
under my false bottom (1/2 barrel system). I sparge until I have 1.25 -1.5
gallons more than  my final desired amount to allow for evaporation during a
75 minute boil. Past performance is no guarentee of future returns, no money
back, yada, yada...

Chris P. Frey
Credit Insurance Product Management


- -----Original Message-----
From: Spencer W Thomas [mailto:spencer at engin.umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 1:34 PM
To: grigg at att.net
Cc: Homebrew Digest; Chris Frey
Subject: Re: Big Brew Day - How much water? 


You know, I've got to agree here.  The 10 lbs of grain in the
all-grain recipe will hold 4-6 quarts of water, so you're looking at
about 5-5.5 gallons out of the lauter tun.  THen you boil it for 80
minutes and another gallon is gone, so you're down to 4-4.5 gallons of
finished beer.  

=Spencer

>>>>> "grigg" == grigg  <grigg at att.net> writes:


    grigg> Paul Gatza reminded us of the upcoming Big Brew Day. Has
    grigg> anyone looked at the amount of water in those recipes (6.5
    grigg> for all grain, 5 for extract)? I'm going to find it hard to
    grigg> squeeze out 4 gallons of wort using those amounts. What is
    grigg> the expected volume?


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:25:50 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Paul goes fishing...

Paul Niebergall alluded to a fishing analogy:

> Do you really think that someone who spent his time
> researching about fishing in a library could outfish
> someone who has spent an equivalent amount of time
> in a boat actually fishing?

Paul, I don't understand where you are getting this black and white view of
the world from, it's not a matter of  "either or."
I haven't seen any posts claiming that the only or best way to brew the good
beer is to rely solely on book research - that's obviously ludicrous!
Clearly BOTH experience and research will be beneficial and complement one
another. Perhaps the better analogy is chess where the best players have
both the experience and the book knowledge.

Personally, my goal is to make the best beer I can and I won't hesitate to
use all available sources to achieve this goal!

 -Alan Meeker





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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:29:19 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Clayton Cone question

Dr. Cone, I'd like to ask you a few questions of a less technical nature.
Are you a homebrewer? If so, how long have you been doing it and what has
your experience taught you that might be helpful to those of us on the HBD?

What styles of beer do you typically brew and what are your favorite styles
to drink??

In your experience, what are the most important things we as homebrewers
should be paying close attention to?

Thanks

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:51:56 -0500
From: "Hansen, Mike" <MHansen at mail.public-health.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Low alcohol/Non-alcoholic beer

Hi all,

Awhile back somebody requested information on cooking beer to remove
the alcohol. This information can be found at The Brewery:
http://hbd.org/brewery/Library.html#NABeer
I wouldn't want to make NA beer this way, though. I have a method for 
making beer with just slightly more than 1% alcohol that works quite 
well. I won't take up the bandwidth to describe it here. Details can be 
found at my low alcohol/non-alcoholic beer page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikeandjo/docs/LANA.html
I'd be interested in hearing comments on my method.

Cheers,
Mike


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:01:51 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Yeast propagator

Here's one for all the homebrew geeks, tinkers, librarians and toy lovers:

Given the advantages of using a unitank for yeast propagation and
collection, I'd like your thoughts on a homebrew scale (1 - 1.5 gallon
capacity) propagator that would work for batches over 5 gallons.  It should
not be expensive (around $50 in material costs) and easily constructed using
readily available materials which may be scrounged from around the house or
purchased in a local store.

Being a tinker, I already have have the basics roughed out on paper.  So far
I have worked out the possiblities for a plastic tank with a loosely
covering lid, collection cock below the yeast, siphon cock above the yeast,
circulation, aeration and heating/cooling systems.  Sticking mostly to
plastic will keep material costs way down and would not require many
specialized tools.

Please respond if you would find this to be of interest (either here or
privately).  If not, your silence will be enough.


Glen Pannicke
Merck & Co.
Computer Validation Quality Assurance  
email:  glen_pannicke at merck.com 


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:13:22 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Acidification

Art Tyszka asked about how much acid needs to be added to sparge water.
This depends on the alkalinity of the water and the acid used. All the
details can be found at
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/AcidifWaterAJD0497.html



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Date: 20 Apr 2000 12:44:25 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: ...Just lookin' for a clone....

Does anyone have a clone recipe for Spaten's 
Optimator or their Oktoberfest/Marzen?

I'm interested in an extract recipe.  Thanks.


Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT




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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:11:26 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Dr. Cone Yeast Question

Dr. Cone, please elaborate further on the various flavor affects
(principally ester and fusel alcohols, I believe) on beer by yeast in terms
of under/over pitching and over/under aeration.   The literature I have read
seems (at least to me) to be mixed on the production of esters by pitching
and aeration rates.   That is if I want to minimize esters (fusels) or in
other cases maximize esters (but not fusels) which combination of variables
achieves the objective?

David Houseman


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:00:48 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: iodophor, AHA Bashing :-)

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Renner asked about iodophor storage.  First off you can read more
about iodophor in the article palmer and I wrote.  I have a link to his
site on mine www.liddil.com.  Free iodine is what matters.  Color is
misleading.  Bugs can grow in iodine solutions.

 > >
> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:47:14 -0400
> From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
> Subject: AHA
>
> I've just had my first pleasant experience with the AHA in
> four years and would like to make an open call to AHA/AOB
> critics to give the organization another chance.  It seems
> like they're putting the right people in the right places
> and there are signs that the ship is starting to right
> itself.  Nothing is intended as a criticism of Brian Rezac
> who, in my limited interaction, did not appear to be part of
> the problem.  Let's not rehash that now.
>

Oh let's go to the stoning.  Well though Rob moline is on the AHA board
you will note that under is title for lallemand he brought dr. cone here
and not to the useless aha forum.  Did the Siebels guys show up at the AHA
forum?  nope, hbd.  I recently joined the IBS and go an autobot message.
I had to inquire about joining the IBS forum since no one contacted me for
a month after they charged my credit card.  But I will say Ray Daniels put
me in touch with the right person ASAP. FWIW I have been an AHA member
since I started homebrewing.

>
> Let's face it, without BT and it's merry band of followers
> the AHA is the best chance at continued improvement in
> homebrewing.  I have decided to try and be part of the
> solution to turning around Zymurgy and (1) become a paying
> member of the AHA again, and (2) contribute to the content
> where appropriate.  If permanent changes in any system are
> desired, it's best to show support when you see signs that
> things are going in the right direction.  I see those
> signs.  Oh, and when the wife graduates I'll send that check
> to the HBD Server Fund.
>

Hey $20 won't break the bank. The HBD and associated servers have more
info for free than all the AOB web site.  I understand the AOB did offer to 
donate to the hbd server fund, but the janitors declined the offer.  I see 
this as a wise decision until the AOB/AHA gets it together.

The AHA has to decide they want real content in their magazine.  Don't
even get me started.  I personally favor an e-zine like pat suggested when
BT went under.  Maybe just maybe the AHA will start putting together a
real magazine with real content. Or will they always be the magazine for
beginners and leave the rest of the crowd to use the internet?


Jim Liddil







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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:02:30 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Cardamon and Fishing and Brewing



On: Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:17:38 -0500
 From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
 Subject: Cardamom and fishing >>

Paul writes:

Subject: Cardamom and fishing


<<Time on the water.  Time in the brewery.  Think about it.

Paul Niebergall>>

Paul:

I have been involved in horticulture/botany since 1970 and when someone brags 
that they have 15 years experience growing (you name the plant/crop), the 
first question that comes to my mind is:

Do you have 15 years of real experience (learning, experimenting, pushing 
existing knowledge base) or one (1) year's experience repeated 15 times?

I think that applies to fishing and brewing too!

Wayne
Botanist Brewer in MKE


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:27:50 -0500
From: Ron and Sharon <biohazrd at graceba.net>
Subject: Cardamom Patent

Wow, has anybody been to the patent site as Jim recommended in his
posting from 19 April 2000?  Well, we have and we're looking at a
printout of the Bush patent #4,389,421 as he recommended. We really
can't believe what we're reading. Would someone versed in patent law and
homebrewing please review the document for the HBD collective?  I have a
fairly solid background in chemistry (I'm a pharmacist) and it looks
like we may really have something here that will help all of us.

It seems to me that the addition of about 1.2 milligrams of cardamom (a
spice) added to 5 gallons of beer will impart no flavor to the beer but
will protect it from skunking for at least 15 minutes in direct sun in
clear glass.  Wow, the implications of this are absolutely amazing.  No
more ceramic steins with tin tops for drinking brew in our biergarten.
This is a discovery of staggering proportions for the beer drinking
world.  And to think that Annheiser Busch has been sitting on this since
at least 1981 and possibly since 1968.

As I read the patent the ingredient used for testing was ground
cardamom, but I would like someone more educated in patents to read this
portion.  If this is so, distribution of the active compounds may be a
problem.  I would like to try making a tincture from the cardamom and
standardizing this.  A tincture is an alcoholic extract of a plant
material, very simple to make, very handy to use in small quantities.
Standardizing would take a lab.  Also, would someone more familiar with
cineole type compounds help use with its solubility?  Lets get working
on this, I think it may be the best advance in beer in a good while.

Ron and Sharon Montefusco
www.graceba.net/~biohazrd
biohazrd at graceba.net



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:38:25 -0400
From: "Jeremy J. Arntz" <arntz at surfree.com>
Subject: Phil's Lauter Tun

I apologize if I implied that Phil's Lauter Tun was not a good product. I
had a chance to use
it for the first time today to brew my first batch of all grain. It worked
great granted I had some problems,
but I'd blame myself before I would blame the system. In fact I had few
"equipment" problems.
The only thing I will do next time is use another Large hose clamp that I
bought for racking in place
of the small clamp included with the kit. I just seem to have trouble
putting it on and taking it off for cleaning.
If it wasn't for this system I for one would still be extract brewing.

See my next message to help with my mashing!

Jeremy (arntz at surfree.com)
"Draft beer , not people."
(:-o)<><////////>



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:38:20 -0400
From: "Jeremy J. Arntz" <arntz at surfree.com>
Subject: First Batch, Low Efficiency

I did my first all grain mash today and my efficiency came out a little low.
65% to be exact.
I believe that I can almost answer my own question, but I would like to hear
some advice
from the mash masters out there. I brewed a 2.5 gal batch of "Irish Red" the
grain bill was:
2.5lbs 2 row Pale
 .5lbs 6 row
1lb Munich
 .5 40l Crystal
 .25lbs Dextrin
- --------------------------------------
4.75lbs Efficiency Points: 69

3.5 Gallons Collected for Boil
Post Mash/Sparge SG 1.045

My mash lasted 75-80 mins. and I never got an positive conversion test from
Iodine.
I called my brewshop guy after 70 mins. . He said to just continue on and
that the
Iodine test wasn't always accurate. My mash temps: Start 145 F , 5 mins
added water
 to raise temp. 152 F, 30 mins. 145 F, 45 mins. 143 F,
60 mins. 135 F added water raise temp to 145 F, 70 mins 140 F
Total Mash Water Volume;  at  Start 1.25,  at  Final 1.50-1.75
Sparge Water Volume: 1.75-2.0 gals
Sparge Temp: 170-175 F
Sparge Time: 15-20 mins.

The short sparge time bugged me, but I also am wondering about the
conversion of
starches to sugars.

I guess my ultimate question is what effects efficiency? What can I do to
improve mine?
Or is it unimportant and I should just figure future grain bills on this low
efficiency factor?

Thanks Again!!

Jeremy (arntz at surfree.com)
"Draft beer , not people."
(:-o)<><////////>



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:42:08 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brewing water

I'm working on a Bitters recipe.  So far I've brewed this beer with soft
water but I would like try brewing it with Burton-like water to see what
happens to the quality of the bitterness.  Checking my library I come up
with some differences in the composition of the Burton water;

Mineral, ppm    1       2        3        4

Calcium         294     260-300  260-352  275
Magnesium       24      45-65    24-60    40
Sodium          24      30-55    54       25
Sulfate         801     630-725  630-820  450
Carbonate       0       200-300  ?        260 
Chloride        36      25-40    16-36    35

1.  Ray Daniels, Designing Great Beers
2.  Al Korzonas, Homebrewing Volume 1
3.  C. Papazian, NCJOHB
4.  G. Noonan,   New Brewing Lager Beer

I could build a good Burton-like water using local tap water plus minerals
except for one statement in Ray Daniels book.  "Burton water is exceedingly
hard but has no bicarbonate.  The presence of bicarbonate at significant
levels in your brewing water can undermine the crisp, clean bitterness you
are trying to achieve".  As can be seen above, this differs from the other
authors information about carbonate in Burton-like water.

What is right?  What are suggestions for a good Burton-like water
composition from those that brew good versions of Pale Ales or Bitters?  TIA.

        Bill Frazier
        Olathe, Kansas      



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:21:40 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: pump suggestions

I use 2 March bronze mag drive pumps on "the perfesser".  This pump is
available from McMaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/   Look under
circulating pumps and part # 4161K21.  It isn't all that cheap at $122
for the 1/25th hp unit (the 1/100 just doesn't get the job done.) but it
will pump anything up to 250 degrees and to a distance of 12 feet up.
You also might check Moving Brews http://www.movingbrews.com/  They
carry a selection of mag drives but the cases are all composite.  I
really don't think you want to look for stainless as the prices will be
in the $350-$450 range.  I have used the bronze units without any
problems either from heat or contamination.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"  http://brewrats.org/hwb/er
Birmingham, AL





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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:38:41 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: perceived pump problems.

As noted above, (or below - whatever) I have been using 2 March 809
bronze bodied 1/25th hp pumps on my system for the past 2 1/2 years and
have never had all these priming and cavitation maladies once I learned
to position the pump where there was no bubble trapped inside.  I can
safely and quickly pump either boiling wort or chilled wort up 6-8 feet
without difficulty and at just about any rate I choose.  I must pump
"up" to my conical when I ferment lagers by placing the fermenter inside
an ex Pepsi cooler.  I think the fault lies with both positioning and
throttling when priming and cavitation problems are encountered.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"  http://brewrats.org/hwb/er
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:32:44 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick

Pat Babcock, one of our highly esteemed janitors, writes with concern about
a fermenter spigot drawing all the trub from the bottom.  Unlike Pat, I
would be one of the first to question the judgement of our baron (it
is a well know ozzie condition called the tall poppy syndrome).  However in
this case, our beloved gentry is correct. 

You see, millions of years of evolution (in isolation) have seen our
fermentors grow spigots which are about 1-2 inches off the bottom.  Darwin
studied this situation when he visited down under in the 'Beagle' and
concluded that fermenters that allow cloudy beer to be sent onto the
secondary were naturally selected to the back of the shed, or suffered a
premature death at the business end of a size 9, steel-capped, workboot.

Even though I now ferment in stainless, I spent about happy 20 years with
my plastic fermenter.  While the spigot height would appear to allow much
beer to be wasted, the simple art of gently tipping the
fermenter forward was sufficient to allow all but the last cup or so to be
easily removed.

Those amongst us still unable to believe such mysteries, had better take a
look at http://yarranet.net.au/shb/images/drum.GIF, for a picture.


David Lamotte
Brewing in a different county to the Baron in
Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:09:44 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt" <Darrell_Leavitt at esc.edu>
Subject: trying to formulate Scotch Ale Recipe

I am preparing to make a Scotch Ale.  Various recipes that I have run
across seem to share some ingredients in commom, yet some differ.  Most
have at least 10 lb 2 row , most  have some aromatic, crystal, some peat
smoked, and even a few have roasted barley.  There are a few that include
small amounts of black treacle, brown sugar, ...in the boil.  All seem to
agree on Wyeast 1728.  All seem to agree on a 90 minute boil, preceeded by
a single step infusion (156F / 69 C).

  Have any of you messed with these recipes...for a 5 gallon batch?

 I left out the fact that a few use small amounts of chocolate malt...

 ..Darrell




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:51:35 EDT
From: Calimok at aol.com
Subject: 2 questions

Good morning!

I've got a couple of questions...

1)  Does anyone know of a device that allows fermenting with a glass carboy 
in an inverted position, allowing "easy" collection of yeast sediment?  I've 
had such a device described to me, but have never seen one.

2)  What kind of chemical reactions will an aluminum stock pot have with 
wort?  I'm in need of a larger brew pot, but I'm also on a tight budget.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  Thanks,

Pat "Big Red" Woods


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:43:03 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick

Our esteemed janitor "Pat Babcock" <babcockp at mediaone.net> asks

>Phil, the Reigning Baron of Buradoo

>Um, but wouldn't drawing all the trub from the bottom (where the "spigot"
>is) kind of make racking a moot point? I mean, not that I'd question your
>judgement oh great baron, but, wouldn't it? Sorta? Maybe???

Well, I'm not the baron, but he's probably flying on the other side of the
continent (as far away from the Kiwis as possible, right, Phil?), so I'll
offer my experience.

I ferment my ales in the 10 gallon aluminum stock pot that I heat my sparge
water in.  It has a spigot or tap with a small 90 deg. elbow inside angled
down almost touching the bottom of the pot.  When I gravity rack into the
secondary, I just pull a yeasty/truby ounce or two first and the rest of
the sediment stays put on the bottom of the fermenter and I get clean beer.
After the pot is drained, you can see the flow has pulled an area clear of
sediment smaller than a quarter.  (Not sure how much that is in Australian
money.  Probably about 15 cents).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:10:19 -0700
From: Jeffrey_Tonole/CA/americancentury at americancentury.com
Subject: The Art of Starters



Jeff McNally said:

>brewing, as with any worth while endevour in life,
>follows the "90/10" rule.  That is, 90% of your effort
>will be spent reaching the last 10% of your goal.

I always thought it was "90% of the posts come from
10% of the subscribers." Or something like that.

- ----------------

Now that I've got a dedicated brew fridge, I'm about
to embark on my first true lager (a CAP), and I've got
a question about lager starters.

My SOP for ales is to make a 3-cup yeast starter and
then pitch that into a 1-gallon extract batch in my primary
fermenter about a week in advance of brewday. When
the main 5-gallon batch has been brewed and chilled,
I rack out the 1-gallon "starter" batch, leaving a nice yeast
cake for the main batch. Works great -- I get very little in
the way of lag times, plus an extra gallon of drinkable beer.

If I use the same procedure for a lager, at what temperature
should I ferment the "starter" batch? Is room temp OK, or
should I keep it at the same temp I plan to ferment the main
batch (around 50F)?

Thanks for all those "hope this helps" posts (both past and
future)!

jeff tonole
SlothBrew
jyt at americancentury.com

Adrift in the universe but currently living in the same metropolitan
area as Al K





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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:21:38 -0400
From: "Daniel, Elijah" <Elijah.Daniel at compaq.com>
Subject: Skunks

Rick Magnan tells of the overabundance of skunks in the greater Boston area.
Boy, can I vouch for that...

We had a rabid skunk wandering around Somerville last summer.  It chased me
around the back yard and followed me into the garage; I had to hide in my
car until it left.  A few hours later, my next-door neighbor had to spray it
with a garden hose keep it from coming up onto his back porch.  Then it
tried to eat the stray kittens under the porch of the neighbor on the other
side, which proved to be a fatal mistake... the neighbor was so incensed
that she got an old table leg and beat the skunk to a pulp (the remains were
then tested, which is how we found out it had rabies).  Needless to say, the
neighborhood didn't smell very nice for a few days.  The Baron should be
glad that all he has in Burradoo is a vial of oil.

I'd rather drink a homebrew than a rabid skunk (there, now this is
beer-related!)

 -Eli Daniel
Somerville, MA


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:31:47 -0400
From: "Daniel, Elijah" <Elijah.Daniel at compaq.com>
Subject: RE: acidfying sparge water

One more data point:

After brewing several all-grain batches successfully without any acid
additions, I recently bought a bottle of lactic acid to see if acidifying my
sparge water would make any difference.  I measured the pH of my brewing
water (store brand bottled water) to get some idea of how much acid I'd want
to add, and was surprised to discover that its pH was already somewhere
between 5 and 5.5 (that's as good resolution as I get with my pH paper).
This didn't surprise my girlfriend at all... apparently, the deionized water
in the lab where she's in grad school is about the same.

So the moral of this story is that you may not need to adjust your sparge
water at all.

 -Eli Daniel
Somerville, MA


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:05:23 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Milwaukee Restaurants

Mark Kellums ( kellums at springnet1.com ) asks about Restaurants in the
Milwaukee area.  I would like to suggest that he ask about the Safe House. 
I was there in 1980 and 1991.  If it is still there, check it out.  You
cannot find it on your own.  You will need to have someone give you
detailed instructions to find it.  It has no sign.  To get inside, you go
into a store front of an exporter and try to figure out how to go further. 
One time it required pulling the right knob on a cigarette machine.  It
opened a wall which lead to a passage to the bar where the patrons could
watch people trying to get in on closed circuit TV.   To exit, you have to
go into a phone booth and insert a quarter into the phone.  The back wall
will open to a staircase which leads to an alley door.

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com   72723.1707 at compuserve.com


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: yeast harvest

When is the best time to harvest yeast out of a fermenter?  Do you get
better (cleaner?) yeast out of the secondary?  It seems to me that this
would be the case since there wouldn't be much hot break in it.  Please
advise.

 -Aaron




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:46:42 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: dechlorination

Well, Glen and Dave sure came through with the data.

I had pretty much written off using sulphite or metabisulphite as a
practical way to reduce chlorine or chloroamines until Glen showed interest.
So I've thought about it some more, and remembered that sulphite is pretty
unstable in water.

I figure you could add the usual 2-3x stoichiometric excess, and, after
allowing some time to react, acidify the water and aerate it thoroughly,
stripping some sulphite as sulphur dioxide, and oxidising the rest to
sulphate.  You might check if the sulphate rise is big enough to worry
about.  Although you would worry about a water supply that contains ammonia,
the ammonium ion itself shouldn't hurt as it's a component of yeast
nutrient.

If any of the above helps someone, that would be great!

Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:17:54 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: RE: Getting Started, HBD 3302

Kevin Kerrigan asks in HBD 3302:

From: Kerrigan, Kevin [mailto:kkerrigan at hastings.edu]
Subject: Getting started.

To whom it may concern:

Some friends and I were considering investing in a home brewery.  We have no
knowledge of cost or required supplies.  If you could send us any
information on getting started off it would be greatly appreciated.

Kevin Kerrigan

Kevin,
cost depends on the method you wish to use and equipment you may 
already have or can easily scrounge.  Most homebrew shops will sell 
you a kit to make extract beers for less than $100.  Sometimes much less 
depending on included equipment.  In addition you need to have a 
largish boiling pot and about 50 12 oz recappable (not twistoff) beer bottles.
An 8 gallon enamel canning pot works well to start as does a common 
inexpensive 5 gallon thin stainless pot.  

My minimum list to start extract brewing would include:

Boiling pot mentioned above
7 gallon poly bucket with lid (primary fermenter and bottling bucket)
5 gallon glass carboy
racking cane with tubing and "foot"
bottling wand to fit racking cane and tubing
~50 recappable bottles
caps
capper
airlock
drilled stoppers for airlock, to fit  0.5" hole in bucket lid, and carboy neck
unscented household chlorine bleach as sanitizer
recipe ingredients, ie hopped extract, or liquid/dry malt extract and hops
dry yeast (discard unlabelled yeast included with kit)
hop bag
beginning book, my preference is Korzonas' "Home Brewing Volume 1"

additional extract brews will cost ~$2/lb for liquid malt extract, 
~$1.50/0z for hops, ~$2.50 for additional dry yeast.

if you can, scrounge a food grade 7 gallon bucket & lid and empty the 
recappable bottles yourself (tough job, but somebody hasta do it).  For 
recipes, help or more information, you can ask here, enquire on the 
Brews & Views BBS at the HBD/Brewery Website or log on to Skotrat's 
BrewRat Chat at http://skotrat.com/brc1.cfm. 

Welcome to the hobby!  Remember this is only my opinion as to 
minimum equipment needed.  There are *many* refinements that can 
be made to this list and to methods.  Most will make better beer and 
many will save some money at the expense of time.  As I can well 
attest, it's a slippery slope into obsession.

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion of Brewing Art vs. 
Science!  Prost!

 -Grant aka LabRat
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, WA, USA




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:34:02 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: HBD Griping and Heat Transfer Correction

Hi Guys: I haven't read the HBD since January and was somewhat saddened by
what I found. After skimming numerous issues from each month I finally
junked all issues from Jan through March since I found that the digest of
late contains more insults, arguments and apologies than decent beer
related posts. Boy do I miss Al. K. For those frequent ( and often
incessant) posters who are always embroiled in arguments I might suggest
they try the style of Dr Clayton Cone, who presents information in an
informative and non-judgmental style and seems to understand the right of
someone to ignore what he says and go on making beer their way.

Now to the real reason for posting. Dr. Pivo recently incorrectly commented
on the effect of moving an immersion chiller as follows:

In answer to the following by another poster ;
> I have found that the simple act of shaking one's
> immersion chiller gently in the cooling wort decreases the time required to
> cool it dramatically; before I 'discovered' this, my cooling times were on
> the order of 30 minutes, or even longer; since I started moving the chiller
> to and fro my wort cools from near boiling to 70F in 5-10 minutes 

Dr. Pivoo states:

 ...and 'deed it is true, that convection plus conduction is way faster
than conduction alone.


Just for the record this is incorrect. Conduction is the transfer of heat
in a solid.  Conduction is what takes place through the wall of the chiller
tube. It is what carries the heat through the solid tube wall from the hot
liquid, to the cold liquid. It is not affected directly by moving the
chiller. 

Convection is the transfer of heat at a solid - fluid interface ( both
liquids and gases are fluids) and this is what is being affected if you
move the chiller vs. leaving it stationary.   In a stationary immersion
chiller there are two types of convection present, forced and free. In
forced convection the fluid ( gas or liquid) is forced to move  ( has a
'forced' velocity) over the solid surface of the chiller due to some
external influence such as a pressure  difference or motion of the solid
itself. This is the type of heat transfer we see on the inside of the
immersion chiller where we pump the water through. 

Free convection is where there is no 'forced' relative velocity between the
chiller and the fluid. In the stationary immersion chiller the hot outside
fluid (the wort) transfers heat to the chiller wall which then conducts the
heat through the wall into the inside 'cooling' fluid where it is
transferred to the fluid by the forced convection. On the outside, as the
wort in contact with the chiller loses heat , it cools locally and becomes
more dense causing it to drop downward due to gravity. This downward motion
causes an effective velocity which moves the cooler wort away from the
chiller and brings hotter wort to the chiller to be cooled as the cooled
wort falls away.

Forced convection is much more efficient at transferring heat than free
convection is. In the case where you move the chiller you are causing a
forced velocity of the chiller relative to the wort so that you are getting
a forced velocity between the hot wort and the chiller. This improves the
heat transfer over the case of the stationary chiller where you rely on
free convection

The above is only part of the picture. The alternating motion of the
chiller causes 'vortex shedding' of the coils which drastically improves
the mixing of the cooler  wort in the vicinity of the chiller into the
hotter bulk. In the stationary case this  mixing into the bulk takes place
by a process called diffusion. Here again the moving case is superior to
the stationary case

Jim Bentson



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 21:42:18 +0000
From: geeks at att.net
Subject: Free Bottles

Hello brewers and brewsters -
   Due to exceptional skill at acquiring stuff, I have a 
lot of bottles I'd like to give away. I have approx 5 
cases of german .5 liter bottles and approx 3 cases of 
german .33 liter bottles. All bottles ( with the 
exception of about 12 .33's ) are delabeled and cleaned 
with foil covering the mouth. Most are also in their 
original boxes and/or carriers. If you can drive to the 
Golden, Colorado area, come and get 'em!
   Please, off-line responses only! Preserve the hbd for 
the good stuff ( it's ALL good, despite what some of you 
say! ). Donations of homebrew happily accepted.

Bill the bottle-lover


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:12:11 -0600
From: Nathan & Heidi <heidinate at prodigy.net>
Subject: Historic Brewers, Web Page Address

Concerning the post about the SCA Brew Historic Brewing Page, sorry, 
the address would help: http://sca_brew.homestead.com.

Nathan Moore




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:26:07 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Re: RE: But The Party Ends For Rick


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Jeff sez....

> Our esteemed janitor "Pat Babcock" <babcockp at mediaone.net> asks

Hey! I'm not esteemed! I'm escool most of the time. OK. Admissibly I get a
little es-hot-under-the-collar, but not often am I esteemed. OK? So let's
keep that one straight. I'm not esteemed.

Anyway, both Jeff and Dave Lamotte point out what should be obvious to the
casual observer, but I don't believe in casual time - no sir! If I'm working
overtime, I get paid for it. Even when using my beloved racking cane, I've
seen the effect that Jeff speaks of (though I dare say My pit is usually a
wee bit bigger than a quarter. Maybe the size of a small coffee can lid -
not worth as much as a quarter, but much bigger.)

And, yeah, my bottling bucket has its spigot about an inch or so off the
bottom. But, hell! If you can't make a decent siphon, you shouldn't be home
brewing, in my opinion. All these shortcuts - malted barley (you should grow
and malt your own!), ready to pitch yeasts (hell! You should go out in the
field an isolate a useable strain), gas stoves... Need I say more? Huh? Shut
up, you say? LUDDITE? ME? OK, now you've done it! I'm getting all esteemed
up...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:14:09 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: temps/more ...

Lou Heavner sez ...
>   you must always take into account the amount of heat your mash tun
>   will absorb. Typically, this will only be 1 or 2 degrees fahrenheit,
>    but will vary from system to system.

Using the word "must" makes you dogmatic on this forum Lou.  I agree
tho',and add that the it's more like 5F if you are making 5g batches in a
cellar cool sanke.  Of course as a resident librarian I should point out
that heat of malt hydration is also a measurable factor at the HB level.
- --

Another poster mentioned 1F to 1.5F per minute being a "good" rate of
increase during the mash.  My POV is that the commercial rate of 2C
(3.6F)/min is a good rate, but if you are trying to skip over the
headkilling proteolytic region you'll want to go faster yet.  Consider a hot
water infusion to get you to 60+C.

- ---

Dave Burley sez ...
>>Jeff also says:
>>
>>An interesting sidelilght, even though I get decent (not great) hot break
>>in the kettle, which is pretty well filtered out by the hop bed, I always
>>get a good deal more hot break in the canned wort,
>
>I don't know how you determined this, but I suspect it is the hot break
>compactness that is different.

Dave may well be right, but the visual difference the break from pCooked to
regular boil is shocking.  Perhaps the added temp improves the protein
coagulation, or as Dave suggests the (lack of) mechanical action making
bigger 'globs'.

- ---
BTW - some poor soul asked a week+ ago about leaving break in the fermentor
for the yeast to munch on.  The shortest answer is, 'It's in the archives'.
Letting the yeast get a taste of break has been commercially practiced with
varying results.  UFAs are indeed good for yeast, and I have recently read
that trace metals (zinc, copper) that yeast absolutely need, are largely
removed in break, and that yeast can use these from break.  The break also
includes CO2 nucleation sites.  The downside is that break UFAs also
increase fusel oil production and any carryover from the fermentor decreases
head.

Bottom line: break material is good for growing yeast, but not ideal for
making beer.

 -S




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---