---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Question for Dr Cone ("Matt Hollingsworth")
  RE:  Pump Problems ("William Stewart")
  Pivo mislead. ("Stephen Alexander")
  various and sundry (Jim Adwell)
  2 questions (PVanslyke)
  Reminder!  Peach State Entries due this week! ("John Stegenga")
  Running Out Of Skunk Oil ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Denver Brewpubs/Brewery/Beer Stores ("H. Dowda")
  RE: Roberts RE: Jeff's queation on Iodophor (DakBrew)
  Re: Jeff's question on Iodophor (Jeff Renner)
  Re: First Batch, Low Efficiency (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Brewing water (Jeff Renner)
  Lager starters (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Pump for hot wort ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures. ("Jeremy J. Arntz")
  John Bull Wheat Extract ("Jake Zaagman")
  AHA Nationals (Michael Rasmussen)
  Kolsch, Phil's lauter tun (ALABREW)
  Clayton Cone question (WayneM38)
  =?utf-7?Q?K+APY-lsch_astringency?= ("Pauline M. Espino Romero")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Pre-boil topping off ("Brian Dixon.")
  Floral Aroma, recipes (John Roe)
  An apology, A wine question, Another aplolgy (Dan Listermann)
  secondaries and conditioning (Clark)
  Yeast Q's- Marc Sedam- Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 21 Apr 2000 11:59:37 -0700
From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart at spiritone.com>
Subject: Question for Dr Cone

Hello and thanks for all the good info you've been giving to the forum.

To start with, a quote from George Fix's book, "An Analysis of Brewing
Techniques"

With regards to Whitbread ale yeast:

"In recent years, some versions have mysteriously lost their ability to
metabolize trisaccharides, like maltotriose.  This leads to an abnormally
fast fermentation that comes to an abrupt halt once apparent attenuation
approaches 60-65%."

I seem to have run across this.  I used Wyeast 1098, which is a Whitbread
yeast and had this happen.  I pitched a very large starter (3 qts) into wort
while it was very active.  It started showing signs of activity within 5
hours and was at high krauesen within 8 hours or so.  The beer fermented
very vigorously for about 48 hours or so, then stopped dead and dropped out
of suspension.  The wort in question had started at 1.072 and only got down
to 1.025.  I left it for another week, and the gravity was still the same.
I repitched some Wyeast 1056 to finish the job, which it did, getting it
down to 1.017.

I'm not sure if this happened because of an inability to ferment Maltotriose
or if this particular strain doesn't like high gravities.  The wort was
treated well, maintained at constant temps around 69, oxygenated well.

Have you run across this phenomenon?  Any insight about this?

Thanks,

 -Matt


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:43:27 -0400
From: "William Stewart" <estewart at idt.net>
Subject: RE:  Pump Problems

In HBD #3305 Donald Lake contributed the following (in part):

From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: RE:  Pump Problems

" Bill at Moving Brews was kind enough to spend some time with me on the
phone to give me tips on pushing the hot water.

1. Make sure the intake to the pump is fully flooded
2. Close off the out valve before starting the pump
3.  Start the pump and then slowly (and I mean SLOWLY!!) crack the out
valve to build up pressure
4. Wait, wait and wait "

      The  pump body must be flooded.   An impediment on the discharge side
may hamper that from happening.  Opening the discharge valve slowly has
nothing to do with building up pressure.  It does help discharge any
remaining bubbles, and most importantly it helps prevent any possibility of
a  sudden shock of suction on the grain bed.  There is no need to wait for
anything.  If its going to run properly, it will run properly right away.
If its not working properly, its best to turn it off the pump and solve the
problem.

"    Then, given the slow rate of flow (much much slower
than pumping cool water), it can take another 25 mins to fill the 10 gal
container.

    As you can tell,  performance of the pump ....does not meet my
expectations.
 According to Bill, there is nothing wrong with it - its just the limitation
of the materials & technology
(and maybe my technique).  I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of
why the pump struggles with hot water."

    There is clearly something seriously wrong with these results.  Ten
gallons in 25 minutes is 0.4 gallons per minute. At 8 feet, there should be
more than 500 percent better performance than is occurring.  There are no
relevant limitations for pump materials or technology under brewing
conditions that could cause such a diminished result.  Any mechanical device
may fail, but there is a one-year warranty on every pump.  Our experience is
that a pump which is functioning properly during the warranty period keeps
on performing well for years.


Bill Stewart
Moving Brews
pumps at movingbrews.com
www.movingbrews.com



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:50:27 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pivo mislead.

Dr.Pivo sez ...
>A "special thanks" for a particularly detailed report from Gillian Crafton.

Is that Gillian Grafton (with a 'G') of the UK HBlist ?  Better stay clear
of her Doc.  She's a notorious technobrewer who has even advocated  adding
ascorbic acid to beer to prevent oxidative damage, and a wide array of haze
control methods.  I suspect she knows her way around a library too.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:39:44 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: various and sundry

Low alcohol/Non-alcoholic beer

Mike, what a clever idea; I can't think of a better use for O'Douls.

Ron and Sharon write about the Cardamom Patent:

>Wow {several times}

Before we jump off into the deep end here, someone ( preferably many
someones) need to do a properly controlled experiment;  I'm convinced it
works, but until my results are confirmed or refuted by others, it's just
anecdotal evidence.  I will be doing a more rigourous experiment sometime
in the near future. Anyone else up for it?

>>brewing, as with any worth while endevour in life,
>>follows the "90/10" rule.  That is, 90% of your effort
>>will be spent reaching the last 10% of your goal.

>I always thought it was "90% of the posts come from
>10% of the subscribers." Or something like that.

Then there's Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap.  
No, wait, wrong digest. :)

Now repeat after me:

Science is a tool, not a religion.
Science is a tool, not a religion.
Science is a tool, not a religion.

Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:20:47 EDT
From: PVanslyke at aol.com
Subject: 2 questions

Good morning,
1.  What you're describing is the "Fermentap" device. One of our members 
(Brewers In the Endicott Region - BIER) purchased one of these devices last 
summer. He, at that time, decided the idea was good but not well executed. 
Basically the yeast harvesting is a problem as the angle of the carboy is not 
acute enough for the yeast to fall to the neck (in the inverted position).
2.  While I do not use an aluminum pot, I have read many posts on the 
subject. Never anything negative. In my opinion, if the solution to the 
problem fits your budget and advances the hobby of your choice, go for it.

Paul VanSlyke >> brewin' and relaxin' in Deposit, N


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:23:06 -0400
From: "John Stegenga" <john at stegenga.net>
Subject: Reminder!  Peach State Entries due this week!

Just a reminder - Entries for the Peach State Brew-Off 2000 are due by April
28, 2000.

Judge registrations and steward forms should also be submitted ASAP - if
you can, email them to Coverthops at yahoo.com

Please see our website for details!

http://www.geocities.com/redusc/psbo2000.html

Thanks All!

John




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 22:34:02 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Running Out Of Skunk Oil

Jeff Renner writes :
>Well, I'm not the baron, but he's probably flying on the other side >of the
>continent (as far away from the Kiwis as possible, right, Phil?),

Jeff has never forgiven me for not picking him up at the Burradoo train
station but it is a fact that these blasted New Zealanders keep sending me
to the other side of the continent. Even at Easter. Have they no soul? But I
am just back, after an all night trip. What does one do at the front of an
aeroplane for five hours? Well I sit and think up homebrewing possibilities.
I have solved many homebrewing problems in this time. Last night I was
thinking of the "jumping immersion chiller" which Doc Pivo invented and from
this I came up with a better idea for the use of my rapid cooling parallel
immersion chiller. I am pleased to say that Marilyn leaves me alone at
40,000 ft. That isn't to say I haven't seen a few "green spiders" up there.
St Elmo's Fire will liven up the windscreen enough to drive a drunk to
sobriety!

But on returning home I am not sure if I have enough skunk oil for all
offending parties on the HBD. I'm going to let Pat off on the basis that he
did bow and scrape after daring to question me. But Dave Burley is
definitely going to be in for a dose after spelling Burradoo as Burabadoo.
This is the ultimate in insolence!

Rick Magnan started off okay but when he suggested I was pulling back from
the B.S. in books, I was in a rage once again. Double dose for you Rick! You
really aren't going to enjoy your stay here in Burradoo at all.

I guess I don't need to say much more about fermenting in plastic except
that it is interesting to observe that in Australia this is certainly the
starting point for most brewers. I gather in the USA the glass carboy is
much more the norm. Despite Pat's passion for his racking cane, I'm glad I
don't need to muck about with all that syphoning. Plastic would certainly
not be the choice of purists but so what? I never found the need to change
and was relieved to hear Dave Burley ferments in a trash bin. He can go me
for my irreverent boiling practises but he's gotta be pleased with my
ferment.

Mind you, after Dave's been fed the last of the skunk oil, I don't think
he'll be much pleased with anything!

Cheers
Phil







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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Denver Brewpubs/Brewery/Beer Stores

Will be in Denver this week.  What are the 'don't
miss' brewpubs?  Any breweries giving morning tours
(ha)?  Name of a good beer store?  Be at the Adam's
Mark without a car.

email fine.  Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:06:11 EDT
From: DakBrew at aol.com
Subject: RE: Roberts RE: Jeff's queation on Iodophor

Robert is this a direct quote? 

>>He said that the solution should be renewed when the amber color fades, or 
after 24 hours ... whichever comes first.<<

If it is I would interpret the word Renewed to mean small amounts of Iodophor 
added to bring the solution back up to 12 of 25 PPM. Most homebrew shops sell 
test strips for testing iodophor solutions. 

Dan K



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:10:46 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Jeff's question on Iodophor

Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com> wrote about my question on keeping
iodophor (thanks, Bob) and suggested:

>Perhaps you
>could test the efficacy of older iodophor solution by spraying it on a
>growth media, (agar), then innoculating the agar

There are test strips for iodine solutions.  William's Brewing
http://www.williams.com carries these for $3.90 for 100 (item E56) that
read 12.5, 25 and 50 ppm.  I suppose I should buy some.  I haven't been
able to find them locally.  I checked my restuarant supply house, but they
carry only dhlorine test strips.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:26:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: First Batch, Low Efficiency

>My mash lasted 75-80 mins. and I never got an positive conversion test from
>Iodine.

As your homebrew store guy said, iodine tests can be hard to read.  I'd
trust time and temperature.  With modern malts you'll do fine.  However, I
wonder if your temperatures were ideal for good efficiency:

>My mash temps: Start 145 F , 5 mins added water
> to raise temp. 152 F, 30 mins. 145 F, 45 mins. 143 F,
>60 mins. 135 F added water raise temp to 145 F, 70 mins 140 F
>Total Mash Water Volume;  at  Start 1.25,  at  Final 1.50-1.75

It looks like you had a poorly insulated mash tun.  It isn't clear to me
from the way you reported you mash temps if it was 152 just after you added
the water or after 30 minutes.  If the former, then this could be part of
your problem, and would lead to an over attenuated wort, especially for a
style like an Irish red.  If is it the latter, then you are probably doing
OK, although it would be good to aim for longer at  temps above 152 or so
for the style.  But since we don't know how high your mash was after you
added the hot water, it's impossible to judge.  At any rate, once it
dropped to 145, it was probably pointless to continue the mash as the
temperature dropped.  It would have been better to have either raised it
with hot water (or a decoction) or just ended it.

This leads to the next problem - a cold (and fast) runoff.  At this
temperature (140F), you are going to get lower solubility and perhaps
higher wort viscosity, and potentially lower efficiency.

As it ended up, though, you got a decent OG at 1.045.  You'll probably do
better next time.  Be sure to preheat your mash tun, wrap it in blankets if
it isn't well insulated, keep the temperature over 150F (or even 153) for
at least 30 minutes, 60 is better, try to keep the temperature of the
runoff higher, use more malt if necessary, and have fun.

>"Draft beer , not people."

That brings back memories.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:39:21 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Brewing water

William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> asked for advice on Burton
water.  I'll leave the answer to AJ and others who are more knowledgable
than I, but:

>I'm working on a Bitters recipe

I think you meant bitter.  Bitters is (are?) an aromatic infusion of herbs
that is added in dashes to Manhattans, Old Fashioneds and other cocktails.
I'll bet you already knew that, though.

BTW, for a wonderful Manhattan, which is the highest level a cocktail can
rise to IMHO, try

*2 oz. straight rye or bourbon (not blended American or Canadian) - I
really like Beam straight rye, my wife likes Rebel Yell, a nice wheated
bourbon
*1 oz. good qualtiy sweet vermouth (I like Boissiere)
*2 dashes Angostura Bitters

Stir 30 seconds in shaker with ice, pour into chilled cocktail glass, serve
with a maraschino cherry.

Drink, rinse, repeat if necessary.

For more on this subject, subscribe to Distilled Beverage Digest (send
"subscribe" to dbd-request@hbd.org).  It's been quiet for a while, so I
also offer this as an invitation to subscribers to post something.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:08:24 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
Subject: Lager starters

> If I use the same procedure for a lager, at what temperature
> should I ferment the "starter" batch? Is room temp OK, or
> should I keep it at the same temp I plan to ferment the main
> batch (around 50F)?

This looks fine. Fermenting the starter at room temp is a good idea --
you're shooting for yeast growth, not beer flavor. If you can provide
periodic (or even constant) aeration and agitation, that's even
better, but certainly not a requirement. 

Personally, I use a MINIMUM starter size of 1.5 gallons for every 6
gallons of beer when I do a lager. Of course I decant the spent
starter beer from the slurry prior to pitching. Of late I crash cool
my starters prior to decanting and have had no problems, although some
may recommend against this. 

Typically, I decant the spent beer the night before pitching and add a
quart of fresh wort to the cake. With the fridge now set at around my
target fermentation temp, the starter is usually at high kreusen by
pitching time. I'm not sure that this last step is really necessary or
not, but I do it out of habit. Hope this helps -- TAFKAKS
**************************************
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:12:11 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: Pump for hot wort

Jaxson28 at aol.com asks about a pump for brewing.

We sell the same pump that comes with ABS RIMS. You will find other pumps
also from Moving Brews etc. I can only speak for the pump that we have tried
and abused and are very happy with: the Magne-Boost from March
Manufacturing.

We use our ABS RIMS daily for 10-20 gallon batches, way more volume than the
average homebrewer.  I brought in one replacement pump just to have on hand
in case we needed it, since the RIMS is the heart of our ReadyBrew kit
production. But I haven't needed it. The Magne-Boost pump is practically
maintenance free. It has two lubrication points, but it just keeps ticking
along.  I clogged it only once by pumping our remnants of a batch without a
false bottom. It was the work of a few minutes to clear the impeller- needed
only a screwdriver. This little pump works overtime RIMSing and pumping wort
up to our 8ft high kettles every day. It pumps 5 gallons/minute, and can
handle up to 230 degrees Fahrenheit. It has a sealless leak proof magnetic
impeller drive. We sell it at $240 Canadian. Full details at
http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment.html

hope this is useful info,


Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:47:37 -0400
From: "Jeremy J. Arntz" <arntz at surfree.com>
Subject: Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures.

Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures.

I appreciate the responses I've received to my post. Thanks to Bill Frazier
he
pointed out that my efficiency didn't seem to bad to him when he did the
calculations
(72%). So, I went back to my calculations and found that I had made an
error. I had
prepared all my data a head of time and had figured the efficiency for the
collection of
2.5 gallons not 3.0 gallons. I also had posted the wrong SG which was 1.040
not 1.045
not a big difference, but and error on my part. So my conclusion is that my
efficiency was
in the neighborhood of 72% and Bill had figured. So much for my preplanning
it just
confused me.

However I definitely need to work on my mashing procedures. From what folks
have been
 telling me I need to insulate my mash tun which is something I realized and
attempted to
do, but I will (and have been thing about) adding additional insulating
measures. So, that I
can keep to a mash schedule with more precision. I could also use some
advice as to mashing
 schedules. I'm trying to do a single step mash infusion and for what I have
read that involves
holding the temp  at  around 152F for 60 min You can also add a mash out at
170F for 10mins.
Does this seem right? Also when you do these "steps" do you add less strike
water to the initial
 mash to allow for the addition of temp raising water? I believe that I
undershot the amount of
 volume added to get the desired recovered volume (3.5 gals). It seems to me
that I could use
around 5 gallons of combined strike/sparge water and recover between 3.5 and
4 gallons of
good "sweet wort". After completing my first full boil I realized that
evaporation rates could be
a bit higher than what I am used to with partial boils. I am assuming that
my sparge temp of
between 170F and 175F is good. The general conclusion is that my sparge time
could be
 longer. I will work on extending my sparge times. It's mainly a flow
control problem.
Any thoughts on the Iodine test is it worth even using?

Thanks as always for everyone's help!

Comments and suggestions are always appreciated!

Jeremy (arntz at surfree.com)
"Draft beer , not people."
(:-o)<><////////>



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:31:06 -0400
From: "Jake Zaagman" <jzaagnm1 at tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: John Bull Wheat Extract

     For some reason I cannot find any info on John Bull Wheat Extract, the
bulk liquid extract. I would like to use the info in suds for setting up
recipes with it, would I figure it as regular light malt syurp?

    What is the gravity and color of this? I have an old Zymurgy from 1986
which lists the gravitys and color of malt extracts - but there is no
listing for wheat extracts.

Jake



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at barley.patch.com>
Subject: AHA Nationals

Hey everybody,

The entries for the Northwest Regional AHA Nationals are checked in and resting
peacfully in Steinbarts hop cooler.  There are 385 beers.  Judging is on May 6
and 7 at Columbia Distributing in Portland, Oregon.

We still have plenty of room for judges and stewards (hint, hint)

If you're considering pulling a chair up to the table and tasting some
of the finest homebrew in the world take a moment now to sign up at

	http://www.oregonbrewcrew.com/nhc2knw.html

The page is oriented to Judge registration.  If you wish to be a steward
just say so in the comment section at the bottom.


- -- 

  Michael Rasmussen patch.com administrator


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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:09:48 -0500
From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Kolsch, Phil's lauter tun

Rick Gontarek writes about Kolsch astringency with the use of Weyermann
Pils and 10% wheat. He doesn't tell us his hopping rate though. I would
find it hard to believe that the Weyermann Pils would give astringency
considering how carefully you sparged, but could you have oversparged?
What is your efficiency? The local complaint about Weyermann is that it
is too malty. IMHO, it makes a great Pils so a Kolsch should also be nice.

Jeremy writes about problems using a clamp on a Phil's lauter tun. Try a
3/8" in-line valve. It gives better flow control and can be removed for
cleaning. 

Kim
- -- 
Kim and Sun Ae Thomson
ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew
mailto:alabrew at mindspring.com
Birmingham, AL
Home Beer and Wine Making Specialists




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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:19:50 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Clayton Cone question

First thanks to Dr. Cone for answering questions on the HBD and special 
thanks to Rob for all of your efforts in getting him here. His answers are 
worth saving for future reference.

Two questions.

1) I am a proud owner of a magnetic stir plate and a few 2000 ml flasks. Can 
you briefly outline a yeast starter regime for building up yeast slurries for 
5 and 10 gallon batches?

2) You have mentioned adding yeast nutrient to increase yeast growth in 
fermenting wort. I have added packets of outdated/old bakers yeast to the 
last 15 mins of the boil to help in this area.  Will using bakers yeast or 
health food store brewers yeast in this manner add anything to yeast growth 
in fermenting wort in place of a commercial product such as Fermaid? (sp?)

Thanks again.

Wayne
Botanist Brewer
Milwaukee 


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:26:27 +0200
From: "Pauline M. Espino Romero" <nc-espinopa at netcologne.de>
Subject: =?utf-7?Q?K+APY-lsch_astringency?=

Hello All,
      Richard Gontarek writes to ask if the astringent taste he has noticed
in his batch of K+APY-lsch is something that is appropriate to the style. As a
resident of Cologne for over 2 years, and a frequent sampler of the many
different K+APY-lsch available to the thirsty beer lover, I can assure you that
K+APY-lsch should not have an astringent taste. When sampled fresh and hopefully
from Fass (that is a 10 - 40 liter gravity fed keg) K+APY-lsch should be as
smooth and drinkable as you could hope a beer to be. Glass, after glass,
after glass. I find that because of the lower hopping rates and carbonation
levels than in Pils, a K+APY-lsch session can last much longer into the night.
         I have also read the style guidelines where they describe K+APY-lsch as
dry. I suppose that this is true, because it has a high level of
attenuation, however , to my taste buds there is also a bit of residual
sweetness in K+APY-lsch. In fact I have spoken to a number of Germans who do not
like K+APY-lsch because they find it too sweet for there taste(although no one
from Cologne would admit to that, they are very loyal to their local beer)
       Your best bet is too try to make the trip across the pond and sample
some for yourself. I do not think that it is possible to imitate the taste
or character of something only from reading a recipe and set of guidelines.
Unfortunately for K+APY-lsch even if you could get a hold of a few bottles to
sample they are really not very much like the beer one finds fresh on tap at
most of the local pubs or brauhouses.
       I will leave it  for one of the more experienced brewers on this
forum to try to help you find out why you are tasting what you are in your
beer
                           Hope this helps
                                                             John Masters
                                                   Humbly refining his
brewing skills in a foreign land.



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:08:36 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

Dr. Cone's Yeast Questions and Answers.....
     Well, I hope that you will agree with me that we have enjoyed an
informative visit from Dr. Clayton Cone...personally, as with the visit we
had from the Siebel staff last year, I find that exposure to folks such as
these 'a trip up Olympus,' a chance to learn at the feet of the masters of
our hobby/industry. Thank you, Sir!
     As I stated before this event, the cut off date for questions to be
submitted was with the publication of Friday's Digest. But, just to show you
what a wonderful world it is, I will attempt to get them done nonetheless,
by Dr. Cone, or by an equally prestigious personage. There are still a few
questions that remain unanswered...and I assure you that those submitted on
time...through normal channels will be completed....(I have had a few
directed to my e-mail, rather than the digest...and those that had beer
content were returned to the HBD).....but the fact is that Dr. Cone has
seriously enjoyed this effort, but has tried to be very meticulous...and
when there is the slightest thought that new research has been mentioned
somewhere...(now, where was that?)...he has placed them in a draft queue....
     And unknown to most...Dr. Cone was hospitalized overnight on
Thursday.......he is back home on Friday...but, as you might suspect....such
events have derailed his work schedule....
     Add to this, the fact that he must leave on Tuesday for a European work
trip...and well...you might imagine that his plate is very full right now.
     So...bottom line...if your question hasn't been answered
yet...relax...and brew a beer....it will arrive!
     Again, Thanks, Dr. Cone!

JG

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:27:59 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon." <briandixon at home.com>
Subject: Pre-boil topping off

Especially when brewing lighter gravity brews, the sparging is often stopped
due to low gravity prior to my boil pot being as full as it needs to be.
The post-boil volume will either turn out low and need topping off, or I can
top off prior to the boil and won't have to top off in the fermenter.
Obviously, topping off before the boil has the advantage of minimizing
chance of infection.  My question is this: If I top off prior the boil, does
it matter if I do it by pouring boiling water into a boiling pot of wort, or
is it ok to pour cooler pre-boiled (day before) water into the hot liquor
prior to the boil?  My concern is that if I pour cooler water into
non-boiling, but hot (125 F to 140 F) wort, will I be adding air at a bad
time and cause HSA?  My usual practice is to bring the hot liquor to a boil,
then to pour in the measured amount of water, which has been heated to
boiling also (so I don't have to wait long for the wort to return to a boil,
if at all).  It would be nice to be able to skip the 'boil the top-off
water' step prior to topping off ... comments?  Note: I lose 2 gallons of
water in a 90 minute boil, so I need a minimum of 7.5 gallons of wort prior
to the boil ... I prefer closer to 8 gallons so I have around 6 prior to
siphoning.  This makes up for wort lost in the hops.  I scale recipes up to
take account for this and have good results (OG is as predicted, volume in
primary is between 5 and 5.5 gallons.)

Brian

 N44 35' 54"    W123 14' 56"




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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:42:30 -0400
From: John Roe <Sensei_John_Roe at compuserve.com>
Subject: Floral Aroma, recipes

I've been drinking my first batch of beer,
an extract kit for IPA by William's.
It uses English Fuggle and Hallertau hops,
and Wyeast #1084.

Primary ferment was 10 days at 68 degrees, seconday
was 6 days with isinglass finings at 66 degrees.
It is clean, clear and just fine, except...

I find it has more of a floral aroma and less of a malty/bitter
flavour than I would prefer.

I am interested in what causes floral aromas, and how to avoid them.
 ...at least unless I want them...

Hops?  Ferment temp?   Trub removal? (I ended up with most of
the hop pellets in primary)  Conditioning?  Temperature profile
when conditioning? Any tricks of the trade?

I'm especially interested in a "clone" extract/steeped grains recipe
for a Portland's Woodstock India Pale Ale, my current favorite IPA.
I'm also interested in a clone of Widmer Brother's Hefeweizen, a new
discovery for me, and a wonderful one.

Thanks!

John Roe
Laguna Hills, Ca
www.martialartsacademy.org

"have the good manners not to hit
the man until he's your husband,
and until he can hit you back"

 ... From the movie "The Quietman"






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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:21:10 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: An apology, A wine question, Another aplolgy

I am very sorry to come before this august assemblage and bother you with a
non beer question, but I know of nowhere else to turn.  

For those of you who "have had more chemistry than the average brewer" a
question.  One of my customers botched a 3 gallon batch of Vintner's
Harvest elderberry wine by misreading the instructions.  He was supposed to
make a sulfite solution with 5 tsp of sodium bisulfite in a cup of water. 
The instructions call for 3 tsp of this solution to sterilize the must.  He
used 3 tsp of sodium bisulfite powder to sterlize the must.  Needless to
say, it won't ferment despite a prolonged peroid of venting.  Is there any
hope for the must?  Is there a way to reduce the sulfer?  Can he make jelly
/ syrup out of it?

Again, my apologies for disturbing the beer force field.

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com   72723.1707 at compuserve.com


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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:44:40 -0400
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: secondaries and conditioning

Hi list,

I haven't posted in a while and while I am here I would like to thank all
who responded to my questions about mashing several months ago.  Thank you!
 This list is such a unique resource.  There really isn't anything quite
like it for brewers anywhere else.

To the beer.  I have several all grain brews under my belt now.  It is so
much more satisfying to make beer from grain than extract, not to mention
the significant cost savings.  My kids got me a reconditioned corny keg for
Christmas and I plan on putting it into service soon.  I usually let my
bottled beer sit at least two weeks (all right, maybe one week) before I
sample it.  I find that it usually gets better as it sits, ages conditions
or whatever you want to call it.  The carbonation will be there, but the
flavors change over time, usually for the better.  If I keg my beer and
pressurize it, I know it can be ready to drink in a day or two, but what
about the conditioning factor of letting it sit for an extended time?  Does
the keg need to sit under pressure for the flavors to develop?  Priming
before bottling is done to enable the yeast to evolve CO2.  Would kegs also
get primed as an alternative to being pressurized, or is this not a safe
practice?  My bottles sit in the basement at about 60*F protected from
light.  Can my kegged beer sit in this temperature or does it need to be
chilled?

Secondaries.  I have started putting my beer in a secondary.  I am not
always able to bottle when I should and the secondary keeps the beer
cleaner and eliminates a potential flavor problem from autolysis.  I have a
bock that sat in primary for 9 days and then was transferred to a
secondary.  It has been 5 days now and I still get a bubble in the airlock
every 15 seconds.  How long should I let this go?  The recipe called for
ten days in the primary and then bottle, but I am tending to follow what
has worked in the past and I don't think this stuff is ready to bottle yet.
 It's off in a cool corner and I will probably wait until there is only
positive pressure on the airlock without bubbling before I bottle.  Any
comments?

Odds and ends.  I try to keep things clean without being too anal about it.
 There haven't been any infections so far.  I use bleach,  plenty of water
and common sense.  I thoroughly rinse my bottles after emptying and when I
bottle I always brush them in a bleach water solution and then rinse again
with One Step.  Clean as you go.  Never let anything like yeast or hops dry
onto anything.  Why work hard to clean when you don't have to?  Speaking of
yeast, I saved some ale yeast from a porter, just poured the dregs of a
carboy into a very clean mayonaise jar and let it settle out.  I poured off
3/4 of the liquid and trub the next day and added some boiled and cooled
wort and put it back in the fridge.  I did the same thing a week later and
just left it.  I wanted to use this yeast yesterday for an IPA so I poured
off the liquid again and added boiled cooled wort and it took off like a
bandit.  This after about 4 or 5 weeks just sitting tightly closed in the
fridge.  I doubled it again and pitched the whole thing.  Did I do good or
have I taken a big chance of adding bad bugs to this batch?  Again,
everything was clean and looked and smelled fine.

Last item.  Forgot to add Irish moss to the above mentioned IPA.  Does
anyone care to comment on isinglass?  How effective?  How used?  Worth the
trouble?  I don't mind how my beer looks when I drink it, but I am always
trying to move to the next level of competency.  I love this hobby.

Thanks in advance for all the help,

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, NY

Drinking less, but enjoying it more!
   



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Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:48:25 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Yeast Q's- Marc Sedam- Dr. Cone

From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: more yeast questions for Dr. Cone
I am so blown away by the quality of Dr. Cone's responses that
I'll pose another:
Could you please comment on the ability for "regular" ale and
lager yeasts to ferment out wort to levels >12% abv in the final
product?  Is there a good way to handle the yeast/fermentation to
ensure it doesn't stop working early (besides a healthy
starter)?  Are certain beer yeasts better than others for this?
Thanks,
Marc



Marc,
I have no experience with high alcohol lager yeast fermentation. Most ale
yeast can easily ferment up to 12% abv  as long as it is healthy and happy.
The pH of wort (4.0+) is optimum for this level of alcohol production (wine
with a pH as low as 3.0, is stressful on the yeast and yet they easily
reach 12 - 15 % abv.).

 You must have 30+ ppm dissolved Oxygen. The best time to begin adding the
Oxygen is around the 14th hour when the yeast is hungriest for the O2.  If
all the O2 is added at the beginning, a substantial amount of it will be
wasted.  There is nothing sacred about the 14th. hour.  The O2 should be
introduced before the yeast reaches the stationary phase.  The O2 is
necessary for the yeast to produce lipids which act as a growth factor in
the first stage of the fermentation and protect the yeast against the
alcohol toxicity near the end of the fermentation.

The yeast will probably require much more nutrients than are normally found
in wort.  You should consider adding about 1 gram  Fermaid K and 2 - 4
grams Diammonium phosphate  / gallon of wort. The Fermaid should be added
with the yeast and the DAP should be added in increments over the first
half of the fermentation.

There should be no pressure build up. Saturation and CO2 supersaturation
can be toxic.   Frequent stirring minimizes this.

It takes at least 20 - 21 % fermentable sugars to produce 12% abv.  Mashing
techniques using malt enzymes, alpha and beta amylase will not achieve
this. You will need the addition of adjuncts like corn syrup, table sugar
(sucrose) and or glucose (for some reason yeast likes glucose better than
high fructose syrups).  In order to reach 20 - 21% fermentable sugars and
still have the mouthfeel of beer  you will need several % unfermentable
extract at the end.  This will boost the initial gravity up to 1.100 -
1.110. This increase in gravity places a little added stress on the yeast.
However, a healthy yeast should be able to handle it with ease.  In fact a
very healthy yeast can handle gravity's over 1.179.

Having said all of this, you may occasionally run across a yeast that does
not handle high alcohol, no matter how nice you are to it.  In my limited
experience with 20+ % abv  fermentations, I have not found one yet that
does not reach 16 - 18% abv.  I suppose tomorrow I will be confronted with
one, or you readers will inundate me with strains that wont make the grade!

Clayton Cone



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