HOMEBREW Digest #3307 Mon 24 April 2000

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Question for Dr Cone ("Matt Hollingsworth")
  RE:  Pump Problems ("William Stewart")
  Pivo mislead. ("Stephen Alexander")
  various and sundry (Jim Adwell)
  2 questions (PVanslyke)
  Reminder!  Peach State Entries due this week! ("John Stegenga")
  Running Out Of Skunk Oil ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Denver Brewpubs/Brewery/Beer Stores ("H. Dowda")
  RE: Roberts RE: Jeff's queation on Iodophor (DakBrew)
  Re: Jeff's question on Iodophor (Jeff Renner)
  Re: First Batch, Low Efficiency (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Brewing water (Jeff Renner)
  Lager starters (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Pump for hot wort ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures. ("Jeremy J. Arntz")
  John Bull Wheat Extract ("Jake Zaagman")
  AHA Nationals (Michael Rasmussen)
  Kolsch, Phil's lauter tun (ALABREW)
  Clayton Cone question (WayneM38)
  =?utf-7?Q?K+APY-lsch_astringency?= ("Pauline M. Espino Romero")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Pre-boil topping off ("Brian Dixon.")
  Floral Aroma, recipes (John Roe)
  An apology, A wine question, Another aplolgy (Dan Listermann)
  secondaries and conditioning (Clark)
  Yeast Q's- Marc Sedam- Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 21 Apr 2000 11:59:37 -0700 From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart at spiritone.com> Subject: Question for Dr Cone Hello and thanks for all the good info you've been giving to the forum. To start with, a quote from George Fix's book, "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" With regards to Whitbread ale yeast: "In recent years, some versions have mysteriously lost their ability to metabolize trisaccharides, like maltotriose. This leads to an abnormally fast fermentation that comes to an abrupt halt once apparent attenuation approaches 60-65%." I seem to have run across this. I used Wyeast 1098, which is a Whitbread yeast and had this happen. I pitched a very large starter (3 qts) into wort while it was very active. It started showing signs of activity within 5 hours and was at high krauesen within 8 hours or so. The beer fermented very vigorously for about 48 hours or so, then stopped dead and dropped out of suspension. The wort in question had started at 1.072 and only got down to 1.025. I left it for another week, and the gravity was still the same. I repitched some Wyeast 1056 to finish the job, which it did, getting it down to 1.017. I'm not sure if this happened because of an inability to ferment Maltotriose or if this particular strain doesn't like high gravities. The wort was treated well, maintained at constant temps around 69, oxygenated well. Have you run across this phenomenon? Any insight about this? Thanks, -Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:43:27 -0400 From: "William Stewart" <estewart at idt.net> Subject: RE: Pump Problems In HBD #3305 Donald Lake contributed the following (in part): From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net> Subject: RE: Pump Problems " Bill at Moving Brews was kind enough to spend some time with me on the phone to give me tips on pushing the hot water. 1. Make sure the intake to the pump is fully flooded 2. Close off the out valve before starting the pump 3. Start the pump and then slowly (and I mean SLOWLY!!) crack the out valve to build up pressure 4. Wait, wait and wait " The pump body must be flooded. An impediment on the discharge side may hamper that from happening. Opening the discharge valve slowly has nothing to do with building up pressure. It does help discharge any remaining bubbles, and most importantly it helps prevent any possibility of a sudden shock of suction on the grain bed. There is no need to wait for anything. If its going to run properly, it will run properly right away. If its not working properly, its best to turn it off the pump and solve the problem. " Then, given the slow rate of flow (much much slower than pumping cool water), it can take another 25 mins to fill the 10 gal container. As you can tell, performance of the pump ....does not meet my expectations. According to Bill, there is nothing wrong with it - its just the limitation of the materials & technology (and maybe my technique). I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of why the pump struggles with hot water." There is clearly something seriously wrong with these results. Ten gallons in 25 minutes is 0.4 gallons per minute. At 8 feet, there should be more than 500 percent better performance than is occurring. There are no relevant limitations for pump materials or technology under brewing conditions that could cause such a diminished result. Any mechanical device may fail, but there is a one-year warranty on every pump. Our experience is that a pump which is functioning properly during the warranty period keeps on performing well for years. Bill Stewart Moving Brews pumps at movingbrews.com www.movingbrews.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:50:27 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pivo mislead. Dr.Pivo sez ... >A "special thanks" for a particularly detailed report from Gillian Crafton. Is that Gillian Grafton (with a 'G') of the UK HBlist ? Better stay clear of her Doc. She's a notorious technobrewer who has even advocated adding ascorbic acid to beer to prevent oxidative damage, and a wide array of haze control methods. I suspect she knows her way around a library too. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:39:44 -0400 From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com> Subject: various and sundry Low alcohol/Non-alcoholic beer Mike, what a clever idea; I can't think of a better use for O'Douls. Ron and Sharon write about the Cardamom Patent: >Wow {several times} Before we jump off into the deep end here, someone ( preferably many someones) need to do a properly controlled experiment; I'm convinced it works, but until my results are confirmed or refuted by others, it's just anecdotal evidence. I will be doing a more rigourous experiment sometime in the near future. Anyone else up for it? >>brewing, as with any worth while endevour in life, >>follows the "90/10" rule. That is, 90% of your effort >>will be spent reaching the last 10% of your goal. >I always thought it was "90% of the posts come from >10% of the subscribers." Or something like that. Then there's Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap. No, wait, wrong digest. :) Now repeat after me: Science is a tool, not a religion. Science is a tool, not a religion. Science is a tool, not a religion. Cheers, Jim Jim's Brewery Pages: http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/ Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:20:47 EDT From: PVanslyke at aol.com Subject: 2 questions Good morning, 1. What you're describing is the "Fermentap" device. One of our members (Brewers In the Endicott Region - BIER) purchased one of these devices last summer. He, at that time, decided the idea was good but not well executed. Basically the yeast harvesting is a problem as the angle of the carboy is not acute enough for the yeast to fall to the neck (in the inverted position). 2. While I do not use an aluminum pot, I have read many posts on the subject. Never anything negative. In my opinion, if the solution to the problem fits your budget and advances the hobby of your choice, go for it. Paul VanSlyke >> brewin' and relaxin' in Deposit, N Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:23:06 -0400 From: "John Stegenga" <john at stegenga.net> Subject: Reminder! Peach State Entries due this week! Just a reminder - Entries for the Peach State Brew-Off 2000 are due by April 28, 2000. Judge registrations and steward forms should also be submitted ASAP - if you can, email them to Coverthops at yahoo.com Please see our website for details! http://www.geocities.com/redusc/psbo2000.html Thanks All! John Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 22:34:02 +1000 From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> Subject: Running Out Of Skunk Oil Jeff Renner writes : >Well, I'm not the baron, but he's probably flying on the other side >of the >continent (as far away from the Kiwis as possible, right, Phil?), Jeff has never forgiven me for not picking him up at the Burradoo train station but it is a fact that these blasted New Zealanders keep sending me to the other side of the continent. Even at Easter. Have they no soul? But I am just back, after an all night trip. What does one do at the front of an aeroplane for five hours? Well I sit and think up homebrewing possibilities. I have solved many homebrewing problems in this time. Last night I was thinking of the "jumping immersion chiller" which Doc Pivo invented and from this I came up with a better idea for the use of my rapid cooling parallel immersion chiller. I am pleased to say that Marilyn leaves me alone at 40,000 ft. That isn't to say I haven't seen a few "green spiders" up there. St Elmo's Fire will liven up the windscreen enough to drive a drunk to sobriety! But on returning home I am not sure if I have enough skunk oil for all offending parties on the HBD. I'm going to let Pat off on the basis that he did bow and scrape after daring to question me. But Dave Burley is definitely going to be in for a dose after spelling Burradoo as Burabadoo. This is the ultimate in insolence! Rick Magnan started off okay but when he suggested I was pulling back from the B.S. in books, I was in a rage once again. Double dose for you Rick! You really aren't going to enjoy your stay here in Burradoo at all. I guess I don't need to say much more about fermenting in plastic except that it is interesting to observe that in Australia this is certainly the starting point for most brewers. I gather in the USA the glass carboy is much more the norm. Despite Pat's passion for his racking cane, I'm glad I don't need to muck about with all that syphoning. Plastic would certainly not be the choice of purists but so what? I never found the need to change and was relieved to hear Dave Burley ferments in a trash bin. He can go me for my irreverent boiling practises but he's gotta be pleased with my ferment. Mind you, after Dave's been fed the last of the skunk oil, I don't think he'll be much pleased with anything! Cheers Phil Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: Denver Brewpubs/Brewery/Beer Stores Will be in Denver this week. What are the 'don't miss' brewpubs? Any breweries giving morning tours (ha)? Name of a good beer store? Be at the Adam's Mark without a car. email fine. Thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:06:11 EDT From: DakBrew at aol.com Subject: RE: Roberts RE: Jeff's queation on Iodophor Robert is this a direct quote? >>He said that the solution should be renewed when the amber color fades, or after 24 hours ... whichever comes first.<< If it is I would interpret the word Renewed to mean small amounts of Iodophor added to bring the solution back up to 12 of 25 PPM. Most homebrew shops sell test strips for testing iodophor solutions. Dan K Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:10:46 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Jeff's question on Iodophor Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com> wrote about my question on keeping iodophor (thanks, Bob) and suggested: >Perhaps you >could test the efficacy of older iodophor solution by spraying it on a >growth media, (agar), then innoculating the agar There are test strips for iodine solutions. William's Brewing http://www.williams.com carries these for $3.90 for 100 (item E56) that read 12.5, 25 and 50 ppm. I suppose I should buy some. I haven't been able to find them locally. I checked my restuarant supply house, but they carry only dhlorine test strips. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:26:55 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: First Batch, Low Efficiency >My mash lasted 75-80 mins. and I never got an positive conversion test from >Iodine. As your homebrew store guy said, iodine tests can be hard to read. I'd trust time and temperature. With modern malts you'll do fine. However, I wonder if your temperatures were ideal for good efficiency: >My mash temps: Start 145 F , 5 mins added water > to raise temp. 152 F, 30 mins. 145 F, 45 mins. 143 F, >60 mins. 135 F added water raise temp to 145 F, 70 mins 140 F >Total Mash Water Volume; at Start 1.25, at Final 1.50-1.75 It looks like you had a poorly insulated mash tun. It isn't clear to me from the way you reported you mash temps if it was 152 just after you added the water or after 30 minutes. If the former, then this could be part of your problem, and would lead to an over attenuated wort, especially for a style like an Irish red. If is it the latter, then you are probably doing OK, although it would be good to aim for longer at temps above 152 or so for the style. But since we don't know how high your mash was after you added the hot water, it's impossible to judge. At any rate, once it dropped to 145, it was probably pointless to continue the mash as the temperature dropped. It would have been better to have either raised it with hot water (or a decoction) or just ended it. This leads to the next problem - a cold (and fast) runoff. At this temperature (140F), you are going to get lower solubility and perhaps higher wort viscosity, and potentially lower efficiency. As it ended up, though, you got a decent OG at 1.045. You'll probably do better next time. Be sure to preheat your mash tun, wrap it in blankets if it isn't well insulated, keep the temperature over 150F (or even 153) for at least 30 minutes, 60 is better, try to keep the temperature of the runoff higher, use more malt if necessary, and have fun. >"Draft beer , not people." That brings back memories. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:39:21 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Brewing water William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> asked for advice on Burton water. I'll leave the answer to AJ and others who are more knowledgable than I, but: >I'm working on a Bitters recipe I think you meant bitter. Bitters is (are?) an aromatic infusion of herbs that is added in dashes to Manhattans, Old Fashioneds and other cocktails. I'll bet you already knew that, though. BTW, for a wonderful Manhattan, which is the highest level a cocktail can rise to IMHO, try *2 oz. straight rye or bourbon (not blended American or Canadian) - I really like Beam straight rye, my wife likes Rebel Yell, a nice wheated bourbon *1 oz. good qualtiy sweet vermouth (I like Boissiere) *2 dashes Angostura Bitters Stir 30 seconds in shaker with ice, pour into chilled cocktail glass, serve with a maraschino cherry. Drink, rinse, repeat if necessary. For more on this subject, subscribe to Distilled Beverage Digest (send "subscribe" to dbd-request@hbd.org). It's been quiet for a while, so I also offer this as an invitation to subscribers to post something. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:08:24 GMT From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty) Subject: Lager starters > If I use the same procedure for a lager, at what temperature > should I ferment the "starter" batch? Is room temp OK, or > should I keep it at the same temp I plan to ferment the main > batch (around 50F)? This looks fine. Fermenting the starter at room temp is a good idea -- you're shooting for yeast growth, not beer flavor. If you can provide periodic (or even constant) aeration and agitation, that's even better, but certainly not a requirement. Personally, I use a MINIMUM starter size of 1.5 gallons for every 6 gallons of beer when I do a lager. Of course I decant the spent starter beer from the slurry prior to pitching. Of late I crash cool my starters prior to decanting and have had no problems, although some may recommend against this. Typically, I decant the spent beer the night before pitching and add a quart of fresh wort to the cake. With the fridge now set at around my target fermentation temp, the starter is usually at high kreusen by pitching time. I'm not sure that this last step is really necessary or not, but I do it out of habit. Hope this helps -- TAFKAKS ************************************** Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:12:11 -0600 From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com> Subject: Pump for hot wort Jaxson28 at aol.com asks about a pump for brewing. We sell the same pump that comes with ABS RIMS. You will find other pumps also from Moving Brews etc. I can only speak for the pump that we have tried and abused and are very happy with: the Magne-Boost from March Manufacturing. We use our ABS RIMS daily for 10-20 gallon batches, way more volume than the average homebrewer. I brought in one replacement pump just to have on hand in case we needed it, since the RIMS is the heart of our ReadyBrew kit production. But I haven't needed it. The Magne-Boost pump is practically maintenance free. It has two lubrication points, but it just keeps ticking along. I clogged it only once by pumping our remnants of a batch without a false bottom. It was the work of a few minutes to clear the impeller- needed only a screwdriver. This little pump works overtime RIMSing and pumping wort up to our 8ft high kettles every day. It pumps 5 gallons/minute, and can handle up to 230 degrees Fahrenheit. It has a sealless leak proof magnetic impeller drive. We sell it at $240 Canadian. Full details at http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment.html hope this is useful info, Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat." ______________________________________________ Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK orders at paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:47:37 -0400 From: "Jeremy J. Arntz" <arntz at surfree.com> Subject: Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures. Efficiency, Errors, and Procedures. I appreciate the responses I've received to my post. Thanks to Bill Frazier he pointed out that my efficiency didn't seem to bad to him when he did the calculations (72%). So, I went back to my calculations and found that I had made an error. I had prepared all my data a head of time and had figured the efficiency for the collection of 2.5 gallons not 3.0 gallons. I also had posted the wrong SG which was 1.040 not 1.045 not a big difference, but and error on my part. So my conclusion is that my efficiency was in the neighborhood of 72% and Bill had figured. So much for my preplanning it just confused me. However I definitely need to work on my mashing procedures. From what folks have been telling me I need to insulate my mash tun which is something I realized and attempted to do, but I will (and have been thing about) adding additional insulating measures. So, that I can keep to a mash schedule with more precision. I could also use some advice as to mashing schedules. I'm trying to do a single step mash infusion and for what I have read that involves holding the temp at around 152F for 60 min You can also add a mash out at 170F for 10mins. Does this seem right? Also when you do these "steps" do you add less strike water to the initial mash to allow for the addition of temp raising water? I believe that I undershot the amount of volume added to get the desired recovered volume (3.5 gals). It seems to me that I could use around 5 gallons of combined strike/sparge water and recover between 3.5 and 4 gallons of good "sweet wort". After completing my first full boil I realized that evaporation rates could be a bit higher than what I am used to with partial boils. I am assuming that my sparge temp of between 170F and 175F is good. The general conclusion is that my sparge time could be longer. I will work on extending my sparge times. It's mainly a flow control problem. Any thoughts on the Iodine test is it worth even using? Thanks as always for everyone's help! Comments and suggestions are always appreciated! Jeremy (arntz at surfree.com) "Draft beer , not people." (:-o)<><////////> Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:31:06 -0400 From: "Jake Zaagman" <jzaagnm1 at tampabay.rr.com> Subject: John Bull Wheat Extract For some reason I cannot find any info on John Bull Wheat Extract, the bulk liquid extract. I would like to use the info in suds for setting up recipes with it, would I figure it as regular light malt syurp? What is the gravity and color of this? I have an old Zymurgy from 1986 which lists the gravitys and color of malt extracts - but there is no listing for wheat extracts. Jake Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at barley.patch.com> Subject: AHA Nationals Hey everybody, The entries for the Northwest Regional AHA Nationals are checked in and resting peacfully in Steinbarts hop cooler. There are 385 beers. Judging is on May 6 and 7 at Columbia Distributing in Portland, Oregon. We still have plenty of room for judges and stewards (hint, hint) If you're considering pulling a chair up to the table and tasting some of the finest homebrew in the world take a moment now to sign up at http://www.oregonbrewcrew.com/nhc2knw.html The page is oriented to Judge registration. If you wish to be a steward just say so in the comment section at the bottom. - -- Michael Rasmussen patch.com administrator Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:09:48 -0500 From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com> Subject: Kolsch, Phil's lauter tun Rick Gontarek writes about Kolsch astringency with the use of Weyermann Pils and 10% wheat. He doesn't tell us his hopping rate though. I would find it hard to believe that the Weyermann Pils would give astringency considering how carefully you sparged, but could you have oversparged? What is your efficiency? The local complaint about Weyermann is that it is too malty. IMHO, it makes a great Pils so a Kolsch should also be nice. Jeremy writes about problems using a clamp on a Phil's lauter tun. Try a 3/8" in-line valve. It gives better flow control and can be removed for cleaning. Kim - -- Kim and Sun Ae Thomson ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew mailto:alabrew at mindspring.com Birmingham, AL Home Beer and Wine Making Specialists Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:19:50 EDT From: WayneM38 at aol.com Subject: Clayton Cone question First thanks to Dr. Cone for answering questions on the HBD and special thanks to Rob for all of your efforts in getting him here. His answers are worth saving for future reference. Two questions. 1) I am a proud owner of a magnetic stir plate and a few 2000 ml flasks. Can you briefly outline a yeast starter regime for building up yeast slurries for 5 and 10 gallon batches? 2) You have mentioned adding yeast nutrient to increase yeast growth in fermenting wort. I have added packets of outdated/old bakers yeast to the last 15 mins of the boil to help in this area. Will using bakers yeast or health food store brewers yeast in this manner add anything to yeast growth in fermenting wort in place of a commercial product such as Fermaid? (sp?) Thanks again. Wayne Botanist Brewer Milwaukee Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:26:27 +0200 From: "Pauline M. Espino Romero" <nc-espinopa at netcologne.de> Subject: =?utf-7?Q?K+APY-lsch_astringency?= Hello All, Richard Gontarek writes to ask if the astringent taste he has noticed in his batch of K+APY-lsch is something that is appropriate to the style. As a resident of Cologne for over 2 years, and a frequent sampler of the many different K+APY-lsch available to the thirsty beer lover, I can assure you that K+APY-lsch should not have an astringent taste. When sampled fresh and hopefully from Fass (that is a 10 - 40 liter gravity fed keg) K+APY-lsch should be as smooth and drinkable as you could hope a beer to be. Glass, after glass, after glass. I find that because of the lower hopping rates and carbonation levels than in Pils, a K+APY-lsch session can last much longer into the night. I have also read the style guidelines where they describe K+APY-lsch as dry. I suppose that this is true, because it has a high level of attenuation, however , to my taste buds there is also a bit of residual sweetness in K+APY-lsch. In fact I have spoken to a number of Germans who do not like K+APY-lsch because they find it too sweet for there taste(although no one from Cologne would admit to that, they are very loyal to their local beer) Your best bet is too try to make the trip across the pond and sample some for yourself. I do not think that it is possible to imitate the taste or character of something only from reading a recipe and set of guidelines. Unfortunately for K+APY-lsch even if you could get a hold of a few bottles to sample they are really not very much like the beer one finds fresh on tap at most of the local pubs or brauhouses. I will leave it for one of the more experienced brewers on this forum to try to help you find out why you are tasting what you are in your beer Hope this helps John Masters Humbly refining his brewing skills in a foreign land. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:08:36 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report The Jethro Gump Report Dr. Cone's Yeast Questions and Answers..... Well, I hope that you will agree with me that we have enjoyed an informative visit from Dr. Clayton Cone...personally, as with the visit we had from the Siebel staff last year, I find that exposure to folks such as these 'a trip up Olympus,' a chance to learn at the feet of the masters of our hobby/industry. Thank you, Sir! As I stated before this event, the cut off date for questions to be submitted was with the publication of Friday's Digest. But, just to show you what a wonderful world it is, I will attempt to get them done nonetheless, by Dr. Cone, or by an equally prestigious personage. There are still a few questions that remain unanswered...and I assure you that those submitted on time...through normal channels will be completed....(I have had a few directed to my e-mail, rather than the digest...and those that had beer content were returned to the HBD).....but the fact is that Dr. Cone has seriously enjoyed this effort, but has tried to be very meticulous...and when there is the slightest thought that new research has been mentioned somewhere...(now, where was that?)...he has placed them in a draft queue.... And unknown to most...Dr. Cone was hospitalized overnight on Thursday.......he is back home on Friday...but, as you might suspect....such events have derailed his work schedule.... Add to this, the fact that he must leave on Tuesday for a European work trip...and well...you might imagine that his plate is very full right now. So...bottom line...if your question hasn't been answered yet...relax...and brew a beer....it will arrive! Again, Thanks, Dr. Cone! JG "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:27:59 -0700 From: "Brian Dixon." <briandixon at home.com> Subject: Pre-boil topping off Especially when brewing lighter gravity brews, the sparging is often stopped due to low gravity prior to my boil pot being as full as it needs to be. The post-boil volume will either turn out low and need topping off, or I can top off prior to the boil and won't have to top off in the fermenter. Obviously, topping off before the boil has the advantage of minimizing chance of infection. My question is this: If I top off prior the boil, does it matter if I do it by pouring boiling water into a boiling pot of wort, or is it ok to pour cooler pre-boiled (day before) water into the hot liquor prior to the boil? My concern is that if I pour cooler water into non-boiling, but hot (125 F to 140 F) wort, will I be adding air at a bad time and cause HSA? My usual practice is to bring the hot liquor to a boil, then to pour in the measured amount of water, which has been heated to boiling also (so I don't have to wait long for the wort to return to a boil, if at all). It would be nice to be able to skip the 'boil the top-off water' step prior to topping off ... comments? Note: I lose 2 gallons of water in a 90 minute boil, so I need a minimum of 7.5 gallons of wort prior to the boil ... I prefer closer to 8 gallons so I have around 6 prior to siphoning. This makes up for wort lost in the hops. I scale recipes up to take account for this and have good results (OG is as predicted, volume in primary is between 5 and 5.5 gallons.) Brian N44 35' 54" W123 14' 56" Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:42:30 -0400 From: John Roe <Sensei_John_Roe at compuserve.com> Subject: Floral Aroma, recipes I've been drinking my first batch of beer, an extract kit for IPA by William's. It uses English Fuggle and Hallertau hops, and Wyeast #1084. Primary ferment was 10 days at 68 degrees, seconday was 6 days with isinglass finings at 66 degrees. It is clean, clear and just fine, except... I find it has more of a floral aroma and less of a malty/bitter flavour than I would prefer. I am interested in what causes floral aromas, and how to avoid them. ...at least unless I want them... Hops? Ferment temp? Trub removal? (I ended up with most of the hop pellets in primary) Conditioning? Temperature profile when conditioning? Any tricks of the trade? I'm especially interested in a "clone" extract/steeped grains recipe for a Portland's Woodstock India Pale Ale, my current favorite IPA. I'm also interested in a clone of Widmer Brother's Hefeweizen, a new discovery for me, and a wonderful one. Thanks! John Roe Laguna Hills, Ca www.martialartsacademy.org "have the good manners not to hit the man until he's your husband, and until he can hit you back" ... From the movie "The Quietman" Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:21:10 -0400 From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> Subject: An apology, A wine question, Another aplolgy I am very sorry to come before this august assemblage and bother you with a non beer question, but I know of nowhere else to turn. For those of you who "have had more chemistry than the average brewer" a question. One of my customers botched a 3 gallon batch of Vintner's Harvest elderberry wine by misreading the instructions. He was supposed to make a sulfite solution with 5 tsp of sodium bisulfite in a cup of water. The instructions call for 3 tsp of this solution to sterilize the must. He used 3 tsp of sodium bisulfite powder to sterlize the must. Needless to say, it won't ferment despite a prolonged peroid of venting. Is there any hope for the must? Is there a way to reduce the sulfer? Can he make jelly / syrup out of it? Again, my apologies for disturbing the beer force field. Dan Listermann dan at listermann.com 72723.1707 at compuserve.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:44:40 -0400 From: Clark <clark at capital.net> Subject: secondaries and conditioning Hi list, I haven't posted in a while and while I am here I would like to thank all who responded to my questions about mashing several months ago. Thank you! This list is such a unique resource. There really isn't anything quite like it for brewers anywhere else. To the beer. I have several all grain brews under my belt now. It is so much more satisfying to make beer from grain than extract, not to mention the significant cost savings. My kids got me a reconditioned corny keg for Christmas and I plan on putting it into service soon. I usually let my bottled beer sit at least two weeks (all right, maybe one week) before I sample it. I find that it usually gets better as it sits, ages conditions or whatever you want to call it. The carbonation will be there, but the flavors change over time, usually for the better. If I keg my beer and pressurize it, I know it can be ready to drink in a day or two, but what about the conditioning factor of letting it sit for an extended time? Does the keg need to sit under pressure for the flavors to develop? Priming before bottling is done to enable the yeast to evolve CO2. Would kegs also get primed as an alternative to being pressurized, or is this not a safe practice? My bottles sit in the basement at about 60*F protected from light. Can my kegged beer sit in this temperature or does it need to be chilled? Secondaries. I have started putting my beer in a secondary. I am not always able to bottle when I should and the secondary keeps the beer cleaner and eliminates a potential flavor problem from autolysis. I have a bock that sat in primary for 9 days and then was transferred to a secondary. It has been 5 days now and I still get a bubble in the airlock every 15 seconds. How long should I let this go? The recipe called for ten days in the primary and then bottle, but I am tending to follow what has worked in the past and I don't think this stuff is ready to bottle yet. It's off in a cool corner and I will probably wait until there is only positive pressure on the airlock without bubbling before I bottle. Any comments? Odds and ends. I try to keep things clean without being too anal about it. There haven't been any infections so far. I use bleach, plenty of water and common sense. I thoroughly rinse my bottles after emptying and when I bottle I always brush them in a bleach water solution and then rinse again with One Step. Clean as you go. Never let anything like yeast or hops dry onto anything. Why work hard to clean when you don't have to? Speaking of yeast, I saved some ale yeast from a porter, just poured the dregs of a carboy into a very clean mayonaise jar and let it settle out. I poured off 3/4 of the liquid and trub the next day and added some boiled and cooled wort and put it back in the fridge. I did the same thing a week later and just left it. I wanted to use this yeast yesterday for an IPA so I poured off the liquid again and added boiled cooled wort and it took off like a bandit. This after about 4 or 5 weeks just sitting tightly closed in the fridge. I doubled it again and pitched the whole thing. Did I do good or have I taken a big chance of adding bad bugs to this batch? Again, everything was clean and looked and smelled fine. Last item. Forgot to add Irish moss to the above mentioned IPA. Does anyone care to comment on isinglass? How effective? How used? Worth the trouble? I don't mind how my beer looks when I drink it, but I am always trying to move to the next level of competency. I love this hobby. Thanks in advance for all the help, Dave Clark Eagle Bridge, NY Drinking less, but enjoying it more! Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:48:25 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: Yeast Q's- Marc Sedam- Dr. Cone From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: more yeast questions for Dr. Cone I am so blown away by the quality of Dr. Cone's responses that I'll pose another: Could you please comment on the ability for "regular" ale and lager yeasts to ferment out wort to levels >12% abv in the final product? Is there a good way to handle the yeast/fermentation to ensure it doesn't stop working early (besides a healthy starter)? Are certain beer yeasts better than others for this? Thanks, Marc Marc, I have no experience with high alcohol lager yeast fermentation. Most ale yeast can easily ferment up to 12% abv as long as it is healthy and happy. The pH of wort (4.0+) is optimum for this level of alcohol production (wine with a pH as low as 3.0, is stressful on the yeast and yet they easily reach 12 - 15 % abv.). You must have 30+ ppm dissolved Oxygen. The best time to begin adding the Oxygen is around the 14th hour when the yeast is hungriest for the O2. If all the O2 is added at the beginning, a substantial amount of it will be wasted. There is nothing sacred about the 14th. hour. The O2 should be introduced before the yeast reaches the stationary phase. The O2 is necessary for the yeast to produce lipids which act as a growth factor in the first stage of the fermentation and protect the yeast against the alcohol toxicity near the end of the fermentation. The yeast will probably require much more nutrients than are normally found in wort. You should consider adding about 1 gram Fermaid K and 2 - 4 grams Diammonium phosphate / gallon of wort. The Fermaid should be added with the yeast and the DAP should be added in increments over the first half of the fermentation. There should be no pressure build up. Saturation and CO2 supersaturation can be toxic. Frequent stirring minimizes this. It takes at least 20 - 21 % fermentable sugars to produce 12% abv. Mashing techniques using malt enzymes, alpha and beta amylase will not achieve this. You will need the addition of adjuncts like corn syrup, table sugar (sucrose) and or glucose (for some reason yeast likes glucose better than high fructose syrups). In order to reach 20 - 21% fermentable sugars and still have the mouthfeel of beer you will need several % unfermentable extract at the end. This will boost the initial gravity up to 1.100 - 1.110. This increase in gravity places a little added stress on the yeast. However, a healthy yeast should be able to handle it with ease. In fact a very healthy yeast can handle gravity's over 1.179. Having said all of this, you may occasionally run across a yeast that does not handle high alcohol, no matter how nice you are to it. In my limited experience with 20+ % abv fermentations, I have not found one yet that does not reach 16 - 18% abv. I suppose tomorrow I will be confronted with one, or you readers will inundate me with strains that wont make the grade! Clayton Cone Return to table of contents
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