---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: NYC Trip/bad brewpub music (phil sides jr)
  bad music in brewpubs / NYC bars ("George de Piro")
  natural gas burner question from John Varady ("Sieben, Richard")
  Re:Lemon beer ("Whyman Dental Lab, Inc")
  BJCP Exam ("Houseman, David L")
  mash-out, foam rest ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Perle Hops in Big Brew Recipe ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Hydrogen Peroxide for Sanitizing? ("Loren Crow")
  (no subject) (JDPils)
  Re: sulfury lager (Jeff Renner)
  A-B patent expired (pedwards)
  Sulfur is your friend (AJ)
  Patent infringement ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Dr. Cone compilation ("Paul Kensler")
  Jockey Box CO2 question ("Michael Rose")
  Clone recipes ("S. SNYDER")
  Infusion Jars (Thomas Lowry)
  Cardamom (Spencer W Thomas)
  Happy Anniversary to me (Edward Seymour)
  Fraoch Tasting (John Varady)
  RE: Jockey Box CO2 question ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: bad music in brewpubs / NYC bars (B.R. Rolya)
  Question for Dr. Cone regarding yeast starters and dry malt extract (JDPils)
  Update on finding Woodruff syrup ("Donald D. Lake")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:58:23 -0400
From: phil sides jr <hopsock.geo at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: NYC Trip/bad brewpub music

br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya) writes:

>It's not Heartland Brewery that's in the National Temperance Movement
>former headquarters, it's the Tap Room, an Austrian brewpub (with
decent
>german/austrian- style beers).  Before the Tap Room, Zip City occupied
this
>place.  (Address:  3 W. 18th St.)

Ya know, I remembered the pub, but not the name.  I looked the address
up (I thought) on the Internet and got Heartland Brewery... my bad.
This make much more sense now.  Spencer Thomas asked me about "that
Austrian place" and I did not even put the two together.  I guess I
never realized it was Austrian.  Thanks for clearing that up :-)

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:15:03 -0400
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: bad music in brewpubs / NYC bars

Hi all,

Just had a chance to read the HBD and noticed two things deserving comments:

First, my friend BR writes:

"why is it that every single brewpub that I have ever been in
plays the most horrible music imaginable??"

Excuse me, but I recall that you were at the Albany Pump Station when you
could hear the amazing sounds of bands like the Tremolo Beer Gut,
Superheroes, the Saints, Glide, Springhouse, Culture, The Congos, and
several other relatively cool artists.  Of course, once the ASCAP people
visited, that all ended.  Now we have a crap Muzak system like so many other
places.

Of course, if you come in late night when most people have gone, you can
still hear good music.  Swervedriver is great inspiration when cleaning
fermentors after midnight.
- -------------------
Ted from Staten Island writes in with info about NYC bars.  While it is just
a matter of opinion, I would like to throw mine in there because I disagree
with Ted's endorsement of several places.

Slaughtered Lamb, Jekyll and Hyde, and Peculiar Pun sell mostly old, stale
beer at outrageous prices.  While they have the redeeming quality of
offering somewhat amusing atmospheres, Brewski's is not worth visiting at
all.  The beer list is relatively small and the pricing bizarre (Victory Hop
Devil for $8/pint while Einbecker Ur-Bock is around $5/pint?!)  Aside from
that, the people there are not the friendliest folks on the planet.  I
sometimes suspect that they aren't actually running the bar to make a
profit...

They do occasionally have live Gypsy music that can be fun, but that isn't
enough in my book.

No beer trip to NYC should be without a visit to Williamsburg, Brooklyn to
see the Brooklyn Brewery and Mug's Ale House.  The Brewery has the tasting
room open on Friday nights from 6-9 (the least expensive way to drink
Brooklyn products aside from a package store) and tours on Saturday
afternoons.  It is on North 11th st. 1.5 blocks west of Bedford.  A short
walk away, on the corner of Bedford and North 10th, is Mug's Ale House.
They have a fine beer list and very reasonable prices.  Both of these places
are an easy walk from the L train.

Well, enough of my ranting.  Time for sleep.  In a few hours I brew
Belgian-style pale ale.  How exciting!

Have fun!

George de Piro  (living all over eastern NY)

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com (under construction)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:13:51 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: natural gas burner question from John Varady

John, one of the members of my local HB club found that the burner off of an
old water heater works very well.  It only took 3 or 4 screws to remove the
burner assembly from the tank and it is surrounded by a sturdy metal
cylinder that is made to support the tank full of water.  he carefully
straightened the gas line ( that normally has a 90 degree turn so that the
control is on the side of the water heater) and attached some fittings and
gas line hose.  I have not seen it in use, so I don't know whether or not it
can be throttled back or if it is only on or off.  He scavanged the burner
off of a water heater that a neighbor was throwing out, so it was free.

If you have the available convenient gas supply, it might be worth a try.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:25:03 -0600
From: "Whyman Dental Lab, Inc" <whymandl at milehigh.net>
Subject: Re:Lemon beer

Hello all,
Trevor Good asks about lemon beers. I've never had a commercial Lemon
product, but in the past, I've made light beers using lemon grass that
was very popular with the ladies, especially around the billiard tables
on a Friday night. I would have to check my records on quantities, but
you just chop it up and add it to the boil in the last 5 minutes. As I
remember, it is pretty easy to go over board with the stuff.
Good luck,
Roger Whyman
Englewood,CO





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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:38:59 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: BJCP Exam

There will be a BJCP exam given Sunday, May 21st, at the Classic Desert
Company in New Jersey, just the other side of the river from Philadelphia.
This exam is being hosted by David Graham, Brew By You (215-335-BREW), and
Bill Wibble of B.O.N.E.S.  (Wible, Bill X
[Bill.X.Wible at questdiagnostics.com]).  There are still a few seats open for
those that wish to take or re-take the exam.  However we need to know ASAP
who will be there.  So contact David or Bill directly if you wish to
take/re-take the exam.  The fee is $50 for first time takers, less for full
and partial re-takes of the exam.

David Houseman
BJCP MidAtlantic Representative


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:38:15 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: mash-out, foam rest

Steve points out >>170F = 76.666C . So you Specified 76+C for mashout.  <<
     That I will concede, probably came from switching F to C and back so
many
times in one thread. Other than that 1 sentence I had been saying 72 C to
74C.
>>Kunze's long, high pH rest at 70-72C is not a 76+C mashout at normal
pH.,,<<
     All along I had thought 5.6 pH would be in the "normal" range. High
     of normal, but still in the normal range.
>>A = A0 * e^kT     monotonically increasing with temps, get it ?<<
      What's "K", 0.003, 1, 300? it would make considerable difference; but
that
      doesn't matter because you stated later...
>>,  and the difference in BA action through the
>>two temp regimes is not as different as you imagine.<<
      I imagine the activity about doubles through the 18 degree F of the
      useful range of BA; 140 to 158. Exprapolating from the halflife times
       you quoted would give a halflife of 15 minutes (+/-) at 158F 70C for
BA. 
       After 30 minutes 25% of BA remains, a non trivial amount,
        I guessed 10% before, sorry, and
       this BA is acting near the peak of it's common activity range.
>>Mashout causes the starch release in the first place.  <<
    Yeah, so we use the AA to reduce it before the 170 degree sparge liquor
    releases it into the boil kettle. That is not a band-aid, it is a cure.

    The alternative is avoid releasing the unconverted starch during
mash-out
    and continue to keep things at or below the mash rest temp so they
don't
    leach into the runoff wort. That is damage control all the way. Convert
the
    starch and there's no need for a bandaid.
The Tuborg experiment is right out the window. After an extended maltose
rest
you expected the alpha amylase to reassemble the maltose fractions
into dextrines at mash-out? 146 is near the peak of fermentability for a
mash;
enough AA action to allow BA access to all the available starch leaving
A limit and B limit dextrines. Heating to mash out certainly wouldn't
change
the carbo profile (except that small portion ,4%, of starch that is
released
during the mash out phase) Get it? 

As to glycoprotein rests:
 Method-50 g finely milled malt mashed in 200mL distilled water with
                150mg/L Ca++.
               congress equipment was used and the mash held at 60 C for
               20 minutes, then raised to 68 C for 90 minutes, 71 C for 90
minutes,
               73C for 90 minutes, 75C for 90 minutes. Samples were
withdrawn
               at reaching 68C, 71C, 73C, 75C and at 30 minute intervals.
 Findings-foam active proteins increased in each mash at the 30 minute
                  interval. 68C mash yielding 85 mg/L,
                                 71C mash yielding 125mg/L,
                                 75C mash yielding 145mg/L
 Conclusion-"Maintaining a temperature >/=71C during the glycoprotein rest
                       in mashing was effective in increasing the content
                       of foam-active protein and improving foam adhesion."

ref-J. Am. Soc. Brewing Chemists, 55(1):20-23,1997


     I thought I was wrong, I was right
               N.P.L.



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:52:52 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Perle Hops in Big Brew Recipe

I noticed that Crispy stated in his Big Brew recipe that the addition of the
perle hops was as:
1 oz Perle hops (bittering or first wort hop)

Now with the recent discussion over first wort hopping my understanding is
that we would want to use the cascade hops (the aroma hop) as a fwh. I'm not
trying to dispute Crispy's recipe but maybe he should have not made the
comment of first wort hop for the perle. That said, I recently brewed a
similar beer and not totally understanding the theory behind first wort
hopping (still don't) I used the perle hops as a first wort hop. This beer
came out great and took a blue ribbon at a local competition. This past
weekend I tried the same brew again and this time used the cascade hops as
the first wort hop and then added the perle when the boil started. I know I
probably shouldn't have messed with the recipe since it won recently but hey
we're all trying to improve things.

My question is, I'm sure many of you out there have brewed a very similar
recipe and I'm curious as to what kind of results you've had with first wort
hopping (cascade or perle?)? The brew that won the blue ribbon had just just
the right bitterness (IMHO) and a real nice cascade nose. As another note I
also used a small amount (1/2 oz. for a ten gallon batch) of Columbus. This
hop (again, IMHO) seems to have a similar aroma to the cascade but with a
higher alpha %.

One other some what related question. I've had some real nice Rye Ales
recently and I'm interested in brewing one. I was thinking of using a
similar recipe to the Big Brew one with perhaps a little less cascade. Is
this a good idea? How much rye compared to the other malts should be used?
The ale I like the best had just a hint of rye in the aroma and had a real
nice mouth feel without as much bitterness as a normal pale ale. Also, I
assume that the dextrine malt is being used for head retention and mouth
feel in Crispy's recipe. Will the rye take the place of the dextrine?

Any comments would be appreciated and Crispy, I like the recipe I'm just
curious of your use of the term "first wort hop" for the perle.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the "Award Winning" Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:19:11 -0500
From: "Loren Crow" <lorencrow at earthling.net>
Subject: Hydrogen Peroxide for Sanitizing?

Hi Everyone,

Has anyone here tried using hydrogen peroxide to sanitize?  Are there any
empirical studies on the subject?

Thanks for your help!
Loren



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:22:44 EDT
From: JDPils at aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

 Jeff,

There is a book called 'Brew Classic European Beers' by Graham Wheeler and 
Roger Protz from CAMRA Books that has many great recipes including one for 
Spaten Octoberfest.  I can profess to its quality as this is the only beer I 
have brewed out of 120 some that I felt was perfect.  In fact it came in 
third in BOS at our club (Cascade Brewer's Guild) contest in 1999.  

My recipe was slightly different than the book.  I use 85% Czech or Weyerman 
Vienna Malt, 11.5% Gambrinus or Weyerman Dark Munich, and 3.5% Belgian 
Caramunich.  The book calls for 51%, 43%, and 4% of the three grains.  I hop 
at 25 - 28 IBU's and the book 22.   German and Czech noble hops like 
Hallertau Tradition, Tett, Spalt and Saaz are what I suggest that I can find 
here.  

As for yeast I like Wyeast 2206 or Bohemian.

I hope this helps.  I can't wait to bottle my second batch of this recipe.

Cheers,

Jim Dunlap
Woodinville, WA


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:10:14 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: sulfury lager

Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> writes:

>I have a lager that was really sulfury smelling.  As I've read, I'm letting it
>lager to let the sulfur smell dissipate.  It's working slowly, and that leads
>me to the questions.....would the sulfuryness be driven off more rapidly if
>the beer wasn't in a keg? If I counter pressure bottle, will it dissipate
>quicker in that smaller volume of beer?

I can't think of any reason that it would.  Time is your ally.  Lagers take
time, but they're worth it.

>I may also dry hop to mask it a bit if
>it won't leave soon!

I don't think I've ever met a dry hopped lager that I liked.  I don't know
if it is that typical lager hops (Hallertauer, Saaz, etc) don't lend
themselves to this, or if it dry hop flavors don't go with lagers.  I find
the effect grassy and chlorophyllous (is that a word?) and distinctly
unharmonious.  BTW, I love dry hopping in British and American ales.

Now I guess this may set off a discussion.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:40:32 est
From: pedwards at iquest.net
Subject: A-B patent expired

A quick search of US patent number 4,389,421 
(A-B's patent for reducing light struck phenomenom 
in beer by adding cardamom or other compunds) at the 
IBM Patent Server Home Page
  
 (http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/)

shows that the patent expired in 1995 due to 
lack of payment of maintenance fee.

 So, go for it!

 --Paul Edwards
   Foam Bloers of Indiana (FBI)
   "We tap kegs, not phones."

     39N 51' 43"
     86W 08' 10"



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:48:06 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Sulfur is your friend

Aaron wrote about sulfury lager. Nothing wrong with a bit of sulfur in
the Jungbuket (think of Hyacinth) of a lager. I'm starting to believe
that those Bavarian monks selected for sulfur production when they bred
yeasts for lager brewing. SO2 in solution keeps the beer in reduced
state thus preventing staling during the long lagering period. The
previous 2 issues of the JASBC had fascinating articles on the staling
of beer and SO2 content correlated very strongly with the ability of
beer to remain unoxidized. So don't be in too much of a rush to get the
sulfur out. If you can keep your hands off your beer for three or more
months (I know that's not easy) the sulfur will be mostly dissipated by
itself - partly through escape when the lagering keg is vented and, it
is hoped, partially by reacting with potential staling precursors.  You
will be rewarded with a fine beer. Remember that a hint of sulfur in a
continental lager is an important component of its flavor profile (but
be aware that many judges don't know this).

If you don't like sulfur and are in a hurry to drink the beer try over
carbonating (i.e. to 20 - 30 psig) in the lagering vessel (assuming its
a Corny or something that will safely withstand the pressure) then vent
back to 10 psi or so. This will sweep out some of the sulfur. Repeating
this process a few times should reduce the sulfur character noticeably.



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:50:36 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Patent infringement

Tidmarsh hit it right on the nose regarding patent infringement:

>Patent law, unlike copyright law, has no fair use 
>exception, so it doesn't matter how you use the technology 
>covered by the patent. Practically, of course, how's the 
>A-B legal dept. going to know that you're adding cardamom?

Plus, A-B does not have the time, money or patience to deal with you - even
if they did find out.  Since you are not mass producing the product and
marketing it with anti-skunk claims, you pose no threat to them.  Sometimes,
it is good to be small and insignificant ;-)







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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:54:06 -0400
From: "Paul Kensler" <paul.kensler at attglobal.net>
Subject: Dr. Cone compilation

If anyone is interested, I cut-and-pasted all of Dr. Cone's posts into a
single MS Word document.  All I did was a straight paste, no fancy
formatting, with a page break in between posts.  I made no editing changes
so everyone's original spelling mistakes are still there ;-) .

Single spaced in 10 pt. font, it comes out to be 27 pages long, all great
reading!  If anyone wants a copy, send me a private email and I will send it
to you.



Paul Kensler
Lansing, MI



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:11:47 -0700
From: "Michael Rose" <maltandhops at msn.com>
Subject: Jockey Box CO2 question

Collective,
    I just bought a second hand jockey box at a flea market.
It's professionally made with  the Budmillercoors logo
imprinted on it. The Igloo cooler is trashed but all beer related
stuff is in good working order. It has a two stage 100 foot SS coil.
At the end of the SS coil is 5 foot of 3/16 I.D. beer line that leads
to the faucet.
    What is the purpose of this 5 foot of high resistance beer line?
    Should I discard it?
I understand the purpose of 'resistance' in a kegorator to keep
'pressure in' and 'pressure out' in balance. But in this situation I would
think that the SS coil would provide enough resistance.
Also note that jockey boxes usually require about 35 p.s.i. to push the
beer.

Thanks,  mike rose   Crestline, CA     maltandhops at msn.com





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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:12:07 -0400
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER at LBGHQ.com>
Subject: Clone recipes

Greetings-

1.) Does anyone have a clone recipe for Spaten "Light/Regular" or
Franziskaner Hefeweizen?

2.) I have been pitching my liquid yeast (after popping the package and
letting it sit for a couple of days) directly into my brew, after cooling
the brew of course. I have never made a liquid starter and the beers (ale,
lager, weiss) always come out fine.  Am I missing a whole 'nother side of
brewing? I do notice that there always seems to be about a day's lag time to
the start of active fermentation and then it slows quickly. But, again, the
beers seem to come out well.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Scott Snyder
ssnyder at lbghq.com

"First things first, but not necessarily in that order."



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:13:11 -0700
From: Thomas Lowry <lowry at me.pdx.edu>
Subject: Infusion Jars

I am looking for a source to purchase an infusion jar.  You fill it with
vodka and the fruit(s) of your choice to produce flavored vodkas.  An
infusion jar is essentially a 2 liter or so jar with a spigot on it.
Basically a fancy sun-tea jar.  The sun-tea jars are a bit cheesy if you
ask me.  I am looking for something that wouldn't look out of place on a
nice wet bar.  Smirnoff used to sell them but they have since quit.
Finlandia makes one but it is for distribution to their vendors and not
for sale to the general public.  I have looked long and hard and cannot
seem to find any.  Does anybody have any ideas??

I know this is the homebrew site but I thought a bunch of
do-it-yourselfers would be a good place to get an answer for this!

Thanks!
Tom
- --
****************************************************************************

Thomas S. Lowry
Portland State University
(503) 725-4247 w
(503) 648-4252 h
lowry at ce.pdx.edu
****************************************************************************


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:39:10 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Cardamom

(So sue me. :-)

The other evening, I was planning to sit out on the deck with a nice
(glass) mug of maibock.  So I thought I'd try out the cardamom thing
(note: I have NOT read the patent, so I don't know if what I did was
anywhere close to their procedure.)

I opened a cardamom pod, removed one "seed", and crushed it in my
mortar.  I ended up with some little "flakes".  I didn't have the
patience to go all the way to powder.  

I took one flake (I have NO idea how much it weighed!) and dropped it
into the mug.  Then I poured the beer on top of it.  

Observations:

1. No skunking.  Since I didn't have a "control" mug of uncardamomed
beer, I have no idea whether it WOULD have skunked.  The Sun, while
shining directly on the deck (and thus on my beer) was on its way down
at the time.

2. Reduced "oxidized" character.  This is a totally subjective
observation, again with no "control" beer comparison, no "triangle
test," etc.  I had noted, in previous bottles of this beer, a
"metallic" (not really "blood" metal, this is just the closest word I
can find to describe the flavor) character that to me indicates
possible oxidation or rough handling of the (imported but still well
with its sell-by date) beer.  I did NOT pick up this flavor in the
beer to which I had added the cardamom.  

So there you have it.  For what it's worth.  Not scientific by a long
shot, but it was fun and interesting. 

Next time I'll try it on a hoppier beer. :-)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:45:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Edward Seymour <eseymour at yahoo.com>
Subject: Happy Anniversary to me


To all on the HBD,

	I can't believe that I have been brewing for one year
already.  Since that time I have gone from extract
with grain to an all grainer with my own (plastic
electric) brewery. My recent adventure is starting a
yeast ranch. I have plated 2 different yeast strains
and have started one batch ( a pilsner) from a yeast
slant.

      I would have never went this far if it wasn't
for all the help that I have received from the great
members of the HBD.  I have asked a couple of
questions in the years timeframe and have received
fantastic responses.

      My latest question dealt with yeast culturing. 
Someone stated on the form that we should all start
culturing our own.  I asked how this was done and I
received a plethora of valuable information in my
email box.  I had one member who is a scientist AND a
Siebel grad. who just happens to live in my area give
me his phone number (Which I did use).  He gave me
information on what I did and didn't need, where to
find it (cheaply), and how to use it (Thanks Jim).  

     Tonight I will drink a toast to the past year,
and to all of those whom have made it a successful and
enjoyable one. 


Regards,
Ed Seymour. 
Hamden CT (I still can't figure out the rennerian
coordinates yet)
http://www.geocities.com/eseymour/brewery.html

      P.S. Jeff, the CAP that I made in January still
taste like creamed corn (Mighty tasty with stake, but
I wouldn't dare drink it in a billiard room down
under, I might get skunked).



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:12:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Fraoch Tasting

To those who were unfortunate and missed last nights cask sampling of Fraoch
heather ale in Philadelphia, here is an update of what went on...

Historic brewer Bruce Williams took the jump across the pond from Glasgow,
Scotland to be on hand to guarantee that his pride and joy was properly
conditioned, fined and served. The cask arrived at McMenamins Pub in Mt.
Airy, Philadelphia in an unconditioned state. Bruce added primings and then
finings to the cask to bring it up to condition over the next few days. He
even insisted on modifying the resident hand pump to meet his strict
standards (the pump did not have a back flow valve so when the handle was
pumped some beer would squirt back into the cask and kick up the finings).
Bruce is a bright beer freak and even though the beer was clear by home brew
standards, he was slightly disappointed with it brightness.

The cask version of the Fraoch (gaelic for Heather) was brewed to a slightly
lower gravity than his bottled version (a session beer), to an SG of 1041.
It has heather, and sweet gale added during the boil. No hops are present at
all. The aroma was slightly fruity and acidic. The body was very light and
smooth with a dry, wine like finish. Very easy and enjoyable to drink. It
weighed in at 4% ABV.

In addition to the Fraoch, Bruce also brought along some bottles of his
other herb infused brews.

Grozet (auld Scots for Gooseberry) was an ale brewed with wheat, bog myrtle,
hops, and meadowsweet and then secondary fermented with ripe gooseberries.
This one was really good - with a refreshing fruity aroma and crisp wheat
finish. It was very light on the palate and finished like a champagne. 5% ABV.

Alba (gaelic for Scotland) was an ale brewed with young pine sprigs in the
boil (for several hours) and fresh spruce tips added after knockout (85C).
This one was excellent as well. The woody/intense malty aroma was very
inviting. A sip revealed a very non-piney tasting beer - in fact it recalled
cherries. The nice lingering finish left a malty/smokey taste and a desire
for more. As it warmed, the complexity really began to shine. This one was
big, with a 1072 OG and 7.5% ABV.

He also has another beer, Ebulum, a elderberry black ale that was not
present. He did promise to send some bottles back when he arrived back in
Scotland.

Bruce Williams was a very nice guy and very home brewer friendly. He was
willing to give me any and all information needed to brew his historical
beers. He was at one time a home brew store owner in Glasgow and in 1986, a
Gaelic-speaking customer translated an old family recipe for heather ale and
gave it to him. This started his quest to reproduce the historic beers of
his forefathers. I'd say he was very successful.

One other note, the yeast he uses to ferment his ales was isolated for him
from the wild yeasts that naturally occur on the heather he uses. He was
more than happy to part with the yeast, but the bottles, although bottle
conditioned, had been pasteurized. It made a very nice ale and was extremely
clean.

McMenamins Tavern in Mt Airy has several cases of the bottled versions of
these beers, so if you want a taste of historic Scotland, you'd better make
it down there in the next few days!

Thanks to Jim Anderson for making the event possible! Be sure to check out
Beer Philadelphia for what's happening in the Philly beer scene.

Now, if US home brewers start making beers like this, I'd volunteer for the
Herb & Spice category at every home brew comp.

Thanks for listening

John
- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:22:41 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Jockey Box CO2 question

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Michael Rose asks...

> It has a two stage 100 foot SS coil.
> At the end of the SS coil is 5 foot of 3/16 I.D. beer line that leads
> to the faucet.
>    What is the purpose of this 5 foot of high resistance beer line?
>    Should I discard it?

Definitely keep it! The balance at each end of the coils is much different
due to the temperature drop within the coils themselves. The hose lengths
and inner diameters are specified such that the beer effectively sees the
same temperature/pressure/resistance relationships on each side of the
coils or cold plate for the expected cooling achieved within the coils.
Changing for a higher ID line at the outlet will require you to use a much
longer run to achieve the same balance (may not fit in the box!). Also
note that the system is in balance at 35psig (typ) - from the keg to the
end of the faucet. Any change in hose diameter or length will affect this
balance and manifest itself at your faucet as either foamy or flat beer
(in the limiting cases).

If it were me, I'd replace it with new hose, but I'd use the same length
and ID as original. (And it's been me more than once - I have several cold
plate/coil-based beer cooling/serving gizmos :-) And be sure to use the
same type of tubing - usually "beverage line" - to achieve the same
characteristics.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:11:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: Re: bad music in brewpubs / NYC bars

George de Piro writes:

>First, my friend BR writes:

(uh oh.  I wonder if I'm a former friend now...)

>Excuse me, but I recall that you were at the Albany Pump Station when you
>could hear the amazing sounds of bands like the Tremolo Beer Gut

Just for the record, I have *never* heard the "inebriated sounds of" the
Tremolo Beer Gut at the Pump Station.  I do recall, however, that you
mentioned having played them and were asked to take it off the sound
system.

We shall be passing through Albany on our way to an avant garde music
festival in Quebec and will provide a report on your musical selections to
the collective.
- ---------
As for bars in NYC:

I must agree with George's assessment of Brewski's (same goes for Burp
Castle owned by the same people):
>Brewski's is not worth visiting at all.
<snip>
>I sometimes suspect that they aren't actually running the bar to make a
>profit...

If anyone asks, you didn't hear it from me, but I do believe that 2 words -
"money" and "laundering" -   have passed my lips in the same sentence when
referring to these places.  I live a few blocks down the street from them
and have always found the atmosphere most unnerving on the rare occasion
that I end up there.  (And I think they wanted $9 for a pint of Victory Hop
Devil, not $8.  $8 is what you'll pay for a local beer like Brooklyn.)
Often, on a friday/saturday night, I've walked past there and only 4 people
are at the bar *and* they're turning everyone else away!

I had emailed Phil W. personally with some of my favorite bars, but since
this has become a thread I might as well post them here in case others are
interested.

Blind TigerAle House (Hudson at W. 10th) is a nice neighborhood bar with a
good tap selection (happy hour until 8)

d.b.a. is always a classic (41 1st. Ave. near E.2nd St.) but their
bartenders often don't know anything about beer (except the fact that it is
a beverage).  It's worth taking advantage of the $1 off during happy hour
(until 7:30) since prices are a bit steep.  Nice beer garden in back for
lazy sunday spring/summer afternoons.

Others have mentioned the usual suspects in Brooklyn (Mug's, Sparky's,
Waterfront, Park Slope Brewing Co.).  Just a note:  Park Slope no longer
brews their beer there.  Everything has been moved to Red Hook.

I think that Commonwealth Brewing Co. (Rockefeller Center) has very good
beer, especially now that Rob Mullins (formerly of Old Dominion in VA) is
there and management allows him a little more creativity than the previous
brewer (Paul Saylor who now has a wonderful place in Danbury, CT - Colorado
Brewing Co.).

Someone mentioned Irish pubs:  I'm partial to the Scratcher (E. 5th near
Bowery).  They also serve food during the day.  Riverdale, in the Bronx,
has a large Irish expat population and some great bars/cafes, notably An
Beal Bocht.  If you're visiting Wave Hill or Van Cortland Manor (House?),
it's worth the detour.

As mentioned before, our club lists current (or mostly current ) tap
selections at area bars on our Beer Alert page of the website.  It also
lists bars which are canine-friendly in case you are visiting NY with your
dog...


 -BR
New York City
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:24:37 EDT
From: JDPils at aol.com
Subject: Question for Dr. Cone regarding yeast starters and dry malt extract

Greetings fellow brewer's,

I have really enjoyed Dr Cone's comments on yeast.  Dr. Cone thanks!!  
Perhaps Dr. Cone, Chris White, or somone at Wyeast can comment on my 
observations.  

A while back I posted my experiences using differnet malt extracts for yeast 
starters (ref HBD 3273 below).  With various dry malt extracts, I was not 
observing what I consider "classic" feremtation characteristics.  These are;  
1) dense foam kreusen 2)  trub stuck to the side of the starter bottle.  I 
reported the only DME that produced this was Muton and Fison, which I used 
for years until the local brew shop burnt down.  With other extact brands, I 
made starters with fresh smack packs and White Labs vials, as well as a 
slurries from other batches and a local brewery.  

This week I did three starters from the same yeast WY1968 which can from my 
secondary of a previous batch.  2 oz of slurry per 12 ounce bottle, no 
nutrients and I shook vigorously to aerate.  Once again, the ONLY DME which 
produced the classic fermentation characteristics was Munton and Fison!  The 
others had activity but no kruesen or trub on the sides of the bottles.  I 
have also waited two days.  

Therefore, I conclude these other DMEs are not desirable for starters and I 
would certainly not recommend them for an entire batch.  Why would one choose 
to use these DME's I do not know.  Why the brew shops would stock or sell 
them I do not know either?  Why are most dry malt extacts like this, except 
M-F?   Perhaps the drying process destroys some of the yeast nutrients.  I 
also do not think my criteria is overly picky, especially for lagers.  And 
while the batches I have made with sluggish starters turned out very good, I 
still cannot see why I should want yeast starters that appear "half dead"  

Fed up with poor DME no more!  Mountain Homebrew Supply is open and stocks 
the right stuff, M-F DME.  (www.mhbws.com) 

Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA  

HBD Post 3273
Dear fellow brewer's,

Ever since my local homebrew shop, Evergreen Brewing Supply burnt down (soon 
to reopen as Mountain Homebrew) and I have purchased dry malt extract 
elsewhere, I have lost the recipe for making yeast starters.  All my starters 
are active but do not have any foam head or sediment stuck to the sides of 
the containers.  My procedures have not changed knowingly.  I first bought 
what I thought was American Dry Malt and turned out to be a dutch supplier 
(other than Laaglander) and second English Dry Malt which was suppose to be M 
& F, which is what I purchased from Evergreen.  I am looking for some advice. 
 So here is my data.

I make  1.040 - 1.060 gravity starter.  I usually am not too concerned about 
it.  I shake the container for about one minute and place at 68F for ales and 
50 - 60 for lagers depending on the size of starter.  I sanitize with 1/2 - 1 
tsp bleech per gallon of water and triple rinse.  I do not add any hops and 
the last two ale yeasts I added some yeast nutrient.  When stepping up new 
yeast I use a 1pt, then 1/2 gal starter for Wyeast and 1/2 gal for White Labs

The list of poor or failed starters is:

Wyeast 2206 1 qt slurry from a brewery
Whites Labs Pilsener and Octoberfest(WP820) from the secondary of a previous 
batch
White Labs Irish Ale from the vial
Wyeast 1968 from the 50 ml smack pack.

My definition of a failed starter is no kreusen on the surface and no trub 
stuck to the sides of the container.  If you shake the container foam will 
form and the airlock is active.  

One starter came from a test gallon of double bock which had amylase enzyme 
in it.  After a couple days this did form a kreusen and trub on the sides of 
the bottle.  This confirms my belief that both extracts where high in 
dextrins. 

Since I had no other yeast I pitched anyway into an Octoberfest for the 
lagers at 55F and a NW Porter for the ales at 60F.  So how did the beers come 
out?  Am I being to anal retentive or should this issue be resolved?

The brewery 2206 started in four hours and finshed at 1.016 in seven days.  
The WP820 started in 24 hours and finsihed at 1.017 in 14 days.  Perhaps Dr. 
Pivo would like this and I think the beer will turn out fine, but the lag is 
just a little long for me. 

The White Labs Irish starter in eight hours whereas the 1968 took 18.  Both 
were done in two days at 68F.  The Irish finished at 1.018 and the 1968 at 
1.016.  This is the third identical batch of Porter with the 1968 and the 
exact same results.  I thought the Irish Ale should have finished lower, but 
is is within White Labs parameters.  

So I think once again for Ales there is lots of margin for error, but for 
lagers these poor starters had an effect.  I thought the octoberfest should 
have finshed drier.  I am happy with the length of fermentation though, so 
perhaps it is just my mash schedule and recipe.

Therefore, I may be a little overly critical, but I still expect an active 
starter and cannot except this situation.


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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:36:39 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Update on finding Woodruff syrup

I easily found a couple of sources for the raspberry syrup with German
speciality food shops.  But Woodruff (a/k/a waldmeister) syrup is
another story.  Many of you emailed me privately expressing the same
problem and asked me to keep you posted on my research

After spending half the day on the internet (I've got to get a life), I
finally got break in this mystery case.  Through a strange twist, I
found a wine/spirits distributor in northern California who carries the
stuff.  Unfortunately, they only sell wholesale and only in CA.  They
gave me the ph# of a liquor store in San Francisco that had ordered it
recently.  I called the liquor store and the owner had absolutely no
interest in going to any trouble to ship it.

Perhaps one of the homebrew supply stores out in northern CA would be
interested in being the final source for this product.  If so please
contact me and I will give you the necessary info. to finish the deal.

I'm currently stalled, but I haven't given up.  The stuff is out there
and I'm going to find it.

Don Lake
dlake at amuni




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