---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Beer in Alaska ("Jamil")
  Oz in winter (William Frazier)
  re: yeast ("Stephen Alexander")
  San Miguel Brewery - Advice ("Graham Sanders")
  Wherarya? ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  Phil's antipathy (fred_garvin)
  plambic stuff (Jim Liddil)
  Lead and brass again ! ("Braam Greyling")
  re: Questions on mashing, sparging, and aeration (Bill.X.Wible)
  Lambic Pt. II ("Marc Gaspard")
  Temperature controllers (fridgeguy)
  Re: Old timey ( not that old) beers, Hudepohl and JD, church (Bill.X.Wible)
  Re: Questions on mashing, sparging, and aeration (Demonick)
  Re:  Charleston, S.C. and Savannah, GA ("Mark Nelson")
  RE: Temperature controller help... (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re: carbonic/pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Jim's Buckwheat Malt ("John Palmer")
  Aerated starters (Demonick)
  Oh Well ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Where in Oz.... (Bret Morrow)
  Framboise/Greece ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Questions ("Eric R. Lande")
  pop-tops (Paul Mahoney)
  More Ohio beer law trivia ("Eric Ahrendt")
  bulging extract can ("Al Beers")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:53:27 -0700
From: "Jamil" <jamilz at jps.net>
Subject: Re: Beer in Alaska

> As a Naval Reservist I'll be travelling to Ketchikan, Alaska from July 9
to
> July 21.  While there I'm sure I'll be EXTREMELY busy, but hope to break
> away to taste some of the local beers.  Any suggestions?  Bars/pubs I just
> NEED to go to?

The Fogcutter seemed to be the local hangout, rather than the tourist
hangout. Nice crowd, good beer.

JZ



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:01:57 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oz in winter

>OK Graham - I've got you spotted on the map.  Now, for some time I've been
trying to figure out how to avoid winter totally.  If I spend my summers in
the USA in Kansas (It's hot here in summer) how far north in your OZ would I
have to stay in my winters (Nov-Feb) to avoid cold weather?  I realize I
would be giving up prime brewing weather to eliminate winter but there are
chest freezers with proper thermostats to permit brewing of Lager regardless
of ambient temp.
>
>I see there is a nice airport in Townsville so travel wouldn't be a
problem.  And the Great Barrier Reef is near by so lots of seafood to go
with my White Dog Ale and 4-Grain Pils.  Any restrictions on Ex-Pats living
in OZ to escape winter?
>
>Thanks to Lyndon I've got him spotted in Adelaide.  Because of my curiosity
about where you OZ types live we now know that fine kit beers can be
purchased in Adelaide, so Phil, even tho I still don't know where the
Burradoo is you can drop down to Adelaide to pick up supplies for your next
brew party.
>
>Concerning my OZ, we now have six confirmed spottings of Armadillos (alas
as road kill) in the KC area.  What's going on?
>
>        Bill Frazier
>        Olathe, Kansas 
>
>       
>
>



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:42:59 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: yeast 

Aaron Perry used WY1056 and an SNPA culture and is
getting different flocculation characteristics.

>the "direct from wyeast"
>fementor is a normal looking 1056 ferment.  The SNPA sediment
>fermentor is very powdery ...

I posted a while back on an EBC paper that was able, in only
abt 10 ferments to select yeast that flocculated poorly.  Later
they reversed the selection process and retrieved the normal
flocculation characteristics as quickly,  What you are probably
seeing is such a selection.  Most commercial operations are
less concerned w/ flocculation than we HBers are and so are
less likely to select for it.  'Got an MBAATQ paper (somewhere)
that studies the yeast population characteristics based on such
selection.

There are at least 9 flocculation genes (FLO1 .. FLO8, NewFlo)
identified in various yeasts.It's likely the SNPA lacks it's FLO
genes, what is more likely is that the two strains differ in so called
"modifier genes" which impact the onset, degree and effectiveness
of flocculation. [see JIB81, p242, Anderson&Margen].

>Did the SNPA  sediment mutate?
Since it's "Chico" yeast, more likely the WY1056 has changed.
Is it a mutant ?  In the same sense that you and I are Aaron.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:01:16 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: San Miguel Brewery - Advice

G'day all

Well it seems I cant get off the HBD at the momment, there's just too much
going on.  I should save some of this up for when the creative drought sets
in, but over here droughts are too common, so its time to make hay.

Being very serious for once, this time I write that one of our local
homebrew shops is getting a special guest on Saturday.  I need the
professionals help here now, as I sometimes question the authentictity of
this shops advice, not for the first time.

The add says "Edar Salvador, qualified chemist and former Brew Master of 12
years at San Miguel Brewery will offer free advice this Saturday".  Like
most things this just seems too good to be true and i just cant believe
someone like this would just rock in and offer advice.  It would be like
"Charlie P" suddenly turning up without warning at my house.

I suspect the truth is in the fine print.  Can any HBD'ers shed any light on
this guy.  Is it true?, or do I suspect the truth is being bent (or worse).
Even if he was the Brew Master, was it a brewery of note, or a brewery
wishing to be noticed.

Any advise from the pro's would be welcome, especially if this is false
advertising.  The Home Brew industry doesn't need the bad publicity if this
guy is not what is claimed, especially with the time some of us have taken
trying to build it up.

If you are worried about off comments, feel free to E-mail me directly.

Shout

Graham Sanders

PS - Oh I hate it when I get serious about my hobby.  Just wont let people
run it into the ground, at least without a fight. (off soapbox)




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:40:27 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: Wherarya?

Bill writes:-
>The latest National Geographic has a great, detailed
>map of Australia.  If you Oz types would tell us where you live we could
>find you on the map.

You might find Hahndorf in the Adelaide Hills (aka Mount Lofty Ranges) 30 
kilometres s/e of South Australias state capital, Adelaide.
See you there some time!

Thomas.




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: fred_garvin at fan.com
Subject: Phil's antipathy

Eric asked me to handle this situation
with the Aussies, since his attentions
have been usurped by a pending lawsuit
involving an unattended camera at the 
NHC Pig Roast and an occupied bathroom
stall.
At any rate, I needed to bring myself
up to speed, which meant improving my
vocabulary.  First, I determined the
proper spelling of "antipathy", then
looked it up at dictionary.com.  How
fortuitous to find this definition:

antipathy n 1: a feeling of intense 
dislike [syn: aversion, distaste] 
2: the object of a feeling of intense 
aversion; something to be avoided; 
"cats were his greatest antipathy" 

In the words of the freshly shorn 
Scott Abene, "hmmmmmmmmmmmm....."

My only conclusion is that Phil must
of meant to say that Eric was his 
"antipodie" which can be losely 
defined to be the person that occupies
the space on the exact opposite side of
the Earth from you.

Eric and I consider this to be a badge 
of honor.

Sorry I couldn't make the AHA NHC.
Old bowling injury, you know.

Fred Garvin, retired.
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Public Relations Dept.
Kentwood, MI (Antipodal Burradoo)



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:13:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: plambic stuff

> 
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:05:36 -0400
> From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
> Subject: Fruit Lambic Question
> 
> Joel had a question regarding Fruit Lambics as do I:
> 
> >I have a friend who has requested a raspberry lambic, like Frambaise (sp).
> >I believe it is a normal lambic, but for bottling instead of dry malt or
> >corn sugar or wort, raspberries are used. The question is twofold:
> >1. Is my theorem correct?
> >2. If so, how much raspberry concentrate for a 5gal batch?
> 
Please clarify what framboise the person is interested in.  Are we talking
about Lindeman's or Boon or maybe Cantillion?  Lindemans is sweetened and
pasteurized, the others are not.  See the lambic digest archives for
discussions of this issue.
> 
> Cherry season is here and I now have about 15 lbs of cherries picked,
> cleaned and sitting in the freezer waiting to be added to my 1 year old
> plambic so I can make a kriek.  However, I've got to make room in the
> freezer before "She-who-can-bitch-much-and-make-your-life-miserable" says
> anything about it.  My problem is that the pellicle is still on the top of
> the brew and I have been told not to disturb it.  Let it crash naturally
> before bottling otherwise you risk re-formation in the bottle or oxidation
> of the beer.  If the plambic shows promise this weekend I plan on thawing
> the fruit and racking the beer on top of it - pellicle or not.

I say go for it.  Otherwise make a light wheat beer and use the fruit in
it.  Disturbing the pellicle is not that big a deal.  Aeration is since it
will induce brettanomyces regrowth and further conversion of alcohol to
acetic acid.  So rack carefully onto the fruit and see what you get.  I'm
always up for taste tests. :-)

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:09:41 -0500
> From: "Marc Gaspard" <mgaspard1 at kc.rr.com>
> Subject: Lambics
> 
> Lambics take a LONG time and require a lot of patience on the part of the
> brewer.  Since they are usually aged in oak, some lambic homebrewers
> have oak casks for ageing.  You can get around this by using oak chips.

I beg to differ.  the oak casks used in lambic production are old wine
barrels and ahve little if any oakyness left.  The thing the oak does do
is harbor the various microorganisms and aloow limited air permeation. 

> lambics ferment out pretty fully and you need to add a dose of yeast
> (1056 works fine) with your priming sugar, and you can prime fairly high,
> say about 4 oz. per 3 gals.  You want some fizziness.

Many times cantillion is flat.  carbonation is a matter of preference.
> 
> Be sure to keep these fermenters separate from your other brews if poss-
> ible; the different organisms can migrate and you don't want to infect the
> rest of your brewery!

Oh like geese. :-) This is a much stated momily.  Look at the lambic
digest and hbd archives for discussions about cleaning sanitation,
microbiology etc.

Yes we should all htank pat and karl and rob gardner, jay hersh, mike
sharp and others who have run electronic digests and helped the transfer
of information.

Jim Liddil
There is no heaven that's why we drink beer here.



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:33:43 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Lead and brass again !

Hi 

Since I am rebuilding my brewery after we moved, I have a question.

At the hardware store I found some ball-valves. 
Although on the label there is written "brass ball-valve",  the ball-valve 
is not yellowish. It is more a silver colour. it doesnt look like the 
golden yellow colour of brass at all.
Is it chrome plated ? 
Should it still be cleaned before it is used ?  
What about chromium, isnt it also poisonous ?   

Please help !

Best regards

Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd

PLEASE NOTE NEW CONTACT DETAILS:
Tel +27 21 8711730  Fax +27 21 8711036
braam.greyling at azoteq.com


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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:58:55 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: re: Questions on mashing, sparging, and aeration




>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:34:11 -0400
>From: Tom Riddle <ftr at oracom.com>
>Subject: Questions on mashing, sparging, and aeration
>
>Hello all,
>
<snip>
>
>1) Add the grains to the water, or water to the grains ?
>Or does it matter ? I seem to vaguely remember something
>about balls of malt dust forming in one scenario, but not
>the other ??

I sort of do both.  I start out by putting about half the mash water
in the mash tun, then adding grain to the water and stirring until
it becomes thick.  All the while, I keep the rest of may mash water
on the flame to keep it hot, as I lose alot of heat this way.  Then,
when the mash is nice and thick, I add some more water, some more
grain, some more water, some more grain, etc. until its all together.
As long as you stir and combine well, I think the balled starch that
Greg Noonan writes about in New Brewing Lager Beer, which is what
I think you are referring to, will not be a problem.

>2) When recirculating the first runnings, how clear is  clear ?
>Transparent or just free of particles ? Miller says to recirculate
>for upto 15mins ?!?!  Again I seem to vaguely recall something
>about leaching tannins from the grain husk if you recirculate/sparge
>too much ??  What are the consequences of not recirculating
>enough ?

I go for transparent.  I usually recirculate a long time, sometimes I
not as much of an expert as others on HBD, but I don't think sparging
and recirculation are the same.  Recirculation is the process of filtering
saturated worth back through the mash grain, called Vorlauf in german.
Spargig is rinsing the same grains after taking the initial runoff to obtain
additional sugars.

I think recirculation has nothing to do with leaching tannins.  Some will
argue that recirculation causes hot side aeration though, and there was
a big debate about that recently.  Oversparging or sparging with water that
is too hot (more than 170 degrees) will leach tannins and cause astringency.

>3) Concerning aeration of wort before pitching.  This is one
>topic that seems to have gotten very popular over the past
>few years.  Is an aquarium or hand pump really necessary or
>will a simple venturi device (copper tubing with a few small
>holes drilled into it) at the end of the racking tube suffice ?

I aerate by pouring the cooled wort from my 5 gallon pot through a strainer
into the primary bucket from a good height of about 4 feet.  This creates a
good foam, and it is obvious this aerates the wort.  I do not use any kind
of pump or stone.  I have used in the past a stick-like device that attaches
to your drill.  It is about 3 feet long and has perforated 'wings' that swing
out and aerate the wort.  I can't tell if this device has made a whole lot
of difference in any of my beers, though.  It seems to work OK.  Anybody
else got one of these?

Bill




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:10:07 -0500
From: "Marc Gaspard" <mgaspard1 at kc.rr.com>
Subject: Lambic Pt. II

Glen asked;

<snip>
1. Is disturbing the pellicle in any manner a strict NO-NO and if so why?  I
doubt that anyone over there in Patyottenland is peering through the
bunghole of a wooden cask to check.  I think they just funnel the fruit in
regardless.

2. Since I'll be racking the beer from underneath the pellicle, should I
take all or some of it along along as well?  It's pretty thin and probably
can be racked with the beer.

3.  Would it hurt to pitch another small starter of Chico (or other clean
ale yeast) when I rack on top of the fruit?   I think most of the ale yeast
(S. cerevisiae strain) will be long dead and consumed by the other bacteria
present in the lambic culture? <end snip>

Glen, I had a similar situation a year ago with some extra framboise I had
in
a gallon jug that had developed a powdery pellicle.  I emailed Jim Liddell,
who's very knowledgeable about lambics and his suggestion was to try
and disturb the pellicle as little as possible (obviously you're going to
dis-
turb it somewhat pushing a racking cane thru it ;-)) rack from under the
pellicle and leave as much of it behind as possible.
     And yes, I would definitely recommend pitching some more 1056 at
bottling time and slightly increase your priming dose; otherwise you'll get
one flat lambic.

     On a side note; at last year's AHA National's in Olathe, KS, I did a
presentation on lambics for beginners and had the good fortune to meet
Doug Faynor, who made the commemorative gueuze for the conference,
and Charles Gottenkienney, a master lambic brewer and only two-time
winner of AHA National BOS.  Both feel (and convinced me) the desig-
nation "plambic" is unnecessary.  After all, we're using as close as we can
get to the real ingredients used in making lambics.  My only difference is
I have cherry tree in my front yard and that's what I use.

                                                Marc Gaspard

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."-Ben Franklin




"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."-Ben Franklin



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:12:01 -0500
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: Temperature controllers

Greetings folks,


 In HBD #3363, Pat Babcock apparently forwarded a post by Stephen
Klump? concerning his failed temperature controller.

 Williams has been selling Johnson A19 controllers for quite awhile so
I'll assume this is the controller in question. When wired for
cooling, as it would be for starting a chest freezer compressor, the
switch in the controller (single pole, double throw or SPDT) will
close as the temperature at the sensor bulb rises.


 The capillary tube and sensor bulb are filled with a liquid/gas
mixture that expands when heated. The bulb and cap tube are connected
to a metal bellows. Rising pressure in the cap tube/bellows/bulb
causes the bellows to expand and press against the switch plunger,
actuating the switch.


 Since this is a SPDT switch it has three terminals and may be wired
to "close on rise" or "open on rise", to use Johnson's terminology. We
have the controller wired "close on rise", so if the gas leaked out of
the bulb, the controller switch would be left in the open position and
the freezer would not run.


 Also note that there is no relay in the A19 controller. It is
instead, a sealed phenolic resin-encased switch which is plunger
activated. There isn't any way to disassemble and clean the contacts.

 Since the controller failed, leaving the freezer running, I suspect
the switch contacts are either stuck or welded together. This can
happen after many years of use since the contacts are subject to
arcing as they close.

 If the controller isn't very old, check the compressor's starting
relay and capacitor (if there is one). Stuck controller contacts are a
commonly caused by too much current passing through them. If the start
relay or capacitor are not working properly, or if there is too much
voltage drop during start-up, the controller switch contacts might be
overloaded.

 Also be sure to set the differential to 5 degF minimum or immerse the
controller's probe in a jar of oil or water. If the controller tries
to start the compressor within 5 minutes or so after it shuts off, the
system pressures will not have had enough time to equalize and the
compressor may draw excessive starting current, or may not start at
all and trip the thermal overload.

 To minimize voltage drop problems, plug the freezer into a circuit
without other large current users such as microwave ovens or toasters,
etc. If an extension cord must be used, be sure it is made with large
enough wire to carry *five* times the freezer's current rating as
posted on its nameplate since this is about how much current the
compressor normally draws as it starts.


Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net





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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:14:56 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Re: Old timey ( not that old) beers, Hudepohl and JD, church




>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:37:50 -0500
>From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay at netXpress.com>
>Subject: Re: Old timey ( not that old) beers, Hudepohl and JD, church
>
>Greetings Oldtimers,
>
>One of the beer mysteries of my life is the search for the name for
>a brew from the '50s. In about '52 or '53,there was a strike of some
>kind (brewery or Teamsters) that cut off the beer supply to the Carolina
>coast.All us beachbums could get was a sorta generic beer with trivia
>q&a on the can. My tired old brain only remembers the name was Enslingers
>or similar. The cans were kinda fun and the beer was OK-it was the 50's,
>so any beer was good to us. Church keys,were a standard tool of the day
>and I even saw a few used as weapons-Myrtle Beach could get rough late
>at night. Anyone else out there who remembers the beer and the real name?
>FWIW,PBR was my beer of choice in those days-had a real spicy note which
I> now know was the hops-then it was BEER and thats all that counted.
>
>Val Lipscomb-brewing CACAs & PAs in San Antonio

Val,

I'm not that much of an old timer, but I know there was a beer made here in
Philadelphia called Esslinger's. I never had it, but there are old signs, cans,
and tap handles from it everywhere on ebay. I saw in one of the ads for an
Esslinger's tap handle on ebay that the handle came from a place that used
to be a speak easy during prohibition.  This tells me the beer was around for
a long time.  I don't remember the beer, or the cans with trivia quizzes on
them, I was probably too young.

Maybe you can find more info on it by searching the internet, or maybe others
can tell you more about it.

Good Luck

Bill





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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:27:35 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on mashing, sparging, and aeration

In HBD 3363 Tom Riddle <ftr at oracom.com> asks:
> 1) Add the grains to the water, or water to the grains ?

Grains to water while stirring.  I dump all the sparge water into
the tun, then dribble the grist in while stirring.  Grain balls are
what you fear.  Wet on the outside and dry in the middle.  They are
a waste of grain and may contribute to starch haze.  These are more
prevalent if using high grain to water ratios.  I use 1.33 quarts
per pound and grain balls are easy to prevent.

> 2) When recirculating the first runnings, how clear is clear ?  
>    Transparent or just free of particles ?

If your temperature and pH are okay there seems to be little risk of
tannin extraction considering that RIMS recirculate for the entire
mash.  That said, you can certainly waste a lot of time recirculating,
waiting for that transparent brew.  Get the chunks out and fair bit
of the particulates and forget it.  I recirculate between 1-2 gallons
for a 5 gallon batch depending on conditions, both the brew's and my
own.  A good strong boil will help remove particulates with the hot
break.

> 3) Concerning aeration of wort before pitching.

There is an inverse relationship between size of starter and the need
for aeration.  Bigger starters need less aeration of the main wort.  
I got by for years just "rockin' and rollin'" the carboy.  I've also
used the venturi method you mention, and currently use an aquarium
pump.  They all work.  The more headspace you have in the carboy the
better "rockin' and rollin'" works.  If you're tight on headspace, an
interim "rock and roll" session with the carboy 3/4 full can help.  

I'll be switching to direct injection of O2 as soon as I can figure
out the fittings between the CFC and the O2 tank.

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or 
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't 
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:05:51 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re:  Charleston, S.C. and Savannah, GA

Rob Dittmar asks about Savannah and Charleston.

I've heard really good things about Moon River Brewing Company in Savannah.
It's run by John Pinkerton, who used to be (head?)brewer at Frederick
Brewing in Maryland.  I've not been there myself, but some good friends
(whose beer opinions I trust) have been and had good things to say.

Can't help with Charleston, sorry.

Mark Nelson
Atlanta, GA



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:03:28 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Temperature controller help...

From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>

>I had a temperature controller failure for my beer freezer

Oooh, it happened to me also, gee what a stare of disbelief I gave the
frosty kegs.  Funny thing, I had a dopplebock and an ale, and after
defrosting for a couple days, the beer seemed OK.   I drank it anyhow and
enjoyed it without any noticeable effect.

I carefully checked for keg bulging, but lucky for me, I could find none, I
think because they were only half full of beer.  This allowed the expansion
up rather than out.

About the relay contacts, if that is what happened, the contacts stuck
closed, then I must recommend that cleaning would not be the best way to fix
the relay.  The contacts will stick because of pitting, an uneven surface of
peaks and valleys.  Now here's the problem - think of these contacts as
Velcro.  Get the idea, they stick because of the peaks and valleys mating.
You can clean the contacts (actually file them with a relay burnisher), but
they will never be as reliable as before.  In fact, when they were new, they
were not all that good. After all, they stuck.

So without slamming the manufacturer, I would say if it happened once, it
could happen again.  Try to find a solid state relay to replace the
mechanical one.  It may be possible to add to your controller.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:30:10 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: carbonic/pH

Del says (and yes we are playing nice offline) ...

>I have seen champagne bottles in catalogs that are rated at 6 and 8
>atmospheres, 88 to 117 pounds! perhaps our friendly S. Bayanus
>has been selected to ferment at these elevated pressures.

'Food Chemistry' (Belitz&Grosch) state that champagnes
are ~4atm of CO2, and the most carbonated mousseux's
are 4.5 to 5 atm.  It takes champagne yeast (which are not
even S.cerevis)  "several months" to reach this carbonation
levels.  This is an impaired fermentation.  The "Bohi process"
is a commercial method of preserving wine 'must' by applying
8atm of CO2 pressure -  this stops all yeast *fermentation*.


>Also
>at 35-45 psi yeast stops? how come we can get bottle bombs?

The paper states that "At about 2.5 to 3 atm carbon dioxide
is reported to prevent cell division completely".  They also state
"In contrast, alcohol production is still unaffected at 4 atm".
Growth is stopped, not fermentation.  I believe this is a measure
of CO2 head pressure above ambient.

The higher CO2 levels interfere with an enzyme involved in
AcetylCoA and fatty acid production.  Also it inhibits the
uptake of certain amino acids.  MAy affect carbohydrate uptake.

>That is why (theoretically) we get a supersaturated solution when
>there are no nucleation sites right?

Basically yes, but you'll get supersaturation anytime CO2 level
is out of equilibrium due to fermentation.  The amount depends
on a lot of factors (fermentor depth, temp, agitation, circulation)
but figures from 1.2 to 2.0 volumes of CO2 in vented fermenter
is normal during active fermentation.

>>There is even speculation in the lit that the primary
effect of yeast nutrients is that they act as nucleation
sites and reduce CO2 concentrations !!<<

>Heard this before and the question that comes to mind is,
>"why don't the yeasts themselves act as nucleation sites?" 

Their slimy little shells have no sharp edges; they may make
poor nucleation sites.  I have a lot of unanswered questions
about this too.

>A few yeast nutrients do contain yeast hulls, but these aren't
>much larger than the source yeasts.

I have no answer except to speculate about live cell surface
characteristics.  I don't think area is the factor. It is also
possible that some other factor (not CO2) related to
particulates stimulates yeast.

To give a more clear example re particulates JIB v60#5,pp1519,
Canadian researchers ferment a 35-36P(!!) glucose+nutrient
solution using a commercial lager yeast (NCYC1324).

In the control fermentation the final dissolved solids is a whopping
20.2P. Adding alumina powder caused the final solids on a
separate run to drop to 6.8 (~13%ABV) Also the yeast mass
was somewhat higher, and the yeast viability was dramatically
higher !!

I wouldn't jump to final conclusions about why - but particulates
clearly have an impact, and CO2 is the suspect.

 -S






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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:38:32 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Jim's Buckwheat Malt

Jim wonders about his low extraction from a buckwheat mash 1.022 OG.
He states that he stopped the malting after 2.5 days when the roots
(or maybe acrospires?) (sic) were 3/4 of an inch long.

Well, based on what I have read in Malting and Brewing Science and
Malts and Malting by Briggs, barley is considered to be fully modified
when the acrospire is 75-100% of the length of the seed. No mention is
made of rootlet length.

Two points: 1. That the alpha amylase is created de novo in the
aleurone layer during malting. And of course they are denatured by
heat. I don't have my references with me to know if your drying
schedule was perhaps excessive, but that is a possibility for poor
yield.
2. That a maltsters key job is to judge when the malt is modified
enough without the developing plant using up all of the endosperm. Big
tradeoff there. So, perhaps the malt became "over-modified" and the
plant ate up all of your starches.  I have a feeling that this is the
reason. Maybe not overmodified per se, but that buckwheat is not a
traditional malting material and has not been cultivated for high
yield.

Hmmm, I explain it better in my book. See
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12.html

Hope this helps,
John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
www.howtobrew.com/





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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:59:16 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Aerated starters

Speaking of aerated starters, I've done this a few times and
thought I'd pass along my experience.  

As a disclaimer, I am a yeast abuser.  Not a recovering yeast abuser,
but an active yeast abuser.  I do not step-up my starters, but
directly innoculate 1500 ml of media in one fell swoop.  I refrigerate
my starters, let them flocculate, and decant the supernatant pitching
only the sludge.  Yeast are hearty buggers.  I am quite strict and
careful in my sanitation using lots of iodophor and soaking everything
including my hands.

I work for a biotech company where we (they, not I) do lots of cell
culture work including yeast.  Nearly all of it is done aerobically,
and I wanted to try it at home, but did not want to invest in cell
culture flasks, so I came up with a home alternative.

A cell culture flask is a squat erlenmeyer flask with a relatively
narrow throat.  The flasks come with a stainless steel sleeve
(basically a cup) that has raised radial spokes pressed into the
bottom and lengthwise down the sides.  This sleeve is inverted over
the mouth of the flask and acts as a "nasty" barrier.  The raised
spokes keep the bottom and sides of the sleeve a few millimeters away
from the mouth and sides of the flask, creating a torturous route for
any "nasties".  O2 can diffuse into the flask by traveling up, and CO2
can diffuse out by traveling down.  After innoculation the media is
agitated in the flask, either shaken or stirred, however you like your
martinis.

Standard erlenmeyer flasks are relatively easy to come by and even the
larger ones, are fairly inexpensive.  I use a 2 L flask.  The most
expensive part of the equipment is a magnetic stirrer, but it is not
strictly necessary.  If you start your starter on a weekend, you can
agitate it every waking hour or so simply by gently swirling the
flask.  You could put it on the dryer or washing machine while it is
running.

A 250 ml beaker fits nearly perfectly over the mouth of a 2 L e-flask.
It's about the right length too.  Cut 3 pieces of 3/8" vinyl tubing
about 1/2" long.  Slit each piece lengthwise.  These pieces can now
be "clipped" over the edge of the mouth of the e-flask to keep the
beaker from sealing the mouth of the e-flask.  Invert the beaker
over the mouth of the flask.  You now have an aerobic cell culture
flask.

For what it's worth here's my process to produce a 1.040-1.045
starter.  200 grams light dry malt extract, 11 grams ammonium
sulphate, dissolved in 1700 ml of water and vigorously boiled for
30-45 minutes.  Allow to cool while covered. Beaker, flask with tubing
bits on mouth, and squares of foil are soaked in iodophor while the
media is boiling.  When cool enough not to risk breaking the flask
1500 ml of media is transferred to the flask and the flask sealed with
foil.  I don't rinse the iodophor off the flask.  I just hold it
upside down for about a minute and let it drip.  Yeast are hearty
buggers.  Cool the sealed flask in a sink of cold water.  Maintain
sanitary conditions when pitching to the media then cover with the
beaker.  I stir on a medium speed for a few days.

The reason I suggest only filling the flask to the 1500 ml level is
for foam retention.  You can get a very active fermentation going.  
If you are constantly stirring the foam will be knocked down to an
extent, but if you are going to leave the flask unagitated for hours,
say you were going to go to sleep, then you need the headspace.  I
suggest putting the flask on a tray until you are familiar with the
procedure.  Foam overs are no big deal, as the foam just oozes out
from under the beaker.  If it happens, remove the beaker, cap the
flask with a foil square, rinse the beaker in hot water, and clean the
neck of the flask with hot water and a fresh paper towel.  Remove foil
and replace the beaker.

After a few days, I turn off the stirrer and wait 12-24 hours to see
if the fermentation is complete.  If so, seal the mouth of the flask
with foil and stick it in the refrigerator for a few days until I'm
ready to use it.  On brew day, the yeast cake is well compacted and
decanting the spent media is easy.  Divert a bit of fresh wort into
the flask, resuspend the yeast, and pitch it.

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:52:14 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oh Well

SCIENTIST COMING UP DRY ON HANGOVER CURE
from The Dallas Morning News

[...]
Earlier this month, in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine, Wiese and
his colleagues from the University of California, San Francisco, described
the results of 108 studies on hangovers conducted since 1965.

The conclusions: Hangovers are not well understood and not treatable. Only
one study, which suggested that vitamins taken before drinking might thwart
hangover symptoms, offers hope of escape. Hangovers cost the economy
billions of dollars annually from missed work time. Too many of them and a
person may risk cardiovascular damage.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/hang27m_20000627
 .html

 -S




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:44:18 -0400
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Where in Oz....

Greetings,

Phil wrote (& I don't think Jill even knew about it..)
>Bill, for my part, I live in Burradoo. I do believe I have made that
painfully clear to everybody.
>Are you telling me there are people in the world who don't know the
whereabouts of Burradoo?
>Are you suggesting I am Baron of an unknown province?

I think I know where that is...It a bit north of Vienna--close to the
Germany border!
God, I love Austria!
____________________________________________
Bret A. Morrow
Hamden, CT (named after Lord Hampden by a very poor speller), USA



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:50:53 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Framboise/Greece

Joel,

Framboise is a normal lambic for the first year of its life. It is then blended
with other lambics to get the right blend of funky belgian flavors,
brettomyceses and acidic balance. Then for the second year of its life it is
racked onto 1 or 2 lbs of berries per gallon and left to sit for a year. It is
then bottled and sugar primed with new yeast. Estimated production time: 26
months. Your friend has really good taste. :<)

yes, you could cheat and cut down the time, and use syrups...but then you
couldn't call it a lambic, could you? American fruit wheat with a bad infection
maybe, but not a lambic :<)  (Sorry, just feeling a little spoiled after
drinking that case of Hansen's at the AHA National Convention....Eat your heart
out Jim Liddel!!!)


Professor John ,
Subject: Beer in Greece

Keep a sharp lookout for beer in Greece, if you see any--RUN!!!! All of the
greek beer I have had was terrible. I once opened a bottle of hand carried Troy
Pilsner at Bill Pfieffers house. Bill was sitting at the other end of the 8Ft
banquet table from me. I opened it with a huge Pfhsst!! This beer was so
overcarbonated and so Skunky, that Bill asked me to remove it from the house
before I even had a chance to pour it! Oh, it was discusting. Spencer will back
me up on this... Stick to drinking the wine, its much better. If you want a good
beer on this trip fly home through Brussles.

Phil Wilcox




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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:50:28 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Questions

In HBD #3363  Tom Riddle has questions about changes in homebrewing.

1) Add the grains to the water, or water to the grains?  Or does it
matter? I seem to vaguely remember something about balls of malt dust
forming in one scenario, but not the other??

I usually put the water into the mash/lauder tun first so I can stabilize
the temp before adding the gains.  I have read that in order to avoid
"dry balls" forming in the mash that you should "Dough In".  This means
to sprinkle the brewing liquor onto the grains and mix until all the mash
is wet before adding the rest of the liquor for you mash.  I may try it
next time to see if it increases my extract efficiency.


2) When recirculating the first runnings, how clear is clear? 
Transparent or just free of particles?  Miller says to recirculate for
upto 15mins ?!?!Again I seem to vaguely recall something about leaching
tannins from the grain husk if you recirculate/sparge too much ??  What
are the consequences of not recirculating enough ?

I think that transparent is a bit of a stretch, IMHO.  I'd shoot for no
particles (some one will probably disagree).  Your grain bed should form
in less that 15 min - if not, stir it up, let it settle, and try again. 
I wouldn't worry about recirc too long, I've seen someone recirc
constantly to prevent scorching while direct firing the mash tun.  As far
as tannins, you may have a problem by sparging too long or too hot (over
170F).


3) Concerning aeration of wort before pitching.  This is one topic that
seems to have gotten very popular over the past few years.  Is an
aquarium or hand pump really necessary or will a simple venturi device
(copper tubing with a few small holes drilled into it) at the end of the
racking tube suffice?

As with most topics in brewing, you will get as many different opinion as
there are brewers.  Some people actually bubble pure O2 though the cooled
wort.  Personally, I just shake the hell out of the carboy to aerate the
wort.  Your venturi tube should work just fine, IMHO.  In fact, I have
considered moving to a similar device, maybe this will light a fire under
me.  Good luck and welcome back.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:15:00 -0400
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: pop-tops

Brewers:
    All this nostalgia for church keys is is wonderful.  It brings back
lots of (good) memories.
   However, I have not read any posts discussing the dangers of the
(then) new pop-tops.  I have read comments about the
environmental/ecological damage from these new inventions, but my
recollections from that long-ago time is the sliced thumbs!  When I was
in high school, it was a badge of honor!  You sliced your thumbs on the
sharp edges, often sterilizing the wound with whatever you were
drinking.  Blood was often on your shirt-fronts.
   Parents of course would ask, 'Dear, how did you slice your thumb?'
(As if they did not know!)
   I grew up in D.C., and the beverage of choice then was Colt-45 Malt
Liquor in the 8 oz. cans.  Truly foul stuff, but when one is a teenager
in search of beer-thrills, you would drink anything.  And Colt-45s were
"cool"!
   Isn't progress great?!

Paul Mahoney
Roanoke, Va.



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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:32:17 -0400
From: "Eric Ahrendt" <sid at nwohio.com>
Subject: More Ohio beer law trivia

Just when you think you've got Ohio's liquor laws straight - 

Did you know it's legal to purchase beer here starting at 5:30 AM on a
Sunday?  I mean, why?


Eric Ahrendt
Brewing in Clyde (a.k.a. Winesburg), Ohio


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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:36:15 EDT
From: "Al Beers" <albeers at hotmail.com>
Subject: bulging extract can

Greetings all,
Received a couple cans of Mountmellick stout extract which "expire" in Sept. 
of 2001. They are bulging a little. Should I: a) toss 'em or
b) Use w/ caution? Contents will be boiled for an hour....
Is there a chance the contents are ok, and if so how would one know?
TIA (private response ok)

Don't take life too seriously...you won't get out alive.

Al
albeers at hotmail.com

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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