---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  home brew info ("Susan Mcgrath")
  RE: BAC Rant (Bob Sheck)
  Capt. America... (Sonny Baca)
  Fw: can you overdo hop flavour, Phils stolen idea ("Graham Sanders")
  no sparge ... ("Stephen Alexander")
  Fridge woes (fridgeguy)
  garden variety oxalic acid ("Dr. Pivo")
  honey (John Penn)
  Re: Hitch Hikers And Homebrewing (David Lamotte)
  Porkert grain mill ("Bill Riel")
  alkaline-shmalkaline ("Stephen Alexander")
  Content Definitions ("Dr. Pivo")
  solvent (category 4) ("Dr. Pivo")
  Uh-oh, they're on to me! ("Brian Lundeen")
  re:  Question about a keg ("Poirier, Bob")
  Correction (AJ)
  What !!??!!  Stupid alcohol laws. ("Stephen Alexander")
  thermo answer to L. Bonham ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Where to get empty "nip" bottles (John Baxter Biggins)
  My First Batch of Homebrew ("Leland Heaton")
  Re: phenolic flavors (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Bavarian helles (Spencer W Thomas)
  Breweries in N California (Nathan Kanous)
  Entertaining Ray ("Eric J Fouch")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:09:10 +1000
From: "Susan Mcgrath" <smcgrath at CSU.edu.au>
Subject: home brew info

Hi

My husband is just starting to make homebrew.  We live in Australia 
and you can get kits here.  He has started on the kits and has found 
them to be easy.

He has made up a system of  four kegs that he has attached to the 
fridge in his  brewery.  He also has them so that they can be 
connected to taps on the outside of the fridge (for easy access!).

My question is that we were wondering if anyone has any faviourite 
homebrew receipes that they could send us (we were hoping to start 
with something fairly easy and work up to harder brews).  He wants to 
try and get more into making the brews from scratch instead of making 
them from kits.

Any helpers please email smcgrath at csu.edu.au

Thanks.

Sue

Sue McGrath
Academic Secretariat
Phillips Building
Bathurst Campus
Charles Sturt University
Australia


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:20:58 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE: BAC Rant

Glen Pannicke, You're RIGHT ON!

I gave up driving while/after drinking YEARS ago. I just won't do it any more!

I love to enjoy good beer and plenty of it, but when it comes to driving- I 
do it
stone cold sober or not at all.  The risks are just too great, and maybe I've
become a geezer, but I can wake up the next morning in my OWN bed with
a clean conscience.

As we learn to make better beer and fermentables, we need to insure we
enjoy them in a way that it won't endanger others.  And it is our 
responsibility
to ensure that other members and visitors to our  club meetings have a way
to get home without driving impaired.

And yes, I welcome the "alco-nazi" <s> because they are making it safer for the
rest of us.  We all share an equal stake in making sure our highways are safe.
It's not a 'manly' thing anymore to drive when impaired.

Oh, and thank you and all the rest of your Volunteer Fire Fighting/EMT folks
for doing what you do.  I feel secure in knowing the dedication and commitment
to your self-chosen duties that you are on call for us 24/7.




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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:20:03 -0600
From: Sonny Baca <baca2000 at zianet.com>
Subject: Capt. America...


Luke
Australia
that is, Luke from Australia, not Luke Australia. Silly name really. But

then, there is a captain America isn't there! I wonder what his first
name
is?  Freddy America?


The Capt. America that I would most relate to is the Peter Fonda
character from the "Easyrider" flick (1969), not the Marvel comic book
charcter. He rode a Panhead (Harley-Davidson models from 1948-66). So,
from an old Panhead rider and beer drinker (and amateur brewer amongst
other things), how would Peter answer this question? And more
importantly, how many homebrews would it take? Hmmm...
                                        Sonny...



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:08:47 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Fw: can you overdo hop flavour, Phils stolen idea

G'day all

I am on my experimentation phase of my cycle at the moment.  It really
pisses off SWMBO.  "You make good beer" she will blast, "why the hell do
have to keep trying new things out" (funny she never said that about our
love life when she was younger and more bearable - but thats another story).

Anyway I have been on a bit of a FWHing buzz at the moment.  I'm almost
burnt out on it.  The interesting thing is that one of those myths I thought
was it was almost impossible to overly flavour a beer with hops.  Impressed
with the flavour FWHing can impart, I thought "why not put all my hops in as
FWH".  So for a Vienna (dont tell me that it should be a-tuned to malt, I
know), I decided to throw in 60 grams of Halertauer (for 38 litres) as FWH.

rockies ---------- of hop flavour.  In fact to some people too much, they
couldn't drink it.  Others were outright stunned with the flavour.  I found
it exciting, but when I get a number of people saying WHOA, SHIT, and other
not even wanting to drink it, well I have come to the conclusion that

YES YOU CAN GO OVERBOARD ON HOP FLAVOUR. (for some that is)

As for Phils new found discovery of the portable 10 litre dispensing keg in
the back of the car, If he was to visit the regions of North Queensland, he
would find these very commonplace.  We up here put handles on them and just
carry them arround with us.  We even have insulated carry cases for them.
And we have mini gascylinders to go with them.  They are our stubbies up
here, convenient for an afternoon out when the tropical heat bites and you
feel like a cool one (or a backpacker if she is close enough).  Surprised
you lot down there have just discovered them.  Well not really, our little
secrets are bound to escape sooner or later.

Shout

Graham Sanders



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:47:12 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: no sparge ...

I've been doing side-by-side no-sparge vs sparge-only
beers for several months and I have even performed a couple
triangle tests (which only asked about taste) and maltiness is a key
advantage of no-sparge and there is generally a preference for
no-sparge flavor.  I do find a couple disturbing patterns tho'.

The sparge-only beers usually have better head and often much
better!

The sparge-onlies clear faster with better final clarity.

The sparge beers seem to taste a little thin (same OG) particularly
in mid-taste; they finish stronger tho'.  The sparge-onlies offer
something extra and flavorful on the middle of the tongue by
comparison.

There may be some differences in hops aroma and bitterness
resulting from identical hopping schedules.

Perhaps most telling the sparge-only kegs always emptied first
 - seemed more palatable as a session beer (which isn't to say
it would judge better).

To me the no-sparges lagers seem to attain clean and smooth
characteristics quicker. In other applications I am a bit less
enamored of no-sparge and will probably drop back to simple
undersparging.

All of these beers were brewed with step mash conditions.  I think
it is would be interesting to repeat with decoction.  I think many of
the differences attributable to sparge can be related to extraction
of caramel and maillard flavor compounds early and phenolic
compounds (both good and vile ones) late. 
Decoction may be a different story.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:59:01 -0500
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: Fridge woes

Greetings folks,

 In HBD #3375, Robert Phelan asks for info about setting temperature
controller differential.

 Commercial refrigeration systems use many different types of
temperature controllers, some use pressure control, and others use a
combination of the two.

 I have seen both temperature controllers and pressure controllers
that adjust with the two-screw method. Both controllers use a spring-
loaded metal bellows to operate a switch. A pressure controller's
bellows is connected directly to the refrigeration system and operates
the switch based on the system pressure.

 Temperature controllers work in exactly the same way but have the
bellows, cap tube and a sensor bulb filled with liquid/gas mixture
sealed inside. The mixture expands and contracts with changes in
temperature, operating the switch.

 Two-screw controllers are adjusted by first setting the "cut-in" or
differntial to minimum (counterclockwise). Set the "cut-out" screw to
shut the compressor off at the desired temperature. Allow the cabinet
temperature to rise to the desired cut-in point and turn the cut-in
screw clockwise until the compressor starts.

 Be aware the two adjustments will interact so it will be necessary to
repeat the settting procedure until both values are correct.

 Temperature controllers of this type usually have a minimum
differential of about 2 degF (at the probe). Pressure controllers
between 1-3 PSIG.

 Look carefully at the control system on this fridge and review the
schematic, if there is one. It is common for this type of unit to use
a temperature controller to operate a refrigerant liquid line solenoid
valve. The compressor will actually be started and stopped via a
pressure controller connected to the low-pressure side of the system.
This method allows frequent compressor cycling without damage to the
system. Both controllers must be set correctly in such systems.

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - Fridgeguy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:01:33 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: garden variety oxalic acid

John Palmer wrote some good advice about cleaning up stainless:

> Use an oxalic acid-based stainless steel cleanser
> and a non-metallic scrubby pad 

If you've got any rhubarb growing in you're garden you can chuck some in
and boil it in there for free... plenty of oxalic there and the stuff
gets real shiny.

It could be a good idea to take the rhubarb out afterwards, before your
next brew.

Dr. Pivo

P.S. In concurrence with current safety practices, and to assure no
ensuing law suits from across the waves, I must add:
 
Do NOT press the boiling hot rhubarb into your eyes, and even though
mature stalks can be quite stringy so you may be tempted to macrame'
some decorations with it, do NOT tie it around the necks of babies in
very tight knots.


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:31:39 -0400
From: John Penn <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: honey

Michael asks about honey to carbonate a 6 gallon batch of beer...
   Made the mistake of using a full cup of honey to carbonate a 5 gallon
batch once per Papazian's recommendation.  That's about twice what you
need.  I use on the order of 1/2 cup for a 5 gallon batch, little more
if you like well carbonated ales, a little less for darker beers or
moderate carbonation.  So for 6 gallons of an average gravity ale, I'd
probably suggest about 5/8 cup of honey and experiment up and down to
see what kind of carbonation you like best.  Of course it's always best
to make sure your beer has stopped fermenting (couple weeks typically)
because it only takes 2-3 pts to carbonate that beer!  Hope that helps.
   John Penn



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:54:22 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hitch Hikers And Homebrewing

Phil enticingly wrote ...

> And if by chance, when I peel back the tarp,
> A couple of good looking hitch hikers have jumped a ride.
> Well I'll share the moment with Dave.
> In Oz we're like that.

I was going to save the following quote as a witty sig line, but Phil's
post provides the perfect moment for its debut.

Now I am not going to start the 'prohibited imports' thread again, but we
down under have a suffered an outbreak of a particularly nasty import - the
game show called "Who wants to be a millionaire".  

I find it really poor viewing, but there was one moment where the following
was heard...

GAME SHOW HOST TO CONTESTANT:

"What would you do if you won the million dollars ?"

CONTESTANT (male):

"Well ......., I guess I would spend the first $900,000 on women and beer,
and then basically just waste the rest"


So Phil, if I ever win a million, I now know who to share it with....

Cheers,

David Lamotte
Brewing in the Burradoo tropics 
Newcastle, N.S.W Australia


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:42:58 -0700
From: "Bill Riel" <briel at uniserve.com>
Subject: Porkert grain mill

On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:27:21 -0400, Dick Roark wrote :

>Does anyone know anything about the Porket grain mill?  I understand
>that it's made in Italy and is priced similarly to a Corona.  I have
>looked around for some information on this, but so far no luck.

I'm pretty sure you're referring to the Porkert mill which is made in
the Czech Republic. I have one, and it's a plate mill just like the
Corona. In fact, locally (that would be in Victoria, British Columbia),
the Corona can't be found, but homebrew shops stock the Porkert.

I should add that I've never actually seen a real, live Corona, but
from the pictures I would guess that the Porkert mill is virtually
identical.

- --
Bill



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:21:49 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: alkaline-shmalkaline

Dave B writes ...

>What is the actual experience with pH in water treating when lime is added
>to a bicarbonate solution?

The city says my water is around 74-88ppm alkalinity and pH 7.3-7.4,
114ppm total hardness.

For soft water I precipitate carbonate by adding 0.16gm/gal lime.
After 16-24 hours, the  resulting water reads very low alkalinity [by
test strip (low res)] and a pH of about 8.5 to 8.7.

The buffering is much lower - only abt 1/4 the acid required to hit
mash/lauter water pH as compared to tap water. Determining the
precise amount of lime needed seems to involve some guesswork
beyond the obvious calculation. As I recall mine calculated as 0.12gm/gal,
but it wasn't enough.

To use lime you need a very accurate scale and some test trials and
patience.  Food grade lime is available at canning supply places for
prewashing pickles.  Water test strips available at aquarium shops.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:42:01 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Content Definitions

There is just so much to read!

As the contents of the HBD continue to bulge there way right off of
Pat's server, and there is far too much to read through, I am going to
propose some sort of content definitions.

For us slow readers, this might better help us choose whether the
missive has any interest for us or not.

I am simply proposing that, in addition to the title, each submitter
appends a "category definition", so that the prospective reader might
know whether it may be of interest or not.

I would propose the following....

Category 1: "experiental"

These are all the "I've been doing (or seeing) such and such for a long
time, and it seems to give pleasant results". There is a large number
(though probably not enough) being submitted here. They often can be
recognized by some sort of "Rennerian coordinate" identification.

Category 2: "inferential"

This is the type of posting where one extracts a bit of information from
industrial brewing sources, blends in a bit of college chemistry, and
tries to wallpaper it all over the quite different experience of making
good, fresh, living, beer.  This already takes up quite a proportion of
the HBD in space, but if you really look at it, it is really quite a
small proportion of posters.  I suppose this habit is as untamed as a
malignant tumor and as addictive as heroin.


Category 3: "experimental"

Here we group all the attempts to actually try and control some
parameter, and present what seems to be going on. It could be measuring
stuff, or blind tasting, but at least making SOME attempt to be
objective... you know.... the "AJ and his test tubes" stuff.

Category 4: "serendipidous"

The observant one, will always be bumping into some funny sort of
anomalies, and some times they can be worth chasing up. Sometimes the
mere mentioning of them, will wake others to respond who have notice the
same thing.

Category 5: "silly"

You know these ones.  Like when Jill pulls out her cat-o-nines and
forces Phil to sit at the keyboard, and coarsly whispers in his ear "OK
sucker.  Make me laugh".

Now wouldn't the appendage of this simple classification system make our
screen browsing much simpler?

Myself? Lately I've kind of opted for the fives.  I used to post a bit
of category ones and threes.... but it always seemed to get buried in
"number two".  

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:42:09 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: solvent (category 4)

A true category 1 or 3 posting requires having pretty consistant control
over what's going on, and I sure don't have that now.

I am sort of "between brew houses" now, and don't have control over
anything.  You know, the sort of "Keeee-rist. I can't move that until I
get rid of this... better throw it so it gets out of the way...CRASH!...
never was much of a good throw with my left hand.  Now if I can just
nudge that car battery a little farther with my foot, then I'd have a
place to set this down."  In other words, very much like the first brew session.

In the midst of this mayhem, I produces a beer, that already after the
first fermentation, carried a taste and smell that was very reminiscent
of, well... acetone.

I had never really ever met anything like it, so I asked another brewer
over to see what he thought.

There is nothing the lads like better than hazing each other, so it
wasn't long before I was hearing "I here you've stopped working on
diacetyl, and started working on diacetone" in public places.

The taste was so bizarre my first thought was some sort of
contamination, but I re-pitched the yeast and there was not a trace of it.

I do think I have figured out the source, but rather than speculate on
that, it may be of more interest to tell what happened to it.

I took one portion and did a classic "krauzen lagering".  For the
non-initiated, one takes a finished cleared beer (the diacetone), and
mix it with about 10 percent of a beer that is rocking on at the peak of
its primary.  The classic lagering is then, about two weeks at a
somewhat reduced temperature (the carbonating phase) and then as long as
one is patient at a quite reduced temperature (the actual lagering).

It actually turned out quite nice! Knowing that that taste was there,
one could find it in the finished product, but it was very subtle, and
one might almost say it contributed to "sweetness".

As a side note, I kegged two kegs of the stuff, artificially carbonated
them, and let them run through the same temperature steps (without the
krauzen addition), and they remained absolutely repugnant.

And the point of all this you may ask?

I have long thought that krauzen lagering presents some unique
characters in beer, and primarily maintains them in a virginal cellar
state for an incredibly long time.  I've always attributed this to the
incredible reductive power of the yeast at that stage in their life.
I've even tried this on patently stale beer to see if it would reduce
oxidised flavours (it doesn't).  While it may fail that, it does at
least seem to be capable of taking care of some kinds of problems, and
that may make it a handy tool to have in your back pocket.

Unless of course you want 140 litres of nail polish remover.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:10:13 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Uh-oh, they're on to me!

Glen Pannicke countered my rant with:

> Brian, I'm no "alco-nazi" and this is not intended as a flame
> either.  But I
> cannot agree with your viewpoint for one reason:  Fines,
> surcharges and jail
> terms DON'T BRING BACK THE DEAD.

Glen, I respect where you are coming from on this, and I'm sorry that you
have to see this as part of your volunteer work. I could probably write a
Digest's worth on this argument alone, but I'm afraid it would just paint me
as a very cold, cynical person, and I don't feel like doing that. I just
wanted to clarify that I don't regard people such as yourself as alco-nazis.
That is a term that I reserve for zero-tolerance,
absolutely-no-alcohol-in-the-bloodstream zealots. There obviously is a need
for some control, and I don't have a problem with a BAC limit of less than
 .10. My fear is that the zealots are slowly taking control of this issue and
we will soon find ourselves faced with excessively punitive and restrictive
laws that will have severe social and economic impacts.

Now, I'm beginning to think I've said too much on this as it is. Coming to
work this morning on my regular route, I notice a police car sitting in the
curb line. As soon as I go by, he takes off and starts hanging off my bumper
for several blocks. Now maybe it's just because I drive a customized TJ with
loud music blaring from the sound bar, maybe it's not. I guess it's a good
thing I'm not paranoid. I mean, it's silly to think that Internet activity
is being monitored by law enforcement personnel, isn't it? ;-)

Cheers

Brian



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:29:05 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: re:  Question about a keg

Greetings.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2000, Bill Wilbe asks about a keg his Dad gave him.  
It sure sounds like a Hoff-Stevens style keg.  I've got one also.  You will 
definitely need a new bung if yer gonna pry out the old one in order to clean 
the keg - Sabco (http://www.kegs.com, no affiliation, yada, yaya...) sells 
new poplar bungs ($25 for a box of 100) in two sizes.  I scored a used 
two-probe tap for under $10 - KegMan (http://www.ceisites.com/kegman/, again, 
NAYY...) will sell ya a new one fer around $20.

Hope this helps...

Bob Poirier
East Haven, CT


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:41:32 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Correction

>One millimole
>of acid with one millimole of base in a liter of water gives the same
pH
>as one mole of acid and one millimole of base (ionic strength
>cosiderations aside).

in yesterday's post should read"

"...the same pH as one mole of acid and one mole of base (ionic strength

cosiderations aside)."

Thanks to Steve Alexander for pointing this out and apologies to
everyone else.

A.J.



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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:38:30 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: What !!??!!  Stupid alcohol laws.

Wil Kolb, happydog at nations.net writes ...

>Ask a young beer drinker living in STL (21 y/o drinking age in Mo. and
>19 y/o across the river for men and 18 y/o for women)

A week+ ago I was concerned that Ohio lead the US in stupid alcohol laws.

Now you tell me that in Illinois [US public school attendees take note -
Ohio
is not across the river from Missouri]  the legal drinking age depends on
genitalia ?  Didn't Illinois ratify the ERA ?  Are those guys in Peoria just
a bunch of lech's hoping to pick-up drunken 18yo girls ?

What force replaces irrationality with  rationality in governance ?

 -S







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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:29:53 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: thermo answer to L. Bonham

Louis posed the following question a few weeks ago around July 7 -

The question:  Assume that the inner vessel is filled with 50 liters of
water at 40C, and covered with an insulated lid.  Assume that there are 20
liters of fluid (water, glycol, or oil) in the shell that can be maintained
at a constant temperature by recirculating from a larger, heated reservior.
Approximately how hot would the heating fluid have to be to be raise the
temp of the 50 liters of water in the inner chamber to 70C in under 30
minutes?

All the best -- Louis K. Bonham
                     Houston, Texas

Answer is slightly above the 70degC temperature that you want to hit.  I
think I got about 1deg F higher in fact.  This is for when the heating fluid
is oil for which I had heat transfer data for.  When heating fluid is water,
it is slightly less efficient and would need a bit higher temperature.  Heat
losses will contribute a bit too and this is tough to estimate quickly
atleast.  It also assumes uniform temperature within the vessel which is
only posible with adequate mixing (not easy to model stagant, natural heat
transfer)

I would go with a few degrees above the 70degC and then you should be all
set.

Equation used is a solution to the differential heat transfer equation and
is on page 11-118 Perrys Chemical Engineers Handbook, seventh edition.

Hope this helps.

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:12:25 -0400
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Where to get empty "nip" bottles

Good friend of mine is getting married & am brewing a high gravity mead for
the occasion.  I plan to put if in small nip bottles & make special labels.
I was wondering does anyone know a good source, commercial or otherwise,
for these bottles?  Silk-screened Rolling Rock & Rogue emptries won't do.
So far, I'm tempted to use empty 1-serving Perrier bottles after removing
labels, but can't find any now.

Private email welcome.

 -john


- -------------------
John B. Biggins
Cornell University Medical College
Weill Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Student -- Program in Pharmacology

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Laboratory for Biosynthetic Chemistry
Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Therapeutics
lab:(212)693-6405   fax:(212)717-3135
http://www.ski.edu/lab_homepage.cfm?lab=189

	"Science, like Nature, must also be tamed
	   With a view towards its preservation.
	 Given the same state of integrity
	   It will surely serve us well."
	    -- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves




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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:40:27 PDT
From: "Leland Heaton" <rlheaton at hotmail.com>
Subject: My First Batch of Homebrew

I did my first batch (of many more to come) of homebrew.  It was West Coast 
Pale Ale, from a beer kit (U.S. Version).  I bottled on Monday. I had a 
partial bottle, and instead of bottling it I decided to do a premature taste 
test.  I have been tasting everything I put in my beer, because I want to 
know what everything tastes like throughout the entire process.  The beer 
smelled like beer out of the airlock, but when I tasted it (in my 
non-carbonated half bottle) I noticed two things.

1.) It did not taste like the wort I made.
   I expected this result.  But was expecting a little resemblence.
2.) My beer tasted like a $2.99 plastic Vons brand charcoaled filtered vodka 
(yes, we used to drink this in college).

I assume that something went wrong.  To test this I let a bit stay out in 
the open to "get contaminated" so I could compare the results.  It wasn't my 
version of contaminated.  I guess I should wait the two weeks of bottling 
before I get worried, but does anyone have any suggestions, or is this how 
WestCoast Pale Ale is supposed to taste?

Thank you

 -Leland
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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:41:13 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: phenolic flavors 

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> writes:
    >> Does a high(er) percentage of wheat malt contribute to phenolic
    >> flavoring in a beer?

    Jeff> No.

Not strictly true.

Wheat contains ferulic acid (or a precursor thereof), which is itself
a precursor to 4-vinyl-guaiacol (as explicated by S. Alexander earlier
this month).  

So, if you have a yeast that is prone to producing 4VG, you will get
more phenolic "clove" character from a beer with wheat in it than from
a beer with no wheat.

An Anecdote: 

I recently visited a local brewpub (left nameless to protect the, um
 ...., innocent?)  The brewer was there.  After greeting him ("Hi
Greg"), I asked my usual "sucking up to the brewer" question:

I asked, "What do you recommend?"  
He said, "We've got a Bavarian stout."  
I said, "A what?"
He said, "We fermented a stout with Bavarian weizen yest."
I thought, "Sounds awful."

But, you know, it wasn't.

In fact, there was very little clove character at all.  The yeast
might have contributed a subtle smokiness, and the beer was quite
drinkable.

So there you have it.  A beer that was made with no wheat, but with a
yeast known to produce clove-phenolic character, didn't have the
phenolic character.

Disclaimer: the plural of anecdote is NOT data.  :-)

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:53:42 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bavarian helles 

>>>>> "Epic8383" == Epic8383  <Epic8383 at aol.com> writes:


    Epic8383> aroma hops go in at or just before shutting down the
    Epic8383> boil. I wouldn't want to let the wort sit for 15 min.
    Epic8383> before cooling, especially with a delicately balanced
    Epic8383> beer like a helles. I can smell the DMS just thinking
    Epic8383> about it.  

Standard practice is, in fact, to let the beer sit for 15 minutes or
so, after whirlpooling, to let the trub settle.  Adding the aroma hops
near the end of the settling period would probably work best if you're
using a counter-flow (CF) chiller, though, as the wort in the kettle
remains near boiling temperature until it is sucked into the chiller.

In fact, when using a CF chiller, you almost have to have a rest
period before you start chilling, if you want to leave the hot break
behind in the kettle.

If you're using an immersion chiller, then you'll add the aroma hops a
few minutes before you turn on the chiller.

And, if you've boiled for a sufficiently long time (I think Dornbusch
(sp?) recommends 90 minutes), you really should not have to worry
about DMS.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:29:46 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Breweries in N California

Hi Everyone,
I've got a colleague who will be honeymooning early this fall in Northern 
California.  He'll be spending a day in San Francisco, a couple of days in 
Napa a couple in Sonoma and one last in San Fran.  He'll be doing some wine 
tasting on the way, but if there are some good breweries or pubs I could 
direct him to, I'd appreciate it.  TIA.
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:44:47 -0700
From: "Eric J Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Entertaining Ray

Phil says :
I've got the much celebrated Ray Kruse and his lovely wife Linda on their
way out here for a visit next month. Ray says he expects to be treated like
a queen (which shouldn't be hard ).

Well, coming off the tail end of entertaining Ray, a few words from the
wise:

Ray's protocol when meeting someone new is to assume they are the bartender,
and send them off for beer:

"Hi Ray!  I'm Matt.  Nice to.."
"Hi!  I'll have another IPA.  Anybody else want one?"

He also blames his pedal instability on unlikely activities such as having
spent all day on a barge, supposedly in a lake he can't remember the name
of.

He drones on and on about semi-retiring to an arid portion of Kentucky where
homebrewing is illegal, the procedes to tell you about his "water"
distillation set-up.  And his goats.

Other portions of the evening are less repeatable.

As far as being treated like a queen, I offered to take him to a local bar
of questionable testosterone content, and he oddly declined.

All in all, though, we showed Ray a good time, exchanged a few homebrews,
and pushed back the boundries of East Coast- Mid West relations.

Hopefully, you can do at least as much to fix the Ozzie-American rift that
seems to have developed of late.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI




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