---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Answers from Steve Michalak of A-B (Part 2) ("John or Barb Sullivan")
  Beer label removal (Thomas Jones)
  Re: brazing copper to stainless? (David Lamotte)
  additional light acronyms ("Dr. Pivo")
  brew pub suggestions? ("Mark Tumarkin")
  220v freezer & welding (fridgeguy)
  0,05 DUI (Ant Hayes)
  Imperial Stout ("R&P Aceto")
  The Perfect Mild (jal)
  RE: 220V Freezer questions (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Mr. Babcock's prohibition musings... (Paul Morstad)
  Drunken Beer Louts, Oat beer update, Buckwheat and Rye (Jim Adwell)
  Any Mathematicians out there? ("John Palmer")
  High priced Brewing Text recommendations ("John Palmer")
  Brazing Copper (or Brass) to Stainless Steel ("John Palmer")
  Tankless Hot Water Heater (Brad Miller)
  Mash temps, times and such. (Brad Miller)
  Re: Mr. Babcock's prohibition musings... (Some Guy)
  water labs (AKGOURMET)
  220V Freezer questions and malo (LyndonZimmermann)


* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:19:39 -0500
From: "John or Barb Sullivan" <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Answers from Steve Michalak of A-B (Part 2)

>Hugh Hoover asks:
>
>1. What areas of modern brewing research are most applicable to home
>brewing?

A. Possibly the most impact will come from the research in developing new
varieties of hops and barley.  This is always an ongoing process to develop
better flavor characteristics, disease resistance and improved agronomics. 
 Each year farmers opt not to plant the older, less profitable and less
desirable varieties.   For example, as discussed above, we now have
well-modified malts that lessen the need for protein rests.

>2. What are the best lessons from A/B brewing methods that would usefully
>scale down to the homebrewer level? (ok, that you CAN reveal :^)

A. I like to focus on kettle boiling and yeast handling.  I've occasionally
been invited to assist some home brewer in their craft and what I've
occasionally seen is a rather poor kettle boil.  Usually the  heating
equipment just cannot deliver sufficient BTUs to produce and maintain a
proper rolling boil.  They therefore do not coagulate as much trub as they
should or evaporate the dimethyl sulfide (DMS) well.  See related answer
below.  One "trick" that can be employed here is to use high gravity
brewing.  If you concentrate your wort through mashing and straining,
you'll need less heat for the smaller volume.  After the
wort boiling, sterile water can be added to return the gravity to that
desired before starting fermentation.  

For most lagers, yeast are the principle drivers of flavor.  It is critical
to maintain healthy yeast to get consistent and clean flavors.  Yeast
health is typically proportional to one thing: how long has it been since
you last fed them.  Minimizing the time that yeast is in storage can
greatly enhance the taste of your beer.  If you must hold you yeast supply
for longer than 72 hours between recovery and pitching, you may want to try
priming the yeast with a little malt extract 24 hours before pitching.  See
note answer below on acetaldehyde.  

>Dan Diana asks:
>
>In considering Budweiser and Michelob, with exception of what I perceive
>to be Acetaldehyde, these beers have a very clean palate. Are there any
>suggestions as to how you avoid such off flavors as DMS and Diacetyl. I'm
>curious if there are specific procedures that could be used during
>mashing and boiling as well as during fermentation.

A.  Acetaldehyde (AA) is a flavor active compound that is present in all
beers.  Concentration in Budweiser are well below taste threshold which is
around 6-7 ppb, depending on the taster.  AA, which is described as latex
paint, pumpkin or green apple peel, is indicative of yeast abuse (not yet
and federal crime).  Healthy yeast will readily convert AA into ethanol. 
This conversion can be impaired if your yeast zinc concentration is low or
if your yeast has been mismanaged prior to fermentation.  To keep your
yeast healthy, do not store it for more than 3 days between pitches and
keep the storage temperature between 34 and 37F.  Additionally, if you age
your beer too long with unhealthy yeast, the yeast will autolyze and
excrete AA.
 
Diacetyl (D) is naturally created early in the fermentation and later
depleted by health yeast.  Cooler fermentations produce less D and warmer
lagering depletes it faster.  Additionally, pediococcus infections will
produce D several times faster than the yeast can deplete it.  The two
major reasons you find D in a beer is that either the beer wasn't matured
long enough or that the yeast, wort or equipment was contaminated.

Dimethyl Sulfide (DMS) is naturally occurring and can be minimized through
proper hot wort handling.  Near boiling temperatures produce DMS, which is
then driven off by kettle evaporation.  A good rolling boil produces more
evaporation than a simmering one.  Additionally, once the boil is stopped,
the wort must be cooled quickly to minimize more DMS production.  At AB we
follow the kettle boil with further evaporation through our patented hot
wort aerators.
 
>Bob Poirier asks:
>
>I ran across something interesting while reading Evaluating Beer, a
>compilation of articles edited by Brewers Publications (NAYY, and the
>ISBN 0-937381-37-3).  The article is called Origins Of Normal And
>Abnormal Flavor, by Ted Konis of the Siebel Institute.  The specific
>passage that caught my attention can be found on pages 101-103, under the
>heading Oxidation.
>
>The author mentions methods of controlling oxidation introduced into beer
>post fermentation.  Two options are presented, the first being a process
>called purging, where CO2 is bubbled through the beer, which of course
>causes a lot of foaming.  
>
>The air is driven out of the beer and is replaced with CO2.  But, the
>author warns that such rough handling will certainly affect the brew's
>head (it will be decreased).
>
>The second option mentioned is the widespread use (according to the
>author) of antioxidants such as potassium metabisulfite and sodium
>metabisulfite.  He also states that many brewers have switched to the use
>of ascorbic acid or ascorbates as reducing agents.
>
>I've never heard of this before, and I was just wondering how widespread
>the use of these techniques are among pro brewers.
>

A. I can't tell you how widespread they are, only that I know they are
practiced by other breweries, both domestic and imports.  At AB we take
advantage of the fact that actively fermenting yeast will assimilate oxygen
instantly.  Once the oxygen is removed by the yeast we simply (easier said
than done) prevent it from reentering the process.  We use expensive
tankage and pipelines that can handle ample CO2 pressure.  During our
lagering process, we seal our aging tanks allowing the yeast to consume all
oxygen and to naturally generate CO2, which is kept in the beer under
pressure.  This backpressure usually prevents any further
entrainment of oxygen (provided that we properly purged all pipelines and
receiving vessels with CO2 which is recovered from primary fermentation). 
Our beers are fully carbonated in aging and are moved through the balance
of the process under CO2  atmosphere and pressure to maintain the natural
carbonation. 







Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:44:03 +1200
From: Thomas Jones <jonth957 at student.otago.ac.nz>
Subject: Beer label removal

Have you tried pouring hot(70-90 degree)water into the bottle and allowing
it to 'melt' the adhesive? Some labels use this type of adhesive, but its
usually only possible if the label has been kept dry. 
	Try it and let me know how you get on.... (The name's Tom, by the way)
  Cheers, Tom. (jonth957 at student.otago.ac.nz)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:15:22 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: brazing copper to stainless?

Nathaniel,

John Palmer, metallurgical colleague and all round good guy said all there
is to be said in a BT article available on line at :-

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.6/palmer.html

Without knowing the shape etc of you piece it is difficult to say why the
welders that you have contacted were reluctant, but there can be situations
where joins made early in the manufacturing process are difficult to repeat
once the thing is all together.

Have you tried a sheet metal fabricators or plumbers shop - they tend to be
more into soldering and brazing.

Best of Luck

David Lamotte
Brewing down under in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia
where Success is having what you want
and happiness is wanting what you have.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:54:23 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: additional light acronyms

Jeff Renner is also enamoured of inventive brewing and nomenclature and
wishes a christening for his new light beer.
 
>  he
> said he was really excited about giving his girlfriend a case of the CLAP.
> How's that, Dr. P?).

well done.

>  Let's call
> it Lite American Pilsner if it needs a name.  I'm open to other suggestions.


"Classic Rennerian American Beer Style"

He could also give his girl friend a case of those.

Dr. Pivo


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 07:02:08 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: brew pub suggestions?

Hey y'all,

A couple that are members of my homebrew club are driving from Gainesville, Fl
to Vermont and back. They'd like to stop at brew pubs on the way (damn, what a
great idea! wish I'd thought of it). Appreciate any suggestions.

On another note, I thought I'd heard that Georgia recently changed their law
prohibiting high alcohol beers - but a friend that recently went into a Ga
liquor store was told that the law hadn't been changed. Anyone know the
correct info?

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 07:12:01 -0500
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: 220v freezer & welding

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#3388, N.P. Lansing asked about the possibility of welding
copper to stainless steel.

 I can't say whether the two metals can be *welded* together although
I've seen some interesing combinations TIG'ed together. I commonly
silver-braze the two metals with good success using All-State No.155
food-grade alloy rod and their No. 110 flux. This is what I used to
attach fittings to my half-barrels on my RIMS.

 Also in the same HBD, John McGowan asked about the possibility of
just plugging his European 220v freezer into a 120v receptacle. DON'T
DO IT! The compressor will either trip its thermal overload or simply
toast the motor windings.

 Many US-made compressors are made to run at 50 Hz with reduced
output, including 230/240v and 460/480v models. I don't have any
experience with European equipment, but it is conceivable that it
could be run at 60Hz without overstressing the motor. I'd look at the
compressor's nameplate to see if it is ok to run it at 230/240v, 60Hz.
Contact the freezer's manufacturer if the tag doesn't give this info.

Most homes in the US have 240v at the main breaker or fuse panel. A
240v circuit can usually be added without much difficulty. A step-up
transformer could also be used. The cost of either solution may exceed
that of a replacement freezer, however.

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - Fridgeguy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:08:33 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: 0,05 DUI

Mark (with increasing blood pressure) in Kalamazoo asked, regarding the news
that South Africa dropped its DUI limit to 0,05,

"Are you trying to tell us that the 0.08 limit was INEFFECTUAL in prevented
drunk drivers from causing accidents???  How could this be?"

Sadly our government enacts a lot of noble legislation that is not enforced.
If you are caught by an honest officer over the DUI limit, the penalties are
very harsh. However, I have only once blown into a breathalyser - despite
driving since 1987. I have also been fortunate enough never to have been in
an accident where alcohol has been involved - but there certainly drivers
are tested.

Most alcohol related accidents in SA are actually caused by drunk
pedestrians walking into the road.

However, whilst I doubt that the new limit will do much to reduce road
deaths in South Africa, it does worry me that our club members will now
drive home further over the limit than before. If by some chance they are
caught - the impact on personal life is harsh - particularly for guys who
are members of a profession.

Can I assume tacit confession on behalf of brewing clubs represented on this
forum that they allow their members to drive home over the limit?

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:45:38 -0400
From: "R&P Aceto" <rpaceto at together.net>
Subject: Imperial Stout

Greetings,  It has been a long time since i have ventured into the
homebrewing arena, and i have had a request to brew someone an imperial
stout.  Herein lies my dilema, i do not have any decent place to start from.
So... i would appreciate it if anyone out there could help by sending me a
recepie of one of their successful imperials i would appreciate it.  Also
any assistance with your successes/failures using a champain yeast is also
much appreciated.  You can post replys or send them to me directly.  i thank
you in advance for your kindness and assistance.

Russ A.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:49:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: The Perfect Mild



Stephen Ross asks for advice in making the perfect, big-
flavored mild. I made a pretty damn good one last 
spring by brewing a 1.085 imperial stout, fermenting it 
with the Wyeast Thames Valley yeast (I forget the 
number), racking off 1.5 gallons, and diluting with 3 
gallons RO water. This yielded a big-flavored 1.028 (or 
so) dark mild, a fine session beer.

This was a kitchen-sink recipe that included DWC pale 
ale, aromatic, Munich, biscuit, special B, 60L crystal, 
roasted barley, chocolate, and a long boil. (If anyone 
wants the details, I'll dig up the recipe at home.)

I bottled the stout a couple weeks ago, but the mild is 
long gone. 

Jim Larsen
Omaha, NE


- --------------------------------------------------
Novia Web Mail Interface http://webmail.novia.net/



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:49:42 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: 220V Freezer questions

From: john.mcgowan at us.abb.com

>Already in our basement is a small freezer (that would hold a couple of
cornies)
>left over from when we lived in Europe. The problem - obviously - is that
this
>freezer operates on 220V, 50Hz while I am living 120V, 60Hz land.

We no got 50Hz, but hey we ain't so backwards that we don't have 220V.
How did you get that freezer past the flight attendant?  Oh, I know, musta
had it shipped by boat.  Did you really ship a freezer from Europe?  ;>)

>What would happen if I just plugged this baby into the wall?

A lot of humming sound, then a higher power bill next month.

>Or would you recommend a transformer (not a cheap endeavor)?  If it is okay
to plug it in "as
>is" would I still need an external regulator? Or would the reduced voltage
just
>not fully power the compressor so that freezing temperatures wouldn't be
>reached?

A transformer probably would work, but expensive.  If you can get 220 or
240V (and it should be possible just about anywhere now in the US), I think
it would run fine on 60Hz.  Not sure, but well worth a try.  Check around
the house, you may have 240V to your entrance panel, might have it to the
stove or clothes drier, do not just assume it's not there until you do a
good check.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:11:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Morstad <pjm at cavern.uark.edu>
Subject: Mr. Babcock's prohibition musings...

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Mr. P. Babcock scribed:

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
> Subject: Re: drunks
> 
> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
> 
> Dave Edwards feels inclined to distribute the following logic...
> 
> > Who cares what other people think! If they think that, then more power
> > to them, but I still don't give a rats arse. The beauty of an opinion is
> > that it means nothing, it is someone else's thought and is of little
> > consequence to your actions. If someone relates homebrewing with
> > drunkenness, is that really your problem? The answer is no, for all I am
> > concerned they can go.......
> 
> > So it is regardless whether or not I like being referred to as a drunk
> > just because I brew, I do it for me, not them.
> 
> In a word, bullshit. 

(de-lurk from perpetual lurk mode)

	Whoa, whoa, whoa!!  Easy Elvis!!  *police bullhorn*: "Put down the
axe, and step away from the nun...!!"  :P

> "Opinion" of this nature plays into politics.
> Politics plays into such things as blood tox levels and whether or not
> home brewing is allowed in any repective area.

	Mr. Babcock (who's posts I overwhelmingly find logical and
entertaining), you're making some mighty big leaps here...!  
	To wit: Are not blood alcohol levels determined by "scientific" 
analysis of objectively measured levels of impairment, than by a given
individuals/groups "opinion" of what constitutes "drunkeness"?  N'cest
pas? 
	That is, opinion (being inherently subjective) "plays into" or
even influences what constitutes a DUI/DWI threshold much less than a
demonstrable and quantifiable measurement of such a threshold.  Naturally,
the "opinion" of an Amish community on this matter is going to differ from
that of the citizens of Madison, Wisconsin, and to that extent, opinion
(both mass and individual) is a factor; but just that -a factor.  Not the
raison d'etre...  When it comes down to a matter of law, there simply has
to be something more compelling than "opinion" to drive legislation; hence
the scientific measure of ethanol impairment thresholds.
	Again, opinion DOES influence politics to varying extents; as in
the illogical and harmful concept of "dry counties" for instance (Hey!
Let's force people to drive out of the county to drink and/or buy liquor
when they have to drive _back_...).

> 
> Remember prohibition? That was based on opinion, too.

	Indeed, and what a success it was!!  Don't we all sort of look
back on that era -where no one really stopped drinking, where those who
lived outside the law profited immensely- with no small measure of "what
the hell were we thinking???"  And don't get (the HB digest) started on
how prohibition forever altered the American beer landscape!  ;-)  
	We may argue what prohibition was based on, but that it was a
monumental *failure* is incontrovertible.  Better for the law to be
informed by (i.e., don't try to ignore) a couple thousand years of
brewing, viticulture, and distilling than by the _opinions_ of a small
(but very vocal) temperance movement...  Agreed?

> And there are those
> working for its return - particularly here in the states. They're just
> being more cautious this time.

	Good luck to them!  I'm going to go out on a limb here and venture
that any re-attempt at making beverage alcohol illegal (here, or in any
Western democracy) would be all but an impossibility.  However, I see
where you're headed here:

> Sometimes simply making it inconvenient to
> do so through such means as the ever-lowering blood levels associated with
> DUI infractions. 

	Now were getting to the DUI/DWI question, which I believe is a
completely separate issue from any "thin end of the wedge" angle on a
possible return to prohibition.  
	I for one wouldn't mind at all seeing more draconian drinking &
driving laws here in the US; we've been killing each other on the roads
for far too long now.  Partly due to the whole American "cult of the
car" thing.
	I don't believe it correlates to an increase in per capita alcohol
consumption (maybe it does!), but if harsher DUI/DWI laws provide an
impetus to an improved public transportation system in the US, I'm all for
it...!!  And no, not so we can drink with impunity, but I think all
agree just a _few_ less cars on the road might not be such a bad thing. 
But I digress...

> Another problem in the US is the association of home
> brewing and moon shining. Opinions, again, but I recal a certain COPS
> episode where a home brewer was raided as a moonshiner. No, I think
> opinions can have a huge bearing on what you are ultimately allowed or not
> allowed to do. 

	Not really a "problem" I'd say, what with homebrew supply shops so
prevalent now...  Besides, anyone know how that case panned out in court?
That's what you DON'T see on "Cops"!  I'd wager a case of homebrew that a
public defender straight out of law school could convince a judge that the
local constabulary confiscated brewing, rather than distilling equipment.
The laws in a given state governing hombrewing are another matter.
	Let's not paint with a broad brush simply because an ill informed 
law enforcement officer sees a copper coil (wort chiller, wasn't it?) and
believes he's found a distillery!
 
> > And yeah some guy, that was a whinge you made.
> 
> Is whinge supposed to be whine? Again, I think not, but you're entitled to
> your opinion. Unlike the diametrically opposed opinions relative to the
> dangers of associating drunk with home brewer (in most reasonable
> communities), this particular opinion is universally ineffectual...
> 

	Eh?!?  

Pat: don't mean to pick on you (again, your posts I dearly enjoy), but I
couldn't let this one go by.  I think if we all re-read Scotty, Graham,
Phil, and Dave Edwards' comments again, they're really pretty cogent.  

In my opinion that is...

 -p
____________________________________________
paul j. morstad

academic, research, and client services
university of arkansas, fayetteville

"I totally swooned.  But I'm a Minnesotan 
and a Lutheran, so I swooned inwardly."

 -Dan Wilson of Semisonic (on meeting "The 
Artist" -formerly known as Prince, who, 
after fulfilling certain contractural 
obligations, is again known as Prince)



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:12:31 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Drunken Beer Louts, Oat beer update, Buckwheat and Rye

Rather than perching on the pole, as Graham has done ( and a nice job of
waffling it was, congrats, Graham!), I will come down firmly on Pat's side
of the fence.  Image means a lot in the world, and beer certainly has a
low-life image compared to wine and other beverages, due at least in part
to AB's advertising.   I have no idea of how we as homebrewers can change
that image, except by personal example.   And I am getting pretty tired of
folks who upon learning that I am a home^H^H^H^H craftbrewer want to see my
'still' (I suspect this happens because around here there are folks
distilling their own spirits, and 'beer' is what they make grain whiskey
from. )

The oat beer I mentioned some weeks back is finished, and it turned out to
be much like a CAP, except for being way too sweet, because of the way I
dried the malt, and being fermented with ale yeast.  Most of the cloudiness
dropped out after 2 weeks of lagering, though.  In keeping with the recent
trend here at the HBD I  have decided to call this style a 'Classic Retro
Awfully-sweet Pilsner-like malt beverage', or CRAP for short.  Oddly
enough, I had no trouble giving the entire batch away to several friends,
who said something like "Yeah, it's pretty sweet.  Got any more?"  Perhaps
they are drunken beer louts, or just some of the legions of the
taste-impaired. 

On a happier note, I have been drinking my first buckwheat ale ( 10% malted
buckwheat, 90% various barley malts).  Wow , what a wonderful flavor
buckwheat adds to beer!  I just bottled a 50% buckwheat ale which promises
to be even better.  And my first experiment with home-malted rye is in the
primary.  I must have malted and dried it correctly because the wort
converted iodine-negative in 10 minutes at 149F.  Holy cow!  Even my 6-row
base malt doesn't convert that fast.

On the brewing equipment front, I made a float switch for my HLT from a
humidity control (don't ask) because I keep leaving the switch operating
the water control solenoid on and flooding my garage floor from the
overflow.  Isn't technology wonderful?

Cheers,  Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:36:51 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Any Mathematicians out there?

I am investigating another aspect of my fluid flow model, but have
some calculus-type questions. I have not used calculus since college.
Any math majors out there? Drop me a line. Thanks!

John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
www.howtobrew.com
(sitemap located at www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html )





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:44:35 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: High priced Brewing Text recommendations

George asked for opinions on Malting and Brewing Science, Volumes 1
and 2, plus Handbook of Brewing by Hardwick.
I have not read Hardwick, but I have read M&BS. M&BS are good, but it
is a lot of money for how applicable they are to homebrewing.

In my opinion, if you want a book that summarizes M&BS and is
reasonably priced, get Brewing by Lewis and Young, Aspen Publishers,
1995. It's about $40. It covers the nitty gritty details without
laboring over industrial scale practices like M&BS does.

John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
www.howtobrew.com
(sitemap located at www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html )





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:03:42 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Brazing Copper (or Brass) to Stainless Steel

Del asked what filler metal to use for brazing copper to stainless
steel.
Here is an excerpt from Appendix B of my book. If you need more
details, just write me.

"Brazing is like soldering but it is done at higher temperatures and
is applicable to more metals. It can readily join stainless steel to
copper, brass, or itself, and is an alternative to welding. The
recommended filler rod for brewing service is AWS type BAg-5, and its
brazing temperature range is 1370-1550F (743-843C). While brazing
can provide a stronger joint, the high brazing temperatures can be bad
for stainless steel. At those temperatures, carbon in the stainless
steel can form chromium carbides which takes the chromium out of
solution, making the steel non-stainless near the joint. This area is
prone to rust and cracking after it is in service. The problem cannot
be fixed by re-passivation so it is best to avoid excessively heating
the parts during the braze and keep the total time at temperature to
four minutes or less. Propane torches are usually not adequate for
brazing. You will need to use MAPP gas or acetylene."


John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
www.howtobrew.com
(sitemap located at www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/SitemapA.html )





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:29:00 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Tankless Hot Water Heater

	On TLC last night on the Michael Holigan show they did a 
piece on the SETS system.  What it was is a three element system that 
heated the water as is went past and eliminated the need for a 
holding tank.  You could turn on your hot water for as long as you 
want and not run out of hot water.  (Can you see where I'm going with 
this yet?)  What I was thinking was instant sparge water/tank filler. 
This could eliminate the time taken to heat mash/sparge water and 
make brews quicker.  So I went to the web site and found the unit and 
it sells for about $400-$500!  (Not that I was going to buy one 
anyway)  So now I'm thinking about how to make one and what the 
parameters would be.  Any thoughts?


Brad


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:38:41 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Mash temps, times and such.

	Can anyone out there give a good explanation of mash temps 
and times and such?  I've read just about every book I can get my 
hands on and it seems that nobody does a good enough job for me. 
What I'm interested in is: What if you mash at 148 for 45 min then at 
155 for 45min, would it make a difference if you did a 148 for 120min 
and a 155 for 45?  Would the Beta A take care of everything and leave 
nothing for the Alpha A?  I thought (and I've been wrong once or 
twice) that the Beta A broke things down further than the Alpha A 
does, so are there so many starches to be broken down and depending 
on the times at what temps would give a fermentable/dextrin ratio? 
In turn wouldn't that mean that there would be a maximum amount of 
time you could mash and the rest after that would be a waste of time? 
Any Ideas?


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:45:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Mr. Babcock's prohibition musings...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

My! I seem to have stirred up a hot-bed of opinion on opinions! I've got
lurkers decloaking on my starboard bow...

Paul Morstad's sharp outline defines itself suddenly where there was
nothing but space before and he intones...

> > "Opinion" of this nature plays into politics.
> > Politics plays into such things as blood tox levels and whether or not
> > home brewing is allowed in any repective area.
> 
> 	Mr. Babcock (who's posts I overwhelmingly find logical and
> entertaining), you're making some mighty big leaps here...!  

Um, thanks - I think...

> 	To wit: Are not blood alcohol levels determined by "scientific" 
> analysis of objectively measured levels of impairment, than by a given
> individuals/groups "opinion" of what constitutes "drunkeness"?  N'cest
> pas? 

OK. So play along with me here. DUI level is set to some number through
testing.  Scientifically chosen, right? Through the "ounce of liquor,
drive the slolem track" test, or various others, right? So, then, with all
this good scientific testing and results reporting, just what is
continuously driving communities to lower the limit? Why isn't the limit
the same universally? Betcha a buck it's the OPINION that "Gee! That must
not have been low enough because drunk driving incidents did not
decline..." Or is it all just bad science? (Or is it that no matter how
low you make the number, the ones causing the incidents will still drink
and drive? Got me stumped here.) Even if it is a regional issue (perhaps
the people in Arkansas are more easily tossed into a stupor or those in
Michigan are fatter from all that cold weather and can tolerate higher
levels), there should be some rhyme or reason to the way the numbers fall
out - but there isn't. The selection of the DUI level seems pretty
arbitrary when you look across the board. Ansd wait until the laws become
so draconian that you have to travel with stinking breath rather than risk
blowing Listerine fumes into that meter. Or how a bout a level in which
the banana, source of potassium and naturally occuring alcohol pushes your
blood over that precarious edge. Hmmm....

> 	That is, opinion (being inherently subjective) "plays into" or
> even influences what constitutes a DUI/DWI threshold much less than a
> demonstrable and quantifiable measurement of such a threshold.  Naturally,
> the "opinion" of an Amish community on this matter is going to differ from
> that of the citizens of Madison, Wisconsin, and to that extent, opinion
> (both mass and individual) is a factor; but just that -a factor.  Not the
> raison d'etre...  When it comes down to a matter of law, there simply has
> to be something more compelling than "opinion" to drive legislation; hence
> the scientific measure of ethanol impairment thresholds.
> 	Again, opinion DOES influence politics to varying extents; as in
> the illogical and harmful concept of "dry counties" for instance (Hey!
> Let's force people to drive out of the county to drink and/or buy liquor
> when they have to drive _back_...).

You had a leap, now we have a stretch :-) I don't believe I ever once said
that the opinion was raison d'etre. Mais non! Absolulement mairde du
vache! (My apologies to true francophones...). I said that the opinion is
damaging and many things come about based on opinion. I wonder what the
more compelling thing than "opinion", religious or otherwise, that make it
illegal in some states to engage in sex in positions other than
missionary? What is the compelling reason that barbers should not operate
their shops on Sundays? Or that alcohol cannot be sold between the hours
of 2 am and noon on Sunday? THere are many examples of laws enacted
because of nothing more compelling that popular opinion - or even the
opinion of just one. 

> > Remember prohibition? That was based on opinion, too.
> 
> 	Indeed, and what a success it was!!  Don't we all sort of look
> back on that era -where no one really stopped drinking, where those who
> lived outside the law profited immensely- with no small measure of "what
> the hell were we thinking???"  And don't get (the HB digest) started on
> how prohibition forever altered the American beer landscape!  ;-)  
> 	We may argue what prohibition was based on, but that it was a
> monumental *failure* is incontrovertible.  Better for the law to be
> informed by (i.e., don't try to ignore) a couple thousand years of
> brewing, viticulture, and distilling than by the _opinions_ of a small
> (but very vocal) temperance movement...  Agreed?

But does the failure of prohibition invalidate the point that it was
enacted on little more than a groundswell of popular opinion from vocal
special interest groups? Others had the opinion that they wouldn't be
affected (beer industry, for example), so sat quietly by until it was too
late. Opinion, in the hands of the untrained, is a very dangerous
thing. And I'm aware of no training mandated for its use.

Yes. It's be great if politicians could bring themselves to ignore popular
OPINION. (Doh ! There it is again!) Unfortunately, we don't have pointy
ears and eybrows and wander the surface of the planet Vulcan. Without
popular opinion and special interest groups, there's just not a whole lot
a politician can do to gain votes... Sort of a catch 22.

> > And there are those
> > working for its return - particularly here in the states. They're just
> > being more cautious this time.
> 
> 	Good luck to them!  I'm going to go out on a limb here and venture
> that any re-attempt at making beverage alcohol illegal (here, or in any
> Western democracy) would be all but an impossibility.  However, I see
> where you're headed here:

Hmmm. How about suing the alcohol industry. Worked for tobacco. They've
started on the gun makers. There are many ways in which one can get to
their ends. Prohibition was an attempt to do it through the law. Other
methods exist through USING the law.  

> > Sometimes simply making it inconvenient to
> > do so through such means as the ever-lowering blood levels associated with
> > DUI infractions. 
> 
> 	Now were getting to the DUI/DWI question, which I believe is a
> completely separate issue from any "thin end of the wedge" angle on a
> possible return to prohibition.  

It is/was intended as a means to verify, objectively, intoxication. In
it's ever-dwindling state, it is being manipulated to the extent that
those enjoying the surroundings of their favorite saloon had better find a
room upstairs. It's original intent has been mooted by the new puitrpose -
to use the law to gain one's own end.

> 	I for one wouldn't mind at all seeing more draconian drinking &
> driving laws here in the US; we've been killing each other on the roads
> for far too long now.  Partly due to the whole American "cult of the
> car" thing.
> 	I don't believe it correlates to an increase in per capita alcohol
> consumption (maybe it does!), but if harsher DUI/DWI laws provide an
> impetus to an improved public transportation system in the US, I'm all for
> it...!!  And no, not so we can drink with impunity, but I think all
> agree just a _few_ less cars on the road might not be such a bad thing. 
> But I digress...

See the discussion above regarding Listerine and bananas. Be careful what
you wish for.

> 
> > Another problem in the US is the association of home
> > brewing and moon shining. Opinions, again, but I recal a certain COPS
> > episode where a home brewer was raided as a moonshiner. No, I think
> > opinions can have a huge bearing on what you are ultimately allowed or not
> > allowed to do. 
> 
> 	Not really a "problem" I'd say, what with homebrew supply shops so
> prevalent now...  Besides, anyone know how that case panned out in court?
> That's what you DON'T see on "Cops"!  I'd wager a case of homebrew that a

Yes. Millions didn't see that the gentleman was a homebrewer and not a
moonshiner. Millions associate the images of his confiscated chiller with
moonshining. Ya know? I have one of those chillers in MY garage. Makes one
take pause to think, I would hope. The prevalence of homebrewing shops
notwithstanding.

> The laws in a given state governing hombrewing are another matter.
> 	Let's not paint with a broad brush simply because an ill informed 
> law enforcement officer sees a copper coil (wort chiller, wasn't it?) and
> believes he's found a distillery!

And let's not also forget that that incident was broadcast on the FOX
network under a rather popular television show called COPS; thereby
spreading the ill-informed enforcement officer's actions to millions with
no later retraction. And what of the reruns? We learn through
reinforcement. Those millions of viewers included other enforcement
officers to be sure. And were they so public minded to research the
incident, or did they simply file the information away in their mind later
to spring up in YOUR garage?

> > > And yeah some guy, that was a whinge you made.
> > 
> > Is whinge supposed to be whine? Again, I think not, but you're entitled to
> > your opinion. Unlike the diametrically opposed opinions relative to the
> > dangers of associating drunk with home brewer (in most reasonable
> > communities), this particular opinion is universally ineffectual...
> > 
> 
> 	Eh?!?  
> 
> Pat: don't mean to pick on you (again, your posts I dearly enjoy), but I
> couldn't let this one go by.  I think if we all re-read Scotty, Graham,
> Phil, and Dave Edwards' comments again, they're really pretty cogent.  

Eh?!? Back atcha. What I was saying here is that the opinion that I am
simply "whinging" is ineffectual. Dave's comments are cogent and distilled
to: "I drink as much as I want and care not what others call me". Bully
for Dave. On an individual level, this is fine. I don't think it is as a
class, though. 

Graham's comments were particularly cogent (and no worries, mate: no one
has ever been thrown off the Digest for whatever reason. Hell! I'd
probably have been the first, if we had such policy...) and does point
out that in different cultures words have different meaning (though, I
must point out that the letter to which I reacted was sent into the US,
assumedly using the AHA club list to target brew clubs. The field of
Global Marketing insists you become aware of the culture in your targetted
markplace in order to survive. When in Rome...). 

And Phil is.... well, Phil :-) Phil does point out that the term drunk is
loosely defined at best and derogatory in general - else he wouldn't
complain about being oft mistaken for one.

So what'd I miss?


-
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




Return to table of contents



Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:49:31 EDT
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: water labs

My local water utility only tests for what they are required to under law.  
The water engineer could only give me numbers for pH, Hardness and 
Alkalinity.  I would like to know how my water rates for the "significant 7" 
parameters that AJ has talked about.  Does anyone know of a lab that I can 
send a water sample to?  How much would a test cost?  Is there perhaps a 
brewer with access to lab equipment that would be willing and able to do it?

Bill Wright
Juneau, Alaska
www.gourmetalaska.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:31:09 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: 220V Freezer questions and malo

John,

Your 220V freezer won't like 110V at all.  From dead cold (or should I say
warm) it may start, but the moment the gas pressure builds up to provide
cooling the compressor will stall.  For my various sins I worked for Email
Woodville, an airconditioner and refrigerator producer, and one of the tests
was a low voltage start, once warm.  Below about 190V forget it.  

Don't get too concerned about the frequency if you can lay your hands on a
tranny, though your electricity bills may take off (but who cares about the
Greenhouse Effect?).  Motor windings are inductive, so draw lower current at
higher frequency.  We get a bit nervous over here, running 60Hz things on
50Hz on the odd occasion.  May be cheaper to get a fridgy to slap a new
compressor in the old fridge.

Wendell,

In this lovely land downunda we get to make real red (and white) wine! I'm
drinking Cab Sauv 2000 already, yum. Malo is a bit hit and miss.  Three ways
to go with the real thing - add a malo culture and make sure it happens, keg
it for ages to allow it to happen when it feels like it, or test (refer
Aussie text Rankine).  Otherwise your wine may undergo a malo in the bottle
 - and you better have tied down your corks and used strong bottles!  I did a
Pommy kit red wine once that blew the corks.

Go with the malo culture if you have it.  Forget about thinking you are
doing a real red wine, you're not plunging the cap (of skins) twice daily
and trading high temp colour extraction for low temp aroma retention, or
tannin for colour.

High surface area oak shavings are added at primary because the yeast kills
any bugs you will introduce.  The shavings you have may or may not be
toasted.  Oak must be the right variety and properly toasted to give the
real vanilla sensations.  Umm, I think American oak is preferred for Cab
Sauv so you're probably in the right place.  Oak barrels, chips or boards
are used at the later phase you've mentioned, not shavings.

Your concentrate white wine probably had all the protein and pectin treated
to prevent haze, so probably needed little racking.  Bentonite in your can
red will pull out any solids faster, and will do no harm.  Reds are a little
more complex, but more robust.

Enjoy and dream you're using real McLaren Vale or Barossa Valley grapes like
I do!

Regards,

Lyndon Z
Adelaide, Downunda, 240V 50Hz, superb wine, shame not enough know how to
make great beer out of our great barley territory

Lyndon Zimmermann
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



Return to table of contents

---