---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Outtage... (Some Guy)
  re: Kit Beers (Bill Wible)
  re: I'm no expurt...but.. (Bill Wible)
  Steve Lacey And His "Pts per Pound" ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Siphoning ("Randy Pressley")
  Brussels (Keith Busby)
  FWH/mash hopping ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  First Wort Hopping is for Sisses eh? (Chad Petersen)
  Bad homebrews ruining the reputation (John Adsit)
  aerating wort vs. beer ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Whirlpools, aeration & freezing yeast ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Charlie P's books ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Cost of beer (Ken Miller)
  re: Why aerate? (Lou.Heavner)
  mash hopping clarification (Marc Sedam)
  Kit beers and Mashing ("Dave Edwards")
  one more thing (Marc Sedam)
  lucky charms and decoction (Aaron Perry)
  29mm crown caps found (Ed Easgall)
  29mm crown caps correction (Ed Easgall)
  WATER SOFTNER WOES (Ballsacius)
  24 Hours of Belgian Special Beer (Fred Waltman)
  On Perceptions and Other Such Stuff (Bob Hall)
  Lemon (Crossno)
  Papazian (George Edwards)
  Thanks a Bunch! (Smith Asylum)
  RE: Boulder (Brian Rezac)
  St Pats Bashing... ("dr smith")
  chloramines, Charlie P, (Dave Burley)
  FWH ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: "Vegemite" (Yuck!) ("Warren White")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:07:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Outtage...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Our apologies for the server outtage Sunday night and Monday morning.
Routine maintenance wasn't so routine, and O&E's intervention was required
to bring the server back online. Since the HBD is not their source of
profits, we must make do with what time they can give us and when. I, for
one, appreciate their efforts.

On another note, Greg Day, our benefactor at O&E for so long, has moved to
another position with another newspaper. I wish him the best of luck. And
I applaud O&E for upholding the agreements he had made with the HBD and
other hobbiest' servers hosted on their network. Bravo!

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:18:06 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: re: Kit Beers

>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:06:38 +0800
>From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
>Subject: Kit beers

<snip>

>And as much as I hate to say it the beer these kits make is not bad. To the
>extent that I preferred my first kit beer to some of the mid priced
>commercial beers.

>I have herd of only one person that had a disaster home brewing and didn't
>try it again and they had such a bad case of bottle bombs I don't think they
>even tasted it (I suspect something as simple as premature bottling).

>Kit beers are far from perfect but they aren't all that bad.

>Edward

Edward, I assume you're talking about the pre-packaged, pre-hopped kits
that are supposed to make a particular style of beer, such as an old ale
kit or an English Bitter kit.  I did several of these, and I'd say 
all were pretty
bad.

This is funny to me that this is posted just now.  I was just going through
notes from my old batches yesterday, and I ran across one note that made
me laugh.  It said in big letters, under "What I would do differently 
next time",
"Stop F***ing around with kits."

The problems I have had with these kits have been that they are pre-hopped,
and none of them give you any idea how much hop they contain.  I always
wanted to at least add flavor and aroma hops to the kit , and it usually ended
up being too much.

There was another thread recently about how much easier it is to build up
your own 'kits' using plain, unhopped, DME, LME, (or a combination) and
your own hops.  This gives you total control.  When I want to turn around
a quick extract beer for some party or something, this is what I do.  But I
became an all grain brewer around my 5th or 6th batch, and the vast
majority of my beers are done all grain.  I still do an occasional extract,
usually for convenience, but they are few and far between.

So why mess with kits that somebody else made without having all the
information, when you can make your own and have it be exactly what you
want?

Cheers!
Bill


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:33:28 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: re: I'm no expurt...but..

>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:45:34 -0400
>From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
>Subject: I'm no expurt...but..ppp/g

<snip>

>disclaimer: I'm no expurt, but this method allows me to nail my target gravity
>every time! The only reason I have to know this is 'cause Promash won't make a
>MAC version!! They say use the virtual PC program, but my mac is too old!! Oh
>well, pen and paper for now!

Time to move up to the G4, Aaron!  My power mac runs Windows 3.1, Windows 95,
and, of course, the MacOS.  I can run BrewWizard and  ProMash, even though
neither is a mac program.  There is one mac brewing program called BrewMeister,
but I don't like it.  It does not allow you to customize setting, and 
it always calcualted
my gravity wrong.

Actually, running Widows on a Mac is kind of like putting hubcaps on 
a jeep, though.
But I'll do it until these programs do come out for the mac - which 
will probably be when
they're playing ice hockey on the river Styx.

Bill


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:25:20 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Steve Lacey And His "Pts per Pound"

Steve Lacey, taking his mind off the Olympics for a minute whilst refusing
to admit he was at the last gay Mardi Gras (I'm sure I saw you there Steve,
in the float right behind mine!), has at least explained his question.

One poor soul emailed me to explain that "pts" meant pints and went on to
tell me how many ounces there were in a pound. Something I learnt forty
years ago, long before Australia went metric. But I am sure his advise was
well intended.

To answer Steve's query, I use points per kilo per litre, a standard I
learnt from Graham Wheeler's book "Home Brewing". Graham's book offers some
good info on such matters including IBU calculations and as a result of his
information, I have never felt remotely inclined to bother with Promash.
Some of you might be interested to know, Graham some years back actually
posted here in the HBD but found the aggressive reception from some quite
upsetting. He told me this personally. So we lost a good information source
thanks to some of the "know it all's" that like to show off their often
useless scientific calibre here in the HBD.

Points per kilo per litre, or degrees per kilo per litre as expressed in
mash efficiency are measured against laboratory results (deemed as 100%
efficient).

For example, Graham's book gives lager malt a maximum extraction of 296.
This means, under laboratory conditions one kilo of malt mashed in one litre
of water will achieve a SG of 1296 degrees.
So what?
Well this figure can be used to figure out your own mashing efficiency.
Say you have produced 22 litres of wort with a SG of 1050 using 4.6 kg of
malt (this is about where my brewing lies).
You can say good bye to the 1000 part of your gravity reading as it is a
constant. So we are dealing with what is left, which is 50 points.
Multiplied by 22 reveals the gravity of one litre of your wort.
Divided by the kilos of grain used reveals your "points per kilo per litre"
In this example, 50 times 22 equals 1100.
Divided by 4.6 equals 239.

239 divided by 296 (maximum possible) times 100 equals your mash efficiency.

It's really very straight forward.
Graham's book gives potential or 100% mash points for a whole range of
fermentables, including rice, which of course interests me.

Not that I bother much with the calculations any more, like Doc Pivo, these
days I hardly even weigh the grain I use.
Been there, done that, now I do it purely from experience and feel. I
usually fall within two points of my expected gravity, because I know my
mash efficiency, at least for the grains I mostly use.

As a result of this discussion, Dave Lamotte asks "why are aircraft not
built like flight recorders, or black boxes as they are known (God knows the
relevance of this to the discussion!!)
I guess Dave, if the aircraft was built like the black box, it would be so
heavy it would never get airborne.
What makes me laugh is when passengers come up the front and ask "how do we
know you really care about our safety"?
Simple boof head! We're in this aircraft too!!
What's more, being at the pointy end, what ever we are going to hit usually
gets us first.
I have a healthy sense of self preservation.
Despite disliking helmets!

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:16:57 -0400
From: "Randy Pressley" <RANDYP at ci.winston-salem.nc.us>
Subject:  Siphoning

I've been reading some posts on whether or not to 
siphon with the mouth.  I'll bet the folks who suck
on that siphon tube don't have fish tanks.  I always
fill the tube with at least 50% water then put my
thumb on one end to keep the water from coming out
either end and then stick the other end in the carboy.
Works like a champ.  By the way if you buy your 
tubing in a roll you've noticed that it's hard to keep
straight because its been rolled up so long.  I kill
two birds with one stone.  I put a funnel in one end
of the tube and pour boiling water through the tube.
This cleans it and straightens it at the same time.



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:53:02 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Brussels

While in Brussels, I also recommend a visit to Beermania, 170 Chaussee de
Wavre (Wavresesteenweg). It is a real trove of both beer and glasses. The
owner is friendly and knowledgable. Cheeck out his website at
http://www.beermania.be.

I further endorse the recommendation of 't Spinnekopje.

Keith Busby


Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:20:51 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: FWH/mash hopping


A point of clarification: Comparing FWH and Mash Hopping to an equivalent
weight for start-of-boil addition:

FWH will provide 10% MORE bitterness, but smoother.
Mash Hopping (with pellets) will provide 90% LESS bitterness, and an aroma
somewhat akin to dry hopping.

Details at www.paddockwood.com/guide_hop_usage.html#FLAVOUR

Use FWH to replace late additions, and mash hopping instead of dry hopping.

As always, YMMV... these are our sensory evaluations, not lab analysis...
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:19:19 -0700
From: Chad Petersen <Chad.Petersen at wwu.edu>
Subject: First Wort Hopping is for Sisses eh?

Sedam!
You have gone too far!  FWH is the way it was meant to be.  Calling
proponents of FWH sissies is inappropriate as well as downright mean.  I
expect a retraction immediately if not sooner.

Father Chad
Defrocked Cleric
Brewing Saveant
Geek


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:22:47 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Bad homebrews ruining the reputation

Several posts have talked about the fact that people have tasted some
bad home brews made from kits and then written off all homebrewing
because it produces bad beers.

While this is no doubt true, the phenomenon is not restricted to kit
brewers.  I know an all grain brewer who always makes brews in the 10%
ABV area, with nowhere near enough hops to balance, and who can't
recognize an infected batch if it were crawling out of the bottle.  He
passes those around with great pride, turning off one potential brewer
after another.

But there is even another factor, and it relates to a point Doc Pivo
made during the great drunkenness debate.  About a year and a half ago,
I attended a "pot luck" homebrew party that was set up for the express
purpose of promoting home brewing.  Since I am not an active member of
any clubs, I attended not knowing many of the people there.  I brought a
Pilsner and an IPA.  I have no doubt that, with one possible exception,
my beers (even the IPA) were the least alcoholic in the place.  (The
exception was an India Black Ale that, according to the recipe its
creator published in Zymurgy, should have been less alcoholic than my
IPA.  According to my informal observations, the only other contender as
a "low alcohol brew" was a beer identified by its creator as a MILD with
about 6.0% ABV.

The other factor was hopping.  Now, I tend to like beers a little
hoppy.  But, man! the IPA's there in abundance had hop characteristics
that stunned me.

Most of all, what stood out was the attitude of most of the people in
the group.  Everyone seemed to want to impress others by 1) how much
alcohol they had created and 2) how many IBU's they had achieved.  When
they poured you a taste, they seemed eager to see your head snap back.

My wife, who started me in home brewing by buying me my first kit, hated
nearly every beer there, and she said she would never have bought me
that gift had she attended this party first.

Perhaps many of those people who tasted a home brew once and didn't like
it had not tasted a kit beer; perhaps they have tasted one of those
excessive brews Doc Pive so accurately described.  BTW, this was not
just a rogue group; I assure you the names of the creators of the
specific beers I mentioned will be familiar to many of the readers of
HBD.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:31:47 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: aerating wort vs. beer


Lee Smith asks about aeration:

Here are some rules of thumb regarding wort/beer aeration.

1. It's undesirable to aerate hot wort, it oxidizes and develop off
flavours. This is often referred to as HSA (Hot Side Aeration).
2. It's desirable to aerate cool (below 74F) wort as much as possible BEFORE
fermentation. You can do this by bubbling in air, or oxygen, or by dropping
the cool wort into your fermentor, or by drilling a small hole, or series of
small holes around the edge of a rigid piece of tubing at the end of your
siphon. The cool wort will suck air into it as it drops into the fermentor.
Or you could shake the fermentor very well for 5 minutes before pitching the
yeast.
3. It's undesirable to aerate wort that has begun fermentation- it doesn't
help the yeast, and won't do good things for your beer.
4. It's undesirable to aerate finished beer, it oxidizes and develop off
flavours.
5. Someone will disagree with all of the above.

Hope this helps...

Stephen
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:30:01 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Whirlpools, aeration & freezing yeast

Whirlpool hot wort / don't whirlpool hot wort?

My personal opinion is that it is a non-issue for HSA.  I've done both &
haven't noticed any degradation of expected flavors.  As discussed earlier,
A-B pumps air into their hot wort with no apparent ill-effects since the
temperature is believed to be to high for oxidation to occur.  And I doubt
anyone would tell you that aeration of cool wort is a bad thing.

I can, however, see one method being more practical than another depending
on the chilling method.  For counterflow chillers, there is no choice but to
whirlpool the hot wort.  You could do it again on the cooled wort as well to
remove cold break if you employ a settling tank.  More equipment to clean.
Immersion chilling has the advantage of being able to rack off the hot break
as well as most of the cold break.  Whirlpooling hot wort with an immersion
chiller would be counterproductive as the hot break would be separated, but
not the cold break.

==============

Lee Smith asked if there is a hard and fast rule applying to aeration.
Sure.

1. Air in cooled unfermented wort is good.
2. Air in hot wort or finished beer is bad.

The much-debated exceptions:
1a. Additional aeration can be introduced for the first 24 hours of
fermenting with no adverse effects on flavor.  Haven't tried this yet.  Best
to leave well-enough alone.

2a. Aeration of hot wort is to be avoided within the following temperature
range 1xx - 1yy deg. F where xx usually winds up being some number between
20 and 40 and yy can be some number between 60 and 80.  Who knows?  Show me
the data.  But be safe - avoid undue splashing and agitation between 100 F
and 200 F, in general.

=================

Jesse is thinking about storing his yeast in sterile water or buffer should
he ever lose access to a -80 C freezer.  I miss the lab!  So many neat
things I can't afford to have at home!  <sob> I would suggest buffer.  I've
tried sterile water with mixed results.  It may be the osmotic shock that
does it.  If you know of a good one, I'd love to try it.  I was thinking of
a phosphate buffer since it's more natural to beer and not too exotic for
the layman to make.


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"Even God is an Evolutionist." - me


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:39:10 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Charlie P's books

In reference to using Charlie P's books as a reference -

Jay Spies wrote:
Once again, Charlie's stellar advice falls prey to common sense.

and Steve Alexander adds:
Uhhh - read Papazian once, cut an inch off one of your kitchen table legs
and place the book there to prevent future reference.

Charlie catches a lot of flack about the outdated info in his books,  rightly
or wrongly. But don't destroy your furniture over them. I've found Charlie's
books to be very useful out in my brewery - they are just the perfect
thickness to put under your carboy to get the right tilt when siphoning.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:43:21 -0400
From: Ken Miller <kgmiller at vignette.com>
Subject: Cost of beer

In reading about the state of homebrewing in Australia and from what little
I know of Canadian homebrewing, I'm starting to think there is a large
difference in the price of beer between the US and other parts of the world.
Here in northeastern US, I can get a case (24-12oz cans) of macro swill
(Bud, Busch, Coors) for about $10-12(US).  Something better would be Sam
Adams/Harpoon in the $20/case range.  My opinion is that for the "kit and
kilo" brewer would be hard pressed to make beer for much less than 10$/case.
Sure, he'd save a few bucks, but not enough for the trouble.  I think this
explains why there are no homebrew supplies in supermarkets and all of the
homebrews I've met are doing it for fun and to try to make really good beer.


Could a few brewers from outside the US give us an idea of what a case of
Macro and Micro beer costs locally?  This could give us an idea of the
relative motivations of homebrewing in other countries.  

Whenever I am asked if I save money by homebrewing, my answer is that there
no reasonable way to make a typical american lager for less than I could buy
it, but I do save a bit when I make my SNPA clone.  (That stuff goes for
close to $30/case.)  This then gives me a chance to explain that homebrewing
is a hobby, and not a way to save a few bucks.  This is my way to give the
impression of homebrewers as hobbyist who love the taste of great beer and
not drunks looking for a cheap buzz.

Ken


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:21:34 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: Why aerate?

     Here is my take on it.  Oxygen and oxidizers are generally bad for
     beer flavor and stability.  They react with both wort and beer
     constituents to create oxidation products which yield some of the
     undesirable flavors and aromas we all strive to avoid and a few we may
     actually want in certain styles.  However, yeast, in addition to
     consuming the sugars in wort and producing alcohol and CO2, also act
     as reducing agents and O2 scavengers.  In fact yeast use O2 to grow
     and reproduce.  Now the neat thing is that yeast make a lot more than
     just EtOH and CO2.  They also produce a lot of flavor active
     compounds.  The exact compounds and quantities are dependant on the
     wort composition, the yeast strain, and how the yeast are treated.
     They make different by-products in different proportions when they are
     growing/reproducing vs just fermenting and when they are kept warm vs
     cool and whether they are stressed or pampered and etc.

     Soooooooo...... generally you should try to exclude oxygen from wort
     or beer.  The exception is at the beginning of fermentation.  Here you
     want some yeast growth to occur to ensure adequate numbers and
     vitality of yeast and to produce some of those flavors that occur
     mostly during yeast growth.  It is said to be safe and beneficial to
     aerate/oxygenate anytime during the first 18 hours of fermentation.
     More or less oxygenation during this time will affect the yeast and
     the flavors they produce, but should not result in badly "oxidized"
     beer.  Experiment to see what works best for you.  The worst time to
     get oxygen in your beer is after the yeast have mostly finished and
     are "pooped" out or worse, filtered out.  Oxygenation at this time
     will have the most deleterious impact on beer flavor and stability.
     If you drink your beer quickly (within 2-3 months) you may not
     experience this too much, as it doesn't develop instantaneously.  It
     is also said to be bad to oxygenate your wort while it is hot.  This
     is the so called HSA and its affects are generally observable after a
     longer time than post fermentation aeration.  After the wort is cool,
     there is less problem, assuming pitching occurs fairly quickly.

     The thing that will have a bigger and more short term impact on your
     beer is contamination with bacteria or wild yeast.  One of the risks
     of aeration/oxygenation is that wort/beer spoilers could ride along
     with the air.  One of the risks of not aerating is that your yeast
     won't be as vital or prolific and may lose the battle to contaminants
     which are difficult to avoid in most homebreweries.  Be careful with
     how to aerate the wort.

     In conclusion, treat your yeast better than you treat your mother,
     adopt the philosophy that cleanliness (and sanitation) is next to
     Godliness, aerate/oxygenate your wort at pitching time but try to
     avoid it anytime else, and RDWHAHB!

     Regards,

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:52:03 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash hopping clarification

Quite a few people have asked me to clarify how I mash hop.
This is best served by an example:

NORMAL Hop Schedule
1oz N. Brewer (60 mins--bittering)
0.5oz Saaz (15 mins--flavor)
0.5oz Saaz (1 min--aroma)

MASH HOP Schedule
1.25oz Saaz in the mash at dough-in
1oz N. Brewer (60 mins--bittering)

That's it.

I've also had a couple of questions regarding the other
effects I've seen with mash hopping on my beer.  First, I
have very soft water (Plzen-type).  I think the mash hopping
helps to lower the pH of the mash closer to pH 5.3.  It's
only an assumption with no verification at all.  Anyone
who's going to try it and has a pH meter--I'd love to see
the data.  I think the increased efficiency comes directly
from this event, which also explains why some people don't
see improved efficiency when mash hopping.  I'd guess that
highly carbonate water would meet that criterion, but there
may be others.

I've used leaf and pellet hops in the mash with both
producing acceptable results.  There is some evidence in
DeClerck to suggest that the higher pH of the mash helps to
stabilize some hop aroma compounds.  But I'm not a
designated HBD librarian so I don't have the reference.

Let's start those brains churning.

Hoppily mashing in Chapel Hill, NC (too lazy to convert to
Rennerian coordinates),
Marc

- --
Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
http://www.research.unc.edu/otd




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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:38:19 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Kit beers and Mashing

Edward Doernberg wrote:

| Kit beers are far from perfect but they aren't all that bad.

Yes that is true, I too started out with kits, and at the time was quite
pleased with the resultant beer. I always experimented a lot, bastardizing
them with whatever I could, and not even remotely following the
manufacturer's instructions. But, as drinkable as they may be, they don't
put a shine on mash beer. All of the extract brewers out there who have
never tasted a home-mashed beer are probably just saying 'yeah, no wucka's
mate', but the difference really is astounding. Moving to mash is the best
thing that could ever happen to your beer.

Cheers,
Dave.




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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:57:55 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: one more thing

I also wanted to thank the folks at Paddock Wood for
chatting with me about mash hopping in the past.  I was
messing with this on my own for a while and later saw that
they had been doing the same thing.  Now THAT'S science...or
art...I dunno...I might be drunk.  Not "a" drunk, but just
drunk...oh never mind.

Thanks Paddock Wood!

The Mad Mash Hopper,
Marc

P.S.  FWH is still for sissies!



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:24:09 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: lucky charms and decoction

Hi all,

marc writes:

> On Tuesday I brewed up a big IPA with four ounces of E.Kent Goldings 
> in the mash. Ran smooth as silk and tastes magically delicious.......
>

Did you add green clovers, blue diamonds and purple horseshoes to the mash
too? :-)

decoction:
Hey, why hasn't anyone mentioned that decocting a mash (flavor and extraction
debates aside) reduces dreaded HSA (so I've read). That's definitely a plus. 

AP


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:34:27 -0400
From: Ed Easgall <ejb11 at psu.edu>
Subject: 29mm crown caps found

Hi All, 
I've managed to finally track down some 29mm crown caps at Home Sweet
Homebrew in Philadelphia.  homesweet at voicenet.com  ph:(215)569-9469 if you
need any. 100/bag  at  $4.00....and they ship.
cheers

ed basgall
SCUM
State College Underground Maltsters





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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:03:35 -0400
From: Ed Easgall <ejb11 at psu.edu>
Subject: 29mm crown caps correction

Oops,
That email address is homsweet at voicenet.com for 29mm crown caps.

cheers
ed basgall 
SCUM



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:10:53 EDT
From: Ballsacius at aol.com
Subject: WATER SOFTNER WOES

I have just moved and have finally rearranged and put the Madman Brewery back 
together. I was all set to fire up the old brew kettle, when it hit me...I 
now have a water softner! I am under the assumption that this is a bad thing 
for brewing. I do not want to make any batches of madman sea salt ale if you 
catch my drift. What can I do? Should I cut into the line before it gets to 
the softner and take water from there? Can I put a "filter" on the line to 
the brewing sink and be okay? I do not want to get into buying water, and 
with all-grain, this is out of the question. Any help or suggestions would be 
appreciated. Private E-mail okay.

Bob Fesmire
Madman Brewery
Recently relocated to: Downingtown, PA
Ballsacius at aol.com


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:20:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: 24 Hours of Belgian Special Beer


We are starting to shape up our annual trip to Antwerpen for the 24 Hours 
of Belgian Special Beer (Oct 14, 15). If anybody in hbd-land is also
going (or is interested in going) drop me a line and maybe we can arrange
to meet up.

An added bonus is that the Tuesday after the 24 Hours is one of the two 
days a year that zum Uerige in Duesseldorf serves their sticke bier.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply (Los Angeles area)
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com
www.brewsupply.com   *and*   www.LABeer.com
www.StickeWarriors.com for info on a great beer trip



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:09:14 -0700
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: On Perceptions and Other Such Stuff

Not to open old wounds, but ....

Was in the basement last Sat. morning corking a chardonney (sorry, but I
did cap a wheat beer on Sunday), and had the radio on listing to NPR's
"What Do You Know" with host Michael Feldman (a comedy/variety program
with lots of audience and telephone participation). The show was being
broadcast from Madison, Wisconsin, and one of his audience particpants
was Jeannie (I've really forgotten the name) who was in Madison
attending the homebrew festival. After serious grilling about why she'd
attend a homebrew fest (she liked IPAs ...."so what's it like after 10
IPAs") the show went on. At one point, when the question returned to
Jeannie, Feldman referred to her as "the drunk from Human Resources." I
know it's comedy and take it as such, but I thought it was especially
pointed given the track of hbd discussions lately. His reaction may not
have been so different from that of the general public.

When folks find out that I'm a home brewer, the first two questions are
usually 1) how strong can you make it?, and 2) how much does it cost per
bottle? The connotation is that I'm in it for strong, cheap booze. I
think in my area of the country (NW Ohio), many of the German farmers
once made their own due to cost and prohibition. What they made was
strong and cheap, and probably tasted that way. When I first tried my
hand at brewing in the early 70's, I tried to pick the brains of all the
old Dutchmen .... there wasn't much available in the way of ingredients
or directions back then. Actually, I think it was technically illegal to
homebrew at that time. But armed with a can of Blue Ribbon hopped malt,
a bag of cane sugar, Red Star bread yeast, and an open crock, I made
beer that I assume was a clone of what went round in the 30's. It wasn't
good, but it was cheap and I drank it.

Looking back, I think we're still living with the assumptions generated
from prohibition .... that homebrew is cheap, strong, ill-tasting stuff.
And if someone is so desperate to concoct such a brew, he or she must
have a problem. We're slowly breaking out of that stereotype, but we're
not there yet.

Bob



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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:44:44 -0500
From: Crossno <Crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: Lemon

Hoping for a Saturday post.

The HBD search engine is under renovation so...what is a good lemon
"aid" recipe.  I'm working on the mill so just need a lemon aid.  

TTFN,
Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN
- -- 
There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take
the consequences.  P.J. O'Rourke


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: George Edwards <netidjit at witty.com>
Subject: Papazian

Papazian's books aren't all that bad. There's a bunch of recipes that are
actually pretty good - if you skip the gypsum. And not all of the advice is
as assinine as his pour-it-through-a-funnel method of wort cooling. Even if
nothing was really updated between the original and the New Complete Joy, in
that regard.

Give the guy a break. It's tough to keep abreast of the craft and to have
the personal integrity to either update your books or pull them from the
market. Oh - never mind. He's done neither. Beat 'im up...

Brew you!

George Edwards
Louisville, KY
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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:06:28 -0700
From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com>
Subject: Thanks a Bunch!

Man, I was overwhelmed by the responses I received from list members in
response to my question, "Why Aerate?".  I will never forget "why" after
reading so much intelligent discourse explained with patience and an
obvious desire to communicate to me the importance of why and when as
well as why not and when not.

Thanks guys.  Hopefully one day I can contribute the same way.

Cheers!

Lee Smith
Chandler, AZ


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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:42:09 -0600
From: Brian Rezac <rawhide at oneimage.com>
Subject: RE: Boulder

Ephraim Fithian wrote:

>We are currently on vacation in Boulder, CO, waiting for the last 
>batch of homebrew to mature in Pennsylvania. Anything beerwise worth 
>visiting around Boulder?

Sorry, your request got by me.  I just don't scan the HBD like I use to.

There are plenty of places worth visiting in Boulder and the surrounding
area.  Downtown Boulder has Redfish (13th & Spruce), Mountain Sun (1500
block of Pearl), BJ's (1100 block of Pearl St. Mall), Walnut (1100 block
of Walnut) and Oasis Pub (Canyon & 11th).  The rest of Boulder has Oasis
Brewery (3000 block Walnut), Rockies Brewery "The oldest continuing
microbrewery in the US" (Wilderness Place), Twisted Pine Brewery
(Valmont around the 3400 block or so), Avery Brewing Co (Arapahoe past
55th).  I think I got them all.

In addition, you should stop by the relatively new Irish Pub, Conor
O'Neal's, on 13th between Pearl and Walnut.  They serve all three:
Guinness, Murphy's and Beamish - all on tap and all on nitro!  (You
can't even get that in Ireland!)

If you still have time, you should get up to Longmont - "The Hub of the
Brewing Universe".  We have Lefthand/Tabernash Brewing Co. and the
Pumphouse Brewpub.  Or even down to Denver...but that's a whole other
list.

In addition to these suggestions, there are two beer festivals this
weekend.  One in Aspen and one closer in Estes Park.  I'll be at the one
in Estes.  It runs from 11am until 6pm on Saturday, August 19th.

If you're still having trouble deciding, feel free to give me a call at
(303)875-MALT (6258).  I'll be happy to make more detailed
recommendations or even have a beer with you.

Good Luck & Good Beer!

Brian Rezac

PS - If anyone from the HBD community is ever visiting Boulder County,
feel free to give me a call.  I still drink beer for a living and having
another homebrewer along is usually not a problem.


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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:02:08 GMT
From: "dr smith" <drsmithhm at hotmail.com>
Subject: St Pats Bashing...

"Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com> wrote thusly:

>As for St. Pats, it's a never ending saga. They out pace every other 
>company in complaints. Search the archives or Deja News and you find plenty 
>of people with complaints. It's not unusual for Lynn to all but call the 
>brewer a liar. From poorly packed orders to defective kegs to slow 
>shipping, it's never St. Pat's
>fault.

I cannot agree with this.  I have seen one post on r.c.b where
someone was unhappy and I can't call this a saga.  I'm not saying
there aren't other unhappy customers - just that I'm not seeing the
complaints to which you refer.

As for my unscientific single datapoint, I have ordered from them
many times and most of the time the box arrives looking like the
american tourister testing department got it first(yes, I am
bashing some UPS station between TX and NY, not St. Pats).  On 2
occasions, I've had broken or chipped glassware and they've always
re-shipped the products no questions asked.  No other equipment
I've ordered has been damaged despite the rough handling.  Maybe
Lynn should use a different shipping company, but I can't complain
about the service.

	--drsmith
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 08:57:07 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: chloramines, Charlie P,

Brewsters:

Domenick and AJ both believe that chloramines are more volatile than
chlorine ( I guess that is one interpretation).  AJ even did some
experiments to demonstrate it. Somehow I missed this change in AJ's
position from the only way to remove chloramines effectively was to use
carbon fitration to the position that plain boiling does it. No problem
with that change in position, in fact I appreciate it, but it does bring
some thoughts to mind.

Certainly one might expect that chloramines can decompose at higher
temperatures (Chlorine is just associated with the ammonia) , but to be
more volatile than chlorine into which presumably chloramines would
decompose?? Isn't logical. Maybe the same as, but not faster than chlorine
if that is the product of decomposition. Unless I misinterpreted AJs
experimental results and explanation.

My question is why do municipalities bother with chloramines or other forms
of fixed chlorine if this is the case? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Maybe I should leave the cyanuric acid out of my pool?
- -----------------------------------
Lee Seog comments on CP's  contribution to homebrewing. Actually, Charlie
Papazian didn't invent the concept of Homebrewer Bittering Units ( HBU)
Dave Line did. So for all of CP's bad ideas in brewing techniques, this
wasn't one of them.

Remember Charlie is a Nuclear ( or as he says an Unclear) Physicist who
never earned his living at it. He's no chemist or chemical engineer. Had no
industrial experience. Became a teacher. Was caught up in the thrill of
homebrewing in the 70s, published some local brewing newsletters and
eventually wrote the JoH and started the AHA. He had the balls to discard
his job teaching elementary school ( I think) and jump into the world of
earning a living by doing what he liked. There was no model for this.  I
respect him for this, as I know how it feels to step out into the wind
also.

It does drive me crazy though  when I look at his books and see him
fermenting in a carboy and pouring hot wort through the air and I imagine
all those messes with resultant mad SOs and all that homebrew being ruined
by oxidation. Saddest part is all those potential homebrewers who gave up
and concluded that "Homebrew tastes like Sh*t" as a result of reading JoH
and using it as a source for brewing technique.

Charlie is not a brewing technique god. He didn't invent homebrewing. But
he did play a major role in crystallizing and organizing an industry and
making it visible in the U.S. so IMHO, you can thank him for the
availability of all those shelves of goodies in the brew stores, and to
some extent, even the existence of brew stores. He and AHA can thank all
those consulting brew store owners and others,  like HBD contributors and
brewing book writers, for the continuance of the industry.
- -----------------------------------
Pomme Frites may be made with lard in some places to account for their
excellence, but I believe also an HBDer has commented that he sneaked a
peek at a drum in back of a Belgian PF wagon and the barrel said "beef fat"
( in French, o fcourse). Just like McD used to use until they were caught
up in the vegetable oil/no animal fat hysteria like the rest of this
country
- ----------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 08:56:31 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: FWH

 Seog Lee brings up first wort hopping and asked,
>>- ---about first wort hopping---
>Improved hop character and smoother bittering.

Explain?  Isn't most hop character derived from volatile hop oils?  Thus
adding hops
at the first pump over is a waste of your resources?  <<

I think the key word here is "volatile", at cast out temperatures of under
170 F the volatility is much lower and exposure times much greater;
leaving the desirable components time to infuse into the complex
matrix of the wort. Someone has suggested that the oxidized products
of the essential oils become more soluble and at the lower temperatures
have time to become part of the preboil wort. Either way it works.
Compare the recommended temperatures for steeping fine teas;
a good Darjeeling or fine Japanese green tea should be steeped
at 180 F whereas a Ceylon black can stand 200 F. The lower temperature
preserves the fine aromatics.

>>You would be better
served adding
more late hops or dry hopping.<<<

Different characters altogether; and I've tasted too many beers that
have excessive late additions that develope a green celery flavor
from excess leafy content.

>>and his "HBU" idea come to mind. <<
  I don't believe CP came up with the HBU concept, but no matter.
HBUs work nicely when you brew a beer again and the Alpha acid
content of the hops has changed. Rather than run through the
Rager formulas again, just divide the HBU by the new Alpha rating
and add that many ounces of the new hops, what so terribly wrong
with that? Since IBUs can't truly be calculated for the finished beer
using the HBU system gets you as close as any other method to
repeating the original batch.

N.P (Del) Lansing


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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:02:33 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: "Vegemite" (Yuck!)

Jim Steinbrunner writes....

- -----------------------------

Seasoning is added and, voila! VEGEMITE. A salty, umami-tasting
spread beloved by Aussies of all ages, and they owe it all to beer! Come
to think of it, a beer or two would be good to wash down the rather
persistent aftertaste  : )

Aussies and Vegemite: Viva l'difference!

- -----------------------------

    To anyone out there in the U.S. with a morbid fascination for "Vegemite" 
who want a better idea of what it's like... try this and I'm sure that most 
of my fellow Australian HBDrs could concur with me on this one.
    Open a bottle of homebrewed Imperial Stout, pour it into a glass at 
about cellar temperature and inhale it's aroma.
    Vegemite notes left, right and centre or do I imagine this?
    Don't get me wrong, I love an Imperial Stout, but I'm sure there are 
aromatic notes which compel be to spread it on toast!!!
    This could be a good excuse to drink Imperial Stout for breakfast... 
Sure would beat Special B oops! Sorry, I meant Special K.

Cheers - Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia

We're happy little Imperial Stouters,
Bright as bright can be,
We all enjoy our Imperial Stout for breakfast, lunch or tea,
Our mummies say we're growing stronger every single week,
Because we love our Imperial Stout,
We all adore our Imperial Stout,
It puts a rose in every cheek!

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---