---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Charlie vs. Noonan ("Warren White")
  RE: question: filling the space under the false bottom ? (John_Doherty)
  spent grains/hops (Vachom)
  Spent Grain and Hop Mgt. (Richard Foote)
  RIMS websites (Todd Etzel)
  Re: Yeast storage in sterile water ("Bill Pierce")
  Yeast Storage, Lauter Process (Jim Layton)
  Charlie!!! Charlie!!! (Blersch David TSgt 3CS/SCMET)
  Grains on Lawn, Histoical British brews, Rust and Lime (EdgeAle)
  re: FWH flavours and book criticisms ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: probably the world's finest homebrew supply ("Jamil")
  Dual purpose fridge? (spostek)
  Re: Charlie vs. Noonan (Doug Hurst)
  Re: Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn (Mea & Marvin)
  st. pat's (Mea & Marvin)
  plate heat exchanger ("dalibor jurina")
  Jason and Lynne sitting in a tree... ("St. Bats HomeBrew of Ohio")
  Re: Is My Hop Ruined? (Doug Hurst)
  St. Pats, Son of Fermenchiller (RCAYOT)
  Barley Wine Recipe Replication... ("Jeremy Craigs")
  Santa's Free Shipping (Rick Lassabe)
  Kits and bollox ("Dave Edwards")
  Stuff ("Dave Edwards")
  Re:Papazian and Phils Phloating Bottom (Rick Pauly)
  Brewpot Problem ("T & S Klepfer")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:49:51 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Charlie vs. Noonan

Bob Shotola Says...

Watching beer ferment is still a thrill to me. My first batch was poured 
into
the carboy in the garage, where a buddy topped off from the garden hose and
we pitched a packet of dry yeast into a ridiculously hot fermenter. That was 
a
t around 3 in the afternoon and by midnight I was dancing around the
fermenter, beer bubbling like mad.  We had a party as soon as the beer was
ready, maybe a little flat, and drank all of it.  Among those who drank the
brew (oh yes, replete with phenolics, diacytl, and so on) three went on to
become home brewers, and another to brew at the Edgefield Brewery 
(Troutdale,
OR). All of us started with the comfort of Papazian's, "Relax. Don't Worry.
Have a Homebrew!"

The friend who held the garden hose is now a Ph.D. in Geology and makes a
fine all grain stout. He brews to relax and rarely uses his hydrometer. Go
figure.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldn't have put it better myself....

    It really surprises me to see Charlie P. being slagged off about by his 
compatriots.
    As I've said before his advice may not always be right on the mark, but 
let's be
honest... The best football coaches aren't always the best footballers are 
they???
    I always hear how people think that his books are only good for propping
their fermenters up with at racking time.
    I must admit I've been guilty of that crime on the odd occasion but I  
still find
myself  half asleep during a 3 a.m. brewing session opening his books up 
just
because I'm wondering what the bloody hell I'm doing up at that time of the 
morning
watching my water going through 35 feet of copper cooling coil.
    But upon opening one of  his books I realise I may know a lot more now
and I'm probably a little past reading the bloody things, but think about 
this...
    What got most of us going in this hobby in the first place? What got us 
past
a homebrew kit and 2 pounds of cane sugar???
    Do we all have such short memories? Probably 7 to 8 out of 10 of us
would say our inspiration was The Complete Joy of  Homebrewing!
    I'm totally with Bob Shotola on this one, I've probably made well
over 40 all-grain batches now, I probably don't worry too much,
I DO relax,  but nothing gives me greater pleasure than watching my airlock
burp and thinking back to the thrill of watching that first batch burp as 
well!

Thanks Charlie & Bob
Warren L. White, Melbourne Australia
(Don't know about topping off with a garden hose though Bob!)

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:53:57 -0400
From: John_Doherty at cabot-corp.com
Subject: RE: question: filling the space under the false bottom ?

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:32:57 -0400 (EDT) darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu wrote:

>I love the Polarware lauter-tun that my understanding wife recently
>purchased for me.  It has saved me MUCH work....and at least one hour
>of time over the old zapap type setup.
>However, I have disovered, as was mentioned to me by one reader here, that
>the space under the ss false bottom holds a full gallon...so...the
>yield goes down a bit.  Now I am thinking (although another pound or two
>of grain does really not bother me that much...it is more of a challenge
>to me) thinking of how to use up some of this space....
>
>In the old setup (zapap like...ie grain bag in bottling bucket) I put
>a couple of pre-heated kithen plates into the bottom...before the bag
>(and plastic false bottom on top of that) and this serverd the dual
>purpose of both using up some of the space, and helping in keeping
>the tun warm (I then pre-heated with boiling water....just before
>moving the grain into the tun)...
>
>Well.. had anyone any ideas as to what is the best way to fill this
>space under the ss false bottom in a Polarware 10 gallon tun/kettle?
>Perhaps some pre-boiled/ cleaned flat rocks?  Perhaps some marbles?
>
> darrell

Darrell,
     I am still using a double bucket Zapap type setup, and I'll share my method
for taking up the "dead" volume between the bottom and the false bottom.  I use
1" diameter food grade polypropylene spheres, purchased from McMaster Carr.
They do float, and are intended to be used as an "anti-evaporation" blanket on
the top of an open drum, bucket or whatever container you'd like to minimize
evaporation from.  I use about 200 1" spheres between the buckets and have
dropped my underletting water amount from 5 quarts to less than 2 quarts.  The
spheres also act as another layer of "rough" filtering media, catching a bunch
of grain chunks that make it through the false bottom on the first pass.  I do
have to "clip" the buckets together to keep the upper (false bottom) bucket from
floating at first, but once I get the whole mash transferred in, the weight of
the mash, combined with the proper run-off and sparge flow rates, keeps it from
floating.  My recirculations are now shorter, and the runoff clears more quickly
 - plus the SG of the first runnings is higher due to using less underletting
water.  I'd say you could easily mimic this with your Polarware pot.  I thought
about marbles, but didn't like the idea of possible glass shards in the wort
(yes, I know they'd settle, but better safe than sorry).  Maybe you could find
something spherical that won't float.  Large SS shot, maybe?
     I hope to put my own Zapap out to pasture soon - time for an upgrade.  Of
course, as my wife will attest, I need to spend more of my "beer" time
completing my 1/2 bbl RIMS system, and less time brewing 5 gal. batches in the
kitchen.  But hey, I gotta keep my stock at a reasonable level, right?

Cheers,

John




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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:06:32 -0500
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: spent grains/hops

One last addition to the advice already given on using spent grains/hops as
fertilizer for lawns and gardens.  Composting the grains and hops is a must
for those who live in parts where fire ants thrive.  Dumping spent grains
directly on the lawn and garden is an almost instant recipe for fire ant
piles.  As for composting, dumping still steaming spent grains and hops in
your compost pile is a great way to get it cranking.

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:51:07 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Spent Grain and Hop Mgt.

What about use of spent grain to make spent grain bread?  It's great!  I
also use the last runnings from the lauter tun in place of tap water in the
recipe and cut down a bit on sugar.  I use a bread machine and 1/3 to 1/2
cup of spent grain.  Spent grains from darker beers are especially
appealing.  

I compost my spent grain.  Speaking of which, I once dumped my spent grain
on the 'ol compost heap and then realized I forgot to save any for bread.
No biggee.  A couple scoops off the top of the pile and problem solved!  

I once dumped spent hops on my lawn because I was too lazy to make it to my
compost bin.  Hops + grass = dead grass.  I don't think this was due to
stored heat.  Of course YMMV.

BTW, stop the Charlie bashing.  I read CJOHB, used it, moved on.  Besides,
I like a cold goat scrotum now and then.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:47:34 -0700
From: Todd Etzel <tetzel at ligo.caltech.edu>
Subject: RIMS websites

Dryw Blanchard requested addresses for pages with RIMS information.  I have 
also been playing around with the idea of building a RIMS system, and ran 
across these sites:

http://www.exothink.com
http://thekgb.org/
http://riptidebrewery.com/
http://advancedbrew.com/
http://brewersunlimited.com/
http://macatawa.org/~dkerfoot/
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/brew.htm
http://www.hom.net/~rogerson/brewpage.html
http://home.highertech.net/~cdp/


These sites at least have some good RIMS links, and a couple are completely 
dedicated to RIMS systems.




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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:00:44 -0500
From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast storage in sterile water

In HBD #3412 Graham Sanders asks:

>With all this debate on yeast storage, I was also wondering how many
>actually use the 'Sterile water" method. To me its by far the best. I have
kept >cultures like this for three years (and still going), although I
reculture after two >years to be safe. I just cant work out why more people
dont use it. Any >takers.

I have been doing this ever since I learned about while a student at the
Siebel Institute.  It seems simple to me and I have had excellent results
reusing yeast stored via this method, although I admit none of the strains
in my  home yeast bank are currently more than 15 months old.

I use quart mason jars to store the yeast.  When I rack the beer to
secondary  I harvest enough yeast sediment to fill the bottom of a
well-sanitized jar to the depth of about an inch (2-3 cm).  I then fill it
the rest of the way with distilled water that I have boiled and cooled, seal
the jar and place it in my refrigerator.

The optimum ratio of water to yeast is supposed to be 10:1.  At Siebel I was
told that stored below 4 degrees C (39 F) the yeast would remain viable for
at least 18 months and possibly longer.  During this time the overall
viability of the yeast remains quite high, until a point when the yeast
commit "mass suicide" and all die within a matter of days.

The reasons for why this occurs are not entirely understood. There is
speculation that when devoid of all nutrients the yeast go into a kind of
suspended animation.  Then at a certain point something occurs (perhaps a
critical level of one of the compounds in the cell) to cause them to
reawaken and very quickly autolyze and die.

When the time comes to reuse the yeast, I prepare a starter as I would for
almost any quantity of yeast other than a quart of slurry from a brewpub or
microbrewery.  I find that the amount from the bottom of my quart jars is
sufficient for a 2 liter starter.  If the yeast is more than a few months
old it may take a few days for the starter to show activity, but I always
have produced healthy and active yeast this way.

Currently in one of my spare refrigerators are a dozen jars with yeast
strains that I have harvested and stored.  I now seldom worry about whether
the local shop will have a particular strain in stock or the expense of
buying new yeast each time I brew.

Supposedly quite a number of brewpubs and micros use this method for storing
yeast in corney kegs for strains they do not use continuously.

Brew on!

Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Hombrewery
Des Moines, Iowa




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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:51:00 -0700
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: Yeast Storage, Lauter Process

Grahan Sanders asked to hear from others that store yeast under sterile
water. Count me as one. I have about a dozen strains stored this way,
most of them have been there roughly 18 months. I originally intended to
re-culture, streak on plates, and store again within a year, but time
keeps slipping away. I've tried to revive two strains for brewing within
the past two months. One, a Belgian ale strain, was successful. The
other, a lager strain, was not. Perhaps there are still live cells in
the vial, but I apparently didn't get one when I dipped my loop. I
pledge to the HBD that I'll re-culture every one of them and report the
results. Within the next year.

- ---------------------------------------------

Bill Fishburn received a lot of good advice on lauter tun design, but
his post leads me to believe that some input on the lauter process might
be useful. Here is how I do it.

Prepare more sparge water than you will need. I like to have at least
1/2 gallon excess. Put a clear vinyl hose on the outlet of the lauter
tun so that you can direct the flow into the bottom of your kettle
without splashing. I like to use a 2 ft. copper tube on the outlet hose,
makes it easy to move the outlet around and eliminates hose curling.
Make sure you have some sort of valve on the outlet, even if it is only
a plastic pinch clamp on the hose, so that you can control the flow
rate. 

To start the lauter, place a pot (make sure the pot is small enough to
lift out while full of wort) in the bottom of the kettle. Put the outlet
get a reasonable flow rate established. 

"Reasonable" flow rate is vague, I know, but in my lauter tun (10 gallon
Gott cooler) 1 quart/minute is fast and 0.5 quarts/minute is a bit too
slow. I recall reading that the sparge should take about 45 minutes, but
YMMV. 

Watch the bits and pieces of grain as they flow through the hose. Use a
cup to scoop the cloudy wort out of the pot and gently pour it back on
top of the grain bed. Continue recirculating until you don't see any
more chunks flowing through the hose, and maybe a bit longer if it still
looks cloudy. 

When the flow is clear enough to suit you, stop recirculating. Pull the
hose/copper cane out of the pot and let it rest on the bottom of the
kettle. Remove the pot and gently return the remaining cloudy wort to
the grain bed. Now you can start adding sparge water to the top of the
grain bed. I try to balance the water flow with wort flow, keeping about
one inch of water over the top of the grain, others do things
differently. Toward the end of the sparge, the water level will likely
sink below the level of the grain bed. That's OK, just try not to let
the grain bed drain completely. In my system, the last few ounces are
invariably cloudy and full of chaff. 

The sparge usually goes without a hitch but here are some things I've
learned to watch for. Make sure your hose/valve and hose/ copper tube
connection are tight. Air leaks are bad. Decoction mashes, some step
mashes, and mashes with a lot of wheat in the grain bill have a tendency
to create a lot of fine particles (Germans call it tieg, I think) which
can form a water tight seal at the top of the grain bed. This stuff will
stick a sparge but good! I prevent that by taking a large spoon and
gently stirring the top 2-3 inches of the grain bed periodically
throughout the sparge. This mixes the "mud"  with the husks and keeps
things flowing without clouding the runoff. Don't adjust the lauter tun
valve once you have a clear flow established, and definitely don't tip
the lauter tun or shift it around, that will cause the flow to become
turbid and chunky again. Good luck and have fun.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:20:57 -0000
From: Blersch David TSgt 3CS/SCMET <David.Blersch at elmendorf.af.mil>
Subject: Charlie!!! Charlie!!!

I agree with Bob who wrote:

"Hey Paul, I am the Bob in your first quote and also the author of the
second quote. I am in agreement with you about Charlie and have brewed many
good beers (at least to my taste) using his books. His writing style in
NCJoB got me into the sport a decade ago, and many of my friends as well. In
My Humble Opinion (but perhaps not that of SWMBO) Charlie rocks the house! "

Believe it or not "holier than though" home...I mean...excuse my white trash
vocabulary....craftbrewers; Charlie deserves quite a bit of credit for the
livelihood of our great hobby.  Reading a friend of mine's NCJoHB of
Charlie's while downloading the previous night's grub kept my attention for
so long, I couldn't help myself but to take it home and read further.  It
wasn't but a week later I bought my beginner's kit.  Now, if it had been a
book written by some of you guy's that feel homebrewiing...damn, there I go
again..I mean craftbrewing shouldn't be fun, but a serious blend of
chemistry and yeast biology; I would have throw it back on the floor, pulled
up my pants, and left with the impression homebrewing was for lab geeks
bored of making bombs.

His books have recruited many people to our great hobbie with just his
writing style, no matter how controversial some of his methods may be.
There should not be a single homebrew supplier out there bad mouthing
Charlie; they owe the success of most their business to him.  

You go Charlie!!!!   Cheers mate!  [_]0

Mash hopping rules, FWH is for sissies, yeah!!!

Hey, you too Tony!!  [_]0, wow, it's stuffy in here.

Dave Blersch
Homebrewer who has fun and gets a buzz.

TSgt David W. Blersch
Global HF Transmitter Site
3 CS/SCMET
DSN:  552-5141


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:29:45 -0400
From: EdgeAle at cs.com
Subject: Grains on Lawn, Histoical British brews, Rust and Lime 


  HBD,

  First, thanks for the many responses to my question about spreading 
  spent grains on the lawn. In summary, a couple of people have done it
  with few problems but one experienced a "burnt grass" where he spread
  it.

  Important notes: 1) spread very thin or rake it in to make sure it 
  dries and doesn't stink. 2) the grain could attract birds; 3) if 
  still sweet the grain will attract bees etc. 4) NEVER spread out 
  spent HOPS as they are poisonous to dogs.

  Many also suggested composting the grain, but I am not sure I will 
  have an out of the way corner for this. (Given the local real estate 
  market I will have a small house with a small lawn for the price of 
  a mansion estate in the midwest or south.)

  Now on to more questions...

  I have been reading "London and Country Brewing" from 1726, which I 
  downloaded off the net, and would like to try recreating a brew from 
  it. However, I have a few questions.

  1) Hops: What is the "oldest" breed of British hops still available, 
  E.Kent Goldings? Is 4.0 a good estimate for the aa% of the hops of 
  the time?

  2) Yeast: What is the best yeast for that old time flavor?

  3) What would be good estimates for the potential yield of the malts 
  and the mash   efficiencies of the time. If I use current numbers the 
  o.g.'s are ridiculous.

  4) What about diastatic power of the malts. The book indicates that 
  beers were made entirely with brown malts but current brown malts 
  (i.e. Baird) have virtually no diastatic power. Are these brown malts 
  drastically different and is there a better choice to approximate the 
  original brown malts?


  Also, while I'm at it here are some more quetions for everyone

  5) What is the best way to remove decades of caked rust? I have a very
  old/antique bench capper that I would like to recondition and put to 
  use. The hardware store has some rust remover that contains acid 
  (phosphoric?) but rather expensive. It probably would be cheaper to 
  buy straight acid and just use it (carefully, safty goggles, rubber 
  gloves etc.)

  6) What is the difference between the use of slaked lime and unslaked 
  lime. In the old book mentioned above, unslaked lime is used to 
  prepare isinglass but all I have at home is slaked lime. What 
  precautions must be taken when using lime to prepare something that 
  will be put into beer.

  Thanks for all the help
  Dana Edgell

  PS: I am going to look at a house the wife found today. She says I 
  will love the garage/brewery: Electrical pulgs everywhere, water from 
  the washer/dryer area, cabinets along all the walls, telephone and TV 
  cable hookup(!), workbench, and a big 220V air compressor that they 
  are leaving behind (Humm ... an pneumatic brewery?)


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:48:40 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: FWH flavours and book criticisms

Graham Sanders says of FWH:

> On this debate on FWH, I have tried this extensively and yes
> it works, but I
> do have a problem with it.  To those who have tried it, I
> notice there is
> like an extra flavour that seems to come from FWH.

Can you describe this flavour at all? I'd like to examine my FWH beers for
it, but I really have no idea what I'm looking for.

Tony Clifton stepped off the set of Grease III long enough to write:

> Paul, I'm with you on that one.  Where's the fricken' books
> written by all
> you Charlie bashers?  Come on, where are they, I'd like to go
> buy one!  Have
> you written anything besides your inconsequential banter here
> on the Digest?
> Crybabies all of 'ya!

(snip, snip)

> Go ahead pick on Papazian, you fricken' crybabies!
>
> That's it, I'm done
> Tony Clifton
>

Back to an earlier discussion, does anyone else hear Andrew Dice Clay's
voice while reading Tony's posting?

Anyway, thank you Tony, for the kind offer to buy my book. It is:

Troubleshooting Microprocessor-based Systems by Allan H. Robbins and Brian
Lundeen, LC Control Number 86025539, ISBN 0835932494, published by
Prentice-Hall.

Feel free to criticize it, whether you have published a book or not. As an
author, I feel that anything I put out for public consumption is fair game.

Brian



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:50:45 -0700
From: "Jamil" <jamilz at jps.net>
Subject: Re: probably the world's finest homebrew supply

> Lynne O'Connor writes:
> Subject: probably the world's finest homebrew supply
> p.s.  Coincidentally, I got 4 pallets of the 6.3 oz clear glass, very
> heavy-duty
> barleywine bottles (not green champagne bottles) this morning.  Can
> be capped or corked.  $14.75/cs + shipping.  I don't patronize
> customers with "free shipping".
>
> There is a Santa Claus, there is a tooth fairy, there is "free
> shipping".
>
> Lynne O'Connor
> St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply

Why do you feel the need to attack other suppliers? I don't see them bad
mouthing you, yet it seems you've always got some claim that everyone else
is to blame. So we're to believe that you've never made a mistake? That
every shipment you've ever made is perfect? And then we're supposed to wash
it down with yet another chunk of your advertising?

Maybe you want to look at how you deal with people and the comments you
make. I think there is some correlation between this and the significant
amount of negative comments about you and your store. I for one can't
believe that absolutely everyone that has posted something negative about
you is making it up. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Take for example the time I called your store and asked about the corny keg
pressure relief valves in your catalog. The person on the phone said you
didn't carry anything like that. When I told them it was in the catalog they
said they had to talk to the boss and the boss wasn't there. OK, so maybe I
got someone new, that happens. I did end up buying what I needed from
another shop at a lower price and with free shipping. I won't mention the
company, because I think this forum should NOT be a vehicle for advertising.
If there weren't so many good suppliers adding USEFUL information to this
forum, I'd suggest banning all retail outlets from posting to this list.

JZ



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:05:13 US/Eastern
From: spostek at voicenet.com
Subject: Dual purpose fridge?

Thank you for the great responses I received re
my recent kegging questions.  Here is what I hope
to be the last question I have before going out
and making a purchase.

I was hoping to kill two birds with one stone and
lager and keep a keg cold in the same unit.  And
well of course the larger reason is that I want to
keg and lager and my dear wife will only let me
buy one unit for such activities.

Is there a way to do this?  A side by side is a
thought but they are quite expensive.  And even
if I could find one used can you adjust the
freezer side to stay at beer serving temps? Does
anyone know what the temperature range on those
is?  Will a temperature device control a freezer
compressor the same as a fridge compressor?  Is
there any difference at all?

Okay and lastly I have heard from a kind gentleman
who answered my last question some ideas about a
cold plate inside, keeping the kegs outside the
fridge, and freeing up space inside for lagering.

Any ideas on that one?  Someone who has done it?
How much that one costs over the price of the
fridge?

THANKS.

Steve
spostek at voicenet.com



- ---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail.
      http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/




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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:07:01 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Charlie vs. Noonan

I must agree with Bob Shotola about the virtues of C Pap.  (ok, bad pun
intended).  I started brewing about twelve years ago (as a project for a
university botany class) and there were few brewing books available in my
area.  After crashing through that first batch without any understanding of
what I was doing I purchased NCJoHB.  The edition I got didn't even have an
index and there were certainly other problems with the writing like poor
organization.  But, it did give me a very good understanding of the entire
brewing process, beer styles, and a clear path of progression from beginning
to advanced techniques.   I also took to heart the now (in)famous phrase and
really did relax a bit. 

I have since expanded my brewing library to include books by Miller, Mosher,
Daniels and others.  While I would say that Papazian's techniques do have
their faults, he does give a good basic overview of the process.  I have
only once had a beer that was bad (infected) and Papazian's tutulage helped
me understand where I had gone wrong.  My now dog eared copy of NCJoHB still
sits prominently in my brewing library and I refer to it quite often.   I
would not advise anyone to rely solely on his book, but I would recomend it
to a new brewer.  

I look forward to reading Noonan and am thinking about shelling out the cash
for DeClerck's volumes.  Now, instead of continuing with the Pap bashing
maybe there's someone out there willing give us a review of DeClerck?  Is it
worth having as a homebrewer? 

Doug
Chicago, IL


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:30:57 -0700
From: Mea & Marvin <mcmc at loop.com>
Subject: Re: Spreading spent grains and hops on lawn

Hops have not been conclusively proven to be toxic
in dogs. Back in 1996 several dog deaths were at-
tributed to hops ingestion, however none have been
reported since. The dogs that were involved in the
above deaths were greyhounds (3) and a border
collie.
The latest theory regarding the deaths was that the
hops harvest of or immediately preceding 1996 was
infected with some sort of fungus that killed the
dogs via a process very similar to botulism.

I have a pit bull with chronic IBS. We were about to
put him down when one brew day he got in the trash
and ate spent grains mixed with hops. His condition
immediately improved, and we later learned that
hops have been used by herbologists since the olden
days to treat bad guts. Hops contain some compound
that relaxes smooth muscle tissue, and the spent
grains increase the fiber content and decrease the
transit time through the bowel.

As no formal research has been performed (that I know
of) concerning hops toxicity in dogs, I wouldn't recom-
mend allowing a dog to ingest hops, or any other un-
known substance for that matter. However, if you're
about to put a dog down because of chronic IBS, my
experience suggests that it's worth a try.

I think I'll go have a brew and sweep the yard for mines.

J. Marvin Campbell
Lost Angeles

Fear the government that fears your large cooking vessels.



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:38:12 -0700
From: Mea & Marvin <mcmc at loop.com>
Subject: st. pat's

(On Soapbox)
Glad to see Lynne has gotten over her self-esteem
problem.
I have ordered from st. pat's. As good as some; worse
than a few. Here's my gripe:
I ordered a tank/reg/corny kit from st. pat's.
The valve hardware was made in Korea.
Every time I go get my tank filled, the gas guys rag
me about my cheapo Korean hardware.
Nothing against Korea, but when I'm looking to buy
quality machined metal of any kind, Korea just does
not come to mind. However, the next time I want
some kim chee or Tai Kwan Do, Korea will be foremost
on my list of possible sources.
I emailed Lynne and suggested that she owed it to her
customers to inform them of little details like points
or origin, and I (and no, Lynne, I'm not the only one)
would be more than willing to pay more for a higher
quality item that was not assembled by some poor
eleven-year-old slob making $20/week.
I guess Lynne is just our version of Kathy Lee:)
All sweatshop humor aside, Lynne did return my email
(that earns points) but she just said what I knew she
was going to say, i.e., The customers demand low prices,
we deliver that. Nobody's willing to pay more for
product just because it may be higher quality or was
manufactured domestically. My suppliers and I are
just doing the best we can with what we have to work
with....blah blah blah.
Call me madcap, call me what you will. I still sincerely
believe that buying Made-in-America is better for every-
one involved, and I believe most people will agree when
they realize that those low, low prices were artificially
achieved by breaking the backs of less fortunate people in third-world nations.
Now I'm no liberal, and God knows I
love laissez-faire capitalism, but making money off the
misery of others just ain't right.
(Off Soapbox)
Whew! All this principal shit has made me thirsty. I believe
I'll go have one of the finest brews I have to offer.

J. Marvin Campbell
Lost Angeles

Disclaimer: The above is just my opinion. If I were in some
sort of business where I made gobs more money by selling
crappy product made by hungry, dirty children in third-world
nations; screwing my customers AND the American worker
in the process, I'm sure it would all seem OK to me too.

Fear the government that fears your large cooking vessels.



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:02:34 +0200
From: "dalibor jurina" <dalibor.jurina at inet.hr>
Subject: plate heat exchanger

Once on the net I have found an article named "Thermodynamics of Chilling":
Now I can`t recall name of author but he offered then a plans for making a
plate heat exchanger. Yes it was posted long ago, but if someone still have
this plans please let me know, or even better send them to me.

Thanks
Dalibor Jurina




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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:49:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "St. Bats HomeBrew of Ohio" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Jason and Lynne sitting in a tree... 

Good ole lynne goes off on poor mis informed mister henning... 

Babble babble babble... Jason complains... Jason has never ordered...
Jason is a two faced whining little girl that drives a foreign
Pickup. 

Geesh... Jason can not even support his local homebrew shop
correctly. By God Jason can't even hold his liquor and my friend
chuck has the bushes to prove it. 

Lynne can't seem to keep her temper and her customer service together
long enough to correct poorly filled orders. When a complaint is made
and nothing is done to correct the customers problem the customers go
to the web community and pass along that her company is not a good
company to do business with. Lynne... rather than doing the right
thing and making nice with the customer and making sure that the
order problem is corrected, Lynne goes ape on all that complain. 

Well the answer is do not patronize this Cruella DeVille...!

Move along to companies that give you good service and let hers
slowly become what it is destine to become. 

I find it hard to give Lynne any credibility in this forum because it
appears that she is only here to do what she is ultimately after...
SELL FOR HER STORE!

After defending herself and her great reputation she then posts this:


"p.s.  Coincidentally, I got 4 pallets of the 6.3 oz clear glass,
very 
heavy-duty barleywine bottles (not green champagne bottles) this
morning.  Can be capped or corked.  $14.75/cs + shipping.  I don't
patronize customers with "free shipping"."

I personally am sick and tired of her blatant advertising on the HBD
and would rather read Kyle Druey's dribble about Eric Fouch instead
of having her advertise  on this forum blatantly!

Perhaps the HBD steering group can do something about this. 

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
Scott Abene
President, CEO, and all around Homebrew supply God

Visit us at: http://www.make_sales_on_the_hbd.com/screw_the_customer.html

"If we give you crappy service... Tough! Deal with it Whiner"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:02:28 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Is My Hop Ruined?

Glyn Crossno writes:
"when some how I knock the beer over and into my harvested hops. I saved
half the beer, closed and locked the swing top. Strained the beer from the
hops and then rinsed the hops with water. Finish the harvest and put the
hops in the attic to dry. So are my hops ruined?"
My question is: did you drink the beer you strained off the hops?  Sounds
like the ultimate in dry hopping to me.
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: 25 Aug 2000 17:50:44 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: St. Pats, Son of Fermenchiller

     First of all , I would like to say that I have dealt with a few 
     mail order and a few local Homebrew shops.  I have had very good 
     service from St. Pats, Brewers Resources, and Williams Brewing, the 
     only ones I have used.  I think if they were poorly run and gave 
     poor service, they would have gone out of business long ago!  
     
     Go! Lynn Go!
     
     On to Son of Fermenchiller!
     
     Ken has a great idea for a product that many people would (should) 
     love to have!  I made my SOFC a couple of years ago, Kens plans and 
     directions are first rate!  I however won't purchase one because I 
     already have one, BUT I highly recommend one to anyone who will 
     listen, it works great!  Anyone who has limited refrigerator space, 
     check out Kens plans, think about what it would be like to have 
     temperature control for your fermentations!  Sionce moving to the 
     Gulf coast from New England, I have lost my cellar!  The SOFC fills 
     in nicely in my utility room and I use it for all of my Ale 
     fermentations.
     
     Good Luck Ken, and to all of you who don't control the temperatures 
     of your fermentations, get cracking!  There is no excuse, support 
     Ken's idea.
     
     Roger Ayotte



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:46:13 EDT
From: "Jeremy Craigs" <kingjeremyis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Barley Wine Recipe Replication... 

I recently had a Barley wine from Kawartha Lakes Brewing company called 
"Alien Ale" it was a strong, sweet brew with hints of licorice. I 
DESPERATELY want more... Its not available as it was a limited run beer.

SO.. I am going to try and brew it. Any suggestions? What yeast? Malt?
etc... I know you add a spice (anicette?) for the licorice.. But how much 
are we talking about?

I would be extremely appreciative for any help in formulating a recipe...

Please respond via email as I dont always get a chance to read the mailing 
list
Thanks,
Jeremy (kingjeremyis at hotmail.com)
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:29:44 -0500
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Santa's Free Shipping

In digest #3412 Ms. O'Connor makes reference to " There is a Santa
Clause, there is a tooth fairy, there is "free shipping". Now I
personally have not seen  Mr. Santa Claus, nor the tooth fairy; but I
can attest that free shipping is alive and well in at least one
home-brew mail order shop. I have purchased from a mail order home brew
shop that offers free shipping after a $35.00 order, (Beer Beer and More
Beer) STANDARD  DISCLAIMER HERE!!!.

I am sure no one can please all the people all the time, boy that sounds
like an old saying, but I wouldn't have any problem ordering from Ms.
O'Connor business based on what I have heard on this forum. I use grains
from St. Pat's  that were brought to me from a friend in Austin, so I
certainly didn't pay shipping on it. What I do have a problem with
is...... why should I pay more at one mail order store, when I can get
the same items at a lower price at another? I don't see how anyone
cannot consider the cost of shipping when they are buying any product,
that's just good ole common sense!!! If it's a specialty item, well,
that's a different story.

If I order something via mail order that cost $ 55.95 Plus $ 2.35
shipping and I could get the same product for less than  $ 58.30.....
well call me the tightest person in the world, but I'll go for the
saving, as long as the service is equal or better, every time!

Again, I wouldn't have a problem ordering from Ms. O'Connor if her price
will meet or beat the price, including shipping, that I know I can get
at  Beer Beer and More Beer.

I have also ordered from Double Springs; U-brew; Hop-Tech; Valley, and
William's, at the time the product  I needed  these companies had the
best buy and I was please with the service. I have also bought from the
closest brew shop in my area, (Brew-Ha-Ha), when I have had the chance
to drive the 75 or so miles. Again STANDARD DISCLAIMER!

I do not receive any compensation from any home-brew shops at this time,
but I will be more than willing to listen any negotiations that are
offered. ( Just a joke Lynn, but the next time someone refuses free
grain just contact me, I bet I can find a use for it)

Rick Lassabe
Bayrat's " Bayou Degradable Brewery"
If there is free shipping then maybe Virginia there is a Santa Claus
after all! No comment on fairies!



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:23:53 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Kits and bollox


Lance Levsen thought that he had a good point when he wrote this:
| My point being that in my circumstances given an equal regard to process,
the
| beer is dictated by quality of ingredients, not type of ingredients.

Bollox mate, one day sit down and get two coffee's, one made from fresh
ground beans, the other made from instant coffee. Essentially, the same crap
but with VERY different results. This is just what malt extract is, the real
stuff processed to be easier to use. This processing is always going to
detract from the flavour.  I'm not bagging extract brewers, if your attitude
is 'close enough is good enough' then they're okay, I'm just saying that 99
times oout of 100, a well made mash beer is going to be better than a well
made kit beer.

Oh yeah, kits are for wankers ; )
(Luv ya college boy)

Cheers,
Dave.



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:45:32 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Stuff

Firstly, if that was the real Charlie P that posted a little while back,
then I am as happy as a pig in shit. He has at  last shown that he is not
scared of some of the mindless morons that posts here, and will stand up for
himself. Cheers mate.

As for Anthony Parlati
| to what I really wanted to post.  WHY IN GOD'S NAME DOES
| PHIL'S PHALSE BOTTOM PHLOAT??????  Rhetorical question.  I
| know WHY it floats, but why was it made out of something that does
| float? Almost as stupid as making a life preserver out of cast iron.  Does
| anyone make a non-floating false bottom for the ten gallon Gott cooler?
| It would make my brewing life so much easier.

It's pretty simple mate, weigh your bottom down.

Oh, and just a point, I am actually wondering how many of the blokes that
post here actually brew their own beer. There seem far too many blokes
sitting with their hand entertaining themselves and crtitisizing others
efforts, when they have no practical idea of what is happening or how
something works. I can't remember who wrote it, but a couple of days back
some wanker wrote about how hops in the mash would be of no use, and that
late or dry hops should be used instead. I am not angry at this man, I feel
sorry for him. He has no position in life, and is too scared to try
something that works brilliantly, he just sits there and reads, without ever
trying to see if something will work. Too mcuh theorizing, not enough
brewing.

Cheers,
Dave.

Oh ps, Chad and Mark are some great fella's over on the other side of the
pond.




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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 07:56:00 -0400
From: Rick Pauly <flp2m at unix.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re:Papazian and Phils Phloating Bottom

Antony Parlati makes some good points about CP. He introduced a lot of us
to homebrewing and with some good sound basics as well. I brew all grain
now but a friend of mine still brews with extract and makes excellent beer.
He pays attention to details and boils the whole 5 gallons and cools with a
counterflow chiller. His best beers were made when he could buy very fresh
extract from the local Brew on Premises. 

I brew 10 gallon batches and use a Gott cooler mash tun with Phils Bottom.
To hold it at the bottom of the tun I use a piece of 1/2" soft copper
tubing bent into an almost closed "C" which fits tightly to the sides of
the cooler. I push this down on the false bottom and that holds it fast.

Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA


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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 07:07:38 -0500
From: "T & S Klepfer" <lee-thomas at indian-creek.net>
Subject: Brewpot Problem

Long time lurker, first time poster.  Thanks for all the great information
(and entertainment).  I found at a yard sale a 20 gal. heavy stainless pot
for $15!  It was equipped with an old rusty chrome-plated steel spigot for
dispensing ice tea or hot water, and the drilled hole is 1 1/4" in
diameter.  My question to all of you worldwide brewers (by the way, where
exactly does Dr. Pivo broadcast from?):  what is the best way to plumb a
drain valve etc. into this huge hole.  Welding is out of the question
because the pot is 304 stainless clad to mild steel.  Use a 1" nipple? 
Solder in a washer shaped piece of sheet and use a smaller fitting size? 
Also, I've noticed that ball valves have a plastic, maybe teflon  bushing
or packing around the ball.  Can this melt or degrade from the heat of the
boil?  Any and all help to my questions would be appreciated.
On another topic, personally I enjoy the often off-topic banter from you
guys Down Under, even if I don't always understand the lingo.  Much more
enjoyable than some of the long-winded technical discourse and debate from
dueling "experts".  As the saying goes - to get 10 experts to agree you
have to shoot 9.
Thanks in advance for the help.

Lee Thomas
Medina, Texas


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