---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Hops/Mash pH (Dave Burley)
  Re: Notes from Charlie P. ("Warren White")
  hops and house pets (BruRtInc)
  Gott Coolers ("Mark Vernon")
  Phil's Phunny Phloating Phalse Bottom (Aaron Robert Lyon)
  phloating Phil's Phalsies (Scott Birdwell)" <defalcos at insync.net>
  hot side/ cold side and other oxidations.The value of Papazian's book ("Dr. Pivo")
  Dr Pivo Papazian ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Re  Hop back ? (RobertJ)
  Proper Phalse Bottom Use (Dan Listermann)
  Fridge Fan (Paul Dey)
  Using rain water ("Peter Fitzsimons")
  HSA Again - Moyer's Comments - Fix's Opinion ("John or Barb Sullivan")
  re: picnic cooler lauter tuns ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Water Chemistry ("Steve")
  Oxygen and hot wort... (Some Guy)
  Advertising on the HBD; Suggested book for the new brewer (Kurt Kiewel)
  A home-malting system page (Jim Adwell)
  Topsfield Fair Homebrew Competition - Entries Due Now! (Seth Goodman)
  AHA Membership Renewal/Redemption (Fred and Sue Nolke)
  Sterile water storage method for yeast, home roasting ("Graham Sanders")
  West Australian brew club. (Edward Doernberg)
  Rennerian Offset Coordinates? (Rod Prather)
  Bleach and Glass (Dryw Blanchard)
  choose clubs carefully (Vachom)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:31:52 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hops/Mash pH

Brewsters:

Martin asks if anyone has done an experiment in which the effect of hops on
the pH of distilled water has been measured.  This experiment would be
irrelevant if you are looking at the effect on mash pH of early hop
addition. The important pH altering substances in hops would be smalll
amounts of tannins ( weak acids)  and alpha acids which are insoluble at
mash temperature.  The major controlling pH factors are the phosphate
buffers set up by the malt and any calcium ion in the mash liquor.

But don't let my opinion stop you from doing the experiment, just do it on
a  mash, if that is the information you want.
- -----------------------------------------
As far as urea in brewing suppplements goes, if the packet contains little
white balls  ( "prills") likely that is urea. Urea also comes as white
crystals.

I have only had a problem once in which likely one of these supplemets
would have been useful and that was in a class I taught ( naturally) at
Rutgers. I used a John Bull stout extract to make it simple and it just
would not ferment properly. I presume it was due to too low FAN as a result
of a high % sugar content.  Many of these prepared kits have an incredible
quantity of sugar. If you want to avoid using nutrients - which I
recommend- with kits use pure malt extract in place of sugar. The beer will
be infinitely better and safer. All grain beers need no nutrients.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:48:48 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Notes from Charlie P.

Paul Gataza quotes Charlie P...

Of course adding a pinch of cinnamon to my mash may be helping avoid hot
side aeration.  Cinnamon is a strong antioxidant during the mashing process,
so I have been told by some very knowledgeable old time Dutch brewers.

____________________________________________

We just know everyone is going try this one don't we?
I'll be following this thread with interest!
Of course we know that the Charlie P. bashers won't be.
By the way... Has anybody actually tried it???

Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia
(Off to grind my Cinnamon stick)

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:55:10 EDT
From: BruRtInc at aol.com
Subject: hops and house pets

Hops and house pets have occasionally proven to be a fatal combination.  
Discarded hops ingested by certain dogs may result in a condition called malig
nant hyperthermia, which manifests itself as heavy panting and a rapid 
heartbeat, possibly resulting in the death of the animal.  

It is recommended that you keep dogs (and all house pets, for that matter) 
away from your hop supply -new or used.

Marty Nachel
"Homebrewing for Dummies"


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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:34:00 -0500
From: "Mark Vernon" <mark at pleasantstreet.com>
Subject: Gott Coolers

All this talk about 10gal gott coolers. I use a stainless steel false bottom
and bulkhead ball valve kit that i bought from stainless in seattle (usual
disclaimers apply..yada yada yada) at www.beeronline.com. I think i spent
around $75.00 on both the bottom and the valve

Mark Vernon
Pleasant Street Brewery
mark at pleasantstreet.com
www.pleasantstreet.com




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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona at umich.edu>
Subject: Phil's Phunny Phloating Phalse Bottom

>Now, to what I really wanted to post.  WHY IN GOD'S NAME DOES
>PHIL'S PHALSE BOTTOM PHLOAT??????  Rhetorical question.  I
>know WHY it floats, but why was it made out of something that does
>float? Almost as stupid as making a life preserver out of cast iron.
>Does anyone make a non-floating false bottom for the ten gallon Gott
>cooler? It would make my brewing life so much easier.
>
>Tony P.

When I used Phil's Phalse Bottom in my ten gallon Rubbermaid (same as
Gott, right?) cooler (which was up until yesterday) I first replaced the
elbow and tubing with metal.  This seemed to solve the "phloating"
problem, mostly.  My main complaint, however, was that when I did wheat
beers I ALWAYS encountered a stuck sparge (even with 2 lbs of rice
hulls) and had to dump the entire mash into my hot liquor tank, clean the
mash tun, and then dump it back.  This worked, but usually made a mess and
really pissed me off!  I deduced/guessed/hoped that this was due to the
wheat compressing down and essentially flattening the plastic false
bottom onto the bottom of the mash tun and consequently stopping the
flow.  So, to solve the problem (and to answer your question) I replaced
the plastic bottom yesterday with ABT's stainless false bottom.  Though
this false bottom is intended for use in sanke kegs, I found it fit well
into the bottom of the cooler.  I also had to have the center hole drilled
out to allow the same elbow joint I had been using to fit.  This done, I
put it to the test yesterday with a completely experimental "multigrain"
beer containing 4lbs wheat malt, 3lbs rye malt, 2lbs flaked oats, and 2lbs
flaked maize in addition to the barley and rice hulls.  I had absolutely no 
problems.

I hope some of that can be of use.

 -Aaron



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:48:27 -0500
From: "DeFalco's (Scott Birdwell)" <defalcos at insync.net>
Subject: phloating Phil's Phalsies

Anthony Parlati is having problems with Phil's Phalse Bottoms phloating
in the mash tun.  We, too, had this problem until we simply cut a 5 1/2"
length of 3/8" copper tubing, snugged it up to to the elbow and
connected the two with an inch of 3/8" flexible plastic tubing.  BTW on
the other end of the copper tubing we put a #2 drilled rubber stopper
which fits nicely into the back of the plastic bottling spigot that we
have affixed in place of the push-button spigot provided with the
cooler.  This whole set-up will not warp with heat and is rigid, so it
won't float in the mash.  We have used this set-up to brew literally
hundreds of batches of non-suckion contaminated beer over the past six
or seven years.   Hope this helps.  Later. . .

Scott Birdwell
DeFalco's Home Wine & Beer Supplies





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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:12:07 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: hot side/ cold side and other oxidations.The value of Papazian's book

I was waiting a bit for someone to react to the information, that
probably the most "elegant" (I do believe I have previously described
the diplomatic use of this tasting term, to avoid saying "lacking
character"), and stable beers in the world (Budweiser), purposely aerate
their hot wort.

John Sullivan finally did. He asks about oxygen ingress at different
stages of wort production. Should one follow the never ending  invisible
shark of the "HSA argument", I'm afraid knowing this is not quite
enough.... the "HSA boogie man" proponents, now propose that it is an
enzymatically steered process, which would make it irrelevant with
boiled wort, and indeed with any extract brewing as well.  It would even
explain then, why the only one of these posters on the subject who ever
tried to do some controlled 'spurmentation on the issue ('twas lil' ol'
me), couldn't create the stuff in enough level to be discerned within a
triangle test even with some brutal treatment.

There are lots of folks who are pretty sure that they have an anecdotal
experience where they think they know how it was caused, but they never
seem to recreate that situation in any controlled manner and find out.

Maybe there was more than one thing going on?

I'd still say it is pretty much a "crock", but would envelope that
within the following comment.

Excess exposure to oxygen at ANY time in the process will shorten the
life of the product INCLUDING at the time of pitching yeast.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to return to the concept of "oxidation"
or what is collectively called "old barrel flavours" as a group.

The ones that are really significant causal agents in my experience  are
1) cold side aeration 2) temperature 3) agitation, and 4) time.

All of these will be worse in INVERSE proportion to the yeast load....
in other words the more healthy yeast aboard, the more it will tolerate.

Some brief detail.

1) The later in fermentation and the more number of times you rack off
the yeast, the more careful you have to be to not introduce "air". 
Should "old barrel flavours" plague you, you might consider jumping over
the secondary.  One of the local lads routinely racks directly to kegs
from primary, and then after a week or two pulls off a glass or two of
"yeast slop" from the tap, and then leaves it alone.

His beer stays nice quite a long while.

Another "trick" for avoiding this problem is by not reducing the O2
exposure, but by increasing the yeast load.... this is exactly what you
are doing with a "krauzen" and I am convinced why they stay so
virginally fresh.

2) Raising temperature will not only speed oxidation, but I am convinced
at some stages cause it.  I've never read a single word in print to
explain the phenomenon, but I have mentioned here that the "rising temp
in the secondary" is a way to make a beer that not only tastes of "old
barrel" immediately, but gets worse with time, even if you get the temp
down later.

Why, this phenomenon even caused me to build an entire refrigerated
"cool room" in my cellar just to avoid that happening again at this time
of year.

There is an old Czech expression: "When the plums are ripe, no beer is
good", and I have wondered if this does not come from the days of fairly
primitive refrigeration, and that one just couldn't manage the cellar
temps in August... but then again I wonder about a lot of irrelevant nonsense.

3) Anyone who has carted kegs around should be familiar with "transport
damage" flavours.  If not, take one of two twin kegs, load it in the car
boot, and then drive around a few kilometres (a bumpy dirt road will
help), and then put the keg back next to its twin, and let them sit
until the next day.... the difference between them should be obvious. 
This is also something I've not heard an adequate explanation for, but
falls in the "oxidation" flavour family.  I do believe it is a "kinetic
energy thing" that gets those electrons whipping (how's that for a bogus
scienterrific explanation?).

It may be of interest to know that "krauzening up" even fixes that. 
I've done blind tastings before, where I add a small krauzen to a keg
before loading it in the car, and take one without, and upon arrival let
them sit a week.  The yeast loaded one is ALWAYS preferred, and quite
often unanimously.

4) From the moment you make your beer, it is heading towards an
oxidative grave.  Paying attention to the above things may prolong it's
trip there.  Paying attention to things like HSA may well make a
difference once your beer is dead for other reasons.... but isn't that
why we make it ourself?.... so we don't have to drink that "dead stuff"?

- ----

As to the subject of the value of Papazians books?  Someone brought me a
copy of one of his books from the states in I believe '89 or '90.   At
that point I had been brewing so long, and investigating the process in
such a perverse manner, that it had "no new information" for me.... and
you know what?   I enjoyed it immensely!  I think his attitude towards
brewing is very kindred to my own.... "brewing is fun , and it's not
difficult to make things more enjoyable than what you can buy in many
parts of the world. Not only that, the process is a pretty hardy one,
and if you do a few things right, you can then go on to develop an
individual style and technique, that might not already be defined."

I think it is a fine book to enthuse new brewers and lead them to good
beer making. It's like everything else I've read on the subject....  it
doesn't necessarily follow my own experience. But I think there is
probably good reason to question nearly every "truth" or "mandate" in
brewing, and the book I read places fewer of them out there than most.

Where does the science and technique stop, and the art begin?

Beats me.  I do think not only the making of beer, but the imbibing of
it, is an "art form", and I get the feeling that Mr. Papazian would fit
in well with the local crowd, and would be welcome to stop by for a beer
when the keg toating crowd comes creeping out of the woods.

As to some of the other posters here, yee shall at the least be required
to go through Visa applications at the Burradoo Hilton, may have to pay
Graham's carton fee, and just might have to spend a night with Mr. Pieman.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:04:15 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Dr Pivo Papazian

Now I don't care for AHA arguments and I don't care much for beer
competitions either.
I don't care for the ill feeling that has at times been thrown around in
here about Charlie. I wouldn't even like to enter into the argument, I
wouldn't be qualified.

But I find something very interesting about Charlie's recent post. What he
had to say matched to a tee what our own Doc Pivo (the one from Sweden) has
said in argument against some of the hi tech brewing theories that persist
so strongly in this forum. I can think of one particular bloke who just
can't seem to exist without them.

And of course Doc Pivo has been roasted alive for his stance (not to mention
for his snippy shots at those who don't take cover).

Probably one of the most important things I derived from Charlie's original
book was an attitude about making beer.
You don't have to fit into anybody else's square!
In fact you can just laugh at them.

Which probably most of you realise I do.
So too does Doc Pivo.

I'm glad to see that Charlie still seems to hold the same spirit with which
he wrote his book.

Without that spirit, homebrewing would be lost to the mechanics and
technicians of the hobby.
And believe me, there is no shortage of them!

Phil
Baron Of Odd Ideas



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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:00:34 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re  Hop back ?

"Ed Olsen / Kathy Riley" <olsen-riley at worldfront.com> wrote
Subject:

Greetings all,
Just saw a really spiff drawing (in Zymurgy) for a hop back rig using PVC
and tea ball screens.  I am considering building one for my whole grain
"beer machine".  The real goal is to reduce the amount of trub and gak I end
up with my primary.  I understand I should locate it upstream (before) the
wort counterflow chiller to get the full effect...any suggestions and/or hot
tips??

_____

I haven't seen the drawing in Zymurgy, but my first thought is that PVC
softens at about 140 deg F (white) I believe there is a grade good for
160F. Not sure if this will be an issue

I would not use the Hopback to hold back the trub. It will most likeley
clog, but will certainly slow the flow. I'd whirlpool the trub to the
center of the boiler before running the wort out the drain



Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:14:23 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Proper Phalse Bottom Use

Tony Parlati ( deadhead at ndak.net ) wrote:

<Now, to what I really wanted to post.  WHY IN GOD'S NAME DOES
PHIL'S PHALSE BOTTOM PHLOAT??????  Rhetorical question.  I
know WHY it floats, but why was it made out of something that does
float? >

Well I guess it is about time for my semi-annual explanition of how to use
a Phalse bottom.  Some people feel a deep need to pour all their strike
water into the mash tun at once before putting any grain in.  If they don't
hold the bottom down, it will float.   There are better ways of striking
from a lot of perspectives.  I add my grain as the water is introduced. 
That way all the grain is always near the strike temperature and never over
heated as is the first addition of grains into a very hot bath of strike
water.

Two ways of doing this will not cause the Phalse bottom to float.  Add a
pan full of water followed by a pan full of grist.  Stir.  Add another pan
of water and grist and stir.  Do this until all the grist is in the tun
adding more grist or water as you feel the need to maintain the proper
consistancy.   Note that this method keeps the temperature of the grist
very consistant and the weight of the grain keeps the bottom from floating.

Another way is to underlet all the strike water up through the Phalse
bottom while mixing in the grist.  This has all  of the above advantages
plus you don't need to  pan the water.  Reduce your strike water
temperature 5 F when you use this method as it greatly reduces heat loss.

If you can't be persuaded to try the above methods and insist on pouring
all the strike water in before the grist, stressing the enzymes of the
early grist, consider a stick or a weighted hose to hold the bottom down. 
I prefer to use it as it was designed.



Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com  

Check out the new E-tail site - www.listermann.com!  Please be patient!!




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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:41:10 -0600
From: Paul Dey <alldey at uswest.net>
Subject: Fridge Fan 

Brewers & Esp. Fridgeguy,

I bought a used fridge yesterday.  When I called the gal, she said she
bought a newer, bigger fridge and didn't have room to keep the old
one. "I'll be right over after lunch, please plug it in so I can see
that it runs".  So, its nice and cool when I show up. "I'll take it". 
Since my bud doesn't show up last night to help me unload, I don't
plug it in till around noon today.  It was upright throughout the
move.  I plugged it in as soon as I got it to the brewery.  It starts
humming and cold air is blowing.  It is a Kenmore with a freezer on
top.  We retire to the garage for a couple Blue Paddle Pilsners (my
own stash has long since been reduced to barleywines and meads).

When I wander downstairs an hour later I wonder how the heck a ground
squirrel got in my new fridge. That chattering seems to be coming
from...Huhh?  What, my "new" fridge is making bad sounds!  Loudest in
the freezer...must be a bad fan.  So I unplug it and unscrew two
screws on the fan shroud.  Plug it in.  7 minutes later as I watch the
twirling fan thinking of swinging cats in the general direction of
folks who sell junk, the noise starts again.  The fan visibly slows as
though its binding upon heating up.  Then it "releases" and turns
normally for awhile before "binding" again.  At last, my questions:

Can I fix the fan (surely not as easy as a squirt of oil somewhere?)?
Could this have happened AFTER I handed over $75?

Thanks! My lagers need you!

Paul Dey
Cheyenne, WY


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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:00:12 +0930
From: "Peter Fitzsimons" <peterf at senet.com.au>
Subject: Using rain water

Hi all

There has been a bit of discussion about water lately in the digest. My
question is about using rain water as it is clean and naturally doesn't have
a problem with chlorine of any sort.

What are the pros and cons of using rain water and what styles of beer would
benefit from using it ?

Thanks

Peter



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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:26:36 -0500
From: "John or Barb Sullivan" <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: HSA Again - Moyer's Comments - Fix's Opinion

Regarding the HSA discussion, Doug Moyer has opined recently that he was
frustrated about this argument and that most had it all wrong (i.e. it is
not dissolved oxygen we are worried about but the accelerated reactions at
higher temps) and that he was tired of seeing this apples and oranges
argument.  Too bad you're tired of the argument Doug.  It will continue to
be an issue and I don't think your explanation is the be all and end all of
the explanations for this issue.  
 
I recently posted a question about oxygen ingress at different stages of
the brewing process which I think is still a relevant discussion issue on
this subject.  I also suggested that perhaps oxygen ingress at higher
temperatures is really less of an issue than we like to believe and that is
the reason that CP can advise newbies to pour the near boiling wort through
the air with little negative effect on the finished product.

I won't argue with the fact that accelerated redox reactions should be of 
concern but how does the oxygen get there if not at first mixing
with the wort?  Must there not first be oxygen ingress before you have the
advanced reactions that you speak of?  If so, is it not really most
important to reduce oxygen ingress when the wort is most susceptible?  My
point was that perhaps at this near boiling stage, oxygen ingress is at
it's lowest and quite frankly if you've mishandled your mash or your
lauter, the lesser amount of oxygen pick up at near boiling temperatures
isn't really going to matter as much as minimizing it when the wort is most
susceptible.  As a result, I think the question is relevant.

Should homebrewers worry about HSA?  It depends upon what type of brewer
you are.  It's not a positive contribution (over time) so it should be
minimized if at all possible. Can staling reactions be eliminated if you
don't splash your near boiling hot wort?  No they can't.  Going all the way
back to DeClerck's work you will find that it will always be there.  You
can only hope to minimize it but not eliminate it. Should a newbie really
be worried about HSA if they are following CP's instructions?  Probably not
because they are probably going to drink that beer before the severe
staling occurs.  There is a reason for CP getting away with this advice for
years and for being able to build interest in the hobby.

Doug also contended that the oxygen does not have to be dissolved in the
wort in order for the HSA to occur.  Perhaps I'm missing something but I
don't understand how oxygen can react with wort without somehow being mixed
or dissolved into the wort.

Doug also contends that A-B's process is probably irrelevant to homebrewers
process due to grist composition.  Perhaps.  However, I do not see that the
discussion is irrelevant.  I agree that grist composition probably has
something to do with staling compounds as well.  Perhaps this has to do
with oxidation during the malting / kilning process.  Again, the question
about oxygen ingress is important, but perhaps should be extended to this
stage of malt production as well as wort production.

I asked George Fix for his reaction to my question and he responded
privately to me.  He no longer subscribes to the HBD.  I don't know why but
he doesn't.  Here's George's take on the A-B issue and HSA.  While he
agrees with the conventional wisdom on this issue, he makes a good point
that I have capitalized in his response.

>AB has for a long time the philosphy that DMS  is a serious off-flavor in 
>beer. As I understand it they see their victory over the once vaulted 
>Milwaukee brewers as one that in part is a win for clean beer over the 
>sulfury midwestern taste. A  strong case can be made from this point,
>since it appears that a significant proportion of the public does not
>perceive DMS with favor.  This includes, I am told, prominent members of
>the Bush family, as well as alas,,, my wife!  They can pick it up at its
>threshold, and have a negative view when it is perceived.  

>The AB process is clearly an efficient way of removing DMS.  However, I
>feel, homebrewers should be careful about jumping to conclusions.  The
>point is, that they are not argueing that oxidation at this stage is not
>important because yeast will consume it.  Quite the contrary, giving the
>exponential rate of increase of the redox reactions with temperature, any
>oxygen consumed at this point will quickly bind up with malt constituets. 
>THE POINT THAT I FEEL AB IS MAKING, IS THAT THEY HAVE ENGINEERED THE
>PROCESS TO MINIMIZE THE TOTAL OXYGEN UPTAKE.  Thus, I do not feel in any
>way their process can be compared to the homebrew process of pouring hot
>wort through a strainer.  If I had to guess, I would say that Steve
>(Michalak) would have a very negative opinion of that procedure, however,
>you should clearly get his opinion on this matter. BTW give my regards
>when you talk to him. He was clearly the hit of MCAB II ! 
 
I also believe that the subject of HSA is important but I believe that it
is dependent on the total oxygen uptake along with how long that beer is
going to be kept.  Getting back to my original post, I asked if anyone had
information on oxygen ingress at different stages of the wort production
process.  My question still stands.  I will always advise new brewers to
avoid aerating hot wort if possible.  I will not however tell them that if
they use CP's pouring method that they will make bad beer. Charlie was able
to get away with this advice, in my opinion, because the staling that we so
much fear is not immediate but comes with time.  If that beer is not
sitting around for a long time, then HSA is probably not an issue.

For discussion here are what I believe the HSA argument main points should
be.

1. There is oxygen ingress at all stages of wort development.  This likely
may be extended to the prior malting process as well.
2. There is less oxygen uptake at higher temperatures.
3. The HSA redox reactions occur more rapidly at higher temperatures.
4. The ability to minimize oxygen uptake is dependent not only upon
technique but also by the equipment that you employ.
5. Staling of beer due to HSA is unavoidable.  It is, too some degree,
present in all beers.
6. The quicker you drink your beer the less likely you will probably note
the staling from these factors.  The longer you hold your beer, the more
likely that you will encounter staling from these factors.
7. What of it???  What are the implications for you the brewer, realizing
that there are many of us out here, experienced homebrewer, professional,
newbie, etc.

I have brewed in a brewpub before.  The lautering and whirlpooling
processes alone must be introducing a hell of a lot of oxygen. The beer
turned our alright.  A-B's process introduces much air at near boiling
temperatures even though they may have minimized uptake in the earlier
stages.  The beer, though it may not be your style, turns out alright. I've
seen homebrewers abuse their mash and wort with ill conceived brewhouse
design and processes, decoction mashing, multiple step mashing, etc. If
sanitary practices are upheld, the beer mostly turns out fine.  I've tasted
many beers that have been made using CP's pour through the strainer method.
 Many of those, including my first 5 or 6 batches (years ago) turned out
fine.  Some do not turn out OK, but for other reasons other than HSA (e.g.
bad yeast, sanitary practices, underpitching, etc.).  On the other hand,
I've tasted brewpub beers, A-B products and homebrew products that were
stale.  Too my recollection, all of them were long in the tooth.

I've never been a fan of the RDWHAH mantra.  In regard to HSA though, I'd
have to advise newbies not to worry too much about it.  In fine tuning
their processes, they can worry about this later.  However, whether you are
taking preventive steps or not, it is important to understand the issues
behind the argument.


John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO










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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:03:18
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: picnic cooler lauter tuns

Bill <rwfishbu at home.com> asks about picnic cooler lauter tuns, and is
worried about the height of the spigot above the bottom of the cooler.

The siphon arrangement others recommend will work but make sure the piping
is completely filled with water before adding the grain.  If not, air in
the trapped portion of the piping/siphon will reduce the flow and *might*
cause HSA.  It's much easier to get the air out before the grain is added.

c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:20:10 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Water Chemistry

Greetings, brewers!

I've been brewing all-grain for 4 years now, over 700 gallons so far,
and I'm just now starting to look into Water Chemistry (pH and all that
stuff). What brings up the subject is that I'm interested in brewing a
Bohemian Pilsner and decided to check with my local water provider to
see how close my water would be, or if I should start with distilled
water and add minerals to match the Pilsen water profile. I asked for a
water analysis, specifically the ppm for Calcium(Ca), Magnesium(Mg),
Sodium(Na), Sulfate(SO4), Chloride(Cl), and Carbonate(CO3), along with
the pH. Here is what I received on Friday:

pH: 7.06
Na: 5.8
SO4: 6.7
Cl: 13
Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3): 147
Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3): 41.7

Now despite the fact that I did actually once upon a time take a real
college Chemistry course, I am not a Chemist nor do I play one in any
other life. However, I figured that 147 parts of Calcium Carbonate must
contain 147 parts of Calcium and 147 parts of Carbonate, and likewise
for the Magnesium. This would give my water the following profile:

pH: 7.06
Ca: 147
Mg: 41.7
Na: 5.8
SO4: 6.7
Cl: 13
CO3: 188.7

One more point: When I put these figures into Promash for my default
water profile, it sets the pH at 8.34, and won't let me change it.
However, the water analysis report does say 'pH (On Site), implying that
it can be different on down the line. How do I know which pH figure is
correct?

Is it really this simple, or am I missing something?

2nd question: Is bottled distilled water sanitary? (with the bottle lip
flamed)
Could I use it to store yeast under? Right now, I have a yeast bank of
12 varieties, stored on agar slants (purchased ready to innoculate) at
35F. I just drop the last drop from a smak-pak or vial into a slant, let
set for 3 or 4 days at room temp (burp it daily) and store. I have some
that are over 3 years old that still culture up just like they did when
new. Of course, I don't have a 'scope or anything, I just rely on the
step-up process and the resulting beer flavor to tell me if the yeast is
still OK. But I've read/heard that slants don't last that long without
mutating or dying out. Is it better to store under distilled water? If I
just replaced 4 varieties per year so that none were more than 3 years
old would that be a better solution? Or do I need to be concerned about
it at all?

I'm not looking to change my procedures or to add complexity - I'm just
trying to determine whether or not I'm asking for a batch of bad beer by
using 3 year old slants.

TIA for your help.

Steve Jones
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, TN
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew





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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:54:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Oxygen and hot wort...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your laaaaahhhhhhgaaaaaahhhh....

Years ago, I had heard that HSA occurs at the interface of the wort and
the air, and this is why dissolution of O2 in the beer - virtually
impossible in hot wort - is not a consideration. In this explanation, it
was important to keep the exposed surface area to a minimum and covered
with steam (like in your typical boil kettle), and to avoid acts which
increase the exposed surface area (such as splashing).

I don't recall who explained this to me in this way, but rest
assured: they likely had a Really Big Brain [tm]. Or maybe it came to me
in a dream...

(Hmmm - this kinda flies in the face of AB's aeration tower thingy,
though.)

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:24:19 -0500
From: kiewel at mail.chem.tamu.edu (Kurt Kiewel)
Subject: Advertising on the HBD; Suggested book for the new brewer

HBDers,

I think that Lynn O'Conner has made very generous and informative
submissions to the HBD, particularly her independent out of pocket lab
testing of commercial liquid yeast.  These are studies that most of us
could not do and we all benefited from her expense.

However, I think that she should not be allowed to advertise her products
in an unsolicited fashion on the HBD.  She clearly should be able to defend
herself and her reputation against any statements on the HBD but she should
not advertise a new shipment of bottles in this forum.

I am not affiliated with any homebrew store and have never ordered anything
from Lynn.  I may consider buying items from her in the future because I
choose to support people and business that make substantial contributions
to the HBD.

- ----------------------------

Regarding The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing, instead of saying bad things
about Charlie P.'s book I would like to recommend a different book for the
new brewer:

"Fearless Brewing: The Beer Maker's Bible" by Brian Kunath.

I happened to notice it at bookstore on a discount table and couldn't
believe how well written was.  There are pictures of almost every thing and
every process.  Nothing takes the fear out of the process for the new
brewer more than lots of pictures.

Not only is it good for the new brewer, it's also good for when guests come
over and have questions about homebrewing.  You can just open the book and
talk them through the pictures. Then you can lend it to them because
they'll surely want to give brewing a try themselves.

Kurt Kiewel
Soon to be FMHing in College Station, TX




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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:21:27 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: A home-malting system page

For those interested:

I just completed my home-malting system page, with pictures and
descriptions of the equipment I have been using to malt rye, oats,
buckwheat, and soon ( I hope) barley.  It is at:

http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/maltsystem.html

This page will NOT tell you how to malt grain; there's lots of info about
malting available on the Web elsewhere.

I have been making beer this year with ever-increasing percentages of rye,
oats and buckwheat, and my next batch will be the completely barley-free
'RyeBuckOat Ale #1'.  Why, you ask?  Because I can!

Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:44:33 -0400
From: Seth Goodman <sethgoodman at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Topsfield Fair Homebrew Competition - Entries Due Now!

Last Reminder:

The North Shore Brewers and the Topsfield Fair announce the 2000 Topsfield 
Fair Homebrew Competition,
to be held on Saturday, September 9, 2000 at the Topsfield Fairgrounds, 
Topsfield, Mass.

Entries are due by September 2, 2000.

There are numerous drop-off locations in the Greater Boston Area.  Entries 
can also be dropped off at the Topsfield Fairgrounds,  August 29th - 
September 1st, from 6 - 8 PM,  in the Coolidge Building, or shipped to us 
by the shipping service of your choice.

This year we've got a web site with the relevant information, including 
competition rules, entry form, and bottle labels, located at:

http://hbd.org/northshore/Topsfair.html

At the same URL is a link for *on-line* judge and steward sign-up.  We're 
still seeking judges and stewards - please sign up now!

Thanks, and good luck in the competition!

Seth Goodman

Vice-President, North Shore Brewers



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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:18:14 -0800
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolke at alaska.net>
Subject: AHA Membership Renewal/Redemption

The renewal notice envelope came with somebody else's name at my
address.  I thought typical AHA, they even screw up their membership
data base as well as publishing progressively more useless Zymurgy's.
It was ready to tip into the trash can when low and behold, the
September/October issue arrived.  Call me easily impressed, but out came
the checkbook.  Made me think of the good old days when Charlie Papazian
was a functioning member of the AHA.         Good job Ray!

Fred Nolke,   Anchorage



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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:31:06 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Sterile water storage method for yeast, home roasting

G'day All

Well you lot have have flooded my poor 'puter with request on my yeast
storage method.  I don't mind, although you are putting behind my brew room
construction, and taipan training for those idiots in the rainforrest
(survivor isn't it). I keep forgetting that there are always newies to the
HBD that haven't done this thing before and are willing to learn.  The only
thing is I dont want to put Wyeast, Whitelabs (or Petes Yeast in Aus)
tottally out of business.

What I thought I would do is not totally take up the bandwidth in one go
(how unusual) but break it up over the week so people can digest what its
all about.
So first the theory.  I have used every method out there to store my yeast.
Each has its disadvantages but probably the biggest one I have found is the
relevant short storage period you can keep your yeast.  Even freezing it
doesn't guarantee a high morality rate.  The other thing i hated was no
matter what method i used, I had this agonising wait restarting the bastard
up, wonder if it was contaminated, was it heathy, will it be alright.

Now what I wanted was simple.  I wanted to store all the yeast cultures I
would ever need (about twenty at the moment).  That way I could brew
whatever style that turned me on. But I also wanted certainity that the
culture would fire up clean.  And because I have soooo many cultures, I
wanted the longest period of time between recultures.  To me sterile water
storage was the answer.

Now enough talking rubbish.  What its all about.  Its really quite simple.
Yeast itself is actually quite a tough little bugger.  The organism is quite
adapted to going long periods without the right environment (food, temp
etc).  In fact yeast has the great ability to basically just "go to sleep".
So if you transfer vigerous healthy young cells and put them in an
environment that there is absolutely nothing for them (in this case sterile
water), they will just go dormant.  And thats how this method works.  very
healthy yeast colonies are transferred to test tubes of sterile water.  And
if you store these in a fridge they will live, or sleep for years.

Now note the word sterile.  This is not sanitised, it is sterile. If you
allow other organisms in the test tube, there is every likehood that they
feed on your yeast.

I can heard the cries from a lot of you now.  I cant do this.  But the truth
is you can, and its easier than you think.  I will go thru what you need and
how to do it on the HBD over the next week.  Its not all that difficult but
there is alot to get thru.  Now I am typing this slowly as i know a lot of
you read slowly, but you dont need a degree to do this, just attention to
detail.

As for home roasting, well I will cover that after I deal with yeast
ranching.  I just had a thought, now I have made known I yeast ranch, I will
have to step up security, this could start a spat of yeast duffing next
(that'll have the yanks guessing)

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh one last thing (I'm making a habit of this - might become my trademark)
You lot over there in the States must be whimps, (i pity any of the
survivors out there).  All this talk about spreading the spent grain and
hops makes me wonder how tough your grass and animals (come to think of it
people) are over there.

'oh dont put in on the grass it will kill it", or the 'the hops will kill
the dog', or 'it smells awful after a day'.  Shit I just dump the lot in the
back yard near the "future brew room".  If Elle isn't there to roll arround
in it, then I just give it a kick arround and let mother nature do the rest.
The birds, rats and other munchies get rid of it within a few days.  And
whats left the grass covers in a week.  As for the hops, well Rumpole my
german shephard hasn't dropped dead yet, (now if SWMBO could eat a small
amount to keep her out of my hair that would be better).  As for it killing
cats, well I still have the feral bastards running round the place, and I
have spent hops all over the place.  Mind you an asprin in milk seems to be

far more effective, or a 303 up the bum.

Watch now, I'll have every tree loving cat lover on my back now.  Thats all
right, ther's a nice waterhole nearby they can have a swim at.





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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:44:17 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: West Australian brew club.

I'm looking for a brew club in Perth Western Australia.

As this wont be of interest to most of the hbd private e-mail would be best.

If you are interested in finding what I find out e-mail me and I will sent
you a condensed version of the replies.

Edward



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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 06:33:12 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Rennerian Offset Coordinates?

Ok, does anyone have the offset coordinates for 00, 00 Rennerian from the 
equatorial/prime meridian, standard global coordinates?  Shall we call it 
the Rennerian Offset Constant?  
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dryw Blanchard <dryw9680 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bleach and Glass

I know that this subject was covered recently, but
given my own set of circumstances, I can't help but
bring it up again.  I recently dusted off my equipment
and started brewing now that the summer is about to
come to an end.  I brought my carboys out of storage. 
They've been there for 3 months, and they were stored
full of water and bleach solution.  When I emptied the
carboys, I noticed that the bottom and walls
(primarily the bottom) looked like they were pitted. 
I washed the carboys and rinsed them, but it was still
there.  I can only assume that it is not pitted.  The
only thing that I put in the carboys was tap water and
household bleach.  I've not decided to stop that
practice and only store them full of water and
iodophor.  Has anyone else had this same problem?

Dryw Blancahrd
Chicken Sh*t Homebrew

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:39:51 -0500
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: choose clubs carefully

Jeff Kenton encourages new homebrewers to join a club.  I agree--if the club
is anything like the one he describes.   It takes a lot of energy and
leadership to keep a club as vital as the one Jeff describes.  Finding new
members, designing activities that appeal to many levels of brewing, staying
in touch with the professional brewing community, setting meeting times to
accommodate busy work schedules, all of this is rewarding but tough work.
Unfortunately, some clubs lose their energy over the years.   Tell-tale
signs:  central activity at monthly meetings appears to be the downing of
lots of commercial beer, same few or no members bring homebrew to be
evaluated, few or no newish members.  Hanging around a such club is a good
way for new homebrewers to lose interest in the hobby very quickly. 

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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