---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  kettle fitting (Bjoern.THEGEBY)
  Sterile water yeast storage ("Graham Sanders")
  re: brewing books ("Alan McKay")
  Tips on visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 3) ("Alan McKay")
  dual-purpose fridge (fridgeguy)
  Who really cares?, hops & compost, yeast storage ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Hops & Dogs (AJ)
  Spent Grain Bread ("Bob Mori")
  welding (Marc Sedam)
  cheap keg parts (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Flaked vs. Whole Rice (Jeff Renner)
  High F.G. Blues ("Schultz, Steven W SBCCOM")
  Tips on visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 4) ("Alan McKay")
  re:dual purpose fridge. Brewer's clothing requirements. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: st. pat's ("patrick finerty jr.")
  On Soapbox (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re: wort aeration / NCl3 (Lou.Heavner)
  darrell and too much volume, charlie p, munich and alt, CAP artic ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Counter-Flow Cooling Efficiency ("Peter Zien")
  Kyle Druey? ("Eric Fouch")
  feel the love (Jim Liddil)
  Specs & IBU's / surplus PID controllers ("Louis K. Bonham")
  "Electric Stove" or "A Watched Pot Never Boils" (Matthew Comstock)
  My .02$ (Chris Cooper)
  Lautering: Wort Does Not Flow Uphill (John Palmer)
  woodruff syrup is now available at a reasonable price! ("Donald D. Lake")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:52:35 +0200
From: Bjoern.THEGEBY at cec.eu.int
Subject: kettle fitting

I am building a converted keg kettle and wonder about the HBD opinion on the
internal fitting. My preference would be a bent copper tube ending in 
a SS Choreboy. I mainly use hop plugs and brew English low to medium 
gravity beers. 

Should I worry about clogging and, if the design is OK, should I aim 
at the centre of the bottom or at an off-centre position to avoid the break?

Bjorn Thegeby

Rennerian, Schmennerian, five miles from Lembeek



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:21:57 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Sterile water yeast storage

G'day All

One of the reasons I like this method of storage is the certainity of
knowing you have a healthy yeast culture to pitch well in advance.  I am
doing a Heffe-weissen this weekend with a twist.  Try 38 litre batch 3,7 kg
Pilsner malt and 2.7 kg of Plain white flour.  (oh I can hear the heathen
cries now. - it can be done .  Come to think of it a lot of young SWMBO said
that to me as well in my younger days).  Anyway pulled out my 18 month old
culture Sunday, and know Tuesday knight I have just doubled up my starter to
600ml.  Going like me in my younger days.

This post I want to show how easy the system is to use.  Know lets assume
you
want to brew a beer (a bit silly - buts thats me all over)

There you have your yeast in testtubes or vials in the fridge.  Now you
decide yes I must brew a Heff next.  Now this takes a little planning but
nothing serious.  So about 7 days before hand you go to the fridge and get
the right test tube of yeast culture.  Using good sterile techniques (will
explain in the other posts), you lift a tiny-winy bit of liquid from the
test tube. (resealing it properly immediately).  You then quickly streak
(no.-
not doing this naked although it wouldn't hurt) a petre-dish (agar plate).
In two days times you'll see lots of little colonies all growing happily.
(oh the test tubes back in the fridge)

When they get to a good size , you lift two good match heads full and put
them into a 300ml starter.  Give it lots of airation (I put it in a plastic
softdrink bottle and every six hours, or when i passing, I squeeze out the
air in the bottle a couple of time and let fresh air in and give it a good
shake.) Within 24 hours you shoud have activity,  As soon as it shows this
double up the starter. and double up as often as you like.

so for me its
Saturday- streak plate
Monday- check plate, restreak if necessary or if really going seed a 300ml
starter
next day- transfer to 300ml starter if not done already
next day - 600ml starter
and to the size you need.
When to the right size cool down in a fridge for the brew session.

Now what happens every two years.  Well its time to check and reculture the
buggers.  So Its off to the Vet (still cant convince him to put down SWMBO,
and he hides the "green dream" so I can't walk out with it)
but I do pick up a good all purpose antibiotic tablet.  I make up Agar
Plates with it and culture all the stock.  You look for nice clean uniform
colonies and if they are ok you lift the COLONIES ONLY and transfer them to
sterile water.  I like to transfer about 15 colonies to reduce the risk of
mutation.  I look for nice uniform 'Average size colonies, you know not too
big, not too small, just right (a certain breakfast cerial company has a lot
to answer for) There you have it for the next two years.  Now in the early
days
i keep the old colonies in case I got a bad batch with my 'new mother
colonies'.  But this hasn't happened yet so i dont bother anymore.

Now that sounds simple (i hope).  So what do we need to be able to do this.

Here's the list of equipment you will need.
1. An Autoclav.  Oh dear the local hospital hasn't had a garage sale yet.
No worries get a good sized pressure cooker. Does the same job. (or near
enough for this anyway)
2. Petre-dishes - about 6
3. Vials, test tubes or other container that can get sealed.
Note : 2 and 3 must be able to be autoclaved or steamed, so plastic is out
of the question.
4. A bit of stainless steel wire that is used for tranferring yeast . Put a
loop at the end
5. Any sort of burner
6. Some Agar
7. Some DME
8. Bleach or any good disaffectant
9.  Although not necessary a test tube rack is handy as well. Saves looking
thru a jar of test tubes looking for the right one.

Not too bad is it.  Next I'll go thru how to prepare your test tubes and
petre dishes

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh the cats lovers are after me. But I making some peace offerings for all
those poor people who got upset.  One cat pelt makes a handy wallet or
purse. I can even put a little sound box in in that mewows when you open it.




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:55:12 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: re: brewing books

Stephen Ross of Paddock Wood says :

> A more general book with more brewing information is _The Complete
> Handbook of Brewing_ by Miller.  Fairly good starting point. Miller's
> style is dryer than Papazian's.

Agreed, except that you may want to go for Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide,
which is a newer edition of the above mentioned book.  (1996, IIRC)

Most of the books being talked about so far are reviewed in the "Reviews"
section of my homepage. Go to http://www.bodensatz.com/, then "Homebrew"
then "Reviews".

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
"It must be light, because our Brewmaster says that the
 colour is a sign of Quality: The lighter a K[CENSORED]lsch, the
 better it tastes.  It must be light, because a lighter
 beer runs better over the tongue.  And it must be
 tastey, such that all henceforth will say :
 'Fr[CENSORED]h tastes really yummy'
"
  - PJ Fr[CENSORED]h (http://www.frueh.de/)

http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html









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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:59:54 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Tips on visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 3)

=======
KUECHE / CULINARY
=======

Try the Reibkuchen(*) right in front of the Haupbahnhof at the
foot of the Dom.  If you like the German potato pancakes
made with grated potato, this is reportedly the best place in the
city to get them, and they are only "take-out" in your hand.  It's
just a little stand perhaps 2 to 2.5 meters in diameter (7 to 9 feet).

We compared them to those in a couple of well-known
Brauhaeser(**) and though all were very good, consensus
was that these were the best.

We ate in at least 7 or 8 of the Brauhaeuser, and drank in a good
4 or 5 more than that, and all had great beer (of course) and
very good to extremely excellent food in all cases, too.
And in most cases very reasonably priced, too.  Especially
with current exchange rates to the Euro!

Stay tuned for more detailed reports on some more of the
Brauhaeuser ...

cheers,
 -Alan

(*) "RIBE-kookin" - "ribe" as in "vibe" and "kook"
rhymes with a derogatory word for an oriental person.
Sorry, but went through the whole alphabet and couldn't
come up with a better rhyme in English.

(**) the plural of "Brauhaus" is "Brauhaeuser", but the HBD
forbids me to spell it properly where the "aeu" is actually
"ae" where the "a" has an Umlaut.  In Cologne a
"Brauhaus" does not necessarily brew beer, but rather
can be positively traced to having a brewing history.
In Cologne there are over 200 buildings which can
positively trace such a history.  One I ate in had a brewing
history of over 700 years, but it was only the 2nd oldest.
Didn't get a chance to make the oldest, as there is
simply so many and two weeks wasn't enough.




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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 08:01:29 -0400
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: dual-purpose fridge

Greetings folks,

 In HBD #3415, Steve asks about using a side-by-side fridge for two
purposes, with the freezer side used for lagering and fridge side for
serving.

 Domestic fridge/freezers use a single compressor, with the evaporator
in or near the freezer compartment. The temperature controller for the
freezer section starts and stops the compressor to maintain freezer 
setpoint temperature. The fridge compartment control is actually
linked to an air shutter and/or fan to control how much of the cold
freezer air reaches the fridge compartment. The two controls will
interact, so set the freezer first, then the fridge. Repeat until both
sections hold the desired temp. Controller temperature ranges differ
from model to model, but expect to replace the controller if you wish
to run the freezer section at lagering temperature.

 Frost-free fridges (including side-by-sides) periodically stop the
compressor and energize heaters to melt any ice accumulation on the
evaporator. This may happen from 4-8 times per day, depending on the
particular model. Each defrost cycle usually lasts from 20 minutes to
an hour.

 Frost-free fridges will lose their ability to control humidity if the
freezer section is controlled at above-freezing temperatures. The
defrost timer should be bypassed to eliminate the defrost cycle, since
it serves no purpose at above-freezing temperatures. A dessicant such
as Damp-Rid or similar might help keep the cabinet dry.

 A cold plate or stainless coil might be an attractive alternative to
the above. If the freezer section is kept at normal temp (10 degF or
so) and the fridge side at lagering temp, the fridge will stay dry. A
cold plate placed in the fridge side would allow cold beer to be
served, with the keg and CO2 outside the fridge. An added benefit is
more space in the fridge! If the freezer space isn't needed, simply
use a small dorm or apartment sized fridge, set at lagering temp. 

 Cold plates aren't cheap, but used ones are sometimes available. A
new single-circuit plate will likely cost about $100. Stainless coils
are a little cheaper. YMMV

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - Fridgeguy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net


- --
Is your email secure? http://www.pop3now.com
(c) 1998-2000 secureFront Technologies, Inc. All rights reserved.



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:22:47 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Who really cares?, hops & compost, yeast storage

Some complain that Lynn uses the Digest as advertisement, maybe, maybe
not. Maybe it's allowed to slip through because from time to time Lynn does
post some interesting info; the results of independent analysis of yeast
cell counts, and the report of brewing methods from the Czech republic.
This is then set aside when we see...
> p.s.  Coincidentally, I got 4 pallets of the 6.3 oz clear glass, very
> heavy-duty
> barleywine bottles (not green champagne bottles) this morning. 
  Excuse me, but I thought beer should be in brown bottles to prevent
skunking. At least green bottles afford a small bit of protection.
   On mis-shipped items; if you receive the improper product, just stop
payment on your credit card. When the charge-back comes I bet you
get a speedy resolution to the problem. Then if the product is valuable
enough a UPS call-tag can be issued so the return wouldn't cost you a
cent .  Simple enough and usually a toll free call.

 ....................................
On placing spent hops on the compost heap; I've done this and found
that the hops stop the compost action temporarily, or perhaps it is
the lactic acid that comes from the grain that is the culprit, maybe that's
what is burning out the lawn also. I still put
the grains and kettle spooge on the compost, where else to dump them?
but each time I notice a slowing of the digestive action. Not a big deal
since I have more compost than I can use anyway. 

 ....................................
On yeast storage in sterile water. The method I've read about involves
storing only a tiny bit of yeast, a pico liter in 10 ml water.
Bill Pierce mentions:
>>During this time the overall
viability of the yeast remains quite high, until a point when the yeast
commit "mass suicide" and all die within a matter of days.<<
  This sudden autolysis could come from the higher concentration
of yeast cells. I read somewhere, maybe here, that the rate of autolysis
is proportional to the concentration of cells. I think it was Jim Liddil
made
some reports on the water storage method, maybe he will notice this
and make a comment.

N.P. (Del) Lansing


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:44:00 -0400
From: AJ <email at domain.com>
Subject: Hops & Dogs

J. Marvin Campbell's post reminded me that some of herbals sold at pet
stores for dogs contain hops as one of the ingredients.

A.J.



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 06:48:23 -0700
From: "Bob Mori" <bob.mori at poboxes.com>
Subject: Spent Grain Bread

Rick Foote wrote that he used some of his spent grain to make spent grain
bread. Where can I find a recipe for spent grain bread.

Bob Mori
bob.mori at poboxes.com



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:01:34 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: welding

This comes up now and again on the forum, but I just saw a
product in Home Depot called "Weld All" or something like
that.  It claims to be able to bond metals together and
withstand heat up to 600F.  Now, I'm sure TIG welding is the
best option to put a drainplug in my kettle, but I'm not a
welder and shipping to John Palmer is too expensive.  LOL.
Has anyone used this product?  Success?  Failure?  What
about use with different metals (stainless to brass).

 -Marc, the wild mash hopper



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:15:01 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: cheap keg parts

Marvin talks about wanting to pay more for keg parts if they
were made better.  The answer is to search the web for what
you want, and not buy stuff from a homebrew supplier who's
looking (correctly) for the cheapest stuff.

As with most/all commodity products, you outsource
production to a location where the cost of labor is
cheapest.  Buy American?  Why should America produce parts
that can only reasonably be sold with extraordinarily low
margins?  Low margins=low profits.  Combined with the high
cost of labor in the US, it means that companies can't make
*any* money producing this stuff here.  By outsourcing you
get profits to US companies which keeps them in business as
well as increasing the standard of living in the exporting
country.  In general (and please don't beat me over the head
with specifics--I know they exist, but I'm looking at this
on a large scale)--the US produces what we do best
(innovative products) and Korea does what it does best
(produce "stuff" via large, relatively cheap labor force).
Nobody's back is being broken, and the quality of the
product has nothing to do with where it's produced, rather
it has everything to do with what quality the COMPANY wants
to sell.  This country is too expensive to produce anything
other then high-end, high-margin products.  And we should be
grateful for it.  It means more money and higher wages for
all.

Oh yes.  We love mash hopping.  And so do many of you, from
the private emails I've received.  Join the revolution.
Beer is good.  Come to the beer.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:01:23 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Flaked vs. Whole Rice

In Homebrew Digest #3411 (August 24, 2000), "O'mahoney, Larry (LLOM)"
<LLOM at chevron.com> asked
>
>Anyone know the equivalence between flaked rice and whole rice in a recipe?

Still catching up, so someone may have already answered this.

There's no reason to think that they should be anything but equivalent.
Apparently you had no trouble getting the cooked rice stirred in to the
mash, but if you had coarsely ground the rice and added added a couple of
ounces of crushed malt to it, then rested it 20 minutes at ~153F before
boiling it, you would have performed a traditional cereal mash.  This
results in a nicely liquid cooked cereal that mixes nicely with the main
mash.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:39:50 -0400
From: "Schultz, Steven W SBCCOM" <steven.schultz at SBCCOM.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: High F.G. Blues

Made a partial-mash barely wine, about 1.95 OG, using 1056 yeast from a
starter, and an expected FG of 1.025-ish.  When fermentation slowed down, I
racked to a secondary and dropped a hydrometer into the carboy so I could
see my gravity whenever I wished.  The fermentation seems to have stopped at
1.040, so last night I dropped in a packet of dry champagne yeast, and this
morning a packet of Nottingham dry yeast.  But as the wort is beginning to
clear, and the air lock not moving, I think that the fermentation is
finished, and FG is going to be approx. 1.040.  I had a high mash temp and
used a cara-pils, but even that should not cause the FG to be this high,
should it?  Any ideas?  TIA.

Steve Schultz
Abingdon, MD  


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:31:20 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Tips on visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 4)

========
BREWING
========

If you can speak decent German, you can almost definitely scam
yourself a day of brewing at one of the smaller Koelsch places,
or at one of the many Boennsch places around the city.  The
Weiss Braeu and Hellers at Barbarossaplatz and even Malzmuhle
on the Heumarkt (on the other side of the U-Bahn platform
from the main Heumarkt) and Paeffgen on Friesenplatz (they
don't brew at Paeffgen am Heumarkt, but the building does
have a very long brewing history) are small enough to be
very casual about this type of thing if you catch them
on the right day.  So you can finally say that you've
actually brewed a real Koelsch.

Once I get my notes better organised and start writing and
compiling, I'll also be releasing some secret tips from the
various breweries which allowed me to do this as long as
they themselves remained anonymous.  Because of this
as well I'm not even allowed to say how many breweries
I have visited until I have the participation of a certain
percentage of breweries  

Please stay tuned ... news may actually show up on my
website before it does here.  http://www.bodensatz.com/

cheers,
 -Alan



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:36:57 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: re:dual purpose fridge. Brewer's clothing requirements.

Steve asks about making a refrigerator that has two different
temperature domains.

Easiest way I know to do that is simply "mask off" some  shelf area in
the middle.  The chilling unit and the thermostat are in the top of
every one I've ever looked in.  If you cover a shelf half way down with
aluminum foil, cardboard, Time magazine, or whatever you've got at hand,
you'll "hide" the bottom part from both the thermostat and the cooling element.

You can get quite a temperature differential this way.... just keep
filling up more shelving area until you get the one you want.

Once you're comfortable with what you've got, then perhaps a more
permanent installation is in order..... that doesn't mean I'm suggesting
that you then actually READ the Time magazines.

Dr. Pivo

PS Pat wrote:
> At least update the 1970's folk pics. Are those plaid pants in the
> brewery? 


Aren't they a requirement?

Mine are bell bottoms, and I thought I had to wear them.

Not having to change into those should shorten my brew day.

Does this mean I can skip the platform shoes and the big wide paisley
tie as well?


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:52:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: st. pat's

i just can't take this sort of illogical blather. hit 'D' now if
you're as bored as me.

On August 25, 2000, Mea & Marvin wrote:

 > (On Soapbox)
[...]
 > The valve hardware was made in Korea.
[...]
 > Nothing against Korea, but when I'm looking to buy
 > quality machined metal of any kind, Korea just does
 > not come to mind. However, the next time I want
[...]
 > quality item that was not assembled by some poor
 > eleven-year-old slob making $20/week.
[...]
 > Call me madcap, call me what you will. I still sincerely

i think i'll just call you ignorant, racist and incapable of forming a
cogent argument, how's that? 

1) South Korea is known internationally for it's large industrial
   production centers. These include electronics, automobile
   production, and shipbuilding. don't believe me? here's my fav
   source of international info:
   http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ks.html

2) how can you say you have nothing against Korea when you refer to a
   child laborer as a 'slob'. right. 

3) in many industries, in many countries, manufactures produce various
   grades of hardware. the fact that this particular valve is from
   Korea is irrelevant. 

i could go on but i'm losing my will to live just proof reading this
crap. 

 -patrick in Toronto

- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		      http://www.finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:58:10 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: On Soapbox

From: Mea & Marvin <mcmc at loop.com>

>...I'm not the only one)
>would be more than willing to pay more for a higher
>quality item that was not assembled by some poor
>eleven-year-old slob making $20/week....
> 
>...Call me madcap, call me what you will. I still sincerely
>believe that buying Made-in-America is better for every-
>one involved, and I believe most people will agree when
>they realize that those low, low prices were artificially
>achieved by breaking the backs of less fortunate people in third-world
nations.
>Now I'm no liberal, and God knows I
>love laissez-faire capitalism, but making money off the
>misery of others just ain't right....
>(Off Soapbox)...

True, abusing the helpless children is not good, but do not be too quick to
jump all over another country's culture and economy.  I hear it all the time
by the bleeding heart liberals.  Take a stroll through the walkway of
history.  Your country's history.  In the past century, children were
produced in large families and were put to work picking cotton in the summer
at harvest time.  My father was one, and he never felt abused. 

Why do you think schools have the summer off, still today in many places?
So the teachers can cool their heels.  Well, yes today, but it was
originally started so the kids could pick cotton.

Sure, they could have been having more fun.  How about today, hmm, let's
see, browsing porn at the local library, maybe puffing on a few packs of
cigarettes, or maybe making some more kids in their spare time.  Hmm, a
little lathe work doesn't sound so bad after all. I mean, it wasn't all
abuse, and it wasn't any different in the good ole USA, so lighten up on a
country that may be trying and just going through some growing pains.

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:01:33 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: wort aeration / NCl3

     Arnaud VIEZ <aviez at teaser.fr> writes:

     But how do you aerate? I read about pouring the cool wort in the
     fermenter,
     shaking well the fermenter, etc... What is the best -and safer-
     method?

     There are probably many ways to aerate with minimal risk of
     contaminating the wort.

     1) use pure oxygen, nothing lives in pure oxygen.

     2) use an airpump (like for an aquarium) but put some kind of filter
     between the pump and the wort.  Probably just some sterile cotton
     would be fine, but you can always go the extra mile and put a sterile
     filter inline.

     3) open ferment, but cover the fermenter with something clean and dust
     free like foil or plastic wrap to keep airborne critters from dropping
     into the wort.  The headspace gas will mix with ambient air, but
     particulates are unlikely to migrate with the gas since diffusion, not
     convection is the mechanism.

     3a) same as above, but shake

     3b) same but add a magnetic stirbar and place on a magnetic stirplate.
     This may be difficult due to the weight of the fermenter without some
     extra structural support and due to the desire to keep the fermenter
     cool.

     3b) gotta a pump?  fermenter gotta a valve?  Recirculate.

     4) do what I usually do and pour back and forth (also called
     dropping).  You can get good exposure to air, but also get some
     exposure to particulates in the air.  Try to do this in a clean and
     still room if possible.  Not the kitchen full of dirty dishes or the
     kids' playroom while SHMBO is vaccuming.  I do this and take the extra
     step of spraying an aerosol disinfectant in the room 30 min before.
     Sometimes I'll drop with a siphon, instead of just pouring between
     buckets if there is a lot of sediment settled out that I would like to
     leave behind.

     and an anecdote on the stability of NCl3 per Matt's posts on chlorine
     and chloramine.  I worked in a plant making swimming pool chemicals
     once where NCL3 liquid could potentially be produced.  This was to be
     avoided since it is explosive.  Any stream that could possibly have
     NCl3 went to an open waste water ditch.  Liquid NCl3 is heavier than
     water and apparently some formed/collected in the ditch.  There was a
     galvanized grate, approximately 5 x 1 meters which covered the ditch
     and was sent flying atop a 2-story roof.  Two people had been standing
     on the grate 5 minutes earlier.  I always figured that was why you are
     not supposed to mix chlorine bleach with ammonia.

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX - seeing is believing



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:04:11 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: darrell and too much volume, charlie p, munich and alt, CAP artic

Darrell asks about too much lost volume in his mash/lauter.  I found 1/2"
diameter ceramic balls at the fancy cooking store used for holding pie
crusts down or something.  They sell them buy the bag or so for $6-8.  They
can be boiled - but are kinda expensive. They are heavy though and don't
float.  I only use them to weigh down dry hop bags in my kegs.  The
foodgrade spheres that someone mentioned sound better probably.

I have to admit that I no longer believe everything that Charlie wrote.  It
may have been the best info at the time, but things have advanced to a
point, as I have, that TNCJOHB is a bit incorrect in spots.  However, it was
the first thing that I bought even before my first beer kit.  In fact, I had
tasted one homebrew before buying this book and getting hooked and it
enabled me to get started and brew a reasonable beer and stay interested
enough to find out what does and what doesnt work and where things can be
tweaked.  For that start, and the info presented at the time (1995) I thank
Charlie.  It is still in my bookshelf, as is the following volume that he
wrote as are a few other texts and my HBD notebook and my own recipebooks. I
guess I do refer back to it to look up an old recipe or to see how my brews
have progressed over the years and many batches.

Just wanted to tell everyone that I got my alt brewed.  interesting thing
with the yeast.  first the brew is 100% light munich from weyermanns.  mash
temp pretty high at about 158-156F for 90 minutes.  OG=1.058.  hopped to mid
50s with only hallertauer at 60 minute addition.  total wort boil time was
90 minutes.  yeast was 1338 scaled up twice from the package.  after 12 hrs
the brew had 1/2" foam at the surface.  ferment temp was mid-60s. after 2
days the fermentation had slowed considerably (very very infrequent airlock
bubbles) and much yeast dropped out.  gravity was 1.020.  I'm gonna check
this in another few days to see where it ends up.  hopefully a bit lower as
some yeast is most likely in solution still.

has anyone else seen particularly fast ferments with 1338 European ale yeast
at pretty normal ale temps? Or did it drop prematurely from cold or
something else?

Also, thanks Jeff R. for the Zymurgy CAP article.  great stuff.  hopefully
I'll lager again this winter.

Thanks,
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY 


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:11:04 -0700
From: "Peter Zien" <PZ.JDZINC at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Counter-Flow Cooling Efficiency

My counter-flow wort chiller has a 1/2" inner diameter wort inflow/outflow
and usually cools 5 gallons of wort in 10 minutes to within 4 degrees F of
the source water.  With the summer source water temperature in the
mid-80F's, I employ an immersion chiller in an ice- bucket to pre-cool the
source water  prior to its flowing through the counter-flow chiller.  The
source water is run at high through the system, and the wort out-flow is
restricted some by clamp to increase the time the wort spends within the
cooling coils.  Although the temperature of the source water is in the
mid-50F's, the wort is only cooled to 76F.  Why is my wort cooling
efficiency so poor when employing an ice-bucket and immersion chiller to
pre-cool the source water?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Peter Zien





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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:22:15 EDT
From: "Eric Fouch" <airrick147 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Kyle Druey?

"I personally am sick and tired of her blatant advertising on the HBD
and would rather read Kyle Druey's dribble about Eric Fouch instead
of having her advertise  on this forum blatantly!"

Kyle Druey?  Who is Kyle Druey?
He's sounds pretty cool.
What has he been saying about me?


_________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:49:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: feel the love

To they guy that has a porblem with korean stuff.  Go to a welding shop or
compressed gas supply house and buy a "real" two stage medium or heavy
duty regulator.  Not the crappy weenie regulators that most all shops
sell.  You usually can get all the hardware as well. And when you start
talking about beer to a welder who knows what you may find out.    

Face it the hbd and the internet have way more to offer than charlie.  

and Ray Danials stated that material had to be delated from the "special"
issue.  Why didn't you get rid of prof surfeit and replace it with more
useful info?

And since we are advertizing I'm looking for employment in the
biotech/pharma industry in CT. :-)

Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:12:13 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: Specs & IBU's / surplus PID controllers 

Hi folks:

Dr. Pivo notes that those of you who might be interested in surplus specs
need to make sure that the spec will handle the UV range.  This is
absolutely correct.  Most "visible range" specs simply won't get down to the
needed 275nm range -- typically, you will need to get a "UV-Vis" spec that
has a deuterium light bulb for the UV wavelengths.  If you get a UV-Vis spec
in the surplus channels, make sure that the deuterium lamp works -- a
replacement bulb is often $250 or more.

In the same vein, for the IBU assay it is imperative that you use quartz
cuvettes -- plain glass and all of the cheap disposible cuvettes absorb too
much at 275nm and thus skew the readings.  Quartz cuvettes are not cheap
(list price is usually >$75 each), but if you shop around you can often find
good ones from Russia or Lithuania for much less. (Check LabX.)
- -------------------------------
IBU assays -- Brad Miller's description of the ASBC IBU assay makes it sound
like you should add 250ul of octyl alcohol to the beer-HCl-isooctane mix.
This is incorrect.  The procedure calls for a minute amount of octyl alcohol
to be introduced into the tip of the volumetric pipette used to measure 10ml
of chilled carbonated beer.  (This is easy to do.  Just draw up a bit of
octyl alcohol into the pipette and then let it run out -- the little bit
that stays in the tip of the pipette is enough -- and then use this pipette
to draw your 10ml sample of beer.)  Apparently, the octyl alcohol makes it
easier to get accurate measurements of the carbonated beer.
- ---------------------------
Speaking of surplus lab stuff, I recently scored a box of eight new and used
1/4 DIN (4"H x 4W x 8"D) self-tuning PID temperature controllers (West
2073's).  I only need a couple of these, and so anyone is interested in one
lemme know.

These units have LED displays of both setpoint and current readings, will
accept thermocouple, RTD, or linear voltage temp sensors, can be wired for
remote setpoint adjustment and/or RS-422 I/O, have two separate output
circuits, and lots of other goodies.  [Comparable units list for >$400.]
These are heavy duty industrial controllers that are perfect for a RIMS or
other precision mash temp control system.

I'm not so much looking to sell the extras as to trade them for other stuff
I need, like RTD sensors.  Similarly, as those of you who know me can
attest, for the right person I'm often willing to just let you have one for
next to nothing with the understanding that [begin mandolin background music
and cheesy Brando impersonation], "some day, and that day may never come, I
will call upon you to do me a personal service" [or  favor for the MCAB,
AHA, Dixie Cup, etc.].

All the best -- Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at hbd.org



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Electric Stove" or "A Watched Pot Never Boils"

Howdy folks.

Moved.  New electric stove has solid burners, not
coils.  It takes forever and a day to boil.  Too
long.  The Whirlpool "Appliance Diagnostic
System,
http://www.whirlpool.com/appdoctor/appdoctor.htmls(cool),
says my big enameled canner with the concentric
ribbed bottom is the problem: "You should always
use heavy gauge flat-bottomed cookware on solid
surface burners, otherwise the cookware will not
absorb the heat completely from the burner."  So
what's the plan, Stan?  I figure I'm going to
cram a bunch of aluminum foil under the bottom of
the canner to make an artificial flat bottom,
(Phil's Phake Phlat Bottom?).  Or new brewpot? 
Or King Cooker?  Any thoughts?

As an aside, when I first started brewing on an
electric stove, I tried the 'trivet' concept:
some clothes hanger wire placed under the pot to
lift it off the direct heat and prevent
scorching.  Same problem - year long boils.

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati


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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:50:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: My .02$

Greetings All!  I just have to weigh in with a few quick thoughts:

1.) I enjoy the good natured banter from down-under and if you don't 
remember the [page down] key.
2.) Charlie P. showed me the light, he was there in the kitchen when my
first batch went mostly into the carboy (I really should have paid more
attention to the pictures, especially the one showing the use of a BIG 
funnel!)  My skill and technique has advanced and my library has grown
but his book still has an honored spot on the shelf.
3.) I have used "The Joy" to prop up my carboy during racking but why not?
I mean I am very careful about what comes into contact with my "beer-n-process"
and there is narry a bit of plaid on the cover!
4.) We need to remember that this is a hobby and that most of us do it for the
joy of brewing or building equipment or the fellowship of other brewers or
for the just plain fun of it all.  
5.) Personal attacks are just not acceptable! I know I can always [page down]
but it just doesn't warrant the band-width!  Think before you post! Ask 
yourself if your post will help someone brew a better beer or at least provide
a chuckle or two.
6.) The AHA is the most visable organization supporting your choosen hobby,
support it and try to help make it better.  In my opinon it has started to
turn in the right direction applaud them for their successes and challenge 
them to greater heights in the future.  
7.) The heavy duty technical stuff belongs along side the "newbie" questions
the digest belongs to both ends of the spectrum.
8.) The number of "newbie" posts seems to be in decline, I can only hope
that we (the HBD family, and that's what we are in a cyber-space community)
haven't scared them off with some of the banalites that occasionally occupy
this space.  I prefer to think that the hobby has hit a bit of a slump. To 
correct this trend I challenge each of you to invite a non-brewing buddy to 
your next brew session (you might want to loan or gift them with a copy of 
Charlie's book if you really aren't using it any longer).  
9.) RDWHAHB is really a pretty good mantra for many of life's stuck sparges,
boil-overs, and "stupid brewer tricks".
10.) Kit beers, adjuncted kits, all grain, FWH, Mash Hops, Decoction, batch
sparges, are all ways of simply saying "I am a home-brewer!".  It is 
one big club with many branches.  If you haven't tried some of these approaches
then what are you sitting here reading this for? 

			"Get thyself to a Home-Brewery"

Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) 
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:21:47 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Lautering: Wort Does Not Flow Uphill

Background:
As many of you know, I have a document on my website called A Study of 
Fluid Flow thru a Grainbed using a Manifold-type Lautering System.
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/fluidflow.html

The lautering flow model that was derived from those experiments is written 
up in Appendix D of my book.
http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD.html

One of the unanswered questions from that previous study was: Will the 
grain beneath the manifold (ie. in a concave sankey keg) be lautered? The 
mathematical model says that it will. But intuition cast doubt on that, so 
today (Tuesday at lunchtime) I ran an experiment to find out for certain.

The Experiment:
I filled a 5 gallon glass fish tank with corncob media, the same stuff that 
I used before. The media is about the same size as the coarser particles of 
the malt grist. I used a two pipe manifold with a spacing of about 3.5 
inches. The copper pipes have slots about every half inch and are 15 inches 
long. The aquarium is about 10W x 20L x 11H. In other words, the aquarium 
was both too wide for the manifold (little bit), and too long for the 
manifold. But I thought the shortcomings would make interesting data. (And 
it did.)
The key to the experiment was that the manifold was suspended on stilts 
exactly 1 inch about the floor of the aquarium. The manifold slots faced 
down. The outflow tube went up over the side and down 3 feet to the ground, 
controlled by a plastic stopcock. The corn cob media was soaked for two 
days prior to the experiment to ensure that it was thoroughly wetted. (That 
and the fact that it kept getting dark outside before I could do the 
experiment.)

The aquarium has a glass bottom, so to test the flow from below the 
manifold I used a syringe with a long needle to place food coloring on the 
bottom without disturbing the grainbed. I placed/injected dye at three 
places on the bottom and two at the sides of the aquarium, and then started 
sparging.
I don't have any of the pictures up on the web yet to show you, but here is 
a summary of the results:
1. During a total lautering time of 45 minutes, the food coloring spots 
placed on the bottom were never washed away. They spread out about 3x, but 
were never rinsed.
2. During the same period, I was able to add two different sets of dye to 
the free water on top of the grainbed and watch it wash completely through. 
The dye front matched the previous experiment and the mathematical model 
(see Appendix D for illustrations) except for the fact that it never went 
below the bottom edge of the manifold.
3. From the side, where the length of the manifold was about 5 inches 
shorter than the aquarium, the dye pattern showed a parabolic shape as it 
approached the end of the manifold. The depth of the dye pattern at the far 
left wall, 5 inches from the end of the manifold, was about 1 inch into the 
top of the grainbed, and this dye penetration depth increased parabolically 
towards the right until it reached the 1 inch from the bottom depth of the 
manifold.

Conclusion:
1. While the flow model as I have previously described it remains largely 
valid, and manifolds remain an efficient way to collect wort, any grain 
that is beneath the manifold will not be lautered or sparged, and extract 
from that portion of grain will be lost.
2. This experiment sheds some light on the old question of whether the 
slots should face up or down. The results of this experiment show that the 
slots should face down, so that the manifold entry points are as close to 
the bottom of the tun as possible, because the wort will not flow up to the 
manifold.

I hope this experiment is useful to many of you. I have some book revisions 
to make!
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com



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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:46:27 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake at gdi.net>
Subject: woodruff syrup is now available at a reasonable price!

For those who have been waiting for a reliable, affordable source of
Woodruff/Waldmeister syrup for their beloved Berlinerweise, it's here.
Gina at German Deli.com has been working hard for months to find an
importer of this impossible-to-find item.

It has arrived in the states and has cleared customs.  The brand is
Gobber and the price is $4.49 for a 17.6 oz bottle.  Gina assured me
that it will now be a regular item and there is no need to hoard.  I
don't believe her so I'm going to stock up!  Please thank her for the
extraordinary effort when you place your order.

http://www.germandeli.com/GoebberSyrups.html
- --
Don Lake
Windermere Brewing Co.
a division of Lake Water Brewery
a wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc.



- --
************************************************************************

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       General Securities Principal * Registered Investment Advisor
            2699 Lee Road, Suite 410 * Winter Park, FL  32789
           Phone: 407-644-4998  800-768-8585 * Fax 407-644-1005
              E-mail:  dlake at amuni.com   http://www.amuni.com
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---