---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Uk Homebrew List (Tony Barnsley)
  Decoction for an Alt? (Alan McKay)
  more than text (Alan McKay)
  Visiting Madison (E.J.)" <eahrendt at visteon.com>
  Re: Otter malt and cloudy beer? (Jeff Renner)
  Mylar Bags ("Peter J. Calinski")
  An apology of sorts ("Warren White")
  U Fleku ("FatCat")
  Otter Malt, (Dave Burley)
  Re: Otter malt and cloudy beer? (Joel Plutchak)
  Multi-tier systems / graphics on HBD (David Harsh)
   (Weaver Joseph  39MDG/SGOAM)
   (Weaver Joseph  39MDG/SGOAM)
  Big Beer Toys ("Bill Coleman")
  RE: Champagne caps, Marris goes missing, PBW offer, and Diebels Alt ("Brian Lundeen")
  transport damage 'spurments. ("Dr. Pivo")
  RIMS wiring ("Sweeney, David")
  American Brewer gone too? (Jeff McNally)
  Re: How long before giving up on yeast? (Doug Hurst)
  Re: Munich Malt in Alt ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: Gravity contribution of starch ("Stephen Alexander")
  Alts/Munich/1338 ("Thomasson, John W")
  5th Annual Music City Brew-Off (Stephen Johnson)
  Comments on current issues (Althelion)
  Re: Gravity contribution of starch (Teutonic Brewer)
  Leechees and Longans (Rod Prather)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:16:30 +0100 
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Uk Homebrew List

Hello all,

Sorry for using up bandwidth with this trivial almost brewing related post.

To those of you that subscribe to the Uk Homebrew list (Digest version, Or
even the Ingest Version for that matter!). You may be wondering why it has
been so quiet for the last couple of days. Well quite simply for some reason
ALL SUBUSCRIBERS were unsubscribed. (must be something to do with that mind
blowing Ayinger yeast :> )

AGAIN!

If you didn't receive my personal mail yesterday then if you want to discuss
the uk homebrew scene (No discussion of HSA, RIMS, THT, ABC, BBC, etc
allowed ;> ) you will need to resubscribe

Send a mail to list at ale.co.uk with

join uk-homebrew

in the message body. To change to the digest version (one daily post) once
joined send a mail to list at ale.co.uk with

digest uk-homebrew

in the message body. I think (QDA) that you can include them in one post
together to subscribe directly to the digest i.e.

join uk-homebrew
digest uk-homebrew

IN THE MESSAGE BODY. Please, Please, Please do not delete the welcome mail
as it tells you how to unsubscribe. (Its quite simple really)

Please everyone send Text only messages to the list and turn off any
HTML options :>

To unsubscribe email list at ale.co.uk with 

leave uk-homebrew 

in the message body.

Or just wait a month or so and everyone will be deleted again :<
God I wish it was as reliable as the HBD!

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Reply To Aleman At brewmaster Dot demon Dot co Dot uk
ICQ 46254361


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:09:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Decoction for an Alt?


Hey folks,

I've only been about halfways following the Alt thread, but just wanted
to ask if anyone has actually confirmed that a decoction is actually still
used in Duesseldorf these days.  I know that all the Koelsch brewers 
I've talked to so far have long-since switched to infusion mashing.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --

                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: more than text 


Folks,

Since I've been one of the guys bugging the janitors about the limitations
of text-only, I figure I should also pony-up with a solution for those who
want it.

Though I currently do not have the facility to accomodate this on my
homepage below (because it is only a virtual server), I am currently in the
process of moving to my own co-located server which I will then be free
to administer as I see fit.

I propose that I set up an account "HBD" on the new server, and publish the 
password to this forum.  Or better yet, I think anyone who wants the password
should email me for it.  That way the PW will not be posted in a public
forum somewhere.

"www.bodensatz.com" isn't going anywhere soon, so it should provide a fairly
permanent home for any required images.  I can also post a page with 
instructions on how to put images up there, and how to link to them.

My co-located server is currently a month or two away, so you will all
have to be patient if you want to go with this idea.

Comments?

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:58:26 -0400 
From: "Ahrendt, Eric (E.J.)" <eahrendt at visteon.com>
Subject: Visiting Madison

Jeff,

	If you do make the trip to Capital (highly recommended) make sure to
try Kirby's 1900. One of the few commercial examples of CAP around.
Depending on when you go you might catch one of their garden parties.

	Also, New Glarus is only about 30 minutes outside of Madison (Not
sure of the Rennerian Coordinates.)  I think their tour schedule is kind of
limited so phone ahead.  Spotted Cow has nearly achieved god like status in
those parts.

Eric Ahrendt
Manufacturing Engineer
Visteon Automotive Systems
Sandusky Plant


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:03:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Otter malt and cloudy beer?

"Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com> asks:
>
>When I went to pick up the malt I noticed it just said Otter on the bag,
>no Marris.

Maris is the breeder.  They have developed many breeds of grains, and name
their barleys after small British mammals.  There is, for example, also
Maris Badger.  See http://www.breworld.com/malt/maris.html for really good
information.  There is also Michael Jackson's EXCELLENT article in Malt
Advocate at http://realbeer.com/maltadvocate/u95/U95JCKSN.html, although
this discusses MO wrt whisky more than beer.

The other consideration is the maltster.  Crisp is one well known malting
house in UK that produces MO malt.
http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/crisp.html

>Then I began brewing with it as usual but found EVERY
>batch I made with it never cleared! I am now hearing from others in my
>homebrew club that they are noticing this as well.

Sorry, I can't help you directly with this.  There were reports on HBD some
years ago (5+?) about some importer shoving off some substandard MO malt on
American homebrewers.  I'd suggest that you contact your shop and have them
get the specs on the lot you have.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:16:25 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Mylar Bags

American Science and Surplus has "metalized mylar bag"s.  Measure 8-3/4" x
2-1/2" priced at $2.00 for a pack of 25.  Catalog number 27888, Mylar bag.

Web site http://www.sciplus.com.  Phone 847-982-0870.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:27:56 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: An apology of sorts

Sorry folks this is probably non-beer related.

I'd just like to apologise to Messrs. Graham Sanders and Phil Yates.
I mistakingly referred to Graham as the householder of The Burradoo Hilton, 
I'll put it down to my semi-newbie-ism because of my geographic ignorance I 
thought that Burradoo was in Queensland, a mistake I shouldn't have made and 
I do regret, because of the definite lack of vowels in the name "Burradoo".
Queensland cities/suburbs tends to have five to ten more vowels on average 
in their names. I'm just an ignorant Melburnian Southerner who has the 
ability to type at an average of 80 words per minute and think at the rate 
of about one word per minute as you could all well guess, this creates 
pretty poor mental balance as I now realise that Burradoo is in the Southern 
Highlands of New South Wales.

Once again Graham, I am on my knees begging your forgiveness... Because you 
are my newfound Bagwan, Guru or whatever it be in the appreciation of 
"Belgian Beauties" I did always realise that you are a Queenslander (honest) 
due to your sensory profile and acute understanding of Banana Esters in the 
afore-mentioned "Belgian Beauties".

As for you Mr. Phil Yates, we've not spoken yet, but I expect a very severe 
tongue-lashing and a rare taste of your Cat 'O' Nine Tails, go easy on me as 
I now realise that you are master of the house, that house being The 
Burradoo Hilton!

You can all blame it on me noggin being befuddled with me "East Indian Pukka 
Porter" this runs at about 8% Alc. (Awwh Crap! Here comes the Temperance 
Movement) and it has an incredible blackcurrant complexity, due to a very 
meticulous dry-hopping regimen (secret). I have the "Appelation Controlee" 
of this mighty fine beverage and I recommend no operating of heavy machinery 
after its consumption!

What a mistake to make... What next - I'll be thinkin that the right 
honourable Dr. Pivo comes from a far-away land such as Uzbekistan!
I can just see it now. Dr. Pivo krauzens his keg with none other than Human 
Growth Hormone (HGH) (sorry Doc. jez jokin). Sure would would beat Carapils 
for putting body in your beer though I'd say. Two pints and your skull 
plates would separate, your teeth would develop gaps and you would develop 
Gigantism!

Sorry about the bandwidth folks... I will try to tone it down.
Warren L. White, Melbourne, Australia
(Type fast and prosper)

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:33:47 -0400
From: "FatCat" <fatcat at homebrew.com>
Subject: U Fleku

Anyone with a clue how to brew this beer?  E-mail fine.  Thanks

__________________________________________________
Do You Homebrew?!
Get your free  at homebrew.com email account!
http://mail.homebrew.com/


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:38:34 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Otter Malt,

Brewsters:

Walt used Marris-Otter malt satisfactorily.  He  recenty purchased bag
labelled Otter which failed to give clear beers.  Walt, maybe you Otter try
something else, like a protein rest.  Marris-Otter is a name of a barley
and as far as I know, no Otter barley exists.. Perhaps the bag labelling is
a sign that this malt is off-spec. I would complain to the HB store and see
what the owner does. 

You could also try using this in combination with a high enzyme malt like a
US two row, in case the malt has been damaged in storage or is excessively
old or whatever.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:41:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Otter malt and cloudy beer?

Among the draff in HBD #3425, Walter H. Lewis III Spake thusly:
>My question is, has anyone here had similar experiences and does anyone
>know anything about plain old Otter malt and what happened to the
>Marris?

   Maris Otter is a grain variety; who was the maltster for your
"Otter" grain?

   I bought a bag of Beeston's Maris Otter last year, and encountered
the cloudy beer syndrome with all three batches I've used it for so
far[*].  Other malts (Chariot, Halcyon, Pipkin) from Beeston made for
great clear beer.
   I heard a rumor from a CAMRA bloke in England that some breweries
there stopped using Maris Otter somewhat recently due to quality
problems.  Don't know if that's true, but certainly makes some sense
in the context of cheap MO on the homebrew market and cloudy beer
in our bottles and cornies.

[*] Single temperature infusion mashed, ~155F (68C).
- -- 
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Brewing cloudy Real Ale in East-central Illinois



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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:56:57 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Multi-tier systems / graphics on HBD

mark king <car_diagnostics at yahoo.com> asks about 3-tier systems:

>..I was wondering if someone could give me some
>  advice on this type of setup or a similar (looking)
>  one in the same price range ($2300 +/-).

Lots of choices here - I've looked at many of them and the end cost
seems very similar by the time the same number of bells and whistles are
included.  I'm going to give you my list from memory (note to
collective: if I forget anything, please add it on)

1.  St. Pat's system:  standard welded 3-tier rack, available in
stainless for the alloy perverts out there.  Available as both rack only
or as turn-key system.  

2.  Penquat brewtree by Modesto Homebrew supply:  Straight all gravity
system with a winch attachment for raising your mashtun.  Pretty well
designed and easy to put on wheels if you want to move it around. 
Possibly too tall for some basements, uses propane, warning you will die
if you use it indoors, etc.  Tough to find ads for the system, they used
to advertise in Zymurgy alot.

3.  pbsbeer.com:  High quality systems with lots of bells and whistles
available; actually only on 2 tiers so a pump is required.  

4.  morebeer.com:  Many different sized systems.  Seem very well
constructed and the largest size is reported to be able to make about
anything you would want.  Stands for small units have interesting
design; some pumping is required.

5.  pico-brewing.com:  A single level keg based system; needs pumps to
move liquids.

Based on my research, I lean towards either the Penquat or morebeer.com
systems, but in the end you probably have to make that call based on
your own needs and brewing space.  Obviously, I like the smaller
footprint systems.  No affiliation with any of the above.  

- ----------------- 
> > Hey, Pat.... in your spare time how'd ya like to
> > monitor graphics and filter them?
> 
> Yee-gads! Yikes!

That's too bad.  I've got a picture of Dan Listermann resplendent in an
"I Love My MaltMill" t-shirt at Beer and Sweat this year.  

Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League				Cincinnati, OH


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:51:26 +0200 
From: Weaver Joseph 39MDG/SGOAM <Joseph.Weaver at incirlik.af.mil>
Subject: 

I am really dissapointed that no one responded to my post last week, so I am
going to post it again.

I've moved to Turkey for 2 years and my brewing equipment is due in any day
now.  I managed to mail over my left over ingredients and have on hand the
following items.  What would you brew if you had only enough base malt for
one batch, along with the assortment of odds and ends bellow?

8 to 10 # of 2 row Wisconsin Pale Ale Malted Barley
1/2 # 60 L Caramel Malt
1/2 # 80 L Caramel Malt
1 # chocolate Malt
1/4 # roast barley
1/2 # biscuit malt
1/2 # torrefied wheat
1/2 # malted wheat
1/2 # Munich malt
1 # Carapils

1 oz Kent Golding Hop Plugs
1 oz Willamette leaf hops
1 1/2 oz Cascade plugs
1 oz Fuggles plugs

2 packs of Munton's dry yeast

The water here is very hard and comes from a deep artesian well.  When I run
it through my faucet mounted Pure water purifier I notice a big difference
in taste.  Think it will be OK for brewing.

Todd Weaver 


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:53:14 +0200 
From: Weaver Joseph 39MDG/SGOAM <Joseph.Weaver at incirlik.af.mil>
Subject: 

Also, only one person responded to my wine question.  Am I not worthy?

Grapes here in Turkey are in season and are selling for 250,000 Turkish Lira
per Kilogram.  That's about 0.40 U.S. cents for 2.2 pounds.  Needless to
say, I have attempted a couple of batches of wine from memory.  I only made
one batch while back in the U.S.  Can't really say that I know what I am
doing.  Would someone give me a basic recipe for guidance until my library
arrives?  

I have access to 5 and 8 liter glass jars with tight fitting plastic lids
that will hold a fermentation lock nicely.  Also found 30 liter large
plastic carboys in a local market.  

Made my one and only batch here in Turkey from yellow cherries while they
were in season and it seems to taste OK.  I used 3 Kilos of cherries for a 4
Liter batch, the OG measured about 1034 after the 24 hr soak with Campden
Tablets, so I added 2 cups of sugar to bring the gravity up to 1082.  Also
added about a teaspoon of acid blend, about a teaspoon of yeast nutrients,
and a package of yeast (can't remember which kind).

I attempted 3 more batches last week.  One red, one white, and one melon.  I
used about 5 or 6 kilos for the white and the OG from the grape juice read
about 1084.  Added a little water to bring it up to volume which dropped the
OG to 1062 so I adjusted with sugar.  Then added nutrients act.  Did roughly
the same with the red.  The mellon OG was around 1034.

How many Kilos of grapes do I need per gallon of finished wine? 

How many Kilos of fruit in general per volume of wine?  (Figs are supposed
to be excellent!) 

When I remove the must, I assume that enough water gets added back to bring
it up to the original volume?

I have on hand acid blend, tannin, pectinase, yeast nutrients, and yeast.

Also, have seen rose petals in recipes.  Can get plenty here.  Fresh or dry?
How much?


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:04:36 -0400
From: "Bill Coleman" <maltydog at mindspring.com>
Subject: Big Beer Toys

Has anyone out there purchased and use the 15.5 gallon Sabco Fermenter
Converted from
a keg? The ones advertised at: http://www.kegs.com/fermenters.html

They look pretty interesting. At $319.95, they're not exaclty cheap, but I
guess they could
be a lot more expensive as well.

I was wondering about anyone's experience with them. Are they easy to clean?
Can you remove
the yeast from the bottom easily? (Thereby using the same fermenter for
primary and secondary
fermentation.)

Any experiences homebrewers have had with these fermenters would be
interesting to me.

Bill Coleman



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:10:03 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Champagne caps, Marris goes missing, PBW offer, and Diebels Alt

John Lovett writes of Champagne bottles:

> Champagne bottles can also be closed with crown seals - not
> the same size as
> a standard beer bottle, which are 26mm but a larger one, 28mm
> I think. This
> means, of course, that you would need a special head for the
> bench capper or
> whatever.

Sparkling wine bottles come in two cap sizes. Most of the European bottles
are the larger size and will not work with standard beer capping hardware.
However, some producers use a bottle that does accept the standard crown
caps. I believe American and Spanish "fizzies" fall into that category, but
of course, there will be exceptions to every rule. Now, there is a note on
Presque Isle's web site that they will soon be stocking equipment and
supplies for 29mm bottles. I'm assuming this will include capping equipment.
Anyway, if interested email them at prwc at erie.net
*************************************

The third Walter Lewis comments:

> Several months ago my local homebrew store had a deal on "
> Marris Otter"
> malt for $29.95 per 50# bag.
> When I went to pick up the malt I noticed it just said Otter
> on the bag,
> no Marris.

Walter, it was announced sometime ago that the maltings in question were
purchased by Seattle psychiatrist Niles Crane, who immediately had the word
Marris stricken from the malt products. No explanation was given for this
decision.

Note: To those of you in the world that are not privy to American
television, this was a joke. It's Friday, and I'm in a silly mood.
**************************************

Daniel Stedman tempts the wrath of some government bureaucracy, I'm sure,
when he writes:
> After a little cleaner/sanitizer binge (well, I probably only
> need 32 ounces,
> but look at how cheap 4 gallons is per ounce!), I find myself
> with 4 gallons
> of StarSan and a 50 lb pail of PBW. I would love to sell a
> large portion of
> it to some local homebrewers (at cost, of course)

This reminds me of a posting a while back (it may not have been in here)
that I believe came from a Five Star employee. He commented that it is
illegal for brew shops to repackage PBW cleaner for sale in smaller
quantities. Perhaps some federal regulation about safe handling of chemicals
and the need to pay them a fee in order for you to be considered safe. Now,
I'm sure the government will take into account that you are a private
citizen doing this on a not-for-profit basis, and will consider you exempt
from these regulations. (Is there an emoticon for not being able to keep a
straight face)? Still, if you get a knock on your door in the middle of the
night,...
******************************************

Finally, Matthew Arnold writes:
> Diebels may call its product an "Alt" but I'm certain that no
> one would ever
> mistake it for Zum Uerige. It's not even in the same galaxy.

According to what I've read (and there's a little inside joke there), Zum
Uerige is a very extreme example of the style, and should not be considered
the definitive Alt. Diebels and many others more properly typify the style.

Cheers,
Brian



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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:57:16 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: transport damage 'spurments.

Just thought I might mention that the boot of your car is a dandy way to
do some transport damage protection testing.

For those who REALLY want to get serious, and do some standardised
testing, the equivalent equipment to what the industrious industrials
use for dealing with this subject is available at your local paint store.

As with most things, if you say it has to do with making beer, they'll
probably let you use it.  A couple minutes on the "paint blending
machine", is equivalent to a lot of road time, and gives you a
standardised way to compare, should you want to do different "side by
sides", of different "beer condoms" (protectors), at different times.

I'm pretty sure this is WAY beyond the interest of most folks, but I
just thought I'd pass this tip on, should there be anyone else out there
that is stupid enough to try and make their 'spurments as "clean" and
"repeatable" as possible, when nobody is even paying you to do it.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:05:29 -0500 
From: "Sweeney, David" <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: RIMS wiring

I'm in need of some heat resistant wire for my RIMS rack.  the wire should
be between 12-18 ga and resistant up to perhaps 300F.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:14:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff McNally)
Subject: American Brewer gone too?

Hi All,

  Does anyone know if American Brewer magazine is still
being published?

  I sent in a check for a subscription back in late May,
and it cleared my bank on June 19th, but I still have'nt
seen my first issue.

  I've tried calling several times, but only get an
answering machine saying to leave a message.  I've left
two messages, but no-one has returned my calls.

  I also notice that the web page (www.americanbrewer.com)
is over a year out-of-date.  Not a good sign.

                                          Hoppy brewing,

                                          Jeff

==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0500 
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: How long before giving up on yeast?

Rama,

I would give up on that yeast now and try to get some more as soon as
possible.  Maybe you could get it FedExed to you.  My understanding is that
the date on the pack is the date it was manufactured and you should have ~6
months from that date to use it -- if it is handled properly.  The fact that
it was already punctured is distressing.  If it was punctured a long time
before you received it, the yeast may have consumed all of the wort and
begun to autolyze (self destruct).  There's no way to tell how long ago it
was punctured or what temperature it had to endure during transit.  A
delivery truck's interior could easily reach 120 degrees F, or more, which
would quickly kill the yeast.  

As for your waiting wort.  Keep it sealed and don't open it until you can
pitch in a healthy yeast pack.  It should be able to stand the wait.  Of
course the longer it sits without yeast the more chance of infection but if
you sanitized the fermenter well, you should be ok.  

When you get the new yeast be sure to re-aireate the wort by shaking or
sloppy stirring with a sanitized spoon.  

I had the same problem with a some mail order yeast recently.  I think it's
due to heat in transit.  Fortunately I was able to go to a local home brew
shop and get a new pack fresh from the cooler.

Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 15:42:33 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Munich Malt in Alt

>Fred L. Johnson writes...
>
>Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone can  make a good alt
(including
>Al Korzonas), with their characteristic high attenuation levels, using the
>high levels of Munich malt

And Warren White
>According to Roger Protz in one of his books a leading Alt brewer like
>Diebels uses 99% Pilsner Malt and 1% Roast Malt so you'd have to question
>the 100% Munich thing, this would have to be a bit of a cop-out to avoid
>decoction mashing I'd assume.
>
>I'd always assumed that Munich Malt has very low enzyme levels probably
most
>likely making it a dubious proposition as 100% of your grist anyway.

Munich malts in my experience can completely convert themselves w/o
difficulty and even achieve good attenuation given careful mashing - still
10% pale isn't a bad idea.

Despite his accent I have to agree otherwise with Warren.  Alt style appears
to have a wide range of malt bill (based on reading) including the Deibels
one he suggests and I would expect a range for color and attenuation.  The
malt bills match everything from a well attenuated ale to a dunkel.  Kunze
repeats a Narziss paper plus his own notes in mentioning malt bills of

Altbier:
1/ 99% pale, 1% colored
2/ 85% pale, 15% cara-dunkel
3/ 90% Munich, 10% pale
4/ 90% munich, 10% dark caramel
5/ 100 munich
6/ 50% munich, 50% bruhmalt
7/ 70% vienna, 20% munich, 10%wheat malt

That's quite a range, and I can't believe that malt bill 2/ with 15%
cara-dunkel or 4/ with 10% caramel is highly attenuated.  Kunze reports OG
of 11.2-12P, and the alcohol range of 4.6-5.2%ABV and color range of
30-38EBC and bitterness 28-40IBUs.

I calculate the midpoint of OG and alc would represent almost 80% apparent
attenuation - very high indeed and not IMO achievable w/ maltbill 4/.  Even
the high OG and low Alc figure gives 73% apparent attenuation.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 15:58:20 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Gravity contribution of starch

Doug Moyer writes ...

>>"...but I doubt it was unconverted starch since I'm getting proper
>>extraction..."
>
>Wouldn't unconverted starch (oxymoron?) contribute to the gravity?

Yes, it absolutely does.  Altho' only part of the starch complement is truly
soluble the rest will appear in suspension, contributing to SG, and not much
of the free starch will remain behind in the lauter.  My recollection is
that amylopectins are solube, but amylose is not - tho' I may have that
bass-ackwards.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:30:36 -0500
From: "Thomasson, John W" <john.w.thomasson at lmco.com>
Subject: Alts/Munich/1338

Howdy all,

In HBD #3422 Tue 05 September 2000, Fred L. Johnson 
<FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> said:

>Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone can  make a good alt 
>(including Al Korzonas), with their characteristic high attenuation 
>levels, using the high levels of Munich malt I have often seen for 
>this style.  I have simply quit trying. Suggestions are welcome!

Then, in HBD #3424 Thu 07 September 2000, Warren White 
<warrenlw63 at hotmail.com> reported:

>According to Roger Protz in one of his books a leading Alt brewer like 
>Diebels uses 99% Pilsner Malt and 1% Roast Malt so you'd have to 
>question the 100% Munich thing, this would have to be a bit of a cop-
>out to avoid decoction mashing I'd assume.

>I'd always assumed that Munich Malt has very low enzyme levels 
>probably most likely making it a dubious proposition as 100% of your 
>grist anyway.

>My line of thinking would be to use say 70% Pils Malt and then maybe 
>30% of a darker Munich Malt and a small bit of Caramel or an even way 
>smaller additon of a Roasted Malt.

>Better to err on the side of higher attenuation and a drier finish 
>IMHO!

>By the way Fred did Pete Czerpak use the Wyeast 1338 European Ale? 
>Because this stuff is very unattenuative (67-71%)conversely the 1007 
>goes far drier (73-77%).

~~~~~~~~~~~~

WRT the fermentability of Munich and the attenuativeness of Wyeast 
1338, I'd have to say it depends on the mash schedule and yeast 
management technique.  Consider my most recent batch of Alt:

Batch size: 10 gallons
20# Light Munich (87%)
3# Melanoidin (13%)
50 IBUs (German Perle, all at start of boil)
Double decoction mash (20' at 142, 90' at  154F, 20' at 166F)
Wyeast 1338
OG 1.065
**FG 1.010 (84.6 apparent attenuation!)
Primary fermentation temperature: 60F

Now I will admit that such a low FG surprised me.  Actually, the OG was 
a little higher than I had planned (1.060).  I routinely see apparent 
attenuation of about 78% with 1338, even with a high % of Munich in the 
grist, and expected this one to end up around 1.014.  It's a bit potent 
for the style, but it doesn't taste too alcoholic.  The malt flavor is 
intense, but is balanced pretty well by the hops.

The yeast was a repitch of about 12 fl. oz. solids harvested from a 
previous primary ferment.  I allowed it to warm gradually to room 
temperature, then fed it 2 quarts of fresh wort the night before 
brewing.  It appeared marginally active at pitching.  The wort was 
aerated with pure O2.  Lag time was about 6 hours; primary fermentation 
was done in about 3 days.
 
I usually test for conversion when using a large % of Munich, but I 
have yet to see a positive result after a 90 minute conversion stand.  
In this case it would appear that it had enough enzymatic power to 
convert whatever starch was contributed by 13% melanoidin.  I've had 
very similar results with single infusion mashes at 150F.  The Munich 
used in this batch was light Moravian, but I've also used Durst and 
Weyermann.  These also converted with no problem and fermented out 
fine.

Some may wonder why anyone would do a double decoction mash with a 
grain bill like this.  Well, because the beer tastes good!  I brewed 
several Alts using slight variations of Al K's recipe, but the Aromatic 
malt gave the beer a flavor note that was not quite German, IMHO.  Sort 
of a raisiny, Special-B'ish flavor.  A 100% light Munich grist will not 
have enough color.  I've never used dark Munich; I think this may be 
where some have run into conversion problems.

This most recent batch was my second using Munich and melanoidin.  The 
first time, I used 6% melanoidin, and the beer did not have enough 
color for the style.  When I kegged the second, I initially thought I'd 
overdone the melanoidin.  However, after 45 days of lagering the 
obnoxious melanoidin flavor mellowed considerably, and melded nicely 
with the other flavors to make a very nice beer, IMHO.  I'm planning to 
enter it in the Dixie Cup next month to see what the judges think.

I've never had the real McCoy, but caramel or roasted flavors don't fit 
my paradigm of what an Alt should be.  But, I'm sure someone has made a 
great Alt from mostly pale malt and a small portion of highly colored 
malt.  I can't make an argument for the authenticity of mine, but I can 
say that IMHO it's a pretty good drink.  I've never been able to decide 
from the published flavor descriptions whether an Alt should lean 
towards malt, hops, or balance of the two anyway.


Cheerios,

John Thomasson
Aledo, Texas




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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:01:47 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: 5th Annual Music City Brew-Off

The Music City Brewers, Nashville's homebrewing club, are proud to announce
the:
5th Annual Music City Brew-Off Homebrew Competition featuring Special Guest
Fred Eckhardt, beer and sake writer.
All AHA styles of beer, mead, and cider will be accepted.   1999 AHA/BJCP
Style guidelines will be used.  Competition is AHA sanctioned.
See our webpage at http://www.musiccitybrewers.com  for more information
and .pdf files for forms and bottle ID labels or contact the competition
organizer at stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu.
Entry Fee:
$5 for each entry.  Make checks payable to The Music City Brewers c/o Ken
Rebman, Treasurer.  Checks or money orders only please.  Thank you.
Entry Deadline:
	Entries accepted between September 1, 2000 to September 16, 2000 at
4:00PM.  Drop off or send your entries to:
Music City Brewers
c/o Boscos Nashville Brewing Company
1805 21st Avenue South
Nashville, TN  37212
Judging:
	Judging will begin at 9:00 AM, Saturday, September 23, 2000.
Interested Judges and Stewards should contact Steve Johnson at (615)
327-4100 or via e-mail at stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:08:09 EDT
From: Althelion at aol.com
Subject: Comments on current issues

"Self delusion is the key to happiness"

Greetings:
To John Van Hove in sub Sahara Alabama: I've used the BrewTek grainmill for 
the past five years with excellent results. Sure has gone up in price but has 
a better hopper than the cutoff plastic jug I got with mine. Adjustment 
screws allow you to get and maintain the "right grind."

Brewing Books: I personally started with Miller's Brewing the Worlds Great 
Beers. Quite short by comparison but certainly as adequate as Charlies' 
books. Anyways, all these books are good because they are meant to be an 
introduction to and instruction in the art and science of homebrewing. 
Certainly if you stay with the hobby and develop your skills you outgrow 
their application. I can't remember the last time I opened TCJOHB. But when I 
started, I opened it all the time. I always recommend these books to 
beginners. After a while, you almost have to write your own book because your 
brewing system (equipment setup, timeframe) doesn't fit any generalized 
model. 

Re: Oats in beer - head retention
I always step mash my oatmeal stouts (122 - 30 minutes; 154 - 60 minutes) and 
add some wheat to the grist and get pretty good head retention.

Re: Dave Burley in HBD #3423 open/closed boiling
I always boil open. I always figured that a major element of a vigorous boil 
was the vaporation(my word) of undesireable elements in the wort. Covering 
the pot would let these liquid heebie jeebie driplets back into the pot. I 
agree with Matt Brady, the sherry flavor is probably from bad extract.

Got a northern brown ale finishing primary this weekend and the lower 
Michigan weather decides to get warm and humid again. Into the cooler for the 
secondary.

Al Pearlstein
Commerce Township, Michigan


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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:10:38 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Gravity contribution of starch

Doug Moyer wrote:

>Could one of y'all learned folks add a little info to my befuddled head?
>Paul Claassen, the Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>, said:
>
>"...but I doubt it was unconverted starch since I'm getting proper
>extraction..."
>
>I've seen similar comments in my years of reading the hbd and have never
>felt comfortable with such sentiments. Wouldn't unconverted starch
>(oxymoron?) contribute to the gravity? Or, is it assumed that any such
>starch would remain in the malt, and not make it into the solution? (Which I
>don't buy into, I guess.) Could one of you macrocephalics bend a thought in
>my direction?

You're right, I am assuming that lower than usual extraction would mean
that a lot of starch remains in the kernel, although some would certainly
find its way into solution. Perhaps somebody wiser than I am would
illuminate the issue.

I was overly concise in my original posting. In addition to proper
extraction, the mashing schedule had worked many times before, and the
recirculated wort was clear. I rarely use iodine any longer because of the
confidence I have in my water treatment and mashing technique. Everything
else in my process being the same from batch to batch, I simply watch the
extraction rate as an indicator of the quality of my mashing process. 

As to the resolution of my haze problem, Del <delbrew at compuserve.com>
informs me that he received a batch analysis on Weissheimer Pils malt in
May (about the same time that I bought my latest bunch of malt) that shows
it to be quite undermodified, with a 36-37% S/T (soluble to total) protein
ratio. Such a low S/T ratio requires a protein rest. The last Weissheimer
Pils malt batch analysis that I saw about three years ago showed that it
had a S/T ratio or Kolbach index of something like 42%, which is why I
haven't been doing a protein rest.

Evidently a lot of undegraded protein is carrying into my boil. When I used
pellets, they contributed enough tannin to get a good hot break and a
fairly clear beer. However, the whole and plug hops appear to contribute
less tannin (can anyone confirm this?), leading to less hot break and an
excessive cold break. The undegraded protein carrying into the beer is
producing the haze, muddled taste and flavor instability. The low FAN
levels are also contributing to the weaker than normal yeast performance
that I've seen lately. So, I will add a protein rest to my mashing schedule
and ask the local shop owner to get me a copy of the batch analysis every
time I order some new malt.

Paul Claassen
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico



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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:52:10 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Leechees and Longans

Actually, I like the Idea of a longan beer.  If you will note, most 
of the Americans were very quiet about this subject.  Here in the 
US we may have fantastic Home Brew shops but we don't have Longans or 
leechees, at least not fresh ones.  The canned ones don't do them 
justice.  For those who haven't had them fresh is it an indescribable 
delicacy.

It's been 27 years since I had one.  Those red spiny melon/grape/whatever 
tasting fruits have stuck in my mind ever since.  

Knock yourself out, Graham.  Closest we could come over here would probably be 
Honeydew Melon Beer.  
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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