---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Decoction and Duesseldorfer Alts ("Fred Waltman")
  Sherry-like flavor from open boil (Dave Burley)
  travelling beer (Ray Kruse)
  roasting wheat malt ("Warren White")
  More on the "Otter" Malt (Walt Lewis)
  Pics/Gravity Contribution of Starch ("A. J.")
  FWH,squashing cockroaches ("Graham Sanders")
  Burradoo Hilton moves to Nth Qld, Home roasting ("Graham Sanders")
  Wanted: Samuel Adams & Spitfire clone recipes ("Alexandre Carminati")
  Other Formats Within The HBD ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  Is There Really A Mr Sanders? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Going The Full Circle ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Turkish wine (LyndonZimmermann)
  Champagne Corks & La Fin Du Monde (LyndonZimmermann)
  HELP for acid stout (Rick Pauly)
  Quest for a Grain Mill (John C Van Hove)
  Decoction mashing views of a Bavarian ("Norm Hardy")
  Tips on Visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 5) ("Alan McKay")
  Re:  Vegas? (MObucho829)
  Subject: travelling beer ("Eric J Fouch")
  17th Annual Dixie Cup ("Bev D. Blackwood II")
  water and priming (RIPIC80)
  Re: So What Have I(ie Phil) Achieved? (David Lamotte)
  Decoction: to decoct, or not to decoct... ("Pat Babcock")
  Hop utilization and timing ("pksmith_morin")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:55:39 -0700
From: "Fred Waltman" <fwaltman at mediaone.net>
Subject: Decoction and Duesseldorfer Alts


Alan "Mr. Koeln" McKay asks about decoction and Duesseldorfer alts:

I know that Uerige and Schluessel are not and I am pretty sure
that Fuechschen is not as well (I didn't see any kind of
cooker in their brew house). Somebody told me that Schumacher
still used decoction, but I don't have any independent knowledge.

I would doubt that any of the "mega alts" use decoction, but I
again, I have no personal knowledge one way or the other.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply (Los Angeles area)
www.StickeWarriors.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 06:28:06 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sherry-like flavor from open boil

Brewsters:

Both Al Pearlstein and Matt Brady conclude that the totally open boil,
which even professional brewers do not do, but  which Al and Matt always
do, couldn't possibly contribute to oxidative browning and a sherry-like
flavor in their beers.  It's fine to have an opinion, but it is not very
persuasive until you try the experiment. Go ahead.  It's easy.  After the
boilup, keep the lid mostly on ( ~5/6) during the hour long boil. You will
be pleasantly surprised if you are also careful in other stages to keep
oxygen out of your hot wort. The best experiment is, of course, to do one
kettle open and one partially closed on the same wort and compare the worts
and beers. 

I am not persuaded by the argument that the browning and sherry-like flavor
is due to extract since I did the experiment in my early brewing days with
extract and saw the difference. Periodic repeats with all grain ( for
various reasons - mostly because it was 2 AM)  confirmed this.

One issue which I have not explored is the difference between pale malt
worts and caramelized worts in terms of their sensitivity to this
phenomenon. Jeff ( I think) made an observation that perhaps lagers are
less susceptible to this than colored ales. Don't know, but it is possible.
A good experiment to do. Another explanation for this observation is the
different hopping levels or types of hops ( which may explain A-B's ability
to aerate their hot wort) between lagers and ales, as I intuitively feel
that the tannins ( from the husks and the hops)  and their oxidation are
involved. This would still be in line somewhat with Jeff's observation. 

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:35:12 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: travelling beer

All of this talk about shaking brew to simulate travelling conditions
and no one mentions heat.

I'd suggest that the problem is not so much the agitation as the long
exposure to warmer temperatures that causes the larger portion of
flavordegradation.

Bouncing in the boot for several hours is bad enough, but when you have
the sun beating down on it in the Outback, .....

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com




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Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 22:37:02 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: roasting wheat malt

Good night Seattle! This is Doctor Frasier Crane!

Actually I'll be serious for a change, I'm formulating a dunkelweizen in 
advance and I was wondering if anywone has had experience with roasting 
malted wheat in their oven, in the same vein as malted barley?

I'd like to create the dark part of my grain-bill with roasted wheat, I may 
just be on to something here... Does anybody know if this will make a 
difference.

Just something that I recollect from somwhere saying that some dunkelweizens 
have roasted wheat, I dunno anything else! This could just be speculation.

Normal replies, strange replies, any replies! Would be appreciated!
I reckon some pioneering bugger out there has done this!

Also I'll be a wee bit of a wag for a minute!

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Brian Lundeen writes...

Walter, it was announced sometime ago that the maltings in question were
purchased by Seattle psychiatrist Niles Crane, who immediately had the word
Marris stricken from the malt products. No explanation was given for this
decision.

Note: To those of you in the world that are not privy to American
television, this was a joke. It's Friday, and I'm in a silly mood.


* * * * * * * * * * * *

Baby I hear the blues a callin, tossed salad and scrambled eggs!

David Hyde-Pierce and his alter-ego Niles rule! I think is Marris has only 
one r does she not? i.e. Maris, ah shit whatever!

Warren L. White, Melbourne Australia
(Bring back Fraiser! Eddie turns me on!)
(Daphne more so!) (Funnin ya Brian)


_________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:40:08 -0400
From: Walt Lewis <wlewis at alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: More on the "Otter" Malt

First let me thank everyone for the many comments and information. Yes I
HAVE tried a protien rest wit hno noticable improvement.

Now for the details. I just retrieved an empty otter malt bag from the
back of the brewhaus. the details are:

Muntons PLC
Stowmarket England
25 KG Net

WHOLE OTTER
Batch 582 9167 BEE JUN 00 47431

Let me know if anyone can obtain any details on this.

I spoke with the owners of my HB shop yesterday. they simply shrugged
their sholders. They ARE Local, they DO support the local HB CLUB, and I
thought I'd save freight by getting local.Perhaps it's time for a
change.

Walt



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Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 17:53:16 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Pics/Gravity Contribution of Starch

The nay sayers with respect to my proposal to post the URLs of graphics
do have a good point when they note that any particular service used to
store the images may be gone tomorrow but what is the internet if not
ephemeral? Remember that the HBD itself has had close brushes with
extinction in the recent past. Obviously, I love Alan McKay's proposal
and hope he will go forward with it.

I can't buy Jim's argument that handling images is too complicated. The
sites I've fiddled with are designed as places for grandmothers to post
pictures of their grandchildren. While my SO probably couldn't figure
out how to get to them anyone who can brew beer ought to be able to.

The pic of my pooch was an experiment not in technology but in human
nature and drew the expected comments (though one of the complainers
admited that he had downloaded it). The point is that no one has  to
download anything his doesn't wan't to see. Now I suppose we could argue
that I might post a URL which I claim is is a picture of a pycnometer
but which is really a picture of yours truly  (whose shape resembles a
pycnometer more with each passing day) in the altogether. I  give you my
word of honor that I would never do that but can we count on our
antipodal cousins in this regard? (Don't take offense down there. The
only thing I don't like about Oz is the plane ride).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* *

Unconverted starch can make it into the wort where it does no good
resulting in hazy beers (because it isn't very soluble) and so care is
taken to see to it that the amount which survives the mash is minimal.
One of the dangers of decoction mashing is that starch released by a
decoction will not be converted in the main mash because of scalding or,
as in the case of the third decoction, because it raises the main mash
temperature to the point where enzymes are inactivated which is, of
course, what it is supposed to do and this is one of the reasons the
third decoction should contain mostly liquid.

Starch which does dissolve appears to contribute to the gravity of the
wort a little less than the same weight of sugar. This conclusion is
drawn from an experiment in which I made up 37.82 grams of solution
containing 0.7 grams of "soluble" (i.e. that's what it said on the
label) starch. This is a 1.851P  (i.e. 1.851% by weight) solution.
Getting that much starch to dissolve was not easy. Heat was required and
at this strength, the solution is quite viscous because starch
gelatinizes at high temperature. The significance of this is that
unless your wort is positively syrupy the amount of dissolved starch is
appreciably less than 1.8% by weight. The cooled solution measured 1.56P
(density 1.0042) at 20C. Thus a given amount of starch contributes about
84% to the gravity of the wort as an equal amount of sucrose (on which
the Plato scale is based). The ratio is similar for specific gravity
"points". A 1.851P solution of sucrose would have a specific gravity of
1.00722. This solution had a specific gravity of 1.0061



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:16:39 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: FWH,squashing cockroaches

G'day All

Now here am I ready to start another mini series, much smaller this time, on
those who requested information on my method of home roasting grains, when
out from the bar of the Burradoo Hilton scurries a bloody big well tanned
cockroach, makes its presence know in no uncertain terms, and just as
quickly tries to scurry away.

Now its obvious I'm going to have to have to put on my size 11 boot and put
paid to this little pest before he (opps it) resurfaces again. now I was
going to break up his little mess on HBD 3425, and give individual comments
but this is a New South Welshman, and of course I'm dealing with a creature
of simple pleasures, (and mind) so I have decided to correct for the masses
his gross "misconception" about the state of play.

Now remember this is a guy who made a post about those "flying taxi drivers"
actually caring about their passengers cause they're in the plane as well.
What he didn't say was that at least they got air-bags in case of pilot
error, us poor slobs in the back get paper ones.  And of couse they put them
in the pointy end of those flying coffins:  at least they know when to duck.
And do they inform us of an inpending impact, oh no, they leave us waiting
in suspense. Cruel guys.

Anyway, this is a guy who does't want to start a war, but what he doesn't
release is the war began long along.  I do not live in Queensland, never
have.  We in North Queensland separated from the rest of Aus long ago (I'm
sure you lot now can see why). This area of the world is truely God's own
country (whoever, or whatever your God, or Gods may be).  The fact is
everyone else in Aus tries to live up here (stomp, just got another
cockroach), and we up here have to keep kicking the bastards out.  Hence the
import duty of a carton of beer.

We all know that a cockroach's only love is their beer. Few will part with
it.  I can actually remember an air jockey who deliberately snunk in and out
of Townsville not wanting to part with a few rice lagers.  And the
misconception that we can't brew a decent beer up here because of the
climate, this comes from a man who needs a drug induced yeast to make his
beers passable to the masses (how else can he get those shellas arround the
pool table.)

But I can agree with him on one thing.  Yes its impossiblle for mere mortals
to brew a decent beer up here.  All so true, but then again I'll talk it
over with Rah, Zus, Appollo, The rainbow Serpent, Thor, (and a few other
ones) next time i bump into them. I'm sure they agree as well.

Now I did a rare mere motal thing when i confused poor Dan

Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:41:47 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: Anybody need some StarSan? / FWH

>1. use bittering hops as you would always use.
>2. the 10 minute flavour addition is only to be FWH
>3. Even cut it back by 10 to 20 %, the flavour can be that intense.
>4. Use hops of very low aa.  It was suggested 2 and below by some, but
>consenses puts it 5 and below.

Regarding #3, are you cutting back 10 to 20% the amount of hops that
you would have added 10 minutes before knockout, or do you calculate
your IBU's based on a full-length boil, and then cut it back 10 - 20%?
Seems like you would be gaining a lot more bitterness if you added the
same amount of flavor hops as FWH. Do you scale back the amount
of flavor hops so that the calculated IBU's are what you desired from
the 10 minute hop addition?


What I did was assume that everyone knew I was talking about.  We all know
that we should never assume, its makes an ASS out of U and ME. In regards to
point 3, I was making a point about the flavour contribution only.  The fact
that FWH can give an intense flavour, so you might consider cutting back on
this addition for delicate styles.  For IBU calculations, well thats a
different debate. use whatever methos turns you on.

Shout

Graham

Oh Phil, I've sent Eric happily swimming down to the Whitsundays.
Apartently he can get a good feed.  Eric might find it fustrating thou, like
certain "muddies", he's going to strike a lot that are just plain hollow.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:14:52 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Burradoo Hilton moves to Nth Qld, Home roasting

G'day All

Well one has to feel sorry for poor old Warren.  True he live at the
Ass -hole end of this country and this probably alone explains his actions.
Lets face it, not too many people in the space of a week can upset soooo
many people.  The Chinese are after him, the Hong Kong Water Board, Master
Brewers of Belgians, it seems half the rightous crowd in the good ol'USA,
well at this rate he couldn't even satisfy his SWMBO with new batteries.

Now if thats not enough to get a guy going, but to have a go at us, well he
had an attack of the guilts.  Hey mate, we're Aussies (although not quite
sure about a ceratin 'roach) - NO SWEAT.

But what you did say

Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:27:56 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: An apology of sorts

I mistakingly referred to Graham as the householder of The Burradoo Hilton,
I'll put it down to my semi-newbie-ism because of my geographic ignorance I
thought that Burradoo was in Queensland,

______________

Truth be known Warren, I wont allow the upper class Burrradoo Hilton into
the region, no matter how much he begs.  It just doesn't reach our high
standards.  But thats to be expected.

Shout

Graham

Oh, must keep my promise and refrain from constantly correcting those
ignorant southerners, next I'll (try) and start Home Roasting.





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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:41:11 -0300
From: "Alexandre Carminati" <carminat at email.com>
Subject: Wanted: Samuel Adams & Spitfire clone recipes

I've tasted (among other excellent beers) Samuel Adams and Spitfire Ale
(British) this weekend. I'd like very much if somebody could send me some
clone recipes for these too good beers.
Private emails are fine.

        Alexandre Carminati (in Brasil)
        carminat at email.com




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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:59:55 -0500 
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: Other Formats Within The HBD

Ok, there has been lots of input roll past me this week in regards 
to modifying the HBD to be more "hip" in regards to pics, 
illustrations, special charecters, and whatever, and it is time 
to tell all this janitor's position:

1) Plain text is the least common denominator.  ALL mail programs 
will handle it.  100% vs. whoknows.  Since I do agree that a picture
is worth 1000 words, there is no reason why people cannot put the url 
to a specific location for illustrations/pictures/movies/whatever, 
into the body of their mail. If someone wants to look at the link, 
they can copy and paste to a web browser. It is not that difficult, 
unless readers are just extremely lazy. However, special characters/
tags/MIME attachements still are not feasible as plain text still 
needs to be the least common denominator for at least another few 
years for all mailers to be upgraded. There are a multitude of people
still on ASCII only mailers and we cannot just say: "Tough, get up to
date". Many mail programs may not understand a specific character 
set and what the original poster sets on his mailer will be different 
on another.

Also, as a side note in regards to pics, it is possible for less than 
acceptable pictures to be posted onto the digest and then that could 
easily offend a large number of readers. And I would not like to see
the HBD get in trouble over some extremely offensive or illegal 
picture suddenly get posted to thousands of folks. I can tell you 
right now that we would have to move to a fully moderated setup if 
we went this route. Something I'm sure no one really wants (least of
all Pat and myself).

2) Storage of images to avoid the inevitable "404 or File Not Found"
associated with thing we call the Web, would mean that Pat and I
would have to beg for more money to set up an image server. Also,
as mentioned above, we would have to check every image that was
sent in. As Pat said in a recent digest on this topic: 

                "Yee-gads! Yikes!"

3) We have an htmlized version of the digest already available.  
If folks want, they can go to http://hbd.org and click on the 
HTMLized link on the left. All URL's are active.

4) It is possible for us to start shipping out the htmlized version
of the HBD to all who would prefer it.  It's a simple matter of a 
parallel list.  The only hard part is getting time in Karl's schedule
to finish it up.

5) I am willing to set up a poll and send to the readership to see
what mailers they use, what they would like to see, etc. However, I
am not ready to take on such a poll at this time, so please do not
hit the digest with such responses. An announcement will come out
on that issue soon.

Remember, if it aint' broke, why fix it?  All the new (relative term
here) extensions of mail do not necessarily mean that it will improve
the content of the digest.  In fact it would be rather easy for someone
to change image locations, take advantage of security holes and lots
of other nasty items I could think of, by moving to a more than just 
ASCII digest.

Would such extensions really enhance the digest content?  Personally, 
I really doubt it but since the digest is for the homebrewing community 
and not belonging to any specific persons, we will listen.  The poll
will follow soon...

Karl Lutzen
The Usually Silent Janitor Who Has Far Too Much On His Plate
(But he did find time to brew last weekend)

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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:03:51 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Is There Really A Mr Sanders?

It is true that recently I paid a visit to Townsville (even brought a carton
along - so the poor sucker could actually try a real beer).

I searched feverishly for a Mr Graham Sanders. Thoroughly checked out the
Townsville phone book, rang the operator, asked all manner of knowledgable
persons at the airport.

Not a soul had ever heard of him, let alone tried his beer or seen his head
eating fish.

At least Jeff Renner got as far as the Burradoo train station and it was
just bad luck that I was not home.

But Mr Graham Sanders doesn't even want to let the locals know where he
lives let alone any interstate visitors.

I suspect he is really Dr Pivo writing posts via his brother's email address
in North Queensland. The one who really was the Captain of the forgetful
dive boat tours!

Never mind, I'll be sending him no more Ayinger yeast!
By the way, my latest rice lager is probably the closest to a North
Queensland lager that I have ever produced.
Light and insipid, you could drink gallons of the stuff whilst sweating and
sweltering in the insufferable Queensland heat!

We send people there for punishment, not pleasure.
But some poor souls obviously get confused.

Cheers
Baron Of Rice Lagers
And Temperate Climates




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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:00:22 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Going The Full Circle

Before Graham Sanders rips into me about my insipid rice lager (which he
hasn't yet tasted, by the way), I thought it only fair to elaborate.

Some of you will know I have been mucking about with rice lagers for quite
some time. What got me started on the style is quite another story to what
kept me going with production - that being the realisation that the girls go
ape over it.
Nights around the Billiard table have demonstrated that!

But originally, and perhaps feeling that homebrewing was largely supported
and bolstered by only homebrewers who insisted that what they made was
infinitely better than commercial beer, I had a concern.

It has been said that we homebrewers cannot make a light and delicate beer
(read as insipid) and have to depend on stronger flavours in our beer to
mask our inadequacies in production. This troubled me and underneath it all
something told me that maybe this was so.

This concern sent me down a homebrewing path that possibly most wouldn't
bother with. But I had to prove something to myself.

My endeavour has been to produce a water coloured and flavourless (well
along those lines) beer to match a Budweiser, king of beers, as the bottle
claims.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have done it!

My latest rice lager would have to challenge Budweiser as the epitome in
colourless and flavourless beer.

On one hand I feel I have achieved a technical great.
On the other hand, I'm wondering what the hell I am going to do with all 50
litres of it! Drink it I guess. Or flog it off at the Burradoo Hilton.
Or better still, send it up to Graham to help him through the Queensland
summer months.

It has been an interesting experiment and now that I am done with it, I
think I will move on. The ladies around the billiard table can howl their
heads off. I want to get back to what I was making before I started this
silly experiment.

I am going to send a bottle to Jeff Renner, and of course I am lucky to have
Wes Smith around the corner to offer his opinion.

But I don't think I'll bother much making any more of this watery crap.

Now that I've proved I can, that's good enough.

I want to get back to my peach wheat beer. That one really knocked the
scones off the girls. They thought they wanted to play pool, but they all
The alcohol content derived from the peach juice I never properly
calculated. But the effect was amazing!!

Cheers
Phil




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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:06:43 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: Turkish wine

Joseph,

You don't mention whether the grapes available are winegrapes or eating
grapes.  There is a difference.  Next question - are they of an adequate
beaume (ie sugar content)? Should be 10 (bare minimum) to 14.  Measure some
juice with your hydrometer.  If low add sugar, as in fruit wine. Can you
measure the pH?  Adjust must to 3.2 to 3.5, greater resistance to
contamination.  Add SO2 to about 25 PPM.

For reds, crush and try to destem (bad flavours in the stems) and ferment on
the skins for about a week, plunge twice daily to keep skins wet.  Press and
discard skins. For whites just press nad discard skins. Try to keep below
15C if you can.  When ferment has finished (a number of weeks) rack off the
lees.  Purge the receiving vessel with CO2 (I use dry ice).  Does with SO2
each time.

Good luck!

Lyndon Z

Lyndon Zimmermann
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:06:36 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: Champagne Corks & La Fin Du Monde

John Lovett asked about champagne corks.  The plastic ones you just push in
and wire down.  The dinkum cork corks required a special corking machine -
similar to a conventional corker (you may have seen in your brewshop if you
haven't actually used one) but with a flip down thingy under the quadrants,
to let the head of the cork out.

Of course, if you're trying to emulate methode champenoise you'll cap first
with a bidule for your bottle ferment, then later disgorge the lees and
cork.  How clear do you want your tripel?

Lyndon Z

Lyndon Zimmermann
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:23:57 -0400
From: Rick Pauly <flp2m at unix.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: HELP for acid stout

Normaly when I brew a dark beer I add CaCo3 to the mash to counteract the
acid of the dark grain but on this big gravity stout I must not have added
enough because the floavor I am getting with the beer know is that flavor I
would get if I did not add CaCO3 to the mash.

Is there any way to fix this beer? 
Something to add to counteract the acid? 
Brew something to blend with it?

Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA


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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:02:55 -0500
From: John C Van Hove <jvanhove at knology.net>
Subject: Quest for a Grain Mill

     Thanks for all of the great advice regarding grain mills!  With all of 
the bitter bickering that normally dominates the digest, I really didn't 
expect such an overwhelmingly positive response.  Out of almost twenty 
responses, there was not a single negative word about any mill and I got 
good words from happy owners of each of the five 2-roller grain mills I was 
considering.  Every response sounded like this: "I bought the XXX mill and 
I love it!"  Either these are all quality products or nobody wants to admit 
that they didn't select the perfect mill.  The JSP MALTMILL got the most 
votes from satisfied customers, but I think that might be a product of 
availability and/or time on the market.

     Here's what I got out of all the advice I received:

1) All five of the mills I'm considering are quality products.
2) A lot of brewers (in my sample) favor adjustable mills.
3) Quite a few brewers double-mill their grains.

     I'm curious about #3 above.  Several people told me that they run 
their grain through the mill twice, once at a coarser setting and then 
again on a finer setting to emulate professional 6-roller mills.  Is this a 
common practice among the grain brewers out there?  I'll have to think 
about that one for a while.

     Anyway, I'm convinced that I'd probably be happy with any of the five 
mills I was looking at.  On HBDer advice, I'll make sure to buy an 
adjustable mill and consider double-milling my grains.  I think the 
deciding factor in my quest for a mill is a conversation I had recently 
with a homebrew supply shop manager.  This guy had a Valley mill in his 
shop, and he said it was a great mill, but he was all excited about Dan 
Listermann's new Phil Mill 2.  With everything else being about equal, I 
think I'll try the gadgetman's new product.  I'll let you know how it works 
out.

Thanks for the help,
VH



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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:43:29 -0700
From: "Norm Hardy" <nhardy at connectexpress.com>
Subject: Decoction mashing views of a Bavarian

To decoct or to not:

A few years ago (3, I think) here in Seattle the late Liberty Malting Supply
put on a workshop for craft and home brewers.  The featured speaker was
Ayinger's Prez and brewmaster Franz Inselkammer.  He is a personal friend of
Charlie Finkel, then the boss of Merchant duVin (the importer of many fine
Euro imports).

Inselkammer showed on an overhead the brewing procedures and specs for the
Ayinger beers.  We took note that only the dunkel was triple-decocted.  The
rest were made by single decoction, as I recall.

Later I asked him about infusion mashing vs decoction mashing.  His reply
(the heart of this posting) :

"Decoction mashing gives a robust beer.  Infusion mashing gives an elegant
beer."

He said that Koelsch beers were considered elegant.  But he didn't speak
negatively of infusion mashed beer.  He just loved making and drinking well
made beers.

I wonder if Aying now have changed their brewing procedures.  Their bottles'
labels continue to claim brewing by the 1516 purity law so maybe they have
also stuck to decoction mashing in "proper" Bavarian (don't say "German" to
Franz) fashion.



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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:19:01 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Tips on Visiting Koeln / Cologne (Part 5)

===============================
Eberplatz / Eigelsteintor / Em Koelsche Boor
===============================

Take the subway to Ebertplatz and get out there.  One end of the platform
says "Ebertplatz".  Come up there and you'll see signs poiting to the right
for Eigelsteinstrasse.  Then follow the Eigelstein arrows by turning left
before you come out of the subway - i.e. You'll come up out of the platform 
but still be underground, and the arrows will direct you first to the right,
then to the left.  Be careful after the right turn not to exit by walking
straight out and missing the left.  You'll come up where a busy street - 
Tuerinerstr - cuts the Ring at 90 degrees.  Look to your right down this 
street and you'll see the Dom looming above the buildings.  A little further 
to your right coming off this intersection at 45 degrees is a small street 
which when I was there was not marked at this end.  You only have to walk 
down that street - Greesbergstr - a short distance to the next intersection 
to find the Eigelsteintor - a part of the old Stadtmauer (City Wall) that 
was spared the wrecking ball in the late 1800's when city officials decided 
it was time to tear down the wall simply to make room for expansion.

All around the Tor (a "Tor" is a portal through the old city wall - most of
Cologne's Tors were similar spared the wrecking ball) is a
Fuessgaengerzone (Pedestrian Zone) and in the summer all the pubs
and cafes have tables spread all over the square.  There is a cute little
antique shop immediately to your right when you first come out onto the
Platz.  Through the Eigelsteintor and just a few doors up on the right on
Eigelsteinstr is Em K[CENSORED]lsche Boor, and old Brauhaus which 
will stick out quite obviously because it is such an old building compared 
to others around it.

I went in early on a Friday afternoon to enjoy a Gaffel 
K[CENSORED]lsch, and at this time of day the Kneipe was rather quiet 
with only a dozen customers.  I found the place to be a very friendly 
environment where most folks were Stammkunden (regulars).  Everyone 
used the informal "Du" with each other as they spoke in thick Koelle 
dialect which made it at times very difficult for me to decipher just what 
they heck they were talking about. Nonetheless the folks at the bar with 
me were very friendly and made sure to include me in the conversation 
as it went around the oval bar which completely surrounded the woman 
who was serving our drinks. Unfortunately I didn't stay long, and didn't 
eat there since I had just arrived from a Kotlett at Lommerzheim, but the 
food which was being served to the other customers looked and smelled 
terrific, and was served in generous servings.

One thing that stuck out to me during the 45 or 50 minutes I was there
was that the 40-or-so year old woman running the taps and bar was
actually doing a fair bit of drinking while she was there.  In Germany
it is legal to drink just about anywhere, and this includes on-the-job
(as long as your boss doesn't' mind).  As she was tapping the Gaffel
K[CENSORED]lsch for her customers, she was pouring off the excess 
foam and collecting it in a smaller glass she kept by the taps, then of 
course she would top the glass of Gaffel up for the customer.  When the 
glass she was collecting the foam in became full, she would down it 
once, then the next time pour it out.  Then she'd down one, then pour 
one out and so on.

The establishment itself was extensive with several large rooms going off
into areas I unfortunately did not get a chance to explore.  There also
appeared to be an upstairs, which at the time was roped off, preventing
access to it.  The interior was very similar to most of the other
Brauhaeuser I had visited, with darkly stained wood everywhere, and
darker stained glass in most of the windows.  Outside attached to the
front of the building were a couple of plaques boasting of the Kneipe's
involvement in Karneval celebrations.  Such a plaque indicates that
Stunksitzungen are held here in the weeks leading up to Karneval, for
anyone who may want to take part in one.

Elsewhere around Ebertplatz and the Eigelsteintor were a couple of other
older-looking Stammkneipen, though Em K[CENSORED]lsche Boor 
certainly seemed to be the oldest with the most history.  There are also 
a good number of newer, trendier pubs and restos scattered around the 
Tor, each with its own niche to fill.  This is definitely a great place to 
spend an afternoon sipping ber in the shadow of the old Stadtmauer 
(City Wall).

cheers,
 -Alan


"It must be light, because our Brewmaster says that the
 colour is a sign of Quality: The lighter a K[CENSORED]lsch, the
 better it tastes.  It must be light, because a lighter
 beer runs better over the tongue.  And it must be
 tastey, such that all henceforth will say :
 'Fr[CENSORED]h tastes really yummy'
"
  - PJ Fr[CENSORED]h (http://www.frueh.de/)

http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html










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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:06:18 EDT
From: MObucho829 at aol.com
Subject: Re:  Vegas?


In a message dated 9/8/0 11:19:45 PM, you wrote:

<<post@hbd.org>>

I am going to be in Las Vegas for the 1st week of Nov.  Is there anything 
beer worthy to visit?  Any suggestions for brew pubs or micros in the area 
will be appreciated.  E-mail if you like.

Matthew Obuchowski  {MObucho829 at AOL.com}
Chicago, IL


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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:25:13 -0700
From: "Eric J Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Subject: travelling beer

Regarding Jeff R'r's post on traveling woes, I have an anecdote.

OK- I just want to toot my own horn.

The Belgian White I brewed for the NHC AHA in Livonia was also bottled up
for a couple of competitions:  The Oregon State Fair, and the Michigan State
Fair.  I also sent a bottle off to Maryland with or own Globe Trotter, the
lecherous Ray Kruse, so that the guy I narrowly beat out for first place by
one point, could taste his defeat.

Chronologically, it went like this:
Brewed 5/12
AHA NHC
Very well received
Oregon State Fair
1st place
Rays tasting at Founders Ales (Grand Rapids, MI)     Very well received
Tasting the bottle sent to Maryland with Ray by Alan M. and Mike M. (no
relation)

Deemed not worthy of slug bait.
Michigan State Fair:
3rd Place

The only caveats I can think of:  Mike and Alan hate me for our off-line
debates. (and are insanely jealous)
The bottle I sent them was in PET, not glass.  Maybe O2 permeation affected
the flavor.
Ray "did" something in the beer, an act he vehemently denies.

I have a duplicate of the brew in the primary right now, waiting for the
next BJCP qualifier.

I hope Mike and Alan aren't judges at the next BJCP qualifier.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery.

PS- I don't really think Mike and Alan really hate me.  Even if they say so.
I suspect we are really love children from a common mother, separated at
birth.  These things happened in the 60's.
They may have gotten all the homosexual good looks, but I got all the
brewing skills and IQ points.






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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:13:04 -0500
From: "Bev D. Blackwood II" <blackwod at rice.edu>
Subject: 17th Annual Dixie Cup

The Foam Rangers are proud to announce the 17th Annual Dixie Cup 
Homebrew Competition, to be held October 20-21, 2000 in Houston, 
Texas.

This year's event is sanctioned by the AHA, BJCP and is a qualifying 
event for the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB)

This year's events include the traditional Fred Tasting, hosted by 
Fred Eckhardt, who will be pairing interesting beers with cheese. Our 
Saturday Milli-conference includes Canadian beer writer Stephen 
Beaumont, Dr. Paul Farnsworth and Fred Eckhardt.  After the 
Milli-conference, our own Louis Bonham will be conducting a seminar 
on measuring IBU's and headspace air, offering free testing to all 
paid entrants.

Deadlines for entries are October 6th (Regular entry fee: $6.00) or 
October 13th (Late entry fee: $10.00)  Forms and further information 
are available online via http://www.foamrangers.com (Forms are in PDF 
format.)

Fees to attend the Dixie Cup include all events except the pub crawl 
for $12.00 in advance, $15.00 at the door.  This year's pub crawl 
will be $13.00 in advance and $15.00 at the door.  Our hotel offers a 
$55.00 room rate for the event. (Be sure to ask for the Foam Rangers 
Homebrew Competition to get the correct rate.)
We hope to see you there!
 -BDB2

Bev D. Blackwood II
http://www.bdb2.com/


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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:53:09 EDT
From: RIPIC80 at aol.com
Subject: water and priming


  Does any one know how to translate mg/L to ppm?  My water analysis is in 
mg?l and all the literature I have shows the beer ions in ppm.
   Also, what's the "proper" or "purist"  way to prime?  I have done both, 
and found DME to produce a tighter head and last a little longer, but 
according to Dave Miller, the extract undergoes the same stages in 
fermentation, producing the byproducts. But, supposedly the purists don't 
want refined sugar in their all-malt beers.  Any input would be much 
appreciated.


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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:46:22 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: So What Have I(ie Phil) Achieved?

Phil Yates chides himself on "... encouraging an inordinate number of
rowdy and unruly Australian brewers to speak their mind in this forum."

Now, now Phil, don't be too hard on yourself - I am afraid that you have
yet to understand the significance of the movement that you have
created.  Let me explain .....

Over the many years that I have been on the HBD I learnt a lot about the
theory and practice of brewing, American brewing that is.  Sure the
theory is the same; but the books, equipment, ingredients and unit of
measure are all totally different.  But over the years I either overcame
the differences through a bit of research, or just learnt from my
mistakes (what do you mean their gallon is not the same as ours ? no
wonder the recipes don't come out right!)

The language (lingo) was also different, not just in the spelling, but
the same words had totally different meanings.  I just couldn't
understand why you guys were cooking marinated meat outside on your
'grills' ( we use a barbeque) when this device was something that we had
in our kitchens as part of the oven.  I won't even mention the problems
caused by the simple ozzie 'swing a cat' measurement system.

Now, this has all changed over the past year of so. Sure there are still
the differences of language and measurement,  but Phil's down to earth
approach has encouraged a number of ozzie lurkers to 'air their
ignorance' to the HBD public.  Both sides of the pond has benefited from
this, you (US) guys get to see a little bit of colour from down under,
and we get to feel a little bit more comfortable with a few familiar
accents around.  If Phil has indirectly increased the number of non-US
posts, then I believe that the HBD is the richer for it.

Now an ozzie post would not be complete without a mention of Mr Graham
Sanders.  

IIRC he hails from around Townsville and it is indeed a remote gateway
into our country.  On my visit there, there was no need to bring a
carton as Graham was not on duty that day.  Actually, I think that he is
just pulling our leg as they make you walk so far across the tarmac from
the plane to the terminal in the tropical heat, that you would collapse
from heat exhaustion if you attempted to carry ANYTHING with you.  And I
am a fairly solid bloke, although some have said that I have the
'shoulders of a brown snake'.  Don't worry about the noxious wildlife
getting you because you have to survive the airport first.

But Graham and I have a lot in common.  In a brewing sense, Newcastle is
just as remote as North Queensland.  All our ingredients have to be
imported from 'the big smoke', and the lack of fellow brewers means that
our brewing therapy is often taken on an individual rather than a group
basis.

But at least Newcastle now has one other grain fanatic (hi Stephen),
whereas Graham still appears very much alone.

Whose shout is it ?


David Lamotte
Brewing philosophically 
in Newcasle, N.S.W. Australia.


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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:27:27 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Decoction: to decoct, or not to decoct...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Several weeks ago, I brewed a hefeweizen using a single decoction. Tonight,
I brewed the same recipe without the decoction. More to come after bottle
conditioning...

 -p



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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:59:37 -0500
From: "pksmith_morin" <pksmith_morin at email.msn.com>
Subject: Hop utilization and timing

To the hop chemists in the community:

I recently tapped into Type 45 hops, and wanted to experiment with them in my
ESB.  These hops, SLO Goldings and Fuggles, carry a respective a.a.% of 10 and
7 (vs 5.25 and 5 for typical Type 90). Although I do not have other stats,
based on the literature I understand they carry an equally greater portion of
oils as well.

My question goes to time in the boil, and differential utilization of
essential oils.

Originally, when I was using Type 90 (and approximate a.a. of 5.25% and 5%), I
would employ, let's say, the following kettle hop charge:

3 oz SLO Goldings(5.25%) at 75 minutes before knockout, and 2 oz. Fuggles(5%)
at 15, for a calculated IBU of 38.3.

Faced with the "Super Hops" I now get, I decided to maintain the hop mass, but
decrease the time in boil, to wit:

2.75 oz SLO Goldings(10%) at 30 minutes before knockout, and (admittedly, a
significantly larger) 3 oz Fuggles (7%) at 15 before knockout.

The calculated IBU is about the same, 38.6.  I did this to gain some hop
character (v. keeping the time in boil the same and reducing the hop mass).

Now to my dilemma:

The beer is good, but I am getting what I would term a rather cloying,
fruity-bitterness, reminiscent of apricots or prunes baked too long, etc.  SLO
is a fruity hop, as I have used it elsewhere.  This is enjoyable for maybe a
pint, then it is simply "too much."  Part of this may be the significantly
larger amount of end-of-boil Fuggles.  But I have a nagging suspicion there is
something going on in the chemistry of the "30 minute before knockout" window.

Does anyone know of the specific chemistry of time in boil, and the
differential extraction of various oils?  I know that at the upcoming Midwest
Technical Conference, I believe it's David Ryder (Miller), will give a talk on
this very subject, "Hopping to Perfection," but in the meantime any thoughts
would be appreciated.

Cheers,


Paul Smith




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