---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  John Snow, Cholera, and a London Brewery (ensmingr)
  Naughty pictures! (Steve Lacey)
  Under modified grain/ yeast culturing (Steve Lacey)
  Home roasting ("Graham Sanders")
  Highly Salacious Admonitions ("Dr. Pivo")
  re: Sherry-like flavor from open boil (Nathan Kanous)
  CAP (Jeff Renner)
  plastric carboys (TDLogan)
  DMS diatribe ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Saw Dust ("Hill, Steve")
  Cloudy beer from English malt (Paul Shick)
  Question on Weissheimer Pils malt (Paul Shick)
  Pounded-Over-The-Head Beers/Ginger Mead (Richard Foote)
  Imperial Stout Recipe (Richard Foote)
  Re: Harsh flavour ("Daniel C Stedman")
  The wort thickens (Althelion)
  I apologize for the non beerness of this post... ("Aaron Gallaway")
  really bad beer books (AlannnnT)
  chloramination (JPullum127)
  Re: Harsh Flavours ("Warren White")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:22:50 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: John Snow, Cholera, and a London Brewery

I was recently reading E.D. Tuft's book, Visual Explanations
(1997, Graphics Press, Cheshire, CT) and found a story that
will surely interest some HBD readers.

In 1854, Dr. John Snow, Queen Victoria's anesthesiologist,
began his investigation of a serious cholera epidemic that
occurred in a small area of London and eventually killed
about 600 residents. By mapping the number of deaths due to
cholera, Snow showed there was a high concentration of
deaths near the water pump on Broad and Cambridge Streets.
He concluded that the pump was the source of cholera and
recommended its closure, presumably saving London from a
more serious epidemic. (Many modern epidemiologists are
critical of Snow's supposed demonstration of cause and
effect, but that's another story.)

Interestingly, Snow notes in his text ("On the Mode of
Communication of Cholera"):
"There is a brewery in Broad Street, near to the pump, and
on perceiving that no brewer's men were registered as having
died of cholera, I called on Mr. Huggins, the proprietor. He
informed me that there were above seventy workmen employed
in the brewery, and that none of them had suffered from
cholera -- at least in severe form -- only two having been
indisposed, and that not seriously, at the time the disease
prevailed. The men are allowed to drink a certain quantity
of malt liquor, and Mr. Huggins believes they do not drink
water at all; and he is quite certain that the workmen never
obtained water from the pump in the street. There is a deep
well in the brewery, in addition to the New River water."

Tuft says there is now a pub at the site of the Broad Street
pump that is appropriately named after John Snow. Has anyone
been to this pub? What's it like? Does anyone know the name
of the original Broad Street brewery (on Broad and New
Streets, according to Snow's map) and if they are still in
existence, even if at a different location? Time for you
Brits to chime in!

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:35:53 +1100
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Naughty pictures!

Talking about graphic URLs, Aj verily said: "Now I suppose we could argue
that I might post a URL which I claim is a picture of a pycnometer but which
is really a picture of yours truly ... in the altogether. I give you my word
of honor that I would never do that but can we count on our antipodal
cousins in this regard? (Don't take offense down there. The only thing I
don't like about Oz is the plane ride)."

I suppose you were expecting some cheap and predictable off-topic responses
to this. Well, let not me be the one to disappoint!

We Orstrarlyans may be a bit uncouth and occasionally ill-mannered, but that
does not mean we have a penchant for thrusting unsolicited smutty pictures
of ourselves, our significant others, our insignificant others, or even
complete strangers for that matter, on to anyone! Now solicited smutty
pictures, that is a different matter all together.. I should also declare
that Graham "Burradoo" Sanders and I have workshopped up a marvelous
brewer's fantasy involving a certain Orstrarlyan former super-model (i.e
Elle). It basically consists of Elle, me/Graham, and a bath-tub full of
steaming warm spent brewing grains. Now, if a picture of that could be
conjured into being, and it was posted to such a URL graphic site-thingy,
the question is this. Would it be off-topic?

Oh, by the way Aj, no offense taken, mate! And no offense in return, but I
wish we could say the same thing about the US vis a vis the plane ride!

Steve Lacey



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:36:19 +1100
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Under modified grain/ yeast culturing

Now, a brewing post.

I brewed yesterday and the afore-mentioned Graham Sanders needs a big public
thank you. I had been experiencing some problems with some local pale base
malt. Malted under specs for a big local brewer (CUB, you know, of Fosters
fame) and it is a bit under-modified. We suspect that is to give plenty of
dextrins to support the 90% sugar in the grist. My problems had been
achieving conversion within a reasonable time-frame with my basic
garden-variety infusion set up. Graham suggested a mash of 64 deg C for 1
hour (at least we still use imperial time measurement) followed by a 68 deg
rest for 30 min. It worked a treat. I can recommend this mash to any others
working with under-modified malt. A mash-out step up to 72 certainly
wouldn't hurt either (Wes Smith recommended that) but I did not try it on
this occasion.
- -----------------------
I was hoping to boast about how I had achieved reasonable success yeast
culturing using very basic sterilisation procedures. Just boiling the dishes
and media rather than pressure cooking it (I don't have one). Well, I'm
afraid I can't. The plates were looking good for a few days, and then the
little white colonies went from white, to off-white to fuzzy to yerk. There
is some yeast there too, but you wouldn't call it a raging success. So,
chalk that one up to experience folks and do give serious thought to buying
that pressure cooker you see at the next garage (yard) sale. Mind you, I
have had success using sterile disposable plastic petri-dishes, so that may
be an option for the pressure cooker and autoclave deprived.

Steve Lacey

PS Phil, did you mean nobody had seen Graham's head eating fish, or Graham's
head-eating fish? I'm a little confused here!



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:47:38 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Home roasting


G'day All

Now if those pesty cockies can keep quiet long enough I will try to cover
this topic.
Never mind my brew room gets put on the back burner for all you HBDers that
are interested.  I tell you, if I dont at least get the roof on by the wet
season there will be hell to play.  You'll never hear the end of it.

So why first.  One thing I love about this hobby is the directions it takes
you. For me home roasting was definitely a necessity.  Up in the wilds of
Nth Queensland tropical fruits just abound, but shit not a malt house within
coo-ee.  In the early days of brewing you were lucky to get even schnooner
malt.  And when you got it, it was about as fresh as a maggot riddled roo.
This is where I first started my experimentation.  A quick roast of these
grains in the oven brought the stalest grains at least some respectability.

Over the years things improved and crystal malt started turning up, as well
as fresh schnooner malt. All well and good, but our crystal was (and still
is to this day) unknown in spec and colour.  Because of the small demand for
the stuff from the mega breweries,  malting houses only make small amounts
to order.  The dregs are swept up and shipped to home brew shops.  So one
batch could be Crystal 80, the next Crystal 40.  Worse the home brew stores
didn't check.  Even worse the malting houses would store up the dregs, til
they had enough, blend them together and on sell them to home brew stores.
All round not to good for the serious craftbrewer.

Now today you can get a fairly good range, thou its near dam impossible to
get speciality grains like Special B, smoked malt or brown malt, and the
supply of the rest is at best inconsistant.  So for me home roasting became
a necessity, but it also has one benefit that many craftbrewers really
overlook.

I have said it before, its like buying freshly baked bread and day old
bread, you CAN taste the difference.  Roasting just a small portion of your
speciality malt gives a wonderful 'fresh bread' taste to your beer (well not
exactly bread, but you get my drift).  What I mean is that you can actually
taste the freshness in the final product.  Now again this is another example
of getting an extra 0.01% improvement in your grog, but it does give it that
something extra.

So enough of my ramblings, lets get into it.  What equipment do you need.
Just an oven therometer, nothing more (and of course SWMBO oven comes in
handy, and her cooking trays).  Why I'll explain later.  Now you could buy a
mercury glass one that goes up to 300c, but there is a far cheeper option.
Go into those cooking shops, and look for those flat metal ones the size of
a twenty cent piece (ok yanks work that one out).  They are basical a coil
spring, with the temp written on the metal face. As they heat up the metal
expands in the spring and the dial move.  Now yes they ARE NOT ACCURATE, but
they are perfect for the job in hand, and they only cost about $10.00. You
can handle them hot, drop them, throw them in anger, ideal.

Now you need a tray for the grain.  Anything that hold about an inch layer
will be ideal.  Ah crap I hear, I have one but SWMBO has cooked in it.  No
big deal, line it with Aluminium Foil will be fine.

Now why the therometer you ask, i have a you beaut oven where I can dial in
the temp, the local radio station even pick up the police band.  Well those
dials are sedom accurate and the sensor is actually on the wall of the oven,
not on the
grain.  You need to take the temp at the grain surface.  Thats where these
metal ones are great too. you can sit them on top of your grain, and look
throu the window of your oven at the temp of the grain. great for failing
eyes.

So as i cover this over the next couple of issues what should you do first.
Well thats easy, get to know your oven. True its probably more appealing
than getting to know SWMBO, (and easier to control) but you need to know
what your oven actually
does. Set your MT tray roughly in the middle (wonder how long it will take
some to work that out), and set the dial at 100c.  See what temp it flattens
out at, do it again at at say 150c and so on.  See what temp variations
occur.  Also see how different tray level affect the temp.

So what are you after.  two things.
1. You need to know what to actually dial in on the dial on the oven for a
given temp.
2. You need minimum varations in temp.  A lot of ovens have so called 'hot
spots' these are to be avoided.  Normally set your tray(s) near the middle
of the oven.

Ok next the basic principles involved

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh

all this talk about whether to boil with the lid off, or on to avoid that
pesty sherry flavour.  To me it took a physics to sort it out and not
chemistry.  I've seen the burners you lot over there use.  Looks like the
left overs from the space shuttle and I bet they pack a punch.  I also bet
that the problem. You only need enough heat to get it a rolling boil, not
try to get lift off. I use a simple 3 ring LPG burner. Not the hotest thing
to arround, but it gets a nice rolling boil after an hour.  Why the hell you
need to try to melt the bottom of your boiler I do not know.

Like all things in life, everything in moderation.





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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:52:58 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: Highly Salacious Admonitions

They scratch their heads about it, until the scabs of previous
contemplation float down from their temples like flakes of polluted snow.

They pound their keyboards about it, until their hands become bloody
stumps, hammering out the same tireless theme.

They admonish, cajole, warn, badger, threaten, parry, thrust, and SHOUT
about it...

 ... but they can't make it.

Yes, the "'ol dreaded" seems to take the shape of childhood ghosts
floating out of the closet at night, and yet not a single admonisher of
this select faith has ever been able to create it.

That is, they THINK they might have created it.... but never bothered to
pin the guilt on the suspect, without giving it a "fair trial".  Was it
that singular splashing event that turned that particular brew into "doodie"?

 ...or was it something else... or even perhaps a combination of things?

You would think that with the Vesuvius-like volumes of hot air blown on
the subject, and the Pompei-like status of the "same old, same old" that
has infected homebrewing internet forums, SOMEONE could tell us that
they did "this" at "this time" for "this long" to half of a brew.....
and it was a very different creature at "this age" in its life, compared
to the same brew that never got "those".

I tried.  I couldn't make it.

I wish someone else would do something other than prophesize.

In light of the representatives of a few professional interests
(Anheuser Busch, the Seibel Institute) saying: "I wouldn't worry about
it".... why does the tirade continue?

I thought I knew the answer to this, and that it was simple:

If you have been going around for years, saying to The Emperor: "Gosh!
Your new outfit looks just smashing!"... then it might not be too easy
to suddenly shout: "CHRIST!!!!  I CAN SEE YOUR WINKY-TINK, EMPEROR!!!"

At least I thought that was the complete explanation, until I was
thumbing through a journal the other day, and came across the following article:

"A Link Between Iodophore Exposure and Obsessive Compulsive Neurosis"

It's the "non-rinse sanitiser" they've been drinking! 

They can't help themselves!

It seems that some animal experimental models were performed, using lab
rats and cane toads.  The lab rats were given iodophore drenched
pellets, and the cane toads given cane beetles fricasseed in iodophore.

Both groups had decreased serotonin levels (a chemical messenger in the
brain), and the dopaminergic axis was way off compared to the
controls.... and the compulsive behaviour was very apparent using the
standard NQ Graham Scale.

You may have thought that doctors operate on people to make them more
healthy?..... Nooooo.  It's the "scrubs" making them do it.  They
immerse their hands in Betadine, go in and operate, and just as they
finish, the iodophore starts kicking in, forcing the obsessive thought:
"I gotta' cut something open,  I gotta' cut something open", and they
go out and scrub up again, and begin a new cycle of compulsive
behaviour, all in the need to relieve anxiety.... and it just goes on
and on.... er, sort of like the HSA edicts.

Probably the most interesting part of this research was when they
investigated individuals drinking more than the USFDA's (United States
Funny Diet Administration) current recommendation of "two quarts a day"....

 .... Now let's pause right here.  I know that there are many people out
there who get very irritated at the mention of words like "quarts". You
think: "C'mon Yanks! Get with the program! Find a system of weights and
measures that is divisible by 10.... and not 2, 3, 12, 28, 36 and any
other number you can think of!"

Well, that's just not being very charitable, and I think a look at the
historical background of this system, might help you be more
understanding of it usage and persistence:

It seems King George was mightily irritated at the settler's attitude
towards, and reaction to the "Tea tax".  He decided then and there, that
he would make up a system of weights and measures that would be so
incomprehensible, that it would forever shackle those pesky colonists in
confusion.  And that night, he put together everything from the
"firkin", to the "BTU".  He sat well into the late hours, giggling to
himself: "Hmmmmm. Let's see: If you put a "pound" together with some of
your "feet", you get a "SLUG"!... Now that's a good one!"

Imagine his delight when they bought it!  He chortled, snickered, and
wet his funny little three quarter length eighteenth century pants with
joy when he heard the news!

I know there are those cynical ones among you that view this obscure
system as a form of "protectionism", and think: "Yeh sure. They always
have to have their own standard for EVERYTHING, just so the public there
won't find out that imported products can be cheaper and better.", but
that's just not the case!.... They just haven't got Georgie's "little
joke" yet.

So, now that you have hopefully gained a bit more respect for this
culturally endowed system, I will look up what "two quarts" are on my
conversion table:

Two quarts are exactly equal to.... 3 and 17/64 inches!... er wait,
wrong line.  Here it is... use a "T" drill, and a 0-80 thread.... unless
of course you want it in NPT in which case you should use "schedule 80"
pipe. Otherwise we could put it in "ounces", as long as you know if you
want them "wet" or "dry", because they obviously can NOT be the same.

Now. Back to the case of these really overindulgent sanitizer quaffers:

It turns out the the REALLY excessive imbibers contract a rare condition
known as "Gilles de la Tourettes Syndrome".

This unusual neurological condition, is marked by "twitching" or
"ticks", that are not limited to movement, but include speech. Repeated
patterns, and almost without exception inappropriate to the
circumstances in which they present themselves.  They burst in
uncontrollably, in the midst of normal behaviour, and then the
individual returns to the previous behaviour pattern, as if there had
been no interruption. The words, or phrases that insert themselves in
ordinary conversation, can quite often be obscenities.

Since the increasing consumption of "Non-Rinse", the following scene is
ever more frequently beginning to pop up at the "squawk box" of a
"drive-thru" McDonalds:

"Hi. Can I take your order please?"

"Yeh.  I'll have a Big Mac-HSA!HSA!HSA!- a large order of-PITCHING
RATES!PITCHING RATES!PITCHING RATES! - fries. A
medium-SANITIZE!SANITIZE!SANITIZE!- sized coke.  A filet o'
fish.-CLINITEST!CLINITEST!CLINITEST!- Oh. and you
better-BOTULISM!BOTULISM!BOTULISM!- let me have a cup of coffee.-HSA!HSA!HSA!"

And as the driver pulls up:

"Here's your order sir.  Be careful of the coffee. It's VERY hot."

 ... and as the guy in the funny little paper hat glances downward from
his serving window:

"And I CERTAINLY wouldn't spill it!  CHRIST!!!  I CAN SEE YOUR
WINKY-TINK!" 



"better a tongue in cheek, than your head up your (*)" 


Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:13:32 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: re: Sherry-like flavor from open boil

Hi All,
Alastair (love that name!) mentions thermal loading as a possible cause in 
the development of sherry flavors in beers and seems to recommend a "low 
rolling boil" as a possible remedy.  Good thought.

However, he then follows this with a citation from Fix's Principles of 
Brewing Science which indicates that excessive wort evaporation could be a 
culprit as well.

Dave Burley insists that using a 5/6 covered boil reduces 
oxidation.....Alastair contends that a 5/6 covered boil would reduce 
thermal load.  I contend that the 5/6 covered boil would also reduce 
evaporation (back to Fix).

Reducing evaporation (ala Fix) and reducing thermal load (ala Alastair) by 
using a 5/6 covered boil could potentially reduce the development of these 
off flavors and leads right into Dave's lair of insisting that a 5/6 
covered boil is better than open.  Now whether Dave is correct in chemical 
theory or Alastair, the result would seem to be quite similar...they would 
both recommend a 5/6 covered boil.  DMS should be able to easily escape in 
that size opening.

Just my thoughts....
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:32:33 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: CAP

>Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com> writes
>Eric Ahrendt writes:
>"If you do make the trip to Capital (highly recommended) make sure to try
>Kirby's 1900. One of the few commercial examples of CAP around."
>
>IMHO Capital 1900 is not very good.  I detect a very strong creamed corn
>note in it (DMS?)  which I don't think should be so strong in a lager.

I'm afraid I have to agree - it's a disappointment.  I was looking 
forward greatly to tasting the 1900 after the draft version brewed 
for the Great Taste of the Midwest beer festival two years ago.  That 
version was much cleaner, although still underhopped by my taste. 
The new bottled version has that stinky note (I can't say it smells 
like creamed corn to me, though) that Point Special beer (Stevens 
Point, WI) had until the last two or three years, when brewer John 
Zappa (yes, he's a cousin) cleaned it up.  The smell always reminded 
me a bit of the sulfury smells coming from the central Wisconsin 
paper mills.

>Maybe we need to define just exactly what a CAP is.  Is Leinenkeugel's
>Original Lager a CAP?  The label states that it's been brewed with the same
>recipe since 1867 (I think).  Wouldn't this make it a CAP?

We have defined what a CAP is, or at least BJCP has.  Most 
importantly, I think, is that the bitterness should be 25-40 IBU. 
Leinie ain't a CAP, by those standards.  I would love to find out 
just what justification they have for making that claim.  I'm pretty 
sure that in 1867 they were hopping a whole lot higher than now, 
which is low teens, I'd bet.

>   Or is a CAP just
>a label put on "caft beers" by snobs who are ashamed to say they like
>American Pilsners and so create something to differentiate their beer from
>other American Pilsners?  I would go so far as to say those people simply
>*guess* that over emphasis of DMS and underemphasis of hops is what beer
>tasted like in those days

A bit of DMS is OK, but I'm not sure if that's what the stink is in 
1900.  I tend to be a bit smell blind on DMS.  But I certainly like a 
cleaner CAP.

Jeff

- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:51:35 -0500
From: TDLogan at arecns.ksu.edu
Subject: plastric carboys

Brew friends (fiends)-
I was wearily assisting my wife with the grocery shoping over the 
weekend and noticed at the self service water dispenser, 3 gal blue 
plastic carboys.  Hmm, looks interesting.  Type 3 on the recycle 
symbol.  Only $5 +/-.  Are these things any good?  How about the 
5 gallon ones you see in the friendly office water cooler?  I'm sure I 
have read some where that these are good/bad, but the lost brain 
cells are gaining ground!

They look like a good way to make a test batch or split up a batch 
for comparison.

Did find some stainless steel scrubbies for racking out of the 
kettle, so it wasn't a wasted trip.

Moved a month ago and are having brewing withdrawl!  Still looking 
for all the parts and pieces.  And almost OUT of home brew!  Too 
hot lately anyway, 100 degrees + almost every day since I got 
here. 

Tom Logan
Manhattan, KS


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:02:44 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: DMS diatribe

Doug throws out some bait for a rant by saying:
>> I detect a very strong creamed corn
note in it (DMS?)  which I don't think should be so strong in a lager.  I'm
sure Kirby was going for that flavor, as it is a characteristic of the
style, but over did it.  <<
   There is a possibility that the beer was a bit old, DMS will tend to
assert itself a little more strongly after the effects of HSA and CSA
have muted the malt and hop character.

>>Or is a CAP just
a label put on "caft beers" by snobs who are ashamed to say they like
American Pilsners and so create something to differentiate their beer from
other American Pilsners?  <<
   Quite the contrary; the style came about because we noticed what the
contemporary beer factories have done to a respectable beer style.
That all the factories mutilated a style that we are trying to restore in
an
effort to show American beer is not historically wimpy tasteless 
wizzwater.

>>I would go so far as to say those people simply
*guess* that over emphasis of DMS and underemphasis of hops is what
beer tasted like in those days<<
  It is not a *guess*, 2 nearby regionals that brew post-prohibition
recipes
use a 2 hour hot whirlpool to bring out the DMS character. If you can find
Rolling Rock on tap (so you don't taste the skunking) try 1 and see if the
DMS in Kirby's 1900 approach that level. You may be reacting to a
flavor that is not tasted often these days and all the talk of
"DMS=infection,
DMS=too-slow cooling, DMS=bad" has skewed your perception. A properly
balanced CAP would have DMS and diacetyl reinforcing the "grainy corn"
character without becoming distinct characters unto themselves. Perhaps
the 1900 is not that great of an example if that's how you found it?
   The BJCP guidelines specify up to 40 IBUs, with a bitterness matching
Anchor Steam how is this 'underemphasis of hops'?

>>Another
example are the many American IPAs which are just loaded with hops.  It's a
hoppy style, of course, but I think it is sometimes overdone. <<
    I somewhat agree here, if current brewers could remember Ballantine
IPA it may be a help; but the point where I have a complaint about the
current American IPAs is the excessive hop flavor and aroma. No real
problem here, I simply don't drink them. An assertive bitterness is one
thing
but the current race to see who can use the most hops in their beer is
out of hand. Taste Pilsner Urquel and Anchor Steam, both pushing 40
IBUs but with some malt character to balance, both are enduring
classics.

The beer factories have made the universally "acceptable" beer:
no DMS, to avoid the "cream corn in my beer?"
no diacetyl, to avoid "it tastes buttery"
no hops, to avoid "it's bitter"
no malt, to avoid "it's sweet"
 Problem is they removed the 4 players in a classic pilsner flavor
profile. If they remove much more they'll be selling watered down vodka.
_That's_ why we make CAP!


Was that too constructive to qualify as a diatribe??
         N.P. Lansing



 


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:50:19 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: Saw Dust

I am looking to add some "barrel" to my barley wine soon.  I know that some
of the wine kits on the market have "saw dust" to add to primary to give it
that yummy oaky taste.  I am looking to buy some of this "saw dust." .  I do
not like using the "chips."  Does anyone know where this "saw dust" can be
purchased?

private emails welcome

thanks
Steve


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:02:16 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Cloudy beer from English malt


Hello all,

     I justed wanted to add a data point/gripe to the latest
round of discussion about cloudy beers brewed from English
malt.  For the third time in as many years, I seem to have gotten
a bag of very inferior English pale malt.  My symptoms include
lower than expected extract, along with very persistent chill
haze.  I'm pretty certain it's not a starch haze, because the
wort was very clear going into the kettle, but the beer is still
quite cloudy after 2 months in the keg.  Ah well....

     My problems have all arisen from Munton's malts (both their
Marris Otter and standard pale,) although there have been some 
very nice bags mixed in with the problem lots.  Others have recently
had problems with Beeston's (although my own experience with their
malts has been trouble free.)  It's gotten to the point where I
plan to avoid English malts entirely for the foreseeable future.
Given the availability of good quality American Pale ale malts (from
Briess, among others,) I think it's time that we homebrewers stopped
acting as a dumping ground for the rejects from English maltsters.

                  Paul Shick
                  Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:06:55 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: Question on Weissheimer Pils malt


Hello all,

    Some recent posters suggested that some of this year's
Weissheimer Pils malt was much less modified than some
previous year's lots.  Can those who posted (or others)
provide lot numbers (and maybe Kolbach indices,) so that
those of us with large stockpiles of Weissheimer Pils can
act accordingly?  Thanks in advance for any information.

                Paul Shick
                Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:14:08 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Pounded-Over-The-Head Beers/Ginger Mead

I agree with Doug Hurst when he wrote:

>What I'm getting at is that just because one particular 'style exemplifying'
>flavor is highly emphasized does not mean that a beer is good or exactly
>what the beer should taste like.   I think that subtlety in flavor is better
>than being pounded over the head with it like an Oliver Stone movie.

There can be a tendency to brew over the top beers in an effort to meet
style quidelines.  This is something I have noticed from judging homebrew
competitions.  Damn it, if an oktoberfest is supposed to be malty, then
it's gotta be smack you upside the head malty.  If an IPA is supposed to be
hoppy, then let there be no doubt as to it's hoppiness.  This is sometimes
to the detriment of balance and enjoyablity of the beer.  

I have also noticed that there have been times when some of the winning
beers in the "Winners Circle" in Zymurgy have been rather over the top.
For example, I think I recall a winning beer that was something like 8
points over the maximum OG of the style.  This doesn't happen all that
often, but does help bolster the point.  The temptation to over exaggerate
is there.  I have done it myself.

John Leggett asks about "dry gingering" mead and the concern over
introduction of bacteria.  I once made a blackberry ginger mead that I dry
gingered in the bottle.  I dropped a 1/2" cube of raw ginger in each wine
bottle.  The alcohol of the finished mead seems to have prevented any
noticeble bacterial infection.  I do not have access to my brewing records
right now to determine how much ginger I used in the boil, but this amount
of ginger in the bottle did not IMO overwhelm.

Hope this helps.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:40:19 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Imperial Stout Recipe

Hi all,

Does anyone out there have a good all-grain imperial stout recipe they'd
like to share?  Our club, Chicken City Ale Raisers, will be brewing one in
early October.   Private e-mails welcome.


TIA,
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:40:38 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: Re: Harsh flavour

Hello Edward - let me start by saying that I feel your pain. My entire first
year of all-grain brewing produced quite a few less than perfect beers, but
since has improved after being more diligent about the following:

Make sure you are pitching lots of happy, healthy yeast. This alone can make all
the difference in the world. Look at www.brewery.org and www.wyeastlabs.com for
lots of info on this. I myself pitch a smack pack into 500 ml, step it up to
3000 ml, and then pitch the resulting yeast solids into a 10 gallon batch.

For insulation, I went to the local home supply store and got some foily air
duct insulation - works great!

Avoid the direct heat on the mash unless you have a way of recirculation the
wort or stirring the mash. I would say stick with the single infusion into a
well-insulated mash tun until you have the bugs worked out. On a related note, I
have a thermometer mounted in a port on the side of my kettle and that threw me
off on a regular basis because it would often show that the temp had fallen to
the low 140's (after which I would rush to try and get the temp back up). After
getting a probe thermometer, I came to the realization that the mash was staying
a consistent temp while the wort near the sides of the kettle was cooling off a
bit (which is easily solved by a little stirring or recirculation).

Pay attention to your mash pH and the pH of your sparge water (especially if you
have hard water). I was getting some astringency due to my extra hard water
keeping my pH up in the 6's ( at  70 F), which is way too high and extracts
unwanted tannins.The ColorpHast ph papers work well for me. Acidify your sparge
water down to the upper 5's with lactic acid and check to be sure that your mash
starts out around 5.3-5.5 ( at  70 F). If your mash pH is too high, try adding a
little gypsum  or lactic acid.

Batch sparging, along with the above pH measures, will remove any remaining
possibility that you are extracting unwanted tannins. To do this, increase the
grain bill by 1/4th (since your efficiency will be reduced by this method),
drain your first runnings into your boil kettle, add the bulk of your sparge
water to the mash all at once, stir, recirculate until clear again, and drain it
into your boil kettle. This will save you all of that sparging time and produce
a slightly more flavorful beer to boot (IMHO)!

Don't let your initial problems get you down - I'm sure everyone on this forum
as experienced the same heartbreak of a beer gone wrong at some point (or
multiple points, in my case!). It will all come together in time...

dan




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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:48:25 EDT
From: Althelion at aol.com
Subject: The wort thickens

Clap on....

Well, now this 5~6 closed boil issue has shifted towards the comparative 
effects of the various levels of boil vigorousity (intensity). This George 
Fix thing of boiling down a 5.6 gallon wort to 5 gallons would either be 
accomplished in 20-30 minutes of a full boil or maybe 60 minutes of a tomatoe 
sauce simmer. Either way doesn't seem feasible to me. I've always accepted 
the notion that a vigorous boil was important to the chemical reactions in 
the wort including hop utilization. I observed a definite increase in hop 
utilization when I went from stovetop to cajun cooker. In fact, the primary 
reason I switched from stovetop to cajun cooker was to increase the intensity 
of my boil.

So now my question is: To what extent will the decrease in boil intensity 
mitigate the alleged improvements of a 5~6 closed pot?

Clap off.



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:15:13 GMT
From: "Aaron Gallaway" <baseball_junkie at hotmail.com>
Subject: I apologize for the non beerness of this post...

To All and ONE...


I am living in Japan and come from Tacoma Washington. A month or so ago I 
posted a question about brewing software and received a message from a 
gentleman ALSO from Tacoma named Larry. Well Larry if your out there please 
e-mail me as I have lost your address. I am coming back to Tacoma next week 
and wanted to get in touch and talk beer.

Hope to hear from you...


Aaron
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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:21:37 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: really bad beer books

Since one thread is about brewing books, I'd like to excerpt the worst beer 
and brewing book ever written. <IMHO!> I know that you will think I am making 
this up, but alas, it is true, this is from a book published by an otherwise 
legitimate publisher.  

>From the Everything Beer Book, written by Carlo Devito, published by the 
Adams Media Corporation, 1998.  ISBN 1-55850-843-0

>From the glossary -

Alt. "Old" in German, as in altbier, meaning old beer. (pg 294) 

porter. Almost black, porter is a bitter dark lager. (pg 301) 

bitter. An English ale brewed with high hop content. (pg 295)

gravity. A weighing system used to measure the heaviness of a beer. When a 
beer is said to have gravity, it means it has body and heft. In actuality, it 
judges the amount of hops in a beer. (pg 297) (yes, he said hops!)

Trappist. A bottle conditioned, sugar added lager made by monks (pg 302)

 Tripel. Dutch, meaning a brewer's strongest beer. Can be a lager, but most 
often is an ale.
- ----------
This is from the Using a Hydrometer section, page 242.

The second reading is done after you've finished brewing your beer. This is 
the final gravity. The second reading will always register less than the 
first because there is more alcohol than water and alcohol is lighter than 
water. If your second reading is higher than your first, it means that the 
fermentation isn't finished. 

Also from the hydrometer section,
(after taking your hydrometer reading) Throw out the beer you tested. It may 
be contaminated. Don't taste it. 

>>>note, remember, I am not making this stuff up. This is really from a 
published author!

>From the section on beer tasting;

Smokiness is added by malting the grain over an open fire.

>From the homebrewing section;
 
It is a good thing that most kits come with malt extract syrup, because 
making your own is too difficult for the novice brewer.  It's like making a 
pie from scratch without ever having baked before.  That said, there is 
something wrong with a brewery that uses malt extracts. Beer that is 
mass-produced with malt extracts is usually an inferior beer. These breweries 
are called extract brewers. Many lawnmower beers are made that way. 

Also from homebrewing section-
Another popular kind of malt is roasted barley.   

 - And - 
About hops in homebrewing.
Never add the hops at the beginning of the boil, only in the last fifteen 
minutes or so. If added too soon the hops will boil off. The resins, waxes, 
and oils will superheat and rise out of the pot in the whiffs of steam and 
float away. In the end your beer will taste like garbage. With hops, 
bitterness is added in the last fifteen minutes and aroma in the last five 
minutes of brewing.  >>note: Guys like John Palmer and Al K. should be 
especially incensed that this guy found a willing publisher, don't you think?

>From the section about Pasteurization. 
Pasteurization is a process designed to preserve food by superheating it 
first, followed by flash-freezing.

On methods of pasteurization, Mr. Devito writes;
The first (method) is to boil and cool the beer in the bottle in which it is 
going to be stored. 

On Pasteur, Mr. Devito writes;
His treatise also isolated and identified numerous yeast strains. 

 Elsewhere in the book, Mr. Devito states that sanke kegs are "galvanized" 
after each use, that "some brewers substitute cane sugar for barley, making 
the wort an all-sugar and water liquid", and that "corn, wheat, oats and rice 
are all used by larger breweries to cut some of the bitterness in beer 
because they provide more sugar", he notes that making steam beer is a 
"patented process", rauchbier can be made "by throwing fire-heated rocks into 
the malt", ice beer is "frozen either during the fermentation process or 
sometime after maturation", and on and on. 

Anyway, you get the idea. I called and wrote the publisher of this nonsense 
only to get brushed off with a form letter.  But don't go buy the book, I'll 
gladly send some xerox pages to anyone who asks, just so you can  touch a few 
pages before believing this exists. This small sample is only part of the 
scores of stupid statements in this book.

 Comments can be directed to the publisher at Adams Media Corp, 260 Center 
St., Holbrook MA 02343.
1-800-872-5627

Oh, and my favorite, last one, I promise- this is the entire definition for 
Berliner Weisse, (page 294)-

Berliner Weisse.  Also known as a wheat beer. Known for its very low 
alcoholic content, this is a milky, white-ish beer that is highly carbonated. 
(that's it!)

Ok, sorry for the long post, but I thought I'd give you all a look at a 
seriously bad beer/homebrew book. I learned with Charlie's book, and right 
now, Charlie never looked so good! 

Best Brewing,
Alan Talman



  


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:02:15 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: chloramination

my local water supply(omaha) just announced a switch to chloramination. i 
remember hearing in the past that you cannot boil this to drive off chlorine 
but need to add a camden tablet or something a few days previously to remove 
this chlorine. anybody have some facts for me on this? i wish i would have 
saved some of those old posts!


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:02:31 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Harsh Flavours

Edward Doernberg lets fly with a wee Freudian Slip...

Some of you may remember I posted about my first mashed beer having a *hash*
flavour. It is now carbonated and it is all but undrinkable. It is a
terrible harsh aftertaste that lingers on the back of the sides of the tong.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

My advice to you...

Beg, borrow or steal a  Cheech and Chong CD, ring your Local Pizza Hut 
Delivery, flop in your bean bag (make sure the dog still aint lying there, 
he'll want some of your pizza) and mellow out my man!

Maybe next time use some hops, instead of the highly resinous product you 
mention above, and most of all...

SEND ME A SLAB OF EM MATEY!!!!

Don't send a slab to Mr Graham Sanders, oops, retract the Mr. They'd throw 
the book at him for being a repeat offender and being in Townsville he 
wouldn't be found wanting for some anyway IMHO, absolutely DO NOT send any 
to the Burraddoo Hilton, it sounds like a cesspit for profanity, vice a 
little like the last days of Babylon (and the world's most mis-used pool 
table) and it does not mix well with Rice Lager anyway I can just see it now 
Rice & Resin Lager with Hemp Filtration "THIS BUD'S FOR YOU".

Errr... Either that or someone's spiked ya beer as a party trick, next time 
tell em to use chillies.

(We all now know the answer to that 23 year old mystery of; Who ate the 
Yabbie that ate Donald McKay)

Sorry Edward! I don't normally point out other people's peccadillos, but 
that was a good one mate!
(Heaven knows I make plenty of em myself, so feel free to exact revenge!)

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Better get back to the beer stuff...
* * * * * * * * * * * *

Sounds like you've got astringency or high tannin extraction.

You sound like you have a similar problem to what I used to have, I'd be 
inclined to check the temperature of your sparge water first, is it too hot? 
This is a bugger for creating astringency.

Secondly don't get greedy on your extraction efficiency, absolutely STOP 
your runoff when the S.G. of the runnings hits about 1012, believe you me 
doing this makes a big difference, you can probably stop at about 1010 for 
stouts/dark beers etc.

This was the biggest improvement I made on my mashes, getting that extra 
litre of extract just isn't  worth it.

Another idea I use, can't say for sure if it actually works, (only in beers 
without roasted grains) is to use 1ml of 88% pure food grade lactic acid in 
your sparge water, as the PH of mash rises towards the end of the sparge, 
(your Chemist should be able to help you with the Lactic Acid, but alas not 
the hashish).

Finally, it's very tempting to sparge your mash quickly (we all know it's a 
tedious job) DON'T. Do Insulate your Lauter Tun well and SPARGE SLOWLY i.e. 
it should take at least 1 hour for your regular 23 litre batch.

It's just too tempting to hurry it up, but believe me your extraction 
efficiency will suffer!

Hope this helps!
Warren White, Melbourne
Waiting for a Slab of Edward's M.E.P.A.
(Midnight Express Pale Ale)
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