---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  KROC World Brewers Forum (The Brews Traveler)
  New Lommerzheim website (Koeln / Cologne) ("Alan McKay")
  Disgruntled customer ("Steve")
  removal of water from beer & carbonating with N2/CO2 gas (Warandle1)
  beer action in orlando (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Re:Saw Dust (phil sides jr)
  re my harsh flavor (Edward Doernberg)
  Home Roasting ("Graham Sanders")
  John Snow ("Weaver, Joseph Todd  Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM")
  My Winter Project ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Demise of the HBD (MaltHound)
  Doc Pivo's Highly Salacious Admonitions ("Tony Clifton")
  Dr. Pivo (twitch) (Rod Prather)
  Wyeast 3522 Ardennes ("Gordon Strong")
  one final word on graphics in the HBD (Alan McKay)
  Re: Saw Dust (Rod Prather)
  Dr. Pivo and Highly Salaclous Admonitions (Jim Bermingham)
  Pix, culturing and a bit of humor ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  RE: chloramination (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Beeston's Maris Otter & English Malts, Oak chips/dust ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  RE: bad books ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE: saw dust ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE: yeast culturing ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  DMS Diatribes/Capital 1900 (Doug Hurst)
  double milling, partially covered kettle (Dave Burley)
  Lewis Carroll ("J. Morgan")
  brewin' (kevin m mueller)
  chloramination (AJ)
  Plastic carboy ("Al Beers")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:03:16 -0600
From: The Brews Traveler <BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com>
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum

                           Sixth Annual
                    KROC World Brewers Forum (tm)
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC) in conjunction with the American Homebrewers
Association, the Birko Corporation, Pete's Wicked Ale and The Homebrew
Hut is once again very excited to bring to the Denver area "Great Beers
of the Pacific Northwest" at the Sixth Annual KROC World Brewers
Forum(tm).

KROC would like to extend a very big thank you to our sponsors and the
attendees of past Forum events. This year's event includes a very
special friend to The Keg Ran Out Club and the master of ceremonies:
Fred Eckhardt.

*Geoff Larson
     President and Co-founder of Alaskan Brewing Co., Twenty-time Great
     American Beer Festival Medal winner and world-renowned brewer of 
     Alaskan Smoked Porter.

*Jamie Floyd
     Head brewer at Steelhead Brewery and Cafe and designer of
     Steelhead's award-winning Wheat Wine.

If this sounds like fun then don't forget that great homebrewed and
commercial beers will be on hand, lots of food, and we will even toss in
a few hundred dollars of door prizes. How much will this cost you ask?
Nothing! The Forum is and will always be free of charge! so don't forgot
to attend the Sixth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum (tm).

 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Cost: FREE!
     Info: http://www.KROC.org/WBF/wbf2000.htm
     When: 8pm-12pm Thursday, October 5, 2000
    Where: Denver Marriott City Center
           1701 California, Denver, (303) 297-1300
     RSVP: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
           (303) 460-1776 (Homebrew Hut)
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

The KROC World Brewers Forum (tm) is brought to you by:
   The American Homebrewers Assoc.
   The Homebrew Hut
   The Birko Corporation
   Pete's Wicked Ale

The Keg Ran Out Club, KROC, KROC World Brewers Forum and the KROC logo
are trademarks of The Keg Ran Out Club
Copyright (c) 1995-2000, all rights reserved


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:29:32 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: New Lommerzheim website (Koeln / Cologne)

Folks,

I've created a website for Lommerzheim at http://www.lommerzheim.com/.
It's got some photos, directions on how to find the place, and other
tidbits - with more to come.

cheers,
 -Alan





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:19:46 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Disgruntled customer

Greetings, brewers.

I ran across a humoro(u)s note about a letter from a disgruntled
customer to Miller Brewing Co, and their answer. It has to do with them
changing the color of the MGD can to black. It exceeds the 8K limit of
the HBD, and I don't want to consume unnecessary bandwidth, but in the
spirit of our antipodal brothers, I thought it may inject a little humor
on the digest, so I posted it on my webpage. Enjoy if you will.

http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew/customer.htm


Steve Jones
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, TN
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew





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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:06:40 EDT
From: Warandle1 at aol.com
Subject: removal of water from beer & carbonating with N2/CO2 gas

I have a friend who just brewed his first beer (from extract).  He has 
determined that he added to much water to what should of been a five gallon 
batch of a stout.  Probably added 1-1.5 gallons too much.  Is there a way to 
reduce the water content of his *fermented* beer?  We had thought about 
freezing it to remove some of the ice crystals.  He will be kegging and 
artificially carbonating the beer.  I told him at worst he would have 6.5 
gallons of a brown ale with around 3% alcohol. (Rookies!)

Next question:  he will be using 75%nitrogen/25% carbon dioxide as his gas.  
I read in William's Brewing catalog that you can't artificially carbonate 
beer with this kind of gas.  I don't understand why.  I figured that one 
could shake the beer with 20-30 lbs of pressure, vent to purge the CO2 
depleted head space, re-apply 20-30 lbs to the keg, and repeat till 
carbonation is appropriate.  Will that not work?

Thank you for your help

Will Randle
Ashland, MO


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:13:47 +1100 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at aus.sun.com>
Subject: beer action in orlando


a mate is heading to orlando for a "conference"  at  disneyland.

he needs to consume vast quantities of micro brewed beer  at  needs
a place to go. theres only so much happiness one can take in
the land of walt.

if anyone is in the know of an establishment in the area
pls let me know.

cant wait for round 2 of phil and grahams heavy weight stouch. 
with the beer-guts on these fella's it ought to be HUGE.

yours from the olympic city (aka the centre of the universe
for the last couple of weeks at least)

scotty




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:33:43 -0400
From: phil sides jr <phil at yankeebrew.com>
Subject: Re:Saw Dust

"Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com> asks:

>I am looking to add some "barrel" to my barley wine soon.  I know that
some
>of the wine kits on the market have "saw dust" to add to primary to
give it
>that yummy oaky taste.  I am looking to buy some of this "saw dust." .
I do
>not like using the "chips."  Does anyone know where this "saw dust" can
be
>purchased?

Steve,
You should see it around, it is called Oak-Mor.  Brewshops with a good
selection of wine stuff should have it or there are Internet vendors
that sell it if you want to mail order.  It comes in three levels of
toastiness or is that toastedness?  Anyway, the stuff is supposedly
granular white oak and AFAIK only one supplier makes it under the
trademarked name.  I haven't used it but have been meaning to try it.  I
think I'll pick up a bag of it and give it shot on this year's cider.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- ---
Make Wort, Not War...




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:58:39 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: re my harsh flavor

Thanks all.

I got a lot of advice both private and to the digest hear are the answers to
questions and actions I will take.

Offcourse I do ster when I'm getting the mash but the Manifold could be
trapping some grain under it.

I intend to upgrade the insulation and try a single infusion mash with no
mahout. I will also allow the running to settle for some time before the
boil (I recall some sludge in the bottom of the bucket that contained the
first runnings)

To avoid the complications of pH adjustment of the sparge water I have been
using RO water to sparge (but tap water to mash so I don't have problems
with trace minerals). The buffers in the malt should stabilise this
extremely soft water at a suitable value. I haven't measured the pH of my
mash or sparge as I don't have a source of the pH papers. 

I didn't mention the yeast because I noticed the harshness in eth wort for
the mild so yeast couldn't be a contributing factor. But as it has been
mentioned. 

The 22L of pale had 11.5g safale s-04 ale yeast.

The mild was split into 2 15L fermenters each got 1L stater made from a tube
of white labs.




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:27:53 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Home Roasting

G'day All

Well I know this home roasting is really exciting stuff (not) to those in
the North American Continent.  Lets face it, I bet you lot can go out and
grab a
Cassawory Malt Blend if you wanted to.  But to us poor buggers in Aus, and
Tasmania, Antartica, South Africa, India, Lynne O'Conners mailing list, well
we don't have that luxury.  To us poor buggers, this in a lot of cases is
our only option.

Now to explain what I do it requires all the technocrats to again bite their
tongues.  (you fellas (and loves) did very good with my yeast series) I'm
going to make some sweeping statements for the masses, and yes just like
picking my nose, you'll find holes in it, but just bear with me.

Now what happens in a malting house is really quite a simple operation.
Basically once the barley has germinated one of two things will happen.

1. The barley is dried and then roasted.  The longer you roast it, and the
hotter the temperature, well the darker the grain.  These are your basic
malts. So it goes Pilsner, Pale, Vienna, Munich, Amber, biscuit, Brown,
chocolate, dark (or similar names.

2. The barley is left wet and roasted.  Again the longer and hotter you do
it the darker you get.  These are your caramel malts. So it goes Carapils,
Caravienna, CaraMunich,various Crystals, Special B.

Now there are a couple of other variations.  Smoke the grain, and you get
Rauch malt, roast raw barley will add different flavours again, and roast it
til its black and you have the Roasted barley for stout.  And why stop at
barley, whats wrong with wheat, or rye, - the options are endless.

But lets look at the general malts.  You can see that they all basically
start from the one base malt, Pilsner and Carapils. Its what the maltster
does after that determines the final product. So you can take a Carapils and
make a Belgian special B if you know how to work it.  But you can also use a
Cara-Munich and make a Special B.  In fact as long as you go "up the line",
you can make any malt out of a lighter one.

So what malts do I have at home that I need. I can get Pilsner malt, both
imported and local.  This isn't cheep stuff over here even if you buy it in
bulk. So I keep it for my use.  Next is Schnooner malt (Pale Malt). Now this
is the mega-brewery malt that is mass produced.  Its not as good as Pilsner
malt, for example I believe its a bit dextrinous, but it is well modified
and is cheep and easily available.  This is my malt of choice for all my
ordinary malts.  I have no troubble using it right up to to chocolate.

For my Caramel malts I need only one really.  Its a dark carapils (or a very
light Cara Vienna) Take your pick.  I go with a slightly dark carapils to
ensure i have that caramel flavour there.  From this i have no trouble
making all my caramel malts, even Belgian Special B

So what are the methods we can use to roast our grain. One method, that I
don't favour is "short and Sharp"  This method you give a realtive high
amount of heat for a short period of time.  This works fine, roasts the
grain very quickly. So why do I hate it.  Well its simple
1. it doesn't really copy what goes on in a malting house.
2. it doesn't give an even result
3. its too easy to muck it up
4. you have to almost constantly stire it to avoid hot spots and burning.

BUT, it does allow you in an emergency to get some roasted grain quickly.
Now this is worth trying when you have nothing to do, but I'm not going to
cover
it (I dont know if you realise I do have a brew room to build) so finally, I
am going to cover, with relevant temperature and techniques how to actually
do it (No thats nothing to do with SWMBO).

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh

Some-one mentioned Chloramides again on the ol'hbd.  But no -one answered my
little querry.  I put it to the knowledgables, again - if the most
conservative estimates says that if you stand your water a week and boil it
for an hour eg say your wort boil, you will susposively remove these
beasties. (this is what i am lead to belive from all the discussions to
date).  Now tell me if I have the wrong end of the stick, but from what I
can tell these Chloramides should not be a worry to a mash brewer.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:51:18 +0200
From: "Weaver, Joseph Todd Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM"
Subject: John Snow

Thanks for your interesting discussion on John Snow!  Can't wait to visit
that Pub, if it really exists.  Some say that his work was the foundation
for the science of Epidemiology and Public Health. Maybe visits to the local
pub actually fall within my duty description?

J. TODD WEAVER, Capt,USAF,BSC,DVM
Chief, Public Health
39th MDOS Incirlik AB, Turkey 
DSN 676-8613
COM 011-90-322-316-8613 


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:05:59 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: My Winter Project

Greetings HBDers,

My winter project is planning the Brewery addition to my garage. Plans are
cheap and building is expensive so I am putting on my AR thinking cap and
starting my planning early. My current Setup is a 2-tier 1/2 bbl system on
the Jeff Kane/Marty Tippin model (
http://www.execpc.com/~jkane/beer/brewery.html) I use the same Metal Fusion
burners everybody else does.

The basic plan to add a 13 x 16 foot slab onto the back of the garage (thus
saving the tree, or taking out it would be 13x20). Including floor drains
to a dry well (using 2 55gal plastic barrels) Framing it in,
insulation...Upgrading the ancient Tri-wire electricty to the garage is a
givin. Yes, i'll be trenching in 220v...

So My first question is do I extend the natural gas line from the house to
the garage, convert my system to NG and save the PITA, safety concerns and
$$ of propane.  Has anyone out there actually converted their system to run
on Natural Gas?  What is my BTU requirement? Will I have a pressure problem
running from my residential gas line (6 inches i am told).  Several club
members have given me financial incentive to sell my system and start again
from scratch. So should I Go the RIMS route on my mashtun to lower my BTU
need? Heck, i could just go all electric but wiring pairs of 220 elements
into a stainless keg just sounds inherently dangerous...

Pondering the possibilties...
The Poison Frog Homebrewer
Phil Wilcox
Jackson, Mi (32, 270)



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:15:20 EDT
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Demise of the HBD

I am so very disappointed in the direction the (once beloved) HomeBrew Digest 
has taken over these past several months.  As a long time subscriber, it 
saddens me to see it so.  What was once a highly enjoyable forum of ideas, 
experiments and information related to homebrew and brewing has now become so 
heavily overshadowed with random nonsense, personal diatribes and noise that 
I no longer look forward to it's receipt.  I can't bear to read another 
stupid fictional account of the alternative lifestyles in Australia.  The 
current incarnation of "Dr. Pivo" is also somewhat lacking over the origional 
(or hadn't the rest of you realized the difference?) in terms of his depth of 
brewing knowledge and contributions.  

I have therefore unsubscribed myself.

I will check back in a while in hopes that the perpetrators will have tired 
of their nonsense and moved on to some other hobby, and that the discussion 
will have returned to it's previous high quality.  Good Luck Digest 
bretheren...  you'll need it.

Adieu,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:37:37 GMT
From: "Tony Clifton" <cybercrusader at hotmail.com>
Subject: Doc Pivo's Highly Salacious Admonitions

The ever-so-eloquent Doc Pivo has this to say about "some" people and the 
possibility of drinking too much of the non-rinse sanitizer Iodophore:

<<Now. Back to the case of these really overindulgent sanitizer quaffers:

It turns out the the REALLY excessive imbibers contract a rare condition 
known as "Gilles de la Tourettes Syndrome".

This unusual neurological condition, is marked by "twitching" or "ticks", 
that are not limited to movement, but include speech. Repeated patterns, and 
almost without exception inappropriate to the
circumstances in which they present themselves.  They burst in 
uncontrollably, in the midst of normal behaviour, and then the individual 
returns to the previous behaviour pattern, as if there had been no 
interruption. The words, or phrases that insert themselves in ordinary 
conversation, can quite often be obscenities.>>

Doc man, I think you-WEENIEWANKER!WEENIEWANKER!WEENIEWANKER!-may be on to 
something really, really big- ANYCOCKLEDOO!ANYCOCKLEDOO!ANYCOCKLEDOO!

And don't you just hate those folks-UPYOURS!UPYOURS!UPYOURS!-who contribute 
nothing but nonsense-BEERFARTS!BEERFARTS!BEERFARTS! to this forum?

Oh, and I love beer dammit!

That's it, I'm done.
Tony Clifton
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:56:50 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Dr. Pivo (twitch)

With the last post by the eminent doctor concening the emporors clothes, 
iodophor induced OCD and tourettes syndrome I have a question to ask.

Hey Doc, do you keep your brewery down in the basement of the hospital or do 
they let you set it up in your padded cell.
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:59:45 -0400
From: "Gordon Strong" <strongg at earthlink.net>
Subject: Wyeast 3522 Ardennes

An update on a past discussion about Wyast 3522 Ardennes ale yeast (AChouffe
strain).  I brewed a dubbel early last month with this yeast and have been
enjoying it recently on tap.  Since a recent Zymurgy article said this
strain could tolerate fermentation temperatures up to 85F, I started it at
an ambient air temperature of 80F and let it cool off at 75F as the
fermentation started up.  I think it worked great, and didn't have any off
flavors.  In fact, I think I'll retire my old favorite 3787 for dubbels (and
save it for tripels) and replace it with 3522.  It finally gave me the
elusive "dried cherry" character that some finer dubbels seem to have,
without the excessive phenolics that 3787 can produce (although it does have
some, as part of an overall complex, tasty character).  I split a 10 gallon
batch with a friend who used 3787 yeast, so maybe we'll have a chance to do
a side-by-side tasting soon and report the differences.  If you make and
enjoy dubbels, I encourage you to try this yeast.

Since someone always asks whenever I mention it, here is the recipe I brewed
(recipe for 10 US gallons):
10 lbs DWC pale ale
6 lbs Durst Munich
4 lbs Weyermann dark Munich
3 lbs DWC aromatic
1 1/2 lbs DWC carapils
2 lbs DWC caramunich
3/4 lb DWC Special B
2 oz Weyermann dark wheat
2 lbs dark candi sugar (add during boil)
2 oz Willamette whole 5.2%  at  60 (couldn't get Styrian Goldings this time)
1/2 oz Saaz 3.2%  at  15
1/2 oz Saaz 3.2%  at  2
Wyeast 3522 Ardenne Ale yeast (for half the batch, used shampoo tube,
stepped up once)

Used 17 gallons RO water treated with 4 tsp CaCl3 and 1 tsp CaSO4.  Mash
base malts  at  156F for 90 min.  Add specialty grains (last 3 malts) and
mashout at 168F, recirculating for 15 min.  Collect 13.5 gallons  at  1.060.
75 min boil.  Final boil volume 11.5 gallons.  Final volume in fermenters:
10 gallons  at  1.070.  Aerate with pure O2 for 1 minute, pitch yeast at 80F.
Ferment at 75F until mostly done (blowoff tube needed for first day of
fermentation).  Rack to secondary or keg and ferment out at 70F.  Keg and
force carbonate.

If you make this recipe, I'd like to hear how it goes.  This is mostly the
same recipe that was published in the Jan/Feb 2000 Zymurgy, but I increased
the caramunich, used Belgian pale ale as the base malt, and switched
yeast/fermentation temps.

Gordon Strong
Beavercreek, OH
strongg at earthlink.net



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:07:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: one final word on graphics in the HBD


Folks,

I find it quite absurd that so many people seem worried about dirty 
pictures being sent around should the HBD allow images.  By your own 
arguments we should now be inundated by dirty jokes in text form, 
but I have not seen a-one.

Food for thought ...

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:21:50 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Saw Dust

I am sure a local furniture factory would be glad to abide.  They probably 
wouldn't even charge you.  You could also buy a small aged oak board and 
run it through a circular saw.  Heck, a hand saw would produce enough for 
your needs.  

Interesting concept.  I'm kidding about the furniture factory but I'm sure 
you could get the oak and make your own cuttings.  Another method would be 
to use a hand plane.  This would give you very thin strips that would be 
easier to remove from the finished product than saw dust.   

Does anyone have suggestions on how much Oak saw dust is used in a batch 
to obtain a desirable oakey character.
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:30:28 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Dr. Pivo and Highly Salaclous Admonitions

Good Dr.,  One thing Georgie did, although he may not have realized that he 
did, was give us " Yanks" the ability to do math using our head instead of 
our fingers or toes.  Believe it or not some people can figure out things 
without taking off our shoes.
Speaking of taking off shoes, Phil, if Marilyn Monroe wasn't a yank I think 
she would have had a problem with the metric system.  She had six toes on 
her left foot.  Look the next time she comes out of the bog.

Temperature is 97 degrees F. today.  Fall brewing season is just around the 
corner.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX





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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:19:16 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Pix, culturing and a bit of humor

On the subject of pictures AJ wrote:

>Now I suppose we could argue
>that I might post a URL which I claim is a picture of a pycnometer but
which
>is really a picture of yours truly ... in the altogether. I give you my
word
>of honor that I would never do that but can we count on our antipodal
>cousins in this regard? (Don't take offense down there. The only thing I
>don't like about Oz is the plane ride).

I'm not worried about out brothers Down Under, but I wouldn't put it past
Doc Pivo to post a picture entitled: "Coed Naked Brewing!" ;-)

Steve Lacey commented on petri dishes & culturing:

>Mind you, I
>have had success using sterile disposable plastic petri-dishes, so that may
>be an option for the pressure cooker and autoclave deprived.

I have had much sucess using sterile plastic petri dishes and serological
pipettes.  Recently I have purchased a dozen glass petri dishes figuring
that my lame budget would fare better than with disposables.  But I have
never used glass ones before and a few questions arise:

1. How best to sterilize the media?  seperately or in the dish?
2. Should a wire rack be constructed to stack the dishes (with covers on) in
the pressure cooker to prevent breakage and raise the bottom ones above the
liquid level (if filled previously to sterlizing)?
3. What's the best way to clean them?  I currently run my used glass culture
tubes through the cooker to melt the agar, pour it out and then wash with
detergent followed by a chemical sterilzer before refilling and sterilizing
again.

I've been spoiled by the advantages of disposables and a sugar-daddy budget
in the past.

I posted this on the Sake Digest, but since many do not read it I thought
some may benefit from a smile or two.

>Some lessons learned regarding parenting and yeast ranching:

1. Attending to a newborn and finding the time to keep up with your yeast
bank do not mix well.  
2. I have also been informed that the diaper genie is not a biohazard waste
container (fooled me!).
3. When competing for fridge/freezer space, baby's milk wins and yeast bank
loses.
4. No honey, I don't think the baby's milk can be pressure canned like my
growth media.
5. Why are there baby bottles in my pressure cooker?
6. The battery-operated breast pump is not to be used as an automatic
pipetter (at least not when she's looking).

PS.  I am not making these up, either!


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:31:54 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: chloramination

From: JPullum127 at aol.com

>my local water supply(omaha) just announced a switch to chloramination. i 
>remember hearing in the past that you cannot boil this to drive off
chlorine 
>but need to add a camden tablet or something a few days previously to
remove 
>this chlorine. anybody have some facts for me on this? i wish i would have 
>saved some of those old posts!

Two of the world's greatest tragedies are: 

   * 1 Not getting what you wished for.

    * 2 Getting what you wished for.

Good news, the HBD has saved those old posts, and are easily available, just
go to http://www.hbd.org

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:05:01 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: Beeston's Maris Otter & English Malts, Oak chips/dust


Regarding the recent thread on Maris Otter and cloudiness:

I think that the Maris Otter that was causing the problems was from Munton's
not Beeston's.  I believe that Beeston's and Crisp are floor malters. I do
not think that Munton's is. The Munton's Maris Otter would not have been
floor malted. But I doubt that the floor malting, or lack thereof, is the
cause of the cloudiness discussed. I suspect that it was old malt.

 Paul Shick suggested that NA was a dumping ground for poor English malts. I
don't doubt that Paul could have bought  bags of stale malt.  Wholesalers
can buy in massive quantities.  If a wholesaler sells older malt and a
brewshop buys it and sells it even staler, it isn't the maltsters fault. It
is up to the wholesalers and retailers to buy in quantities that assures
turn-over in stock. A quality shop will not sell stale malt.

Beeston's and Pauls are top quality maltsters and I doubt that there is any
poor product deliberately being sloughed off on NA purchasers. Munton's also
has a good reputation. There are lot #s on any bag of malt that help to
track the malt. One could call Munton's or a wholesaler and request an
interpretation of the label. Getting lot details for every shipment is not
practical, but the retailer who sold the malt could, and should, do this
when requested.

Likewise for any data on shipments of malt- do not assume that because you
bought the malt this year that it is this year's malt. It may have been
sitting for a while. Ask your supplier to get the data.

FWIW: We have had no cloudiness problems with our UK malts, Beeston's or
otherwise.

======

Steve Hill asks for sources for Oak 'sawdust' rather than chips. We sell
something called 'oak granules' which may be what you're looking for, but
they were listed on our website as 'oak chip powder' just to really confuse
the issue. (I'll fix that.) They are fine ground oak bits, a little larger
than powder or dust, more like fine coffee grounds. Check your local shops
or call your fave mail order site- it may be that what they have listed as
'chips' is really  the powdered form for which you are looking. The granules
are common, you should have no trouble locating a source.


hope this helps,

Stephen Ross
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:15:06 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: bad books

Alan Talman sends the following book warning:

> Since one thread is about brewing books, I'd like to excerpt
> the worst beer
> and brewing book ever written. <IMHO!> I know that you will
> think I am making
> this up, but alas, it is true, this is from a book published
> by an otherwise
> legitimate publisher.
>

<much "knowledge" snipped>

> >From the Everything Beer Book, written by Carlo Devito,
> published by the
> Adams Media Corporation, 1998.  ISBN 1-55850-843-0
>  Comments can be directed to the publisher at Adams Media
> Corp, 260 Center
> St., Holbrook MA 02343.
> 1-800-872-5627

No, no, no, no, NO! Don't scare them! There's a golden opportunity here for
all of us. How often do you come across a publisher that wants to put out
books untainted by facts? Christ, I've been putting off book writing because
I thought about all the time it would take to actually research the topic.
Now, I don't have to, I can just start typing madly with some stream of
consciousness ramblings, and the book will practically write itself.

Dibs on winemaking. Still lots of other topics for the rest of you.

Woo-hoo, I'm gonna be rich and famous!

Brian



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:22:13 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: saw dust

Steve Hill is looking for some saw dust:
>
> I am looking to add some "barrel" to my barley wine soon.  I
> know that some
> of the wine kits on the market have "saw dust" to add to
> primary to give it
> that yummy oaky taste.  I am looking to buy some of this "saw
> dust." .

Presque Isle in Pennsylvania sells a product called Oak-Mor, which should
meet your needs. Here's a link to their web site which describes the
product:

http://www.piwine.com/Catalog/brlsaccs.html


Brian



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:52:14 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: RE: yeast culturing

Hi all,
Steve Lacey wrote in HBD#3429:

"I was hoping to boast about how I had achieved reasonable success yeast
culturing using very basic sterilisation procedures. Just boiling the 
dishes and media rather than pressure cooking it (I don't have one). Well, 
I'm afraid I can't. The plates were looking good for a few days, and then 
the little white colonies went from white, to off-white to fuzzy to yerk. 
There is some yeast there too, but you wouldn't call it a raging success. 
So, chalk that one up to experience folks and do give serious thought to 
buying that pressure cooker you see at the next garage (yard) sale. Mind 
you, I have had success using sterile disposable plastic petri-dishes, so 
that may be an option for the pressure cooker and autoclave deprived."

Steve, before buying a pressure cooker I suggest you try "thyndallisation".
I use this old sterilisation method since 3 years for yeast-culturing in a
"home-environment" and never had any problems with it.

My procedure:

Illustrations can be found at
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/y_cult.htm

1) Thoroughly clean glassware (petri-dishes and culturing-tubes for
   slants).

2) Prepare media, I prefer acidified DME-Agar now, but had no problems
   without the Ammoniumdihydrogenphosphat-buffer either:
   DME         40 g
   (NH4)H2PO4   1 g (N-supplement and buffer to pH 4,0-4,4)
   Agar Agar  6-8 g (depending on gel-strength)
   well-water 400 mL

3) Pour plates and slants. -Work clean, but no need to work sterile so far!

4) Take a boiling pot with a 100% fitting / covering lid (you'll need
   100% "steam-atmosphere"). Fill in a few centimeters of deionized water,
   enough to supply 3 covered boilings of 30 minutes each. You could use
   well water, too, but I prefer DW for steaming because it leaves no
   hardness deposits on the outside of my glassware.

5) Put the petri-dishes and loosely capped slants in there. Some kind of
   rack will help keeping them upright and separated from the bottom water.

6) Cover the pot and boil for 30 minutes, thereby steaming the interior
   and killing off vegetative forms of microorganisms. *)
   Pull the pot from the stove, keep it covered and forget it for one day.

   IMPORTANT: The condensing steam causes vacuum inside the pot. So if the
   lid fits very tight you should stick a knife between lid and pot during
   steam condensation.

7) Now those spores that survive the steaming AND find our nutrition-media
   suitable for growing will enter their vegetative life-form, thereby
   loosing steam resistance. *)
   So repeating the 30 minutes steaming on 2 subsequent days (that's
   3x steaming with 2x 24h "vegetation-rest") should kill
   off everything that would be able to grow in our media.

*) I know this may not be valid for all (thermophilic) species, but as
   practice shows, it works reliable within the given conditions.

After solidification of the agar-gel I zip-lock the petri-dishes, close
the caps of the slants firmly and store them in a rack, covered with a
big plastic bag IN THE CELLAR (10-20C, depending on season)! I usually
prepare a years supply of slants. Once inoculated and incubated, the
cultures are kept in the fridge but no problem storing thyndallized
"virgin media" in the cellar!

BUT: no matter if you use thyndallisation or an autoclave: plates (petri-
dishes) will always be problematic in a "home-environment". Sooner or later
mold will find a way, creep under the lid and spread over the media.
Therefore I suggest using plates only for one single purpose: Selection
of pure yeast colonies! If you really need to do so, prepare FRESH plates.

Maintaining a pure yeast culture is best done using slants. If you don't
know about that - there are many articles on the web on how to use them,
try the library at www.brewery.org or learn German and read my article ;-)

SOME TIPS:
Forget simple test tubes with rubber stoppers, only use culturing tubes 
with EXTERNAL THREAD! Caps that seal / lock on the outside of an opening 
won't cause contamination upon unlocking and recapping. If you are 
paranoid like me, you can even soak the slants upright down in iodophor 
solution prior to opening.

Working sterile with slants is an easy thing, too. Copying cultures
can be done "floating in air", holding both tubes and the caps in one hand,
the inoculation loop in the other hand (see illustration). No contact
with contaminated surfaces except the "iodophored" hands. If you finally 
manage to do that in the upstream of a burner - you are perfect!!


Allzeit gut Sud!

Hubert,
 ...burning my hands in Salzburg, Austria.


"...And hey--I LIKE being a yeast rancher! I look in on 'em all
the time, talk to 'em ("Hi boys, I'm home!")..."
Dave Draper (whom I miss in this forum!)




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:04:19 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: DMS Diatribes/Capital 1900

Let me ask this:  What other commercially available beers are there that
would be classified as a CAP?  Do they have the same
stinky/DMS/whoknowswhat flavor overwhelming them?  Nathaniel suggests
Rolling Rock on tap which I usually pass up for something more interesting.
I'll have to try it and see if those flavors are present.  Is Rolling Rock
considered a CAP?  I wouldn't have thought so.  Perhaps the 6-pack of 1900 I
purchased was old or mishandled.  I'll have to try it again from another
source.  Or maybe I just don't like CAPs.  I'd hate to find that there's a
properly executed beer style I dislike (I even like Rauchbier, hot pepper
beer and Gueze).

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:17:13 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: double milling, partially covered kettle

Brewsters:

John Van Hove asks about double milling grain with a roller mill.

I believe I am first HBDer to introduce this concept of double milling some
years ago, but, if not, I am a strong proponent. This method allows you to
emulate a four roll mill used in many professsional breweries. This method
cracks the grain and strips the outer husk on the coarse setting without
breaking it and then on the second pass and finer setting, the whole husk
passes through without damage and the rolls easily crush the cracked grain
to provide excellent extraction efficiency with low flour % and a great
grain bed for efficient lautering. Check out the archives for the details.

A single pass at a fine setting pulverizes the husk and is extremely
inefficient at milling as the mill cannot "bite" the grain. A two pass
coarse/fine scheme is normally faster than a single pass at a fine setting.

Whichever high quality roller mill you buy, be sure you can adjust the nip
( separation)  on the rollers for different grains and malts ( British and
Belgian malts tend to be larger diameter)  and different stages of the
grind.
- -----------------------------------
I'm glad Al Pearlstein will be experimenting with the partially covered
kettle. I can't give you an exact answer to how much wort to start with.
But if I were you, I would start with the same amount ( to keep everything
the same or as close as possible) and insulate the top of the kettle with
some dry towels
 ( about an inch thick)  as I do sometimes. This will increase the rate of
evaporation from the kettle as the lid represent a major heat loss by
returning condensed steam to the kettle. You could also apply more heat in
your case to increase the boil rate and get the same water loss with time.
As I cautioned before, be sure all of your other wort handling practices do
not allow hot wort to come into contact with oxygen.

I do mine with two 4 gallon kettles on an electric stove  so I get plenty
of heat and can easily boil down 6.5 - 7 gallons to 4.5 ish gallons in an
hour with the lid partially on as I have described. I then run boiling
water through my chiller to bring this up to the 5.5 gallons I begin with a
brew.

If you have a favorite ale with crystal malts it would be interesting to
try both a lager and a caramel containing wort to see if one will respond
and the other not as Jeff suggests.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:20:35 -0600
From: "J. Morgan" <j_morgan at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Lewis Carroll

Hiya.  New guy, bear with me.

I'm looking for experiences re the use of corn sugar,
DME, or gyle for priming.  What effect does each have
on the finished product?

Also, as a pedant, I must ask if gyle is pronounced with
a hard or soft G...

Thanks in advance, and remember to gyre and gimble
in the wabe.

- --
Jeff







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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:44:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: kevin m mueller <kmmuellr at engin.umd.umich.edu>
Subject: brewin'

A couple of things from my brew day today...

First, I finally grinded down a screwdriver to use as a drill bit to drive
my mill.  How I survived before, I'll never know!  No more hand cranking
for me!

Second, this is the first batch I've done since my friend welded a spigot
on to my keg for me.  I should have had that done 3 years ago when I
started doing full boils!  However, I didn't listen to what I'd read, I
didn't have a chore boy, so I got a carboy full of spooge (I think thats
the technical term I've read! ;-).  That will definately be my next
purchase, where can I get one around Detroit?  Are they usually in a
grocery store, or should I check a hardware store?

Dave, I did a slow rolling boil with the lid 5/6 on.  Is this going to be
the best beer I've every made?  ;-)  I'll report back on that one (all
grain, not extract.  Monday I'm brewing an extract (demo at U of M in
Dearborn), so I'll compare.)

Gotta love the digest, thanks for all the great info!

Kevin
Building a RIMS in Redford, MI
                 



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:05:51 -0400
From: AJ <email at domain.com>
Subject: chloramination

For JPullum127 at aol.com:

Chloramine can be driven off by boiling but it takes longer than it does
to clear plain chlorine. A boil of one hour's duration should do the job
during which time you will lose about 10% of the water and precipitate
carbonate if the water is hard and alkaline  enough. This may be
desireable or not depending on the style of beer you intend to brew. If
you intend to remove carbonate by boiling anyway then all you need to do
is extend the boil to an hour's duration and that will deal with the
chlorine/chloramine in the majority of cases. If you don't want the
carbonates out or you do not want to fiddle with boiling, then just
throw in 1 Campden tablet per 15 gallons of water to be treated. Crush
it and stir it around some then stir the water a few times over the
course of an hour or so. Campden tablets are hard to dissolve.

I noted in an earlier post that if the chlorine is not strong enough to
smell, it's probably not present in large enough quantity to be
problematical though there may be cases where this is not so and a
chemical test is required. Chemical tests are simple and inexpensive.
While thinking about the sniff test the other night it occured to me
that as chlorination residuals in water are more volatile at low pH they
ought to be detectable at lower levels if the sample is acidified before
sniffing. A simple experiment showed me that I can just smell free
chlorine (not chloramine - haven't tried it with chloraminated water) at
about 0.6 mg/L in water which has just been poured into a tumbler
(aeration helps the chlorine escape). If I get the pH down near 3 I can
detect free chlorine at 0.2 mg/L. Thus I can triple my sensitivity to
chlorine by acidification of the sample. Remember that this is my schnoz
and my water. YMMV. If you want to try this use an odorless acid such as
phosphoric, citric, lactic (things a brewer is likely to have around).
Don't use vinegar - it's too stinky and don't use ascorbic acid (another
one likely to be found in the brewery) because it will nuetralize the
chlorine/chlormaine but not release it. Do not fiddle with strong
mineral acids (including phosphoric) unless you know how to handle them.
Do not ever dump acid into a strong chlorine solution (like bleach) as
free chlorine will be evolved.

See the archives for more detailed discussions.




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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:57:23 EDT
From: "Al Beers" <albeers at hotmail.com>
Subject: Plastic carboy

Hi all, Re:
<I was wearily assisting my wife with the grocery shoping over the
<weekend and noticed at the self service water dispenser, 3 gal blue
<plastic carboys.  Hmm, looks interesting.  Type 3 on the recycle
<symbol.  Only $5 +/-.  Are these things any good?  How about the
<5 gallon ones you see in the friendly office water cooler?  I'm sure I
<have read some where that these are good/bad, but the lost brain
<cells are gaining ground!

I too just obtained a plastic water jug (5 gal.) Mine has a PETE1 recycling 
designation on bottom. Would this be food grade plastic, i.e. ok for 
fermenting? Thank you all.



Don't take life too seriously...you won't get out alive.

Al
albeers at hotmail.com

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---