---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Copper Pipes in my HERMS (Rod Prather)
  Re: aussieness and beer (David Lamotte)
  Home roasting ("Graham Sanders")
  UK Homebrew Address Correction (Tony Barnsley)
  re: HBD is seeking sponsors ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Conjuring/Boiling Alcohol/pH kits ("A. J.")
  Professional brewkettles ("Luke Van Santen")
  Otter and Haze (Nathan Kanous)
  Tej (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Maris Otter (Joel Plutchak)
  the mead effect (JPullum127)
  Weevils (Dan Listermann)
  RE: Refractometer and Maris Otter ("Dennis Lewis")
  The mystery of the yawning yeast ("Foster Jason")
  haze and british malts (Robin Griller)
  Volumetric Analysis / Aussie "humor" (David Harsh)
  Re: refractometers (Jeff Renner)
  re.  weevils ("Dean Fikar")
  snow/cholera/broad street (DULISSE_BRIAN_K)
  Re: Silicon Valley Brewpubs (Doug Hurst)
  Open kettles, automation & goats? ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Brewery Automation ("J. Kish")
  grain bugs and HSA (Aaron Perry)
  Indian Meal Moths (Some Guy)
  Will we miss him????? (Beaverplt)
  Cincinnati Brew (Nathan Kanous)
  refractometers; wankers and sooks (Frank Tutzauer)
  question (CRDetail1)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:19:46 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Copper Pipes in my HERMS

I am getting very close to assembling my HERMS system.  I have a the kegs 
almost done and several of the major components are assembled.   Now, I 
know SS valves and lines are best but let's face it folks SS is 'spensive.  
Is the use of copper a health hazard or is the problem minimal.

The valves are going to be deleaded brass.  My intake, outlet and sparge 
manifold are all copper and my hard plumbing is copper.  A few quick 
disconnects are in the system for easy cleaning but for the most part 
the plumbing is copper.  Am I taking a chance with copper.   I am 
wondering with all of that copper submerged in my wort.  Am I going to have 
a problem with Copper in my beer.  We use it for hot water, sure and for years 
breweries were made from copper.  Does the PH of the wort or time and
temperature 
of the liquids affect the amount of copper dissolved in the wort.   

Please send Personal email or CC: to me if you post. 
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:25:19 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: aussieness and beer

Alan Talman has expressed trouble understanding the upside down posts
that have been frightening the locals recently.

Well, don't be scared son, step right up to the front and speak up. 
What couldn't you understand ?  Don't be afraid - we are all good mates
here !

Hell, we will even help explain the Victor mowers, Ned Kelly paintings
and Corregated iron dunnies that escorted the Olympians to their seats
on the big night.  (shhh... but ask those kinds of questions quietly as
some of the mob may take offense)

Now, one thing that I can't explain is why with all the pristine raw
materials, and an ideal beer drinking climate, our beer still tastes
like crap.


David Lamotte

Brewing in awe at what the arty types put together last weekend
Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:11:42 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Home roasting

G'day All

Sorry chaps, my ISP has has a fit and been out of action this weekend. But
you have been good Blokes and Shellas (even Lynne could laugh at my
little joke - good on ya!).  Ok lets get into it.  There's nothing hard
about it really.  All you do is dial in the desired temp and let the oven
heat up.  In the mean time spread the grain about an inch thick in the tray.
(if you can't do this all in one go, do two or three or how many batches as
needed.  Now put the expensive temp thingy on top of the grain and put it in
the oven.

Now it will take about twenty minutes (depending on oven of course) to get
the grain to temp, so you dont start the timer til all the grain is to temp.
Give it a quick stir when to temp and start the timer.  Now all you have to
do is stir it every half hour til done. No rocket science so far.  If you
are using more than one tray, its also a good idea to rotate them as well.

So what are the grains, times and temps.  This will take some experimenting
depending on your oven, but to work it out all you do is get some commercial
examples to compare it against (if you can). You will be actually be
surprised how close you can get.  But what do you do if there are no
examples.  Well you follow roughly the temps the malting houses use.
Occasionally you also get some bloody good descriptions,  Best I have had to
date is "brown malt should be  the same colour when you open a grain as the
colour of Aus Govt envelopes."  So you can get bloody close, even if you
haven't an example to work with.

So for my set up;  the temps I use are

Ordinary Malts - Schnooner malt as base
Dortmund - 95c one hour
Vienna - 100c one hour
Light MUnich - 105c one to two hours
dark Munich - 110c one to two hours
Amber Malt  - 140c one hour
Biscuit malt - 150 to 170c up to an hour (depends on type of flavour
desired)
Brown malt 180c up to half an hour
Chocolate - 200c up to an hour

For raw roasted barley

I like 45 minutes at 190c, followed by 30 minutes at 230c., or until 10% of
grains are very dark, and 10 % is light brown.

You will notice that time become flexible as it gets warmer.  thats because
at the lower temp you may not see much changes going on, but its there.  As
it get warmer you will see the changes happen quite rapidly, and you can
actually determine the colour of your malt.  So if you receipe has a lot of
dark adjuncts already, well you lighten your roasted malt.  And of course if
its light on in colour, well you can darken it as well.  This is great for
receipe formulation.


There is a trick to get those nice melanoids in Vienna and Munich Malts.  I
have found that if the grain is slightly wet about an hour before hand, so
that some of the sugars are disolved on the surface.  During the kilning it
dries out again, but the weting helps gives that extra colour, but more
importantly better melanoid development.

For Rauch malt by the way I also wet the grain a little more and I smoke it
under a hot smoke.  The smoke flavour absorbed is far more complex and
intense (so I can use far less), and I think it due to some scarification
that goes on at the same time as the smoking.  Don't know what it is but it
works. it may be slighty moist still so i finish it off in an oven with a
light roasting.

Now what do you do with the caramel malts. Well if you wet them slightly you
maintain that caramel edge, so you can make your Cara-Vienna, caraMunich and
belgian special B.  Roast them without wetting them, well you get a bloody
nice crystal substitute.

So the temps I run on here starting with a darker type carapils;

All temps are at about 120c
cara-Vienna up to one hour
Cara-Munich one to two hours
Light Crystal one to two hours
dark Crystal two to three hours
Special B two to three hours


Now a final tip

I always roast my grains the night before I use them.  Its this fresh bread
syndrome. Fresher the better.

Well thats about it.

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh I do make an exception with my "head hunting'' Rauch malt.  I let it air
for a few weeks to let some of the more volitile compounds get away. Makes a
smoother malt. My storage room smells just wonderful, but SWMBO tells me it
smells like
crap.  Now this is great news, as all i have to do to avoid her is spend
some time in this room. Guys I guarantee this is one way of avoiding that
painful male duty.

And thanks Steve mate for this one
I should also declare
that Graham "Burradoo" Sanders and I have workshopped up a marvelous
brewer's fantasy involving a certain Orstrarlyan former super-model (i.e
Elle). It basically consists of Elle, me/Graham, and a bath-tub full of
steaming warm spent brewing grains.

Thanks mate for sharing that one.  Thank god you didn't explain the big
spoon, my pump, those hoses and additional attachments, and what we do with
the spent grain after we finish, or are you planning to shatter all of my
dreams, and expose even more of me to the rest of this lot.










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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:03:45 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: UK Homebrew Address Correction

John Lovett Said

> Subject: Re: Uk Homebrew list service

> Note that the address for Uk Homebrew list service should read 
> uk-homebrew,

> not uk.homebrew

OH FU*K! And I tried so hard to get it right :<

To Re cap

Subscribe 

Send blank mail to uk-homebrew-subscribe at smartgroups.com

THEN to get the Digest 

send a blank mail to uk-homebrew-setdigest at smartgroups.com

To Unsubscribe

send a blank mail to uk-homebrew-unsubscribe at smartgroups.com

Thanks John

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman (Soon to be Ex Janitor, If he keeps this up!)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Reply To Aleman At brewmaster Dot demon Dot co Dot uk
ICQ 46254361

A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK, managed by home brewers for home brewers



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:03:37 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: HBD is seeking sponsors

In response to Ray Daniel's post, Bill writes:
Bandwidth is cheap nowadays, Ray.  You should feel free to use all you
need, and do it often.  We like hearing from you.

Well, apparently bandwidth isn't going to be as cheap (read free) on the HBD
as it has been. I know that the HBD is an important part of our lives (whadda
ya mean, get a life?), and now it's time to pony up. It's time for all of us
that love the HBD to come up with a little bit of money to assure that our
bandwidth will continue to be available.

I'm sure Pat & Karl will let us know how much is needed once they get that
figured out, but count me and Hogtown Brewers in.

Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:35:38 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Conjuring/Boiling Alcohol/pH kits


I hope you were all as impressed with my ability to conjure up Louis B
as I am with myself.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Alan Talman is right that you can't boil just the alcohol out of a
solution of water as an azeotrope is formed. But that is not essential
to the method. The object is to get _all_  the alcohol - not pure
alcohol. Following the ASBC protocol 50 mL of water is added to 100 mL
of beer and this mixture distilled until about 96 mL of distillate have
been collected. The distillate is made up to 100 mL and the residue in
the flask is made up to 100 mL. The distillate is assumed to contain all

the alcohol. The residue is considered to contain all the extract - both

in the original volume. Thus the alcohol content of the distillate is
the alcohol content of the beer by volume and the exract of the residue,

the true extract of the beer.

Certainly all the alcohol is not recovered. In my experiments with
alcohol/water solutions I find that I can recover 99.4% on average using

the ASBC procedure and apparatus (note to wouldbe quislings and boy
scouts: I have BATF permission to do this). In beer the recovery may be
a little different because beer is not water (thank god!)

By the same token I have always wondered about the effects of boiling on

the extract especially as protein often coagulates when I do this. I
have tried slowly evaporating the beer rather than boiling it. The
results are nominally the same but I don't have a detailed data set for
this.

PS: I am not a chemist.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Edward Doernberg was right - the color of beer is going to interfere
with liquid pH tests. I'd also worry about the redox state of beer as
opposed to water as the dyes in the test kit may well respond to rH as
well as pH. Furthermore, the liquid test kits I have seen do not cover
the range of pH's required for brewing.









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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:04:42 -0500
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Professional brewkettles

Brian Lundeen wrote - 

You've got to think that these things are designed to produce a 
better product than the simple pot on a burner that most of us use.

To which I'll reply, you'd think, wouldn't you? The 7 barrel kettle (I 
forget the manufacturer) we used was a scaled up version of what 
most homebrewers use. A very high BTU flame thrower ported into 
a space with the floor of the kettle directly above, another layer 
of stainless directly below, and the walls of the kettle serving as 
the sides. We had more instances of wort caramelization using 
that beast than when using the cajun cookers at home.

The kettle did have a semi-neat feature to prevent hops particles / 
vented condensate from returning to the boil - a small lip that the 
vent pipe fit over, allowing the miscellaneous stuff to collect and 
drain out a side port. Usually worked good unless it got plugged 
with hops.

Now, some of the kettles the bigger outfits use might be designed 
to work much better (steam jacketing, condensate return prevention, 
etc), but I've not been lucky enough to see them up close.

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:15:49 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Otter and Haze

For some crazy reason, I checked out my malt this weekend.  I've got a bag 
of M&F malt that was sold to me as "Marris Otter" and, in fact, it is 
labeled "Otter", not Marris Otter.  So far, three great brews from this 
malt...no haze, just plenty of delicious malt flavor and excellent head 
retention (compared to all of the American malts I've tried).
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:19:50 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Tej

I ate in an Ethiopian restaurant the other day where they
provided a honey wine called Tej.  I was trying to figure
out what spices were in it, eventually giving up and looking
at the bottle.  It was spiced with "only the freshest
Ethiopian hops".  That's a shocker.  Has anyone ever seen/
heard/ tried Ethiopian hops?



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:44:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Maris Otter


In HBD #3432, C.D. Pritchard wrote:
>I bought a sack of [Beeston's Maris Otter] a year or two ago and brewed
>with it twice (no protein rest).  Both resulting worts were crystal clear
>going into the boiler yet the ales had an extremely dense and persistent
>chill haze at ~45 degF.

   I know some have suggested a protein rest, but my understanding
is that MO is considered very forgiving in the brewery, and English
malts in general are made for the single infusion mashes common in
that country.
  
>I'll never again buy anything malted by Beeston. 

   I'll reiterate that when I bought the Beeston MO I also
got some Halcyon, Pipkin, Chariot, brown, amber, medium and
dark crystal, chocolate, etc.  Everything except the MO has
worked very well for me and has been quite tasty.  I wouldn't
throw out the baby with the (hazy) bathwater.

(Personal to Stephan Cavan: Got your email, but in some weird
format my venerable mail reader can't decipher.  Please resend
in straight text.  It's what we humans read. ;-)
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Brewin' in East-Central Illinois



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:50:01 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: the mead effect

i've been trying out this theory over the last while and was wondering  what 
others thoughts are?. so far i think it definitly has an effect different 
than just alcohol in general. i've been handing out a few bottles to friends 
and comments to date are fairly positive.


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:18:05 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Weevils

David Houseman ( David.Housman at unisys.com) asks about getting rid of
weevils.  I have found that CO2 will quickly suffocate the little bastards.
 I hook my regulator to a racking cane and stick it deep into the grain. 
Hit the gas a few times over a few hours and keep the grain somewhat sealed
and they are gone.  If kept sealed over their life cycle time ( I don't
know how long this is) they won't be back.  
 
Dry ice is a great way of doing the same.  
 
Mary Ann Gruber of Briess Malting assured me that dead weevils do not cause
hazes.  I am unsure how serious she was when she told me this.....
 
Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com
 
Check out our new e-tail site at listermann.com!


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:47:04 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at lewisdevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: Refractometer and Maris Otter

Thanks to Louis Bonham for the info regarding the refractometry. And thanks
for the helpful hint that I think we all could take advantage of--use the
archives. I could have answered my own question, and several days sooner, if
I had bothered to check the archives. I'm going to try the equation on my
programmable calculator. That should keep it simple and portable.

I was going to ask if anyone has an equation to convert deg P to SG, (and
it's not as simple as P*4=SG*1000) but I think I'll take a tour of the
archives first!

Regarding Maris Otter haze--one thing that we keep overlooking is that the
malt is made for British ales. These are usually served at 52F or more, and
chill haze is not a problem at these temps. Also, I have found that most
british ales in the US are served way too cold. For instance, I don't think
I've ever had a clear well-refrigerated Bass Ale at a bar. And as Warren
White correctly pointed out, British brewers add various adjuncts, from corn
to regular white sugar.

As Jeff Renner has discussed, these adjuncts were used to compensate for
high-protein malts (like 6-row) in the CAPs--maybe the British brewers are
compensating for similar conditions. It certainly isn't cost since the
adjuncts are as expensive or more so than barley malt, and the taxes
incurred are on the wort gravity.

I hate to even bring this up, but Charlie Papazian had a good point. If the
chill haze bothers you, get a ceramic mug.

Dennis

"I'm allergic to grass. Hey, it could be worse,
I could be allergic to beer." --Golfer Greg Norman



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:57:42 GMT
From: "Foster Jason" <jasfoster at hotmail.com>
Subject: The mystery of the yawning yeast

If I may humbly request some insight into a fermentation that I have never 
experienced.

On August 23, I brewed up an ale. A 70 minute mash completed conversion 
(tested with an iodine test). Boil, cooling, etc. all went according to 
plan. No hitches. Original gravity 1.060. Also, I added 500g brown sugar to 
the boil (an intentional addition for this recipe only).

I pitched about 1.5 pints of actively fermenting Wyeast 1338 (European Ale) 
- -- not my first choice, but selected due to my first choice being out of 
stock. I let it ferment at about 18 degrees celcius. The next morning I has 
a nice krausen and all seemed well.

After about 6 days, activity seemed to stop. I started to rack into the 
secondary. I tested the gravity and it had dropped to only 1.034!! I left it 
a day or two to see if activity would pick back up. There was slight 
activity (the lock bubbled a couple times a minute).

I thought about what the problem could be. I carried the carboy upstairs 
where it is warmer. This accomplished two things. It shook the carboy a bit 
to possibly rouse the yeast. It also brought the temperature up to about 20 
degrees celcius. Low to moderate activity seemed to have picked up. There is 
a slight krausen, although not very white and bubbly and the lock bubbles 
every 15 seconds or so.

It has now been about two weeks since I did that. The conditions remain 
exactly the same -- a slow to moderate fermentation. I checked the gravity 
this morning. It is down to 1.021. Taste seems okay.

I have never seen this slow a fermentation before. I have done this recipe 
before - but not with this yeast. It went perfectly last time - fully 
fermented in a week, with a couple weeks after for clearing.

So, what's up? Can anyone help? Should I add more yeast? Or not worry and 
just wait longer?

Perplexed in Edmonton.

Jason Foster
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

_________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:18:49 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: haze and british malts

Hi all,

Have never used beeston or muntons, which people are complaining about,
but, I have to say that it seems very strange to be complaining about
*chill* haze in beers made with marris otter. This malt is meant for
single infusion mashing to produce british ales, which are meant to be
served at 12-13C. I.e. around 55F. I have never had any beer
produced with a british malt produce a chill haze, but would never
serve such a beer below 50F. Anyone who chills the beer down
to 45 and then gets a chill haze shouldn't be too surprised, frankly. To
complain, *as if it is something wrong with the malt* is a bit much. 

This is a pet peeve of mine: north american brewers who can't get over
their history of drinking overchilled beer and go to great effort to make
tasty beer, before killing it with refrigeration...

Finally, I've used Hugh Baird Pale, Hugh Baird Marris Otter, and Pauls
Pale and never had any problem with hazes, chill or otherwise. Can't say
the same for the canadian lager malt I've tried. Oh and, from what I've
read, Marris Otter is supposed to have among the lowest protein levels of
any barley. That's why single infusion was practiced by british brewers as
opposed to continental decoction, isn't it? The british brewers could
produce clear beer with infusion, the continentals couldn't.

Robin



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:44:37 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Volumetric Analysis / Aussie "humor"

AlannnnT at aol.com (Alan Talman) writes:
 
> I thought I *knew* that you can't boil just the alcohol out of a solution of
> water and alcohol. I thought I *knew* that the alcohol would rise out with
> solution with a water molecule attached?

Not attached, no.  It's called an azeotrope, where a mixture boils at a
lower (or in some cases, higher) temperature than either of the pure
compounds.  For EtOH/water, it's around 90% ethanol and (from memory -
probably wrong) 88 C.  This is the same phenomenon that makes ethylene
glycol/water boil at a higher temperature in your car radiator.  (Note
for the rest of you thermo geeks out there:  I know this isn't a
strictly correct definition, but it accurately describes what happens.)

This doesn't keep you from weighing a certain volume of beer, then
boiling it until all the alcohol is gone (some of the water will leave
with it).  Then you add water to get it back to the original volume and
weigh it again.  A simple mass balance provides the alcohol content. 
I've done this, but you don't get much more accuracy than using the
potential alcohol scales on your hydrometer.  Note I say MUCH, as I
don't feel the need to be that precise in my alcohol content
determination.  

- -----------------
On Aussie humor-
Personally, its gotten a bit old and I page down.  Often something beer
related is hidden in the middle of a 50 line ramble about things
Australian.  So if I see posts from the .au part of the net and the
subject line doesn't *really* interest me, I almost always scroll past. 
Note that I am NOT advocating censorship nor am I going to take my
computer and go away.  On the plus side, at its absolute worst, it is
nowhere near as annoying as Paul Hogan. (I hope he isn't considered a
national icon.)   

Warren L. White wrote:
> ... HBD is ... good  fellowship, ... hearty exchange of good-natured  banter!

Normally, I agree.  It does seem odd that some people take disagreements
so personally and feel they have to resort to vitriolic attacks. 
Diversity of opinion is actually a good thing.  Of course, if you really
feel the need to call people names maybe you could get a job this fall
in the political campaigns here in the states.  I think Shrub and Impale
are going to need plenty of help.

Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League				Cincinnati, OH


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:09:00 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: refractometers

"Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com> reminded us of all the 
writing he has done here on refractometers.

Louis - you were writing an article for Brewing Techniques on this 
but it's gone, now, of course.  Is it possible for you or someone 
else to put a plug-in formula on a web site in the manner that Glen 
Tinseth has dont for hop bitterness?  That way I could plug in the 
starting and finishing readings and get the actual final gravity and 
alcohol.  I know I could plug the forumla into a programmable 
calculator, but that seems daunting.

Another useful tool would be a chart with starting refractometer 
reading across one axis and the final reading on the other axis, and 
the alcohol in the boxes.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:11:08 -0700
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: re.  weevils

>For years I've keep sacks of grain in our kitchen pantry without any
>problems with rodents or insects.  Since I don't go through sacks of grain
>as quickly as I'd like or should, these remain open (closed sacks but not
>sealed) for months.

[snip]

> I'm thinking of putting the grain into my
>chest freezer and cranking the temperature down to freezing and try to kill
>the insects that way.  Two questions:  Will this work without ill affects
to
>the grain?  Any other good ideas to rid the grain of insects?
>
>Thanks,
>
>David Houseman
>
>
>

David,

I had an infested sack of grain once.  What I did was double sack the grain
in heavy duty trash bags (which I always do anyway), purged the inside sack
with CO2, sealed for a few days at room temp, and the bugs were gone.

- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:18:47 -0500
From: DULISSE_BRIAN_K at Lilly.com
Subject: snow/cholera/broad street

been out of town for a while; just catching up . . .

the story of john snow and the cholera outbreak is true; indeed, the story
is generally used in introductory epidemiology classes.  the epidemic
intelligence service within cdc (the folks that run around the country
doing outbreak investigations) have a john snow award they grant annually;
the winner gets a case of watney's (i tried to get them to offer better
beer, but the person in charge of the award was not a beer drinker, and had
decided that all imported beer tasted bad, so . . .)

at any rate, there is a pub at the location of the pump at issue.  the pump
itself has been moved to a different location close by, and is marked with
a plaque w/ a short history of the outbreak.  the spot of the pump is
marked by a plaque set into the curb outside the pub.

when i was there ('96), the beers in the pub were in terrible condition.
you can, however, buy all sorts of tourist crap commemmorating (sp?) the
outbreak . . .  those kind of go together, i suppose . . .

at any rate



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:34:08 -0500
From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Silicon Valley Brewpubs

Mark,

I wouldn't recommend the Tied House or Gordon Biersch both of which have
outlets in the South SF Bay area (San Jose).  I found their beer to be
lacking in anything but micro-bandwagon-homogeny.  If you can manage a ~30
minute trip up the east side of the bay to downtown Hayward (east end of the
San Mateo bridge on 'B' street), check out Buffalo Bills Brewpub.  They are
the home of the infamous "Alamony Ale", which they claim is the bitterest
beer in America.  I don't know about that claim, and they don't usually
offer it in the bar. The brewer is definately a hop head, all the beer is
very hoppy. Try the pale ale.  It represents the best example of dry hopping
with Cascade I have ever tasted.  They also brew a well reknown Pumpkin Ale
which may be in season right now.  It is also very good.  Their regular menu
includes Tazmanian Devil which is a very good high gravity ale.  Sorry I
don't have any more specifics, I am reciting by memory and haven't been in
the bay area for more than a year.

Hope this helps,

Doug Hurst
Chicago Illinois


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:56:57 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Open kettles, automation & goats?

Regarding Open Kettles, Brian Lundeen wrote:

>In the interest of trying to sort out these seemingly conflicting ideas,
can
>someone describe the mechanics of a professional brew kettle? 

I think Brian's question may be a bit rhetorical, but I'll offer what I know
anyway...

>From the MBAA's Practical Brewer text:

"Being a distillation or evaporative process, the removal of volatiles can
only take place in an open kettle.  This is the reason that continuous
process systems involving heating in closed pipes or exchangers produce
worts of different character.  As a consequence, when pressure kettles are
used to obtain higher temperatures, either a period of open evaporative
boiling at atmospheric pressure is required, or the wort may be flashed into
a vapor separator under reduced pressure to remove undesirable volatiles."
The rest of the section then goes on to explain that if you do not remove
the volatiles they will combine with the melanoidin condensation products to
form non-volitile off- flavor compounds.  Blah, blah, blah...

Most professional brewing systems which I have either witnessed or viewed in
pictures and diagrams have a closed top with a vent tube.  They are not
totally open to the air and depending on the system, the ratio of vent
opening to exposed wort surface area is small.  Not that I've measured it,
but I'd say that a 1:10 ratio is not too far off the mark.  So a 5/6 closed
lid comes pretty close. 

But what about condensate and reflux.  The surface area of the top of a
professional boiler is rounded, giving a greater surface area upon which for
steam to condense and reflux than an open lid.  However, the open lid
probably doesn't conduct heat as well as the professional system does, so
most of the condensation will probably occur in the vent tube (past the 90
degree bend) and reflux will be diminished.  I'm sure that the open lid has
poor thermal conductivity and I know for a fact that condensation and reflux
does occur with the open lid.  How much - more or less?  I don't know
because I don't have a professional boiler, but I would assume it would be
greater given the above reasoning.

The PB also states that evaporative rates between 5 - 10% / hr are
considered satisfactory.  I get about 8 - 10% with my 5/6 closed double
kettle boils.  But remember, my surface area is doubled.

Now, here's the part you're all going to love: Most diagrams of boiling
kettles show a straight-sided kettle with a round bottom and interior steam
jackets/coils.    Some are also direct-fired.  However, one diagram shows
the same type of kettle, sans steam internal steam coils or flame.  This one
draws from the bottom of the tank and pumps the wort through an external
housing containing steam coils (called a calandria). The wort is then passed
back through the MIDDLE of the tank (below the wort level) and shot through
a "boiling fountain" to a point above the wort level where it is dispersed
by an adjustable spreader and allowed to fall onto the surface of the wort.
All kinds of agitation and splashing going on here!  The pipe returning the
wort is a slightly smaller diameter than the boiling fountain (which is
flared at the point where the wort return enters), allowing it to mix the
tank wort with the calandria wort.  Think of a RIMS with a pumped coffee
percolator on the outlet.  Hmmmmm... now that is giving me an idea when I
build my Cadillac home brewery... ;-)


Mike Kowalczyk asked about homebrew automation:

"I plan on scrounging and finding an old IBM AT or such and one of those 
cards that plug into it for controlling switches and stuff. "

Unless you're good with hardware, your PC's I/O is limited to RS232
communications.  You could also redirect the parallel port I/O, but that too
would require intermediate hardware.  What I would suggest is looking into
(and here are the search words) BASIC Stamp, PIC Microcontroller or Atmel
AVR Microcontrollers.  Not to be a shameless plug for someone else, but
search http://www.dontronics.com.  It's an Australian site for all of the
above microcontrollers and a good kickoff point for those looking to get
into microelectronics.  My favorite is the AVR as it has a lot of integrated
features and can be programmed in-line using BASIC.  If you know assembly
and/or C then you are even further ahead in the game.  You could also search
Dallas Semiconductors (www.dalsemi.com) for information regarding their
1-wire and 2-wire sensors.  All of your sensors and microcontrollers can be
programmed in-line on either a single 1-wire or 2-wire bus (supply & ground
required also).  I'm currently playing around with the AVR to make a
programmed temperature controller for my lager/serving fridge.

Pat wrote:
"I remember rejecting a post poking fun at a person's regionality in terms
of, er, "sexual preferences" containing an url to a picture depicting a most
unnatural situation with a sheep"

Do you remember the URL?!?  ;-)

As for the HBD, I've found that it's what whatever you make it out to be.
Instead of lurking and hoping someone else will post something of interest,
post a little and change the "flavor".  Since my PGDN key works, I'll be
sending sending in a contribution to keep the HBD alive.




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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:03:33 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brewery Automation

Mike Kowalczyk from New Lenox, Illonois has some good ideas
for automating his home brewery.  By computerizing the brewery
in the least expensive way, we can all share in the design and
software, and get ideas from all the high-tech brewers on HBD.

 Some people have started with the "Basic Stamp", a tiny little
computer that costs about $50.00. Programs are written in Basic.
 It requires a power supply, a readout, a keypad and something
to plug it in to make it work. They can end up costing $100.
 You can get by a lot cheaper by latching on to an old XT or 
AT- IBM type computer at garage sales for maybe $10 or $15.  
They can be an 8088, 286, 386, or 486, and they don't require 
anything to be added, and they don't need a hard disk. 
 Without any hard disk, and with no floppy plugged in, many
of them will switch to Basic when they can't find any operating 
system, like DOS.

 A Basic program written for the Basic Stamp should run just
fine on the old PC, and controls can be connected to the parallel
port, in place of a printer.

 I think I would steer clear of any home-made gas controls. That
is best left to the professionals.  There is a device that's
built in to hot water heaters that monitors the pilot light.
 If the pilot light goes out, the gas burner will not light.
This is a safety device to prevent accidents. There is one of 
those on every hot water heater.

 Does anyone have more ideas for automation?
                        Joe Kish


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:47:10 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: grain bugs and HSA

Hi Dave,

I once had "malt moth" larvae in a sack of Briess. It turned out to be an
infestation in the brew shop. Anyway they replaced the sack for nothing and
didn't want the infested one back. So, being the cheap and opportunistic
bastard that I am, I poured all the infested grain into buckets. The wormies
would migrate to the surface and I'd scoop 'em out and toss 'em outside (to
freeze to death! I'm no malt moth larvae saving freak!!!!). This method got
most of them but some remained. Into the mash with them! No difference
reported, brewbuddys didn't notice (never told them you know!) no extra
protein haze! I did spend last winter with 2 or 3 malt moths (these slow
flying, grayish buggers) flying about the house at any given time. They never
found my fresh sack, as I kept it sealed in a plastic bag, and they don't seem
to like other common pantry items.

Good luck! I'd try the freezer, kill 'em first, then brew 'em up!!


Also, Warren wrote:
 
 >Here's a little tip for you all if you're worried about Oxygen in your 
 >hot wort.  Take a well-sterilised and cleaned Live Fish and pop him in 
 >your wort....
Some have expressed concern about the added haze from fish steeping....fear
not!!! your also adding instant isinglass!! I'm sure some expurt will have a
bone to pick with my logic.

brew more,
AP


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Indian Meal Moths

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....

I once had a moth infestation - oddly, they came in some hamster food and
quickly migrated to all the cereals in the pantry. their infestation is
noted by littel webs in whatever container they are currently living in,
and they like starchy, proteinaceous cereal things like Malt-O-Meal,
Ralston, Cream O' Wheat, flour, corn starch, corn meal, yadda, yadda. The
only wayI found to control these varmints was to empty their areas of
infestation, vacuum all the nooks and crannies, clean THOROUGHLY with a
household cleaner, vacuum again after the cleaning had dried, and then
contain all cereal goods in plastic containers (these buggers can chew
right through zip-loc bags, paper, cardboard...). After squashing
stragglers, my home is now moth-free. Until they found the grain
mill. Now, my garage has an infestation of the little buggers, but only on
the mill (all grains are contained in things they can't chew through). So,
for those designing permanent motorization solutions for their grain
mills, be sure to enable the throrough cleaning of the mill in order to
prevent infestation.

Per the grains, the "dump in bucket" solution is a good 'un. I think these
beasties will survive freezing - at least their nits will. In terms of
added proteins, as long as they make up less than 25% of the grist, they
shouldn't be a problem...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Will we miss him?????

Just thought I'd also chime in about Fred Will's
departure from this austere group. 

I've been reading this electronic rag for about 4
months now. I've gotten to the point where there are a
few people that I will always read what they post
because it's entertaining and I sometimes learn
something. (Yes, Graham, you're one of them. Something
tells me I should boost your ego) I actually pity poor
Fred in that his focus on life is so narrow. Will we
miss him? I think not!

By the way, what is a SWMBO?

Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:37:42 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cincinnati Brew

Hi All,
It looks like work is taking me to the Cincinnati area (Mason, OH exactly) 
this weekend.  Any beer I should try to bring home?  Any I should try to 
taste while there?  I could be persuaded to have a couple on Saturday 
evening if the opportunity arises.  I won't have a car, though.
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: refractometers; wankers and sooks

Dennis got a new refractometer.  So did I, last May, as an anniversary
gift, because SWMBO is also SWMBBF (She Who Must Be Brewed For).  If it
helps me brew more beer, she's on board.

As already mentioned, your final gravity readings are out of whack because
of the different refractive index of alcohol.  As Louis said, he posted a
formula taking original and final readings into account.  I have not had
the opportunity to check his formula against my own readings yet, but
will.  I'll also try to derive my own formula when I've got another half
dozen beers or so as data.  Stand by.

Keep in mind too, that your hydrometer may not be correct.  When comparing
readings of unfermented wort with charts like those in the back of Noonan,
my hydrometer consistently reads low.  I checked with measured volumes of
sugar and water, and the refractometer consistently reads more accurately
than my hydrometer.  And all this despite the fact that my hydrometer
reads 1.000 in water.  A buddy's also does, but when measuring the same
beer my hydrometer consistently reads 2-3 points different from his.  I
also find that my hydrometer inaccuracy increases with gravity.

- ----------
Sure the Digest has changed over the years, but so what?  So have I.
I'm voting on the side of the Aussies and others who inject a little
humo(u)r into the Digest.  Doc Pivo's iodophor/metric/etc. rant the other
day was one of the funniest things I've read in years.  And I've taken to
calling anyone who displeases me a wanker.  At first SWMBO thought it was
funny, but now she just thinks it's rude.  Ah, well, as long as she
doesn't throw a sook.

And if I'm not mistaken, Tony Clifton was an exceedingly rude alter ego of
the commedian Andy Kaufman, so don't read too much into his comments.
It's satire.  At least a little bit.

- --frank




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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:54:39 EDT
From: CRDetail1 at aol.com
Subject: question 

Hello guys .... i have gotten some great advice from you all before so im 
tryin again .. im a novice brewer and glad to have the friendship of the HBD 
 ... anyway here it is ... i hear alot of talk about oak chips and shavings 
etc ... whats my best way to go about this add some shavings to my furmenter 
or throw some in to my boil ? thanks a million !! 
Chris 

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