---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  HBD is seeking sponsors (Some Guy)
  Northern Atlanta Brews???? (Rod Prather)
  Nitrogenation (Wes Smith)
  Dave Miller (Jacob Jacobsen)
  Indoor brewing with natural gas ("Bill Pierce")
  Zymurgy/Ray Daniels (Bill Wible)
  Refractometers ("A. J.")
  Maris-Otter and haze ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  volumetric analysis (AlannnnT)
  Aussie humor (Booth)
  refractometers ("Louis K. Bonham")
  aussieness and beer (AlannnnT)
  liquid ph te.st (Edward Doernberg)
  Double Milling, Potboiler, refractometer, new words (Dave Burley)
  re: Maris Otter and open boiling ("C.D. Pritchard")
  re: HSA an idea & Sparge Arms ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Re: Uk Homebrew list service ("John Lovett")
  Re: German Bitter and Mild? ("Warren White")
  Re: DMS Diatribes/Capital 1900 (Jeff Renner)
  Flour Weevils? ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: milling grain (Jeff Renner)
  hops on fire (AlannnnT)
  Hakusan sake (ensmingr)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:04:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD is seeking sponsors

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Folks, 

The HBD now finds itself in a situation where we need to set up a
sustainable income. (No, Janitor hasn't become a paid position - we have
lost our host.) In short, we are seeking sponsors willing to help foot a
monthly bill for the HBD to remain online. We have not yet determined the
form of recognition or exposure we will provide for these sponsors, but it
will likely be in the form of rotating banner ads on the HBD website
and/or a rotating MOTD on the Digest itself. Sponsorship will be in the
form of an annual contribution. Those interested should contact the HBD
Janitors at Janitor at hbd.org.

Thanks!

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:39:36 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Northern Atlanta Brews????

I am going to be just north of Atlanta next week for business.  I am actually 
going to be staying in Alpharetta but North Atlanta wouldn't be a problem for 
a good brew.  Any suggestions.  Wouldn't mind meeting a fellow home brewer for 
a beer.    Please, personal E-mails.  I don't have a lot of time and there is 
no Sunday HBD.   

Thanks in advance.  
- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:04:09 +1000
From: Wes Smith <wessmith at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Nitrogenation

Will Randle relates the momily that you cant carbonate (nitrogenate?) beer 
in a keg. Rubbish! You certainly can. I usually do a static carbonation 
anyway (CO2 only) - 36 to 40 hours at 35psi at 3C. For the real Guinness 
effect I use a 70/30 mix (NO2/CO2) and 45 to 48psi at 3C for 48 hours. You 
will need the correct dispensing gun though - mine has a restricter plate 
with 5 x .010" holes then a flow straightener to smooth the flow. Dispense 
pressure is usually 25 - 30psi. Warning!! dont try this with a standard 
carbonated beer - you may just end up with an excessive head on your beer...

Also, check the working pressure rating on your keg. I use Firestone patent 
kegs (nothing to do with Ford..) which have a rating of 120+psi. I have had 
problems with the shutoff plungers in the respective connectors being out 
of "balance" ie one spring is stronger than the other and flow can actually 
be shut off.

But believe me I get the full Guinness "theatre of dispense" and a 
wonderful creamy head. If your style of beer calls for a little more 
carbonation, you can give the keg a short burst of CO2 before the mixed gas 
is connected - but be warned, too much and the pour will be uncontrollable.

Good luck.

Wes Smith
Southern Highlands



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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jacob Jacobsen <beermakerdk at yahoo.com>
Subject: Dave Miller

I keep looking for Dave Miller to drop the occasional
post here.  I would like to tell him how much I have
enjoyed and benefited from "The Complete Handbook..."
and then from "Homebrewing Guide".  They are a great
place to start in this hobby and a valuable reference
at the same time.  I looked around the AHA site but
can't locate him.  Dave, maybe you'll read this. Thank
you, sir.

I also really like the Seven Barrel Brewery "Brewer's
Handbook". It is quite complete, written in a very
clear and light hearted tone and has a ton of useful
recipes.  One suspects the three guys that wrote it
have a lot of fun at work.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:26:23 -0500
From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: Indoor brewing with natural gas

In HBD #3430 Phil Wilcox describes his very well thought out plans to
construct a brewery addition to his garage.  Among his questions are:

> Has anyone out there actually converted >their system to run on Natural
Gas? What is >my BTU requirement? Will I have a pressure >problem running
from my residential gas line >(6 inches i am told).

My basement brewery uses natural gas. It is a two-tier three-vessel system
made from converted kegs,  similar to a number of systems I have seen
online.

I have three burners, two Metal Fusion King Kookers rated at 170,000 BTU (if
burning propane) each.  The third is a 35,000 BTU (again if burning propane)
Superb ring burner.  The Metal Fusion burners are under the HLT and kettle,
and the Superb burner is under the mash/lauter tun.

All three of them are converted for natural gas.  I placed a tee in the main
gas line coming into the basement from the meter and plumbed the line to my
brewing stand.

On the burners themselves I removed the regulator that would have connected
them to the propane tank.  Natural gas is dispensed at much lower pressure
than propane; the regulator is not necessary.  Next I drilled out the
orifice for each burner; because the pressure is lower the natural gas
orifice is larger.  I used a 7/64 inch drill.

Natural gas has somewhat less energy per cubic volume than propane.  I'm
sure one of the experts can tell you the exact percentage, but I was led to
believe that the heat output of each burner would be reduced by about 20
percent when converted to natural gas.  That seems about right to me, but I
still find that I have more than sufficient heat for brewing with these
burners.

The key safety issue in all this is ventilation.  These burners are designed
for outdoor use.  Combustion consumes oxygen and produces carbon monoxide as
a byproduct.  Outdoors there is sufficient ventilation that this is not a
problem, but this is not true indoors.

You will need a very large amount of air to operate these burners indoors,
so much so that a simple window exhaust fan, for example, is not even close
to sufficient.  If you had doors at each end of the brewing space and kept
them both open as well as used a fan, that would be more like what is
required.

My solution was to build an exhaust hood large enough to sit above the
entire brewing stand. It resembles an exhaust hood in a restaurant kitchen.
In my case it measures 4 by 8 feet and uses a blower salvaged from a mobile
home furnace.  It is vented out one of the basement windows using stovepipe.

But even that is not quite enough.  There is the matter of "make-up air" to
replace what is exhausted by the hood.  At the other end of my basement I
have a small kitchen exhaust fan mounted in another window.  It is reversed
so that it pulls outside air into the basement while the exhaust hood is
being operated.

The combination of the exhaust hood and kitchen fan move a lot of air.  If
you stand under the hood while it is operating you can feel a slight breeze
as the air is being exhausted.

Two more safety precaution I feel are essential.  I have installed a carbon
monoxide detector with a digital readout so that I can monitor the CO level.
And I have a large multi-purpose fire extinguisher mounted only a few feet
away from the brewing stand.

As you can tell, operating large burners indoors with natural gas is not a
simple matter nor one that should be taken lightly.  But if done properly it
does make for a convenient and comfortable brewing space.

Cheers.

Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Des Moines, IA




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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 07:54:42 -0400
From: Bill Wible <bwible at pond.com>
Subject: Zymurgy/Ray Daniels

>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:23:37 -0500
>From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net>
>Subject: Nov-Dec Zymurgy

<snip>
>If you have an idea or something that is in the works, give me a
>yell at ray at aob.org.

I sent several ideas I'd like to see to you and Paul awhile back including:
 - How about an article or series or articles on building and installing a
   home bar without contractor experience?
 - How about a column in each issue that discusses in detail a different
   chemical, substance, or ingredient found in a homebrew store and its
    use?  Things like Amalyse Enzyme, Maltodextrin,  etc.  There's plenty
    here for the winemakers, too, who I know you try to appease once in
    a while.
 - How about an article on converting a small fridge into a brew meister?
 - How about an article on brew towers, design and construction.  I've
    noticed alot of posts on HBD and in rec.crafts.brewing recently asking
    for this.
 - More 'Clone' recipes.
 - In general, more 'real world' 'how to' stuff.

Thanks for soliciting ideas.

>That's about it for now.  Thanks for the bandwidth.

Bandwidth is cheap nowadays, Ray.  You should feel free to use all you
need, and do it often.  We like hearing from you.

Bill Wible


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:33:45 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Refractometers

For Denis Lewis:  I suspect that what you are seeing in the finished
beer is the effects of the alcohol present. Alcohol has an influence on
the refractive index to the extent that it can be used to estimate the
alcohol content of a beer. Apparent gravity also, of course, has an
influence and so it (in the "points" form) is subtracted from the
refractive index change relative to water and this entered into a
calibration curve  when alcohol is determined this way. I suppose you
could turn things around and obtain the apparent extract if you knew the
alcohol content but I've never heard of it being done this way and
obtaining an alcohol estimate without having a aparrent extract reading
is going to be tough.

The guy you want to talk to about this is Louis Bonham - he's done a lot
of experimenting with refractometric analysis of beer. I hope either
this post or yours will catch his eye.



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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:43:15 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Maris-Otter and haze

If I remember correctly MO is the only winter barley to be approved
for malting. This is because winter barleys tend to be too high in
protein levels. Maris Otter is the lowest protein level of the winter
barleys but it is still high, 11.5 the last spec sheet I saw. Perhaps 
haze is the typical with MO. It is marketed for its' flavor, not its'
chill-proof ability. Granted a few process problems could lead to
haze but with several people mentioning the problem it could
be the source barley's characteristic.

NP Lansing



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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:20:46 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: volumetric analysis

Dennis posts, 
>  I haven't done a volumetric analysis to confirm that the
>  reading is correct (i.e. boil the sample to eliminate the alcohol, then top
>  up with distilled water to original volume) because I hate to waste good
>  beer.

Hi Dennis, I know this was not the primary point of your post, but I must ask.
I thought I *knew* that you can't boil just the alcohol out of a solution of 
water and alcohol. I thought I *knew* that the alcohol would rise out with 
solution with a water molecule attached?

Any chemists out there? 

Alan Talman


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:19:03 -0400
From: Booth <kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Aussie humor

I love it......thanks for looking at life with a smile.   cheers,  jim
booth




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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:28:40 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: refractometers

Hi folks:

Dennis Lewis asks the perenial question about using refractometers to
measure the gravity of fermenting beer, and wonders whether it is showing
real or apparent extract.  The short answer is neither.

Refractometers work on the principle that the refractive index of an sugar +
water solution (i.e., how much the solution bends light rays) increases as
the sugar content increases.  (Most of our refractometers are calibrated in
degrees Brix, which like degrees Plato and Balling is based on a % sucrose
solution.)  There are, of course, other substances and sugars other than
sucrose in wort, but by and large the RI of a wort isn't materially
different from that of sucrose solution of the same specific gravity, and
thus you can safely use the refractometer to monitor your gravity during the
mash or at pitching.

Once fermentation starts, however, you start getting ethanol, which has a
much higher RI than water.  Thus as the sugar content in the wort drops
(which would causing the RI to fall), the ethanol content rises, thereby
increasing the RI somewhat.  As a result, without some sort of conversion
formula, the reading you get once fermentation starts in earnest is going to
appear to show a significantly higher SG than actually exists.

This doesn't mean that a refractometer is useless once fermentations starts.
I have previously (6-19-99, HBD #3062)) posted a conversion formula I
derived that estimates the SG of a fermenting beer based on its original and
current Brix readings.  Additionally, you can always just use the
refractometer to monitor if the gravity still dropping -- when the reading
stabilizes, you can draw a larger sample for testing by hydrometer.

Of course, garbage in = garbage out.  If you don't properly take
refractometer readings, you're gonna get inaccuracies.  Again, check the
archives for various posts in 1998-99 for various tips I and others have
posted on how to accurately use a refractometer.

All the best -- Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:12:14 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: aussieness and beer

On the pros and cons of the HBD's new directions, I vote for diversity. I 
can't understand a thing that the Australians have posted. I haven't been 
able to read any Aussie post in it's entirety. But that's my problem, not 
theirs. 
Besides, they did such a grand job of opening the Olympic Games, (if you 
missed it, it was outstanding) we need to cut them some slack. 

Thinking back, I never understood the clin* argument (almost wrote the 'c' 
word), and I love my JSP mill, so I must be a twisted and perverse brewer. I 
guess, my opinion can't possibly be valuable in light of those admissions. 

Alan Talman

 

  


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:22:20 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: liquid ph te.st

liquid ph test

Grant Stott said that aquarium pH test kits can be used for beer.

I have to say I have doubts on this. Especially if the beer is even
moderately dark (as most of those I brew are). It may work for a pale ale or
a larger but on my dark mild, dark ale and stout I don't think id stands a
chance.

Edward



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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:33:15 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Double Milling, Potboiler, refractometer, new words

Brewsters:

Brian Lundeen asks how I justify the fact that a double coarse/fine milling
procedure produces an excellent product. I suggest you try it and see for
yourself, but be prepared to restrict the flow while lautering as you will
find that you can drain your lauter tun in five or so minutes if you don't.
You will also find your extraction efficiency will increase substantially
as the milling of the grains is more perfect. These are facts.

I justify it this way. In the first pass at the coarse setting, the grain
is cracked into six or eight pieces and the whole husk is stripped from the
grain without much abrading. On the second finer pass the cracked grain
crushes better in the finer setting as it is closer in size to the nip and
produces little flour as the grain is not abraded by the rollers. The thin
husk passes through the rollers without significant abrading on the second
pass. The result is large husks to improve the lauter, small pieces of malt
with low flour to improve the flow and efficiency of the lauter. Contrast
this with a single pass at a fine seting in which the husk and grain is
abraded since it will not pass into the nip easily. Result =  fine husk and
lots of flour and poor lautering.

This two pass method is similar to a four roll mill since the grains are
passing through four rolls. Is that surprising? I believe the screens in
four roll mills return grains for further milling. You could try this by
screening between milling coarse and fine in the above method, but it is
really unnecessary based on my experience.
- -----------------------------
I was suggesting an experimental design to Pearlstein who is going to try
an experiment with lid off/lid on, so he could approximate the boiling off
rate of the covered pot with the uncovered pot so as to reduce differences
in his experiment from extraneous variables, like time at a given
temperature. The towels on the pot lid will increase the evaporation rate
as less of the steam will be condensed. I don't usually put towels on my
pot lids as I boil in two pots and have plenty of ability to reduce the
boil in an hour.

As far as Fix's thought about not boiling off more than 12%, I don't have
such a number nor have any idea where he got such a number. But boiling off
more wort, even in a partially covered pot will increase the melandoins as
the sugar and proteins concentrations increase and thus the color will
increase and it will affect the taste, esp of lagers,  as I already
commented.  Maybe the 12% is with his brewing setup, especially if he uses
a fully open boil and suffers oxidation as well. I doubt it is a universal
number as he may suggest. I typically boil from about ~6.5 gallons to ~4.5
gallons in an hour and dilute back to 5.5 gallons with cold boiled water.

You will note that professional brew kettles are partially covered and the
surface is blanketed with steam, even though they have a much smaller
surface to volume ratio.
- --------------------------------
Dennis, a refractometer is not a useful analytical device for fermented
beverages as the alcohol interferes with the reading, since it has a
refractive index different from water. This makes the reading to determine
attenuation both alcohol and OG dependent i.e. dependent on the
attentuation. 
- ---------------------------------
Steve's comment that he enjoys learning new words from the Ozzies, like
"wanker", reminds me of a bawdy beer drinking song I used to sing. "The
Wild West Show" ( British, but maybe also Australian). One verse, of many,
is about the "winky-wanky bird" in which this bird had his foreskin tied to
his eyelid, so whenever he winked he wanked. 

"Ohhhh, we're off to see the Wild West Show. The elephant and the kangaroo
ooo ooo..."
- --------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:55:02
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Maris Otter and open boiling

Yet another data point on Beeston's Marvis Otter... I bought a sack of it a
 year or two ago and brewed with it twice (no protein rest).  Both
resulting worts were crystal clear going into the boiler yet the ales had
an extremely dense and persistent chill haze at ~45 degF.  The seemingly
weird thing about the malt I got was it wasn't steely as undermodified malt
is reported to be. I'll never again buy anything malted by Beeston. 

=  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  
Warren White posted, in part:

>Both Al Pearlstein and Matt Brady conclude that the totally open boil,
>which even professional brewers do not do, but  which Al and Matt always
>do, couldn't possibly contribute to oxidative browning and a sherry-like
>flavor in their beers.  

Just a SWAG:  Since successful commerical brewers' have to keep a close eye
on the bottom line, their use of a mostly closed boiler might be because
less energy is required.  

> The possibly of HSA during an open boil would have to be the biggest
> case of paranoia since the cold war yes/no?

Like alot of other aspects of homebrewing, so many variables are involved
that I think the answer lies more in the "art" rather than the "science"
part of homebrewing for the vast majority of us. If one runs the experiment
with a given recipe/process, the results of the experiment are strictly
valid with that recipe/brewing process.  Multiple experiments, each
changing only one variable, are required to draw valid inferences about the
relation of open area to sherry flavor & browning or whatever other ill
effects one reads about.  I don't think any of us HBers have the patience
and disipline for that and instead we take what we read with a grain of salt.

>Here's a little tip for you all if you're worried about Oxygen in your 
>hot wort.  Take a well-sterilised and cleaned Live Fish and pop him in 
>your wort....

See, there's yet another brewing variable! <g>


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:54:46
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: HSA an idea & Sparge Arms

"Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com> posted:

>Both Al Pearlstein and Matt Brady conclude that the totally open boil,
>which even professional brewers do not do, but  which Al and Matt always
>do, couldn't possibly contribute to oxidative browning and a sherry-like
>flavor in their beers.  

A SWAG:  Since successful commerical brewer's have to keep a close eye on
the bottom line, their use of a mostly closed boil *might* be becasue less
energy is required.  

>There are paradoxical forces at work here, are there not?
>1. How does one boil with one's lid on and avoid the inevitable... Namely a 
>nice boilover?

Two methods I've used- 1) Start with open boiler and boil until the foam
starts subsiding.  Skimming the first dense foam that forms and stirring
the later foam back into the wort seems to help speed subsidence.  Then
start to partially cover the boiler.  2)  Use Foam Control from HopTech.
Although intended for use during fermenting, it work amazingly well in the
boiler and doesn't affect the head on the resulting brew.  Even with the
foam control, you usually can't completly cover the boiler without reducing
the heat, but you can whole lot more than w/o the Foam Control.  
 
>The possibly of HSA during an open boil would have to be the biggest case of 
>paranoia since the cold war yes/no?

I don't know... the water vapor rising from the boil reduces the amount of
O2 picked up by the wort.  OTHO, the foam and (if/when the foam is gone)
the turbulent surface of the wort increases pickup of any O2 that is in the
vapor space above the wort.  Like alot of other aspects of homebrewing, so
many variables are involved in the question of HSA/sherry/browning due to
open boiling that I think the answer lies in the "art" rather than
"science" part of homebrewing for the vast majority of us... 

>Here's a little tip for you all if you're worried about Oxygen in your hot 
>wort.  Take a well-sterilised and cleaned Live Fish and pop him in your
hot >wort....

Yikes Warren- you've introduced yet another homebrewing variable- and
likely started a thread on added proteins in the wort! <g>


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://hbd.org/cdp/   http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:28:21 +1100
From: "John Lovett" <john.lovett at amcor.com.au>
Subject: Re: Uk Homebrew list service

Note that the address for Uk Homebrew list service should read uk-homebrew,
not uk.homebrew

cheers

John Lovett <john.lovett at amcor.com.au>
Design Group
Amcor Research and Technology
17 Rex Avenue, Alphington Vic 3078 AUSTRALIA
Tel +613 9490 6315 Fax +613 9490 6193
Mobile 0407 875 056



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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:51:50 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: German Bitter and Mild?

In regard to Philip Ritson's Real Ale conundrum...

It's good to see a fellow Aussie with the same problems as myself, namely a 
big dose of Real Ale separation anxiety! I do not walk (or crawl) alone! 
Dave Edwards has heard my incessant arse-bleeding on this "old-chestnut" 
sorry Dave... (I heard that Dave!! In can lip-read!)

I myself was in the U.K. earlier this year, and felt like the proverbial kid 
in the lolly shop compared to the same old uninspiring choices you get back 
here in Oz. Most of our establishments are Poker-Machine riddled battery hen 
farms we loosely call "Pubs".

I like you Philip consumed every type of handpumped beer I could get my 
hands on and then some, they're great in the fact that you can knock back 
four or five pints and still remain quite sober, all the walking helped 
there though I think. It does make one wonder how they pack so much flavour 
into such low alcohol beverages. (Young's and Sam Smith's were my absolute 
favourites).

I've tried just about every method to get the same results as the British 
Beers, with varying amounts of success.

If you don't mind me ear-bashing you a bit here Philip, decoction mashing 
isn't really the way to go, for the minimum results that you'd get from it 
coupled with the extra time it takes will just lead to more frustration. I'd 
stick with the Ale Malts like Schooner and maybe bump up your Crystal Malt 
content, say, to about 400-500g (as excessive as it seems) per 23 litre 
batch whether it be light or dark crystal or you could add varying amounts 
of Munich or Lightly toasted malts. Also long boils and the varying amounts 
of kettle caramelization they create also seem to help in varying degreees.

You're right about our malts, they're designed to be inoffensive to the 
pallete and purely for our shitty, bland lagers du choice! (Not mine 
though).

I've been using Marris Otter extensively now for about 12 months and still 
feel that my results are a little lacking. Though that said they're a big 
improvement on the local stuff. (Schooner, Franklin etc.)

The problem with Marris Otter is it's hard to use it exclusively (a) because 
of its cost (though that never bothers me), (b) it often seems to me to need 
some sort of nitrogen dilution, though I'm open to debate on this point. 
I've found that you need a fair whack of brewing sugar or a small amount of 
local malts or some maize in the grist otherwise it finishes a little on the 
hazy side, let's face it British Beers are mash and kettle adjunct-laden and 
still packed with flavour; and (c) I'ts still not overly-easy to get from 
every HB supplier in Oz, though mine (Southern Home Brewing) has a good 
stock of it now.

Also I may draw my detractors and sound a tiny bit contoversial on this 
point (I feel the flames a'comin) a lot of people tend to overhop their 
bitters in the IPA mentality. Bulking-up the hops in an IPA is all well and 
good and rather tasty, but Bitters by virtue of their low gravity this can 
easily be over-done, most bitters I've tasted in the U.K. except for a few 
exceptions aren't all that hoppy IMHO, some even have more residual 
sweetness than hoppiness, particularly the Nortern ones, the bitterness 
should balance the malt nicely, with just a good tang, though that said it 
doesn't hurt to be reasonably liberal with the late hops in the quest for 
that much desired complexity dry hopping applies here as well, to each their 
own.

I think that the problem does not lie totally in the ingredients per se 
(though they do help), the big hurdle to overcome on the road to 
authenticity and Real Ale Nirvana is your method of dispense, you knew this 
was coming didn't you? Namely cask conditioning and dispense by gravity or 
handpump... I think this is where the BIG difference lies and that's the 
first thing you notice with a Hand-Pumped Bitter is the total absence of CO2 
bite, unfortunately this kind of set-up is kind of out of our reach here in 
Australia (though if you check your Tatts numbers you may be lucky). In a 
nutshell Philip. Low carbonation is a must!!

A good case in point in the argument of Real Ale vs. the dreaded Nitrokeg is 
to go to some of the London Pubs and you can quite often and easily find 
Cask-Conditioned Tetleys (yum! yum! yum!) and the highly noxious and 
extremly gutless Nitro-Pour Tetleys side by side, if you can be bothered 
lashing out the 2 quid for the Nitro-Pour liquid shaving cream, go ahead and 
buy the 2 pints and compare them... After you've tried the Nitro-Pour, stick 
your tongue in some hot water to thaw it out. Then give the remaining 99% of 
your pint of the Nitro to your SO Because it's surely a Shelia's drink! I'm 
no suffragist but let's face it most women DO seem to prefer the Nitro Pour 
(I've yet to see one Bloke or non-yuppie ever drink a Caffreys). Then 
lovingly rejoice over your cask-conditioned Tetleys and taste the malt and 
hops rather than nothingness, then say to yourself... YES! YES! YES! I'm 
going to have another one (that's if the SO lets you)!

It's the ultimate test, if my SO says YUCCCCKKKK! when I give her a taste of 
a particular beer or one I've made myself... I KNOW IT'S A WINNER. She's a 
devout Tee-Totaler, the only beer she's ever liked (remotely) is 
Rolling-Rock that says just about everything! She hates Real Ale.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And to bubby boy Fred Wills who took his toys, stomped his widdle footsies 
with snotties hanging out his widdle nosey and then went home, a 
sooky-la-larin. MUMMY! MUMMY! the big bad HBD duddn't wanna play with me 
anymore, WAAH! WAAH!

    ----
   /    \
   |    |
   |    |   This is an ASCII diagram of "THE BIRD"
   |    |   (Fingernail ommitted, my ASCII diagrams
   |    |   are average at best)
   |    |
   |    |
   |    |
   |    |

Or the famous one-fingered salute!

Get real my friend the HBD is a wonderful form of communication, good 
fellowship, top brewing information and hearty exchange of good-natured 
banter!

It's what separates us from the Protozoas and Amoebas old son!

But why should I care... It's your loss!

Nuff said, I'm signing off...
Warren L. White
Melbourne, Australia
(Desparately seeking Real Ale)
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:41:54 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: DMS Diatribes/Capital 1900

>Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com> asks


>Is Rolling Rock considered a CAP?


No!  It probably was many years ago, though.

>Or maybe I just don't like CAPs.  I'd hate to find that there's a
>properly executed beer style I dislike (I even like Rauchbier, hot pepper
>beer and Gueze).

You probably just don't like 1900.  I don't particularly either. 
However, the CAP we brewed for NHC2000 was pretty much universally 
liked, as was a different batch I had for my talk, and another one I 
took to MCAB in St. Louis.  It's possible you might not like it, but 
I'd be really surprised.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:43:00 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Flour Weevils?

For years I've keep sacks of grain in our kitchen pantry without any
problems with rodents or insects.  Since I don't go through sacks of grain
as quickly as I'd like or should, these remain open (closed sacks but not
sealed) for months.  With the house being temperature and humidy controlled,
I haven't had problems with the grain staling or going bad.  Recently my
wife found little bugs all over the pantry.  These appear to be the small
weevils or whatever that one finds in flour occasionally.  Apparently we
brought something into the house that had them.  Well, they are now in my
grain.  Obviously I can't spray the grain or do anything that will affect
it's usefulness in beer.  I've sealed the open grain sacks in trash bags so
we can clean out the pantry.  I'm thinking of putting the grain into my
chest freezer and cranking the temperature down to freezing and try to kill
the insects that way.  Two questions:  Will this work without ill affects to
the grain?  Any other good ideas to rid the grain of insects?

Thanks,

David Houseman


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:41:13 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: milling grain

Kevin Mueller <kmmuellr at engin.umd.umich.edu>, who remembered to tell 
us that he's in Redford, MI, asks:


>Is it possible to mill the grain to fast?  If I'm using my drill to run
>the rollers, I can REALLY get that thing humming.  Is that doing anything
>to the grain that is detrimental?  I do run the grain through twice
>(course and fine).

I definitely get better results with slow milling.  Eric Warner, in 
German Wheat Beer (no. 7 in the Classic Beer Style Series, writes on 
page 95, "For best results with barley malt, the rollers should be 
gapped at 0.035 inches (0.9 mm) and operated at a speed of 15 
kg/hour/cm of roller width.  When wheat malt is milled, the distance 
between rollers can be decreased to 0.024 inches (0.6 mm) and the 
speed increased to 20 kg/hour/cm of roller width."

I'll leave the calculation of how this works for your mill to you.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:42:45 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: hops on fire

Damn I hate when that happens:

Fire Destroys Hops Storage Warehouse 
Published in the Herald-Republic on Sunday, September 17, 2000
By LIZ DAILEY

Firefighters continued to pour water on a fire-gutted three-story hops and 
fruit storage warehouse Saturday night, nearly 24 hours after the building 
caught fire.

The warehouse, which continued to smolder and send out ammonia fumes near 
downtown Yakima, raged out of control overnight Saturday, and kept 80 
firefighters busy past dawn. (snip)

Hollingbery and Son Inc., 302 N. First Ave., caught fire just before midnight 
Friday. The cause of the blaze was unknown, said Capt. Chuck Heath of the 
Yakima Fire Department. (snip)
Ammonia, used to refrigerate the hops, was being released into the air by the 
flames. (snip)
Inside were 10,000 bales of raw hops, most from this year's crop. 
Heavy smoke was coming from the building about 2 a.m., and by 3 a.m. flames 
were shooting out from the roof and could be seen for miles. 
The east wall of the building collapsed at 9 a.m. Saturday, taking down power 
lines. 
(snip) The John I. Haas Inc. hops warehouse on 1716 Gordon Road (also) went 
up in flames on Sept. 24, 1999.
- ------------------

Maybe some serial arsonist, or ardent prohibitionist movement is responsible! 
 Better buy hop rhizomes next spring, and grow your own just in case. 


Alan T


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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:45:48 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Hakusan sake

Greetings,

I'll be in the Napa Valley next week. Any of you
Californians know anything about "Hakusan Sake Gardens" (
http://www.hakusan.com/ ), based in Napa? Is their sake any
good? Is it worthwhile to visit the place for a tour? TIA
for your help.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY



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