HOMEBREW Digest #3485 Thu 23 November 2000

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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Good beer bars in Amsterdam? ("John S Thompson")
  Re: Co2 tank pressures (Christopher Farley)
  Nitrogen Dispensing ("Art Tyszka")
  Head Retention (Des Egan)
  Enzyme Kinetics - part 4 ("Stephen Alexander")
  Barley flour, the wet (craftbrewer)
  Fwd: ah the children of the world (craftbrewer)
  Fwd: Barley flour, the wet (craftbrewer)
  CO2 (AJ)
  Re: Brewing with Steam? (Gary Melton)
  Natural gas burners ("Frank E. Kalcic")
  Gambrinus (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com>
  thanks, scientific method (Doug Hurst)
  Cornie help (Anthony Torrez)
  Anyone using the mashmate? ("Alan McKay")
  Calcium carbonate in Brett medium ("Sean Richens")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:31:06 -0600 From: "John S Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu> Subject: Good beer bars in Amsterdam? I have the occasion to go to Amsterdam for 4 days in a few weeks. Can anyone point me towards a resource for some good beer bars there? Thanks! John Baton Rouge, LA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:08:18 -0600 (CST) From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com> Subject: Re: Co2 tank pressures > Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:19:51 -0800 > From: "Scott" <Windsurf at bossig.com> > Subject: Co2 tank pressures > > I have just received a 10 lb tank exchange from the welding company. > However, the tank pressure read 500 lbs. Is this really a full tank? I > know the tank pressure is not exact, and varies according to standard > temperature and barometric pressure. However, I deal with O2 e-cylinders > all the time, and a new tank usually registers 2000 psi. Did they give me a > low tank? Our outside temperature is near freezing now, if this helps. In my experience cold temperatures can dramatically affect tank pressure readings. A more accurate way to determine CO2 is to weigh the tank. First, determine the TARE weight of the cylinder. It is often stamped into the cylinder, and abbreviated as "TWx.x", where x.x is the weight of the tank in lbs. If the actual weight is TARE weight + 10 lbs., your tank is full. If you don't have a TW stamped in the cylinder, the welding company might be able to provide it for you. For guestimation purposes, I've got an aluminum 10# CO2 tank in the shop that's got a TW of 13.8 lbs. Steel tanks are heavier. - ---- Christopher Farley Northern Brewer / 1150 Grand Avenue / St. Paul, MN 55105 www.northernbrewer.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:59:53 -0500 From: "Art Tyszka" <art at loyalshepherd.com> Subject: Nitrogen Dispensing I gave into my "Guinness Envy" and bought the necessary items to start dispensing my stouts this way. Nitrogen tank with 80/20 mix, regulator and a stout faucet from our list's generous sponsor. Hooked everything up to a previously tapped keg, purged the C02 and was disappointed to get a pint full of foam and an almost non-existent cascade. So what am I doing wrong? I've tried pressure everywhere from 5 - 25 and still get straight foam. Do I need to remove the majority of C02 from the beer? The faucet has an adjustment that doesn't seem to do much of anything except send a 6" geyser of stout out the top when turned too far in one direction. Art Tyszka Chesterfield, MI Loyal Shepherd Brewing Co. www.loyalshepherd.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:05:56 +1000 From: Des Egan <desegan at telstra.com> Subject: Head Retention My last two batches have only retained a foaming head for about 20 seconds after pouring. The literature suggests this is because of detergent residue. I have eliminated the beer glass as the culprit so I am assuming that the detergent is being introduced during my (extract) brewing process. Either: Washing detergent residue in my ss brewpot, and/or Bleach residue in the bottles or plastic carboy (I use a weak bleach solution and then leave the containers to drain and airdry. Or , is there some other explanation...! Am I heading in the right direction? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:19:14 -0500 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Enzyme Kinetics - part 4 = Effects of Substrate Concentration on rate of Catalysis (cont) Last time we developed the Michaelis-Menten equation, 10/ v0 = k2 * [E0] * [A] / (Km + [A]) which describes the rate of product formation at equilibrium conditions. v0 (= d[P]/dt), literately the rate of product concentration increase (for example measured in moles/liter/second) is directly proportional to the initial enzyme concentration [E0]. Double the amount of enzyme present in the mash tun, and you double the rate of product formation. v0 is also proportional to k2, the rate constant which describes the rate of product formation from activated complex [EA] , { v0 = [EA] * k2 } . k2 we will later see is dependent on several factors such as temperature and product concentration [P] and so to the degree we can change k2, we also proportionally change the rate of product formation. Terms like "[A] / (Km + [A])" often appear in relation to rate & concentrations. The Michaelis constant { Km = (kr1 + k2) / k1 } is really only constant under conditions where these individual rates k1, kr1, k2 are constant. Typically this would mean constant temperature, pH etc. Still this is the term which describes the major impact of substrate concentration on the rate of product formation. I've pointed to a graphical plot several times, but consider http://www.math.com/students/solvers/graphs/plot.htm then plot y = x / (1 + x) from say x = 0 to 3. The horizontal axis (0..3) represents the substrate concentration from 0 to 3*Km, and the vertical axis the rate of product formation from 0 to about 0.7*(k2*[E0]). If the substrate concentration [A] becomes very large [A] >> Km then [A] / (Km + [A]) is nearly 1.0 so eqn 10/ can be approximated as 11/ v0 ~= k2 * [E0]; when [A] >> Km this rate forms a limit for product formation called the maximum 'velocity' or 'V', so we define 12/ V = k2 * [E0] We are stating that you have so much substrate that you overwhelm the amount of enzyme, then product is generated at a maximal rate. Basically it means that almost all of the enzyme is in it's complexed state, 'EA', most all of the time so v = k2 * [EA] ~= k2 * [E0] . If you have two enzymes which perform the same function (for example beta-amylase from barley versus bacteria) but have different product rate constants (k2) then the amount of product formed under high substrate concentrations [A] will be proportional to this constant and the other two rates (kr1 and k1) are approximately irrelevant. We can also write 13/ v0 = V * [A] / (Km + [A]) = V / ( 1 + (Km/[A])) Experimentally derived constants: Usually, even today, it is often difficult to isolate a particular enzyme of known concentration. Despite this, if the substrate concentration [A] can be made high enough so that [A] >> Km then we can measure 'V' approximately. It's a fairly simple experiment to saturate an unknown concentration of enzyme ([E0] = ?) with a vast amount of substrate and then measure the rate that product is generated (V). To make this concrete, imagine we took a yeast slurry and pulverized the cells (say in a blender with a little sand added) and then filtered out most of the cell material by rinsing through a coarse filter (coffee filter). The liquid we collected would contain the yeast enzyme invertase. (this was first performed by Marcelin Berthelot in 1860), and this enzyme is capable of splitting table sugar (sucrose) into free glucose and fructose molecules. It would be a simple matter to add table sugar concentrations to this extract and then, after a time, measure the amount of glucose+fructose using Clinitest or other similar means. We could then calculate a rate of production per unit time (v0). If increasing the sucrose concentration further had only very little impact on the rate, that we would be measuring v0 ~= V, the maximal velocity. As a second experiment imagine using the same unknown enzyme concentration as above, but only adding enough enzyme so that the rate of product formation was half of the maximum. Then v0 = V/2 = V / (1 + Km/[A]) , so [A] = Km. The Michaelis constant, Km {= [A]} has been determined for the unknown concentration of enzyme. In reality the experimenter doesn't have to be lucky or persistent enough to select a substrate concentration with v0 = V/2. If for example we reduced the rate to v0 = 0.31 * V, then at the substrate concentration [A] we know that v0 = 0.31*V = V * (1/(1+Km/[A])). So 0.31 = 1/(1+Km/[A]) or Km = [A] * (1 - 0.31)/0.31 or Km = 2.225 [A] in this particular case. Graphical Methods: There are several well known methods of plotting quantities related to enzyme product rates and substrate concentration which are meant to result in linear plots rather the y = x/(1+x) curve we are dealing with. When trying to obtain a constant from experimental data it's always nice to be able to pick off a slope or an intercept as containing the relevant result rather than deal with a tedious curve fitting procedure. The need for these hand plotting methods are less necessary now that computers are capable of reducing and fitting the data immediately, but still it is somehow satisfying to view the results of an experiment and form a linear relation from the collected data. It immediately says that something is very right about the theory and the experimental method. In any case these plotting methods are so common in enzyme kinetics that it would be difficult to pick up a book without being immediately confronted with the issue. The basic equation which related v0 to [A] is eqn 13/ v0 = V * [A] / (Km + [A]) = V / ( 1 + (Km/[A])) A Burk-Lineweaver plot graphs x = 1/[A] vs y = 1/v0 . Substituting into 13/ we get x = (V/Km) * y - 1 / Km The x intercept (y=0) is at x = -1/Km, the y intercept at 1/V and the slope is Km/V. A Hanes or Woolf plot graph x = [A] vs y = [A]/v0 Substitution into 13/ gives x = y*V - Km with x intercept at -Km, y intercept at Km/V, and slope of 1/V . An Eadie-Hofstee plot graphs x = v0/[A] vs y = v0 so x = (-1/Km) * y + V/Km with x intercept it V/Km, y intercept at V, and slope of -Km. These three are just different similar means of creating a (hopefully) straight-line plot with experimental data of rate of catalysis and substrate concentration as the experimental variables. I won't bother to go into further detail on these plotting methods in this ASCII medium, except to say that the method of Ahrrenius plot will be explored in a bit of detail when we later examine the relevance of temperature to the rate of catalysis. So far we have studied the rate of catalysis versus substrate concentration in the simple zero-order case in which a single substrate molecule is catalytically transformed into a single product molecule. Despite all the algebra the result is simple. To get a higher rate for a given amount of enzyme under fixed conditions of temperature, pH etc, you can add more substrate. The rate {v0) increases almost linearly till the substrate concentration gets up around Km. Beyond that concentration the increase in the production rate slows significantly and eventually hits a maximum at v0 = V = k2*[E0] (and V equals two times the rate at [A] = Km, btw). Next time we'll examine the more relevant case of enzymes with two substrates. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:52:52 +1100 From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Barley flour, the wet G'day all well first i like to add to this post <Scott.Morgan at aus.sun.com> Subject: barley flour Heres something that Graham Sanders has not even had experience with. HAs anyone had any experience with Barley Flour. Found some in a healthfood store and wondered about it.<<<, Now my experience with wheat flour has left me very impressed. The wheat flour has left a very nice "wheat bite" in my weissen (that I have not gotten any other way), almost as good as a little lactic mash. Know I could experiment with 50% barley flour (and truth be known will probably give it a shot with a Pilsner soon), so to test the knowledgables out there - What would be the effect on flavour of a Pilsner if I use 50% barley flour. lets assume I go through the gluten and protein rests. Now on a side not with Scotts posting, I intend to speak privately with the lad. First rule when talking to these yanks "dont tell them what you dont know". Scott I will be having words. Shout Graham Sanders oh Bloody wet is f'en early and giving me the right royal Sh+ts. Hasn't stopped for nearly three weeks, and doesn't look like stopping til March. We could be in for one of those "Big Wet". Bloody hell, I even have tadpoles swimming arround the backyard in between the grass. Toilet sitting next year goin'to be dangerous. Gential grabbing frogs are going to be everywhere. Wonder how those 'survivor' are coping. Bet they have never seen it rain like that. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:56:35 +1100 From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Fwd: ah the children of the world G'Day All WHAT HAVE I DONE??????? All of a sudden, its seems everyone wants a piece of little 'ol me. I just can't understand why. I'm following religiously the new bible for the HBD (hey I received two copies of the bloody thing) and still those damn yanks are after me. I would almost treat it seriously, but we must remember that it only comments for a people who are experts at stuffing things up, hey they can't even do a simple thing like voting. But I know the Europeans still love me. I have my Servo Myces and much thanks goes to that thoughtful chap who sent it. I would mention his name but i fear what the yanks might do to him. I have formulated a theory and now will conduct rigorous Nth Qld type experiments to see if I can disprove such. And even thou I did receive an actual Bavarian Passport (people it is an impressive document - I am going to have to revise our own passport) I must decline your offer to join the Common Market. I dont think you could handle the quantum leap to our utopia. So I ignore their childish jibes and concentrate on more important Nth Qld matters. Now the wet has truly set it up here. Been averaging a good inch most days the last two weeks (and the monsoon hasn't even arrived). Little town south of here got 9 inches in six hours, so my poor brew room is on hold til it lifts. Still I have got a temporary roof on it, and will use it to knock up my Crystal Wit beer this weekend, lactic mash and all. But there is a disaster up here, My world beer domination plans are set back at least a year. There will be no Longing for a Longan Lambic this year, The crop is a disaster. the tree is barer than a nympho in the footballs team locker room. And there will be no mango spirits this year - that tree barely has enough to feed the family. (I wonder if the CIA has something to do with this) Oh bugger it I will comment to the children out there children From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com> Subject: The Shout Effect Thomas Klepfer wrote of "The Shout": >In a worst case scenario, this >could possibly fling our Australian friends out into deep space. Some of >them are rather light-headed, making them easier to fling. Beware "The >Shout"! Perhaps if we coil a few feet of copper tubing around Graham and attach it to the sink, we can reduce the effects of "The Shout" <<<<< I've told you all before, we all know Nth Qld is recognised as the brewing centre of the world. Everything radiates from God's own Country, be it the loving energy that I impart on all yeast the world over (go forth and multiply ) (thats why yeast settle on the far side of the bottle - the shout effect indeed) or this need the world has of needing to know what plans I have in the brewing world - God its tough being a Martyr - hey saint Arnold. and this From: Sean Macleod <sean at bankwest.com.au> Subject: Off-Topic: but quite funny :) > > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE<<< As Monthy Python says "Say no more!!!!!!!!!!!!" Rod gots me worried From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Moss grows on the North side of the Beer bottle I Besides, I usually carry a compass when I plan on getting lost in the woods. It just so happened that my Compass had too many homebrews that night. My question is, does moss grow on the south side in Australia and does the yeast grow on the other side of the bottle?<<< Its a bit of a contradiction - he plans to get lost. But Rod use the Shout Effect. Watch the movement of yeast and walk in the other direction. Thats straight to me - oh shit what am I'm saying - otherway mate - OTHER WAY. Now a little correction From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com> Subject: off topic:but quite funny Sean, Must be hard living in and being a citizen of the "ARM PIT" of the world. Been there, didn't like it, don't need it. ... DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS.<<<< Strange i don't even recall anyone here wanting you to stay. notice your application was outrightly refused for a permit to visit Nth Qld. (the Public servant has been promoted for his good work) . On a side note I find Texans funny, everything is bigger, larger, better there, til they come to Aus, and find out we have stations bigger than Texas itself. Ongoing joke to a Texan when they see a roo and say "what's that?---- Dont you have grasshoppers over there!!!! Shout Graham Sanders Oh cant part til I put Dr. P back in his cage. >>From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se> Subject: Reprimanding Graham but recognising his talents (off topic) Graham wrote some pretty vitriolic stuff: > I quote from 'Moral American for Beginners' > Chapter one page 16 > You have admitted in the past mate "i'm always right". Listen carefully "I quote" after all this is the new world standard. >>>You wouldn't think that a guy that has sat in front of an open oven door in the Queensland heat, turning his brain into the consistancy of an over ripe custard apple would still possess such predictive powers.<<< Yeh frightening isn't it!!!!!! >>Ignorant? Who says I'm ignorant? Hell, I'll have you know I've been to College......Electoral College.<<<< With you there mate. Did you know the USA doesn't even have an Independent Electoral Commission of any kind. No wonder its soo corrupt I recon all election there now need to be monitored by the U.N. - they need it. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:56:36 +1100 From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Fwd: Barley flour, the wet G'day all well first i like to add to this post <Scott.Morgan at aus.sun.com> Subject: barley flour Heres something that Graham Sanders has not even had experience with. HAs anyone had any experience with Barley Flour. Found some in a healthfood store and wondered about it.<<<, Now my experience with wheat flour has left me very impressed. The wheat flour has left a very nice "wheat bite" in my weissen (that I have not gotten any other way), almost as good as a little lactic mash. Know I could experiment with 50% barley flour (and truth be known will probably give it a shot with a Pilsner soon), so to test the knowledgables out there - What would be the effect on flavour of a Pilsner if I use 50% barley flour. lets assume I go through the gluten and protein rests. Now on a side not with Scotts posting, I intend to speak privately with the lad. First rule when talking to these yanks "dont tell them what you dont know". Scott I will be having words. Shout Graham Sanders oh Bloody wet is f'en early and giving me the right royal Sh+ts. Hasn't stopped for nearly three weeks, and doesn't look like stopping til March. We could be in for one of those "Big Wet". Bloody hell, I even have tadpoles swimming arround the backyard in between the grass. Toilet sitting next year goin'to be dangerous. Gential grabbing frogs are going to be everywhere. Wonder how those 'survivor' are coping. Bet they have never seen it rain like that. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:00:44 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: CO2 Scott wrote : >Our outside temperature is near freezing now, Yes, we know. You said that when you said the CO2 pressure guage read 500 psig. That is the vapor pressure of CO2 over liquid at freezing. At room temperature the guage will read about 850 psi. Remember that in a CO2 bottle the CO2 is in liquid form as long as the temperature is below 87 F (at which temperature the guage will read about 1100 psi.). Above 87 the pressure will be proportional to the amount of gas and the temperature. Below 87 the reading depends only on the temperature and you cannot tell how full the bottle is by looking at the pressure gauge. Weighing is the only reliable way to know how much gas remains. An approximate determination can be made by placing the bottle in the freezer and leaving it there until it is well chilled. Now remove it into a somewhat humid room. Condensation will form and perhaps freeze. As the bottle warms up, the parts not in contact with cold CO2 liquid will warm faster and the condensate will melt and/or evaporate so you will be able to see the level of the liquid. This is somewhat awkward but a neat trick which was posted here years ago by I remember not whom so I can't give credit where it is due. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:39:37 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Melton <meltongl at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Brewing with Steam? Marc Donnelly asked for links concerning brewing with steam. Brewing Techniques had a good article several years ago that is still on line at http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/jones.html Later, Bud __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:04:49 -0800 From: "Frank E. Kalcic" <fkalcic at prodigy.net> Subject: Natural gas burners Has anyone seen an economically priced burner that using natural gas will put out over 150,000 btu? Thanks Frank Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:38:17 -0600 From: "Steinbrunner, Jim (JE)" <steinbrunnerje at dow.com> Subject: Gambrinus Bush and Gore can forget it; here is our true leader; a man larger than life! http://www.infomagic.net/~martince/hbgmbrns.htm Jim Steinbrunner, Loyal Serf Midland, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:28:34 -0600 From: Doug Hurst <DougH at theshowdept.com> Subject: thanks, scientific method First I would like to say that I am enourmously grateful to the HBD janitors for a quick and efficient change over. Only in it's absence did I come to realize how important this forum is to my bewing knowledge (and daily slacking at work). Thank you. Steven Alexander wrote: "If someone posts that "doing 'X' makes my beers better" you can be sure that in time others will try to confirm or deny the causal relationship under other brewing conditions. It may turn out the original post has limited applicability or incorrectly interpreted cause, but such a post should be read as a call for confirmation of a questionable hypothesis and not as fact. BTW - most pro-experiments test a hypothesis where the author suspects a particular and interesting result. It's the nature of any research that effort is expended where suspicions and limited observations occur, and we should thank, not punish, the good folks who bring these limited observations and guesses to our attention. If nothing else they make us think." Here, Here. What I love about this hobby is that it is part science and part art/craft. Sometimes I think people get caught up in the art side and forget about true scientific method. One thing that I think should be remembered is that scientific theories are only that if they are repeatable and disprovable. That is, theories can and should be tested for validity. Too often people say that X is a fact when X happens every time. This is not so. All that can be said is that X has occured every time and will probably occur again. Assuming correct test methodology, a result of Y when X was expected calls the theory into question. What I'm failing to say is that the great thing about science is it's skepticism and ability to question itself and change if a test should contradict a previous theory. That is one of the many things that makes this forum so valuable. It allows all of us to see what others do, try it ourselves, argue about the results and try it again. Hopefully we then come to have at least a small bit better understanding of what we are doing/what's going on when we brew. Brew On! Doug Hurst Chicago, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:54:31 -0000 From: Anthony Torrez <perpacity at hotmail.com> Subject: Cornie help I just purchased some corny kegs and am fairly new this, in fact I dont even have a CO2 tank yet. Now I hear about people using cornies as secondaries and cutting off the dip-tube so as not to suck up any yeast. I was wondering what the result would be if you left the full length tube intact, and after a reasonable secondary fermentation (2-3 weeks), if one could just siphon off a glass or two (maybe more?) of very sedimented beer, and essentially remove the sediment from the beer. It seems like it'd work. Anybody out there have any experience/comments on this idea which has probably been tried before. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:44:22 -0500 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com> Subject: Anyone using the mashmate? Anyone out there using one of these : http://home.att.net/~JackSue/ and would care to comment? Looks pretty interesting. cheers, -alan Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:28:28 -0600 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: Calcium carbonate in Brett medium So now that my ISP can find you again, I get back online to find there's a controversy about a guy named Sean sending the Independence Revocation. Different Sean. This Sean also received it the other day, thought a minute about sending it to hbd, then chickened out. I don't have access to any notes right now, being in mid-move, but I think the answer to Fred's question about the insolubility of calcium carbonate in Brettanomyces medium is that no, 0.5% does not dissolve. I remember some comment about grinding the CaCO3.xH20 finely and it being a real pain to observe the colonies from below because the agar is cloudy, and later you get clear zones around the colonies. For liquid medium I would still grind it finely, and you will have to swirl up the contents of the flask regularly to try allow the base to react with the acid as it forms. Sean Richens srichens.spamsucks at sprint.ca Return to table of contents
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