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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re:  Pollution Concern ("Joel King")
  Re: History help (jal)
  Speckled Hen help ("Bruce Garner")
  RE: HopBack ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: Old Speckled Hen (Jeff Renner)
  Re: bottling with LME ("Frank J. Russo")
  beer swap? (Paulfarns)
  Re: Beer in Ireland ("Darryl Newbury")
  re: coriader powder ("Joseph Marsh")
  The underattenuation blues (Paul Shick)
  Shameless Plugs ("Eric Fouch")
  Dark malts in Schwarzbier (RiedelD)
  using grape concentrate as a beer additive? ("Richard B. Dulany Jr.")
  Pollution Concern ("Bret Mayden")
  Matching Scars (Dave Burley)
  Interspousal Communication (Dave Burley)


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*
* Bluebonnet Brew-Off Entry Deadline is 2/25/01!
* http://welcome.to/bluebonnet for more information
*
* Drunk Monk Challenge Entry Deadline is 3/17/01!
* http://www.sgu.net/ukg/dmc/ for more information
*
* Maltose Falcons Mayfaire Entry Deadline is 3/20/01!
* http://www.maltosefalcons.com/ for more information
*

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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:48:54 -0000
From: "Joel King" <joel_d_king at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Pollution Concern

Although I only use 1/4 cup of bleach in 35 gallons of water for my bottle 
sanitizing soaking solution, and only change it out 2 or 3 times a year, I 
have resolved to have my family begin drinking the expended water to prevent 
just this pollution nightmare.  -- Joel King --

>>Benjy Edwards writes:  I urge those of you who dump your sanitizing 
>>agent... onto your lawn, the driveway, or some other place outdoors (even 
>>a storm sewer) to please consider your actions.  The chemicals are toxic 
>>and damage the environment....
     As brewers we should be mindful of our environment and the delicate 
balance of the ecosystem.  Many environmental groups desire everyone to 
limit the amount of household cleaners that we dispose of in our drains, as 
well.  Chemicals such as bleach tax our water treatment plants.<<


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:59:12 -0600 (CST)
From: jal at novia.net
Subject: Re: History help



Mr. Renner responded to Mr. Bratcher's query regarding the history of APA:

>I think that New Albion's pale ale from California back in the 
>(early?) 80's was the original, and its indirect successor, Sierra 
>Nevada (which I think may have had some of the same people) 
>popularized the style.  It's now a classic imitated around the 
>country and, indeed, out of the country.

While I haver no references at my disposal, I can correct a couple of data 
points here from personal experience:

New Albion started business in Sonoma, CA, in the late 70s. I used to come home 
to Sonoma County from college ca '78, driving through the city of Sonoma to 
pick a case of New Albion. I don't know when New Albion shut its doors, but it 
wasn't too long after that.

Mendocino Brewing's founders are the same people who did New Albion. I don't 
have the names of the individuals involved, but I believe they are still using 
the same yeast.

As to whether New Albion Ale was an APA, I cannot say. (I couldn't have told a 
cascade from a cluster from an EKG in those days, and wouldn't have known a 
sack of Klages if it hit me over the head.) Sierra Nevada is certainly the 
archetype.

Jim Larsen
Omaha
a long day's drive west of the center of the brewing universe




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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:22:11 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Speckled Hen help

Jake Asks

> Can anyone help me out with a recipe for Old Speckled Hen?  I found over
> twenty references in the archives, but no recipes.

I can't give you a recipe but Roger Protz says in The Real Ale Almanac that
Old Speckled Hen has an OG of 1050, ABV 5.2%.

Ingredients: Pale Malt, Crystal Malt, Brewing Sugar, 32-37 units of colour.
Challenger whole hops for bitterness, Goldings for aroma. 30-35 units of
bitterness.

The brewing sugar would be invert sugar. Hope you can work from this

Bruce in Madison, WI



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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: HopBack

Hi, 

I recently discussed the two hopbacks made by PBS with them. I am
looking to get one and wasn't sure if they made one that I wanted.
They have two models. A 1.5 ounce (I think) and a 3.5 ounce hopback.
If it is made anything like their MaxiChiller it is a great product
(As the Maxi is far better than the inferior copies out there like
the  ChillZilla that Anita from Great Fermentations makes). 

I also like PBS for their business practices and patience when
answering my sometimes drawn out and vague questions that seem to go
nowhere (Jeff Renner understands this first hand...)

I believe that the HopBacks from PBS are both between $75 and $100. I
believe the 3.5 ouncer will be my next purchase. 

http://www.pbsbeer.com/pbs/hopback.html

Brew on errr something fellow plaid lovers. 

C'ya!

 -Scott



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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:22:02 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Old Speckled Hen

Jacob Jacobsen <brewer at cotse.com> asked

>Can anyone help me out with a recipe for Old Speckled Hen?  I found over
>twenty references in the archives, but no recipes.

The Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA, http://www.camra.org.uk/) _Real Ale 
Almanac_ by Roger Protz is an excellent resource for ingredients for 
British real ales.  Unfortunately, some breweries are less 
forthcoming than others in revealing details about their recipes. 
Moreland's is one.  They have shared only these details: "OG 1035, 
ABV 4% [which indicates a well attenuated ale, suggesting a fair 
proportion of brewing sugar is used], Pipkin pale malt, crystal, 
brewing sugar.  26-31 units of colour [no doubt EBC, which is roughly 
double lovibond].  Challenger for bitterness and Goldings for aroma; 
hop pellets./  31-36 units of bitterness."  My comments in square 
brackets[].

As with any attempt to clone, using the same yeast is crucial.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:14:16 -0500
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Re: bottling with LME

>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:02:45 -0600
>From: Jeremy Lakey <Jeremy at imc2.com>
>Subject: bottling with LME


Jeremy, this is not a problem. I mix up 1.5 liters/quarts wort of the same
OG as my brew and store in the refrigerator.  Use it to prime.


Frank Russo
ATF HomeBrew Club
New Bern NC.
"There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."



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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:02:22 EST
From: Paulfarns at aol.com
Subject: beer swap?

Greetings all
                    One of my malting and brewing science students has a 
severe craving for fondly remembered  Yeungling, which is not available here 
in Texas. Is there anyone out there with access to this product who wants to 
trade some for Texas beers?

  Paul Farnsworth
   Univ Texas  at  San Antonio


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:38:34 -0500
From: "Darryl Newbury" <darryl at sagedesign.com>
Subject: Re: Beer in Ireland 

I responded in private email to the original post, but should put my two
cents in here as well,  Ireland does have a small craft brewing movement.
You do not have to limit yourself to the big three breweries over there,
just like you dont have to limit your drinking in the US to A-B. The micro
I'm most familiar with is Dublin Brewing Company. Their website,
www.dublinbrewing.com, list pubs where they are available if you are
travelling to Ireland. Here in Ontario, we are often able to get their
bottled product at our liquor stores, probably due to the fact that their
brewer once brewed for a micro here . Dublin's D'Arcy Stout is quite
frankly the best dry stout I've ever tasted. Much the way that Jeff
Renner's CAP towers over Budweiser, D'Arcy Stout stands far above Guinness
and is likely truer to the traditional taste of a dry stout than the
current versions of Guinness, Murphy's or Beamish. Fortunately, I have one
bottle left for St Patricks Day.

Cheers Darryl
Toronto, Ontario



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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:49:30 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: coriader powder

Hi,

I've read that ground coriader gives an off flavor and a better way to use 
it is to just bearly crush whole seeds. The ground stuff is said to give a 
meaty flavor. I got this from Al Korzonis' book "Homebrewing Vol I". He is 
often sited in other peoples books and I've seen several prize winning 
recipies of his. I guess he knows his stuff.

Hope this helps,
                  Joe


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:59:55 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: The underattenuation blues


Hello all,

    I've had difficulties with underattenuation with the 
first three batches I've brewed since (finally) setting up 
the brewery at our new house.  I'm pretty baffled by what's
going on, and I hoped someone in the collective could
suggest something I've overlooked.

    In all three cases, the fermentations started after
quite reasonable lag times, went through very vigorous
initial stages, but slowed to a halt well before all the
fermentable sugars were gone.  The first, 10 gallons of
1.058 OG ESB, was pitched with over a pint of slurry of
Wyeast 1028 London yeast from a local brewer, well aerated
with pure O_2.  In a 12.2 gallon conical, it took off 
nicely  at  72F, kept warm in my 55F basement with an electric
heating pad.  The fermentation was quite vigorous, getting
up to 76F at one point, but stopped at 1.020, with a grist
that had very little specialty malts (so not too many
unfermentables.)  The mash temperatures were pretty low
(150F for 35 min, raised slowly to 158F at 45 min, then raised
to 164F for runoff at 70 min.)  The mash tun thermometer seems
accurate, reading the same as the hot liquor tank and the
kettle, both of which were calibrated with boiling water
or wort.  By the way, the fermentor temperatures were given
by a liquid crystal temperature strip taped to the side of the
fermentor.  It agrees with the other thermometers on the ambient
basement temp, so it can't be off by more than a degree or two.

   The two later batches were 10 gal of light cream ale (1.049 OG,)
pitched with 21g of Cooper's dry yeast (for a friend's March
Madness party,) and a serious IPA (1.065 OG, 100+ IBUs) on the
dregs of the Cooper's yeast.  My thought was to use a reliable
dry yeast to be sure to get quick, thorough fermentations. Again, 
both fermented very strongly, but quit early: 1.018 for the cream ale 
and 1.022 for the IPA.  And yes, before you ask, I did calibrate the
hydrometer and correct for temperature when taking the SG.  I'm
hoping both might finish out a bit more as they sit, but the 
cream ale (not really a CACA) has dropped bright, so I'm not
optimistic.  It's possible that the IPA might be done, given that
the grist was one half German Munich, but it tastes too sweet
to me (even under the hop barrage.)  Certainly there's no way the
cream ale is done at 1.018, with almost no unfermentables.

    The usual culprits for underattenuation seem to be addressed:
I pitched reasonable amounts of yeast, arerated thoroughly and got
very good, healthy starts to the fermentation.  All three were 
from grists which should supply plenty of FAN: all-grain, Briess
two row and pale ale malts (with the IPA being roughly half German
Munich.)  There shouldn't be anything untoward in the water, which
is Cleveland Municipal water from Lake Erie, which I used for many
batches in the old house, about 1 mile away.  There's no sign of
contamination:  the ESB tastes fine (albeit sweet, as expected) in
the keg, and the CA and IPA taste clean in hydrometer samples.

    One possibility that crossed my mind is that I may be recirculating
too much with my semi-RIMS, stripping too many lipids from the wort.
Again, though, this has never been a problem with many past batches
with this same system.  I wondered, too, about whether or not there
might be a shortage of zinc, or some other metal, that yeast need in
small amounts, that would only show up toward the tail end of the
ferment.  To (partially) address this, I added some winemaker's
yeast nutrient to the most recent batch (a Pilsner.)  We'll see
if this helps.  If nothing else, it certainly addresses any concerns
about adequate FAN.  Another possibility might be CO_2 toxicity.  I
used an immersion chiller for all three, with the cooled wort pumped
to the fermentor through the hop bed and an easymasher screen.  This
would get rid of most of the hot and cold break, so there might be
too few nucleation sites for CO_2 to bubble out.  However, I did
very vigorously rouse the fermentor several times, once the gravity
readings began to stick.  This caused a lot of outgassing of CO_2
and should have helped with any toxicity problems.  Maybe this is
worth looking into, since the stainless steel fermentor might have
fewer nucleation sites than carboys.  This didn't seem to be a problem
with past batches in the same fermentor, though.

    If anyone has any suggestions about what's going on, I'd be
grateful (especially if your idea for the problem has an easy 
solution.)  I'll keep an eye on the Pilsner, to see if the yeast
nutrient helps, but it seems unlikely to me.  In the meantime,
I pose this as a nice "puzzler" for the group.  Thanks in advance
for any help you can provide.

			Paul Shick
			Basement brewing (but fermenting
			poorly) in Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:22:16 -0500
From: "Eric Fouch" <airrick147 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Shameless Plugs

Gosh Kyle this is all so sudden!
I don't know if I'm ready for a Siebel Short Course, but if you would like 
to defray my cost's for the BJCP exam, I would really appreciate THAT.
Our club, in conjunction with some other local club(s) will be pursuing
training sessions in the West Michgan area with Rex Halfpenny, then sitting 
for the exam, perhaps this fall.  At $50 for the exam, I'll take some of the 
proceeds from your sales if you're offering.

Fred wants to know exactly what *kind* of shameless plugs you are selling?

Eric Fouch
C/O Fred Garvin
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:29:17 -0500
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Dark malts in Schwarzbier

While we're on the topic of what malts to use to darken
a dunkelweizen... what's the consensus on Schwarzbier?

BJCP discusses "supplemented by a small amount of 
roasted malts for the dark color and subtle roast flavors".
So how much and what variety do people tend to use.  I
used about 100g (4/5ths chocolate, 1/5 patent) in a 23L
batch with a little (25g) of Special-B.  The main grist was
about 50% Munich.  

The flavour of the wort, post-boil, was about what I expected,
but the colour was definately a little light.  Not very black.
More like dunkel in colour (translucent brown).

Any thoughts?
Dave
Victoria, BC, Canada.






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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:18:50 -0700
From: "Richard B. Dulany Jr." <RDulany at co.el-paso.tx.us>
Subject: using grape concentrate as a beer additive?

Greetings,

I recently made a batch of wine from some Alexander's Sauvignon Blanc
concentrate. The grape concentrate smelled and tasted great, and I
immediately thought about incorporating some into a beer (NOT mead/pyment)
recipe.

Could the grape concentrate could be substituted for honey in a beer recipe?
The concentrate is packaged at "68 Brix". I don't know how that sugar
content compares to honey. The grape concentrate would be partially
reconstituted, heated to 170F for 15-20 min., then added to the wort after
the boil.

Has anyone ever tried this? There are no "beer+grape concentrate" recipes in
HBD archives. Either no one has tried this or it's a really bad idea.

One concern is that some sulfites are added to the grape concentrate, but
probably not at a sufficient concentration to inhibit the yeast. I'm making
that assumption because every concentrate-winemaking recipe calls for adding
additional Campden tablets or similar preservative before adding the yeast.

Richard Dulany


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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:27:50 -0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Pollution Concern

Benjamin Edwards wrote:
"I urge those of you who dump your sanitizing agent (whether it be
iodophor, bleach, etc.) onto your lawn, the driveway, or some other place 
outdoors (even a storm sewer) to please consider your actions.  The 
chemicals are toxic and damage the environment, as well as pollute
groundwater.  Moreover, dumping chemicals in such a way is in violation of 
the federal Clean Water Act. As brewers we should be mindful of our 
environment and the delicate balance of the ecosystem.  Many environmental 
groups desire everyone to limit the amount of household cleaners that we 
dispose of in our drains, as well.  Chemicals such as bleach tax our water 
treatment plants."

I have some questions:

Is it OK to dump the various sanitizers down the household drain?  If not, 
where do we get rid of them?  Where do you dispose of them?

Are these chemicals specifically mentioned in the Clean Water Act as being 
illegal to dump outdoors?  What about all the chemicals used in car wash 
cleaners that go down the driveway to the storm sewer? Building exterior 
cleaners?  Vehicle windshield washer fluid? Are we actually violating the 
Act by washing our cars in our driveways, cleaning our wood siding, or using 
our windshield washers as we drive?

People have been using bleach for decades in their laundry, which ends up in 
our water treatment plants.  Are we approaching some kind of breakdown 
threshold where the handful (compared to hundreds of millions of launderers) 
of homebrewers putting bleach down the drain will trigger treatment plant 
failures?

Bret Mayden
Oklahoma City
brmayden at hotmail.com






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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:29:28 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Matching Scars

Brewsters:

For those many of you who have asked where I have gone and contacted me
direct;ly I have told you my tale but some have asked me to broadcast my
medical condition ( already commented on by Braam) so here goes.  I am
still here, just tied up with catching up and going to physical therapy.

I was surprised to find that angioplasty carried out in September had not
only done no good but the stents were scarring ( 15% of the cases) and I
was worse off in December. Further to my surprise I had a triple by-pass on
23
December and was home for presents and Christmas dinner on Boxing Day (Dec
26). Which was when we planned to have it anyway to accomodate my son's
travel schedule. I should have known I was scheduled for this as two of my
three brothers have matching scars and one liked it so much he had it done
a second time.  Both brothers are/were skinny and one was extremely
athletic and weighs what he weighed in high school. Genes will tell, I
guess.

Anyway, thanks for all your kind comments and prayers. Like MacArthur I
shall return when I can spend more than a limited time sitting up at the
computer and get caught up around the farm.  I need to walk more and keep
my feet elevated when I sit. Hopefully it won't be long and all the walking
and
in-place bike riding and checking out all those pretty re-hab nurses will
do its job.

Worst part of all this is I can't lift carboys for a while and I am missing
the brewing weather. 65F tomorrrow so I can prune my grapes!

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:36:33 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Interspousal Communication

Brewsters:

Forgot to include this with my other note to make it beer related.

Husband's note to wife:  "Doctor called said Pabst Beer is normal"


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


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