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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  A.H.A. conference roll call. (Steve De Rose)
  RE: Brown malt substitute ("George de Piro")
  easy starters ("George de Piro")
  Hop experiment ("Fred L. Johnson")
  More on Bazooka Screen (I'm getting tired) (james r layton)
  Re: Yellow powder in whole hops (Rob B)
  Re: AHA membership number ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Siphon induced contamination ("Steven Parfitt")
  THE DREAM MASH TUN ("Hill, Steve")
  FWH (Greg Remake)
  Re: Yellow powder in whole hops (Demonick)
  YAP-CAP Experiment (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re: kill 'em ("patrick finerty jr.")
  CAP experiment -- controlling variables (Frank Tutzauer)
  hbd'ers / The cap exp (David Harsh)
  Yellow powder in whole hops (Dave Wills)
  Regulator woes (Jeff E)
  Re: substitute for brown malt ("RJ")
  Re: cider starter ("RJ")


* 
* 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA
* June 20th-23rd See http://www.beerodyssey.com for more 
* information.
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:31:36 -0500
From: Steve De Rose <peteyone at mail.netwave.net>
Subject: A.H.A. conference roll call.

   Yes, who else here on HBD is going to Los Angeles for this year's
American Homebrewers Association Conference?
   I reserved my hotel room in Los Angeles at the Sheraton Four
Points LAX. I _definitely_ would prefer at least one other person in
my room to divide this room cost. I'm staying from Wednesday (20 June)
through Sunday (24 June). That's four nights.
   If you have made your reservation and requested the A.H.A. Room
Rate, I have some bizarre news for you. The A.H.A. did not negotiate
the best rate.
   I went to _Travelocity_ [http://www.travelocity.com/],
logged-on, and looked up some LAX-area hotels. Travelocity is offering
the Four Points Sheraton LAX for $69.95 - $75.95 | night.
   I know what you're saying: "Pudgy, you're not going to be able to
get a room in there during the dates of the A.H.A. Conference for that
rate."
   But this credit card Confirmation Code and Travelocity Trip ID 
{holds paper up to the monitor screen} will prove otherwise. I've just 
been nicked for $341.00 for the four nights of the A.H.A. Conference, 
with a change|cancellation penalty if I try to do so. The Four Points 
Sheraton LAX has been *_prepaid_*. And so far as I am concerned, I 
have a room there, and it had better not try to tell me I will have to 
pay more.
   Here's how the room nights actually break out = 
20 June = $75.95
21 June = $69.95
22 June = $75.95
23 June = $75.95
Total before taxes = $297.80
Total = $341.00
   If you are interested in sharing this room, please contact me. If
you have not yet made your hotel reservation for the Four Points
Sheraton LAX, and you want your own room, I think it would be a keen
move on your part to bypass the A.H.A. rate, and reserve through
Travelocity.
   Steve "Pudgy" De Rose  3=)>
Seattle got Brian Davis. Chicago got Boeing.
Seems like a good swap to me.
http://207.112.132.14/members/peteyone/index.html


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:08:19 -0400
From: "George de Piro" <george at evansale.com>
Subject: RE: Brown malt substitute

Hi all, and especially Hubert!

Hubert asks if any of the Weyermann products will be a good substitute for
brown malt.  I now use Weyermann malts almost exclusively, but I have used
many other malts in my brewing experience.  This includes Fawcett brown
malt.

Fawcett brown malt is a truly unique product, yielding a beer with a
pronounced coffee aroma while not boosting the color tremendously.  I know
of no Weyermann malt that will do this (sorry Sabine!).

If you are making a very dark beer, and therefore do not care about keeping
the color light, than Weyermann Carafa II will yield a nice coffee and cocoa
aroma, similar to many English and American chocolate malts.  Otherwise, you
have to get brown malt.

By the way:  Hubert, I still use the "Die Weisse" yeast that you gave me for
my Weizen beer!  Almost 3 years on slant, and still going strong!  I thank
you again!

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas






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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:18:23 -0400
From: "George de Piro" <george at evansale.com>
Subject: easy starters

Hi all,

I noticed two posts about "easy" yeast starter mediums.  One suggest using
apple cider, the other Malta.

I strongly recommend against using these things as starters.  Both are quite
low in amino acids, and the sugar profiles are much different than typical
brewer's wort.  Remember that Malta is very high in adjuncts.

While you can grow yeast in this way, it will very likely affect the yeast
in a negative way , thus affecting your beer in a negative way.  Of course,
some yeast strains may deal with the drastic changes in wort composition
better than others, but way leave it to chance?

I always (even as a homebrewer) make up extra wort during each brew session
to set aside for future yeast propagations.  In this way, there is no extra
effort to make the starter media, and it is true brewer's wort.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
www.EvansAle.com

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas




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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:53:34 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Hop experiment

George DePiro presented an interesting experiment testing hop aroma
following different hop additions, but I was confused by the methods.
It is not clear when the measurements were made RELATIVE to the hop
ADDITIONS.  Or were these all different brews with a SINGLE hop addition at
the various times cited?

We need some TIMES to interpret the results.
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:35:37 -0500
From: james r layton <blutick at juno.com>
Subject: More on Bazooka Screen (I'm getting tired)

Marshall George scorched me for my comments on the Bazooka screen and hop
pellets. Hey, I never said that it wasn't a great product. I've heard
nothing but praise for it from several satisfied users.

>If you're so concerned with 4" of pellet hops in your 10 gallon BW batch
then maybe
>you should be looking for alternative sources for hops so you don't have
to
>use that much pellet hops.

Please. I've been brewing for several years. I can buy hops in either
form, and I have brewed quite a few beers with both kinds. I have decided
that I prefer pellet hops for all kettle additions. I have also formed
some opinions about what works and what doesn't (or might not under 
worst case conditions) for getting the liquid seperated from the solids.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX 


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:46:40 +1000
From: Rob B <rbyrnes at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Yellow powder in whole hops 

Most likely it is lupulin ... the part of the hop flower that contains most 
of the oils that brewers are interested in.  As you said, male plants are 
only used to pollenate the female plants, so as to breed new varieties.

Cheers,
Rob

In HOMEBREW Digest #3641, you wrote:
>HOMEBREW Digest #3641
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:34:51 -0500
>From: "Tracy P. Hamilton" <chem013 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu>
>Subject: Yellow powder in whole hops
>
>What is it?  It looks like pollen to me, but...
>
>If pollen, I thought male plants were generally discouraged because
>of unwanted cross hybrids that could result.
>
>Inquiring mind wants to know.
>
>Tracy P. Hamilton
>Birmingham Brewmasters

Mankind has been on a bad trip for a long time now.
This is random quote 679 of a collection of 1125 .



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:51:49 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: AHA membership number

Frank asked:
This is a lame question, but who can tell me the telephone number to call
to find out my AHA membership number?

call Gary Glass at 888-822-6273



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:12:29 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Siphon induced contamination

Some of you may remember my previous posts concerning my Hefe-Weizen that 
went sour (kind of BerlinerWeizen i suppose).

I finally admitted to myself (after many e-mail, thank all of you) that the 
most likely source is myself (I will therefore spare the dog and cat).

My unsanitary habit of "mouth starting" the syphon is the suspected culprit.

Last night I stopped by my local auto parts place and picked up a
"MightyVac" type pump. They are used to create a partial pressure (no such 
thing as vacuum) to bleed break lines.

The "Vacuum" pump came with a 24" section of rubber hose, and several 
adapters, including a "T". I used the hose and adapter that has a conical 
into the line to syphon from a 5gal carboy to a corny keg. The line was 
filled in three or four squeezes of the pump handle. The second test was 
racking a batch of Mild from the boil pot to primary. Again, about four 
pumps of the handle and the line was full. The only thing ackward is holding 
the vinyl tubing high enough for the air to be pulled out with the pump, 
otherwise you get bubbles in the line.

For those who have problems with contamination and suspect their mouth 
starting the syphon, this device is for you. The high quality ones are a tad 
on the expensive side ($36). I considered what a spoiled batch of beer is 
worth in time and effort, and for me it was worth it.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN 5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:46:50 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <Steve.Hill at apfs.com>
Subject: THE DREAM MASH TUN

Hey you -- CAP/FERMENTER experimental people - get a life and brew MORE
beer!  

Now that I got your attention - I need help!  I need a stainless 55 gallon
Drum or larger for my DREAM mash tun!  Other than Mc Master - any
suggestions?  I want to mash 110 1lbs at a time to make the Almighty sami
clause! - 

Now as for the EXPERIMENT you (the masses) are going to attempt.  Sounds
like a great Idea, but the results, are they REALLY going to matter for 99%
of the home brewers?

Now that I got you hot and bothered - GO BREW! 

Steve Hill



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:51:10 -0500
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: FWH

Hello all,

Nice to hear from George DP again, and he shares with us the first 
quantified results for first wort hopping that I have seen.  The results 
confirm my own empirical observations regarding FWH and hop aroma, namely 
that there is very little.  I'm wondering if the referenced paper provided 
any insights about FWH's bitterness and flavor contributions.  I've found 
that FWH's most noticeable contribution is flavor, although perceived 
bitterness is only slightly less than a beginning of boil addition.  I'd 
love to see some quantified data in this regard.

Now I'll sit back and wait to hear why this experiment was flawed, and how 
the results are inconclusive, etc. ...

Cheers!

Greg



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:25:42 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Yellow powder in whole hops


The yellow powder is the plant resins that contain the alpha and beta
bittering acids.  It is an exudate of the lupulin glands.  For a truely
bitter experience, pick up a bit of the powder on your finger and lick
it off.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com

FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or 
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't 
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:24:31 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: YAP-CAP Experiment

Yet Another Post on the CAP experiment.

Sometimes I brew a 10 gallon wort and split it into 2 5 gallon glass
fermenters.  Funny thing, the ensuing action and results in each fermenter
is different.

Now why would this be?

    * Maybe the wort is not mixed enough and had a uneven specific gravity.
I do not think so because I rock my immersion chiller and whirlpool.  This
should pretty well have the wort mixed.

    * Well, could the temps be different, I guess so, but in the same room,
in the same fridge, maybe so.

    * How about the yeast, I just eyeball half and half, this could be it.

So what I am getting at is I wonder just what will we learn from the
experiments.  How about a version of the triangle taste test - a triangle
fermentation test.

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:33:57 -0400
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: kill 'em

howdy,

i read about this a couple of days ago in the paper. it's an
interesting and possibly useful coating for us (brewers). it would be
useful for killing off anything that landed on our clean, mostly dry
brewing equipment. however, it should be noted that this coating will
not be useful in a fermenter filled with wort or simply water for that
matter. the high dielectric constant of water (remember it's 55 M!)
will shield the vast majority of the solution (and therefore
contaminating bacteria) from interactions with the surface. it will
also fail us when there is a small amount of 'food' left in some
crevice of your equipment due to poor cleaning practices. the bugs
will just grow on top of that, away from the coating...

 -patrick in Toronto


On Wednesday 23 May, 2001, Jeremy Bergsman wrote:

 > In the better living through chemistry department, here is an article that
 > describes modifying glass surfaces to make them kill bacteria on contact:
 > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/11/5981
 > Since they target human rather than beer pathogens (fools) I'm not sure how
 > useful this would be for lining your fermenter, or what effect it might have
 > on your yeast, but it's food for thought.



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:02:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: CAP experiment -- controlling variables

Regarding the CAP experiment, I teach statistics, and my suggestion is to
not stress too much over trying to control every variable.  To the extent
that the uncontrolled variables do exert an influence, then they'll
increase your error variance making it harder to see any effect of
geometry, but they won't lead to you concluding there is an effect when in
fact there isn't, assuming that the variables are random between the two
(or how ever many) groups.

Note, though, the assumption of randomness is important.  If all the
Cornelius keg fermentations were done in, say, the heat of the Australian
desert, and the CC fermentations were all done during a Buffalo winter,
then obviously fermentation temperature would be a confounding variable and
you wouldn't know if differences were due to vessel or temperature.  But if
the fermentation temperatures were random among the groups (a reasonable
assumption, I feel), then differences will not be due to temps.

Heck, we don't even have to brew the same beer.  If we were interested in a
claim like "The FG's will be different in a CC versus a Cornelius keg" I
could take a hundred brewers, assign half to each group, and randomly
assign them beers to brew out of the BJCP guide.  Any differences will be
due to vessel (or other non-equivalencies between groups, if any); they
will not be due to style.

Now, I am *not* saying we should be brewing different beers.  Nor am I
saying that we shouldn't control variables that are easy to control.  For
example, I think the suggestion to use a given brand of bottled water is a
good one, so as to eliminate variation due to water.  The better we control
variables, the better our chances of spotting other differences.  I'm just
saying don't go crazy trying to experimentally control things you can't.
Keep data on it, so we can see after the fact if it varied between the
groups, or perhaps statistically control it (as opposed to controlling it
by design), but don't stress.

- ---------------------

On a different topic, thanks to everyone who gave me numbers and addresses
to get my AHA number.  And thanks especially to Paul Gatza who spotted my
request and sent me my number directly!

 --frank



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:28:53 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: hbd'ers / The cap exp

Pannicke, Glen A. <glen_pannicke at merck.com> wrote:
> Anal retentive?  Well maybe...  I have been found to retain my head up my
> a$$ on occasion ;-)

You left out the hyphen  ;)  

- ------------
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu> pointed out:
> Wouldn't a smaller fermenter be more
> prone to stay closer to the ambient temperature, and a larger
> perhaps retain more heat due to the temperature of the fermentation
> process?  

I agree.  Surface to volume ratio is certainly a factor here.  Anybody
ever stick thermometers into their fermenters?  I've heard the 5-10 F
rule of thumb for difference between fermenter and ambient but figured
it was sort of a wild guess.

> I'd just be cautious about
> drawing firm conclusions from the results.

Agreed.  I guess the question is whether we want to determine *if* there
is an effect or *why* there is an effect.  Most people agree there is an
effect; the real question (to me, at least) is why.

Finally, I've changed my opinion and am willing to participate as a
brewer of CAP.  Jeff Renner pointed out to me in private e-mail that it
isn't possible to have too much CAP on hand.

Our club has a member that can do 100 or so gallons at a time and if
there is interest I can see if we can get enough BBL members to do split
ferments of a single wort.  

Dave Harsh					Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:17:52 -0700
From: Dave Wills <dave at freshops.com>
Subject: Yellow powder in whole hops

The yellow powder in your hops is lupulin not pollen. They are tiny 
resin glands that are tucked at the base of the cones petals, some 
falls out in handling. The gland is covered with a waxy skin within 
which lies all of the hops unique bittering (alpha acids) and 
aromatic (oil) compounds. Males hops do not produce cones. If a 
female hop is pollinated by a male hop then you get seeds along with 
the lupulin in the cones.

Dave Wills
Freshops


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:41:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff E <megajh73 at excite.com>
Subject: Regulator woes

Last night I was gassing up my cornie keg and my regulator broke.  I'm in
the process of sending it back to where I bought it, but I just want to make
sure I didn't do anything bad to cause it to break.  I had the gas on and
was turning the adjustment screw to increase the pressure and the adjustment
screw popped out. Has anyone had this happen.  Now it won't screw back in. 
I took it apart and the only thing I can figure is that the screw base
stripped out.  Any ideas or comments??

Jeff Hertz
Glen Ellyn, IL







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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:40:50 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: substitute for brown malt

"Hubert Hanghofer writes:

I hope this question isn't too silly to stay unanswered, but I'd like to
find
substitute for brown malt to brew some porter..."

Well Hubert, why don't you just make your own brown malt?  Here's a simple
way to do it...

Put some pale ale malt on a foil lined baking sheet to about a 1/2" deep...
(Stir grains every 15-20 min) Cook 45 min at 230F;  then 20 to 60 min at
300F checking every 15 min or so until the inside of the kernels have a
light tan color (cut some kernels in half before heating as a reference
point) at this point you'd have what would be considered Amber Malt... Once
the color is there, bump up the heat to 350F and continue until the inside
color is about the same as a brown paper bag...

There you have it, your own brown malt!





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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:50:18 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: cider starter

Dan S. wrote:

"... why not use simple pastuerized
apple cider (that you buy in the grocery store in the gallon
jugs) along with a little yeast nutrient for starter
material? "

The problem is the word "pastuerized"... Generally, pastuerized apple cider
has chemicals added that prevent further "natural" fermantation of the
cider, which would eventually become hard-cider, without these chemicals.

Plain, fresh, untreated & sweet apple cider would probably work quite well,
with an addition of some DME.

Ciao




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