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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Plastic discrimination... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Casking Real Ale (Dan Temple)
  Dave Line (Ant Hayes)
  pump duty cycle (The Freemans)
  Fermenter aspect ratio (Dave Burley)
  CCF dump valve size and type ("Czerpak, Pete")
  East Coast recipes (darrell.leavitt)
  Recirculating Mash System web page re-written (Tony Verhulst)
  Odd problem with kegged beer ("Jamie Smith")
  RE: Mead Recipe ("Jamie Smith")
  fermenter geometry (Scott Perfect)
  fermenter geometry (2) (Scott Perfect)
  How many liters in a mile? (Frank Tutzauer)
  CAP experiment (Scott Perfect)
  Supplies in Japan (Kurt Kiewel)
  Re: thermostat for sparge and rims ("Gary Smith")
  Chill Haze (Jacob Jacobsen)


* 
* 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:57:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Sun.COM>
Subject: Plastic discrimination...

YEt again i stand in defence of plastic ....

Glass doesnt get ruined from scratches
 -Ive had glass carbouys for 5+ years...
plastic buckets dont last that long

neither do mine and mine are 6 years old?? are you using a chainsaw
to clean??


With glass you can see films on the inside which 
mean you need to soak/clean more...
with plastic you need good eyesight 8-)

Kei?? Films, stuff like Yojimbo and Sanjuro??
Must be a sourse of bad water, unlike superior Sydney water.


With glass, when you lift the vessel, the
bottom doesnt deform sucking in airlock water...

You what...since when, my backyard dash has never had this happen.
With glass, you drop...then smash. 

With Glass theres also a greater chance of light strike...great
to watch the fermentation, great to see light spoil your beer...

Carbouy brushing is a pain, but long handled
brushed are available to "ease the pain"....

nope its unnecessary! Viva la Plastic!

Transferring into a glass carboy from a brewpot 
can be facilitated by two ways:
1) rack the initial portion of wort using 1/2"
tubing (see winebarrel plus at www.winebarrel.com)
2) pour through a screened funnel


yep then when ferment is finished you add in a racking cane, 
and have to hold it and try not
to suck up yeast and diddle around. as well as trying to get it
started...suck slurp suck.

plastic barrel- tap on the bottom, add on hose, break the lid seal, 
twist tap..tooooo easy!


Use the screw cap to seal the wort + yeast
and turn the carbouy onto its side and roll
back and forth to mix the yeast in well for
primary fermentation (try THAT with a plastic
bucket! ;-))

try it with glass on a cement floor. Why try it at all??
Infact, add yeast in first then what ever on top...wahalah,
well mixed!

I hope this helps stir some pro-glass discussion

Well this is some anti-glass discussion. You must remember that
carboys are not  native to Oz and many other countries. 

Seems this comes up about once a year and I seriously question the
logic of some, and thier cleaning and brewing practices. 

Rolling your fermenter around, I dont think so.

Scotty

oz-cb admin



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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Temple <danatemple at yahoo.com>
Subject: Casking Real Ale

My next experiment will be to brew a cask-conditioned
real ale, in a 9 gallon cask with bung in the top etc.
To be served gravity fed, dry hopped...Mmmm!

Should it actually do the secondary fermentation in
the cask, or should I let it ferment completely, and
then prime it when casking? If so, how much priming
would be suitable?

Should I leave headspace in the cask? (I guess so,
otherwise the pressure will become too great..)

Cheers!
Dane



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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:36:41 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Dave Line

Dr. Pivo answered a question regarding appropriate first brewing
literature much the way I would - Dave Line's "The Big Book of Brewing"

I use Alf and Betty to remember their preferences for temperature and
mash thickness. If I need a quick check on water treatment, or
hydrometer temperature compensation, or expected hop alpha acid levels -
I still use Dave's book, although I know Greg Noonan's book probably has
a more detailed answer.

I'd be interested to know if anyone who learned to brew in the 80's/
early 90's read anything else (CJJ Berry perhaps)?

Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa


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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:04:55 -0500
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: pump duty cycle

These pumps are so small that there is relatively no discernible duty
cycle.  The pump noted in my post in HOMEBREW Digest #3653 Thu 07 June
2001 is constantly being turned on and off with restart times as short
as just a few seconds.   Starting loads are for the most part offset by
the mag drive itself and there are no overload provisions on these
little motors.  I have had no problems in several years of using a March
809 in the same manner as you propose.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewing - home of "the perfesser'
Birmingham, AL




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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:11:46 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Fermenter aspect ratio

Brewsters:

Forgive me if my comments are passe', but I still haven't caught up on
reading and I want to make a few comments on the great fermentation chamber
aspect ratio discussion. Memo to self: don't get sick or go away when you
need to work in the vineyard.

Anyway.  From my speed reading of only some of the comments one aspect of
this has been touched on but not fully discussed as far as I have read. In
my opinion, the most probable cause of the effect is flocculation.  When
the alcohol/nutrition barriers are reached yeast flocculate. Even though
they flocculate, they are still active and moving wort past them or vice
versa will get some fermentation The flocculation point depends on the
strain of yeast ( some powdery ones almost never flocculate) as well as
conditions like temperature, etc. As the yeast flocculate they settle and
the taller the chamber the longer they can stay in contact with fermentable
wort. I believe this is the main reason for such an effect observed in
larger fermenters.  Shorter containers will promote less of a difference as
the distance from top to bottom is less and fermentation can continue if
allowed to go on before flitration and chilling.  Whether or not it will be
exhibited significantly in our tiny fermenters is an entirely different
matter that I will leave up to experimentation.   The effect may well be
observable with lager yeast, say but not ales or maybe with most ale yeast,
but not London yeast in which some older strains tend to have a powdery
component. 

What does this mean about the experimental design?  First we need to
establish that this effect is observable under our conditions of small
fermenters. As well as fermenter size and aspect ratio, rather than go off
and try an experiemt based on a CAP,  it is necessary to duplicate Fix'
conditons exactly including the OG and the dextrin profile, as the
viscosity of the beer will control the rate of settling. More dextrins,
higher SG , slower settling, more fermentation. So, first off we need to
establish the wort particulars/mash profile as well as the yeast used by
Fix. Do we have them? George, can you please provide them if we don't?  How
soon after the fermentation was the beer chilled as this will be different
for different aspect ratios and may affect the outcome.  

Great fun!

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:17:02 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: CCF dump valve size and type

For those of you who have mini cylindriconicals from BBMB, could you post
the type of dump valve you are using and also the size it is and how easy it
is to dump yeast.  

If you are using a ball valve, how do you dump your beer from the bottom
after dumping the yeast when the ball traps yeast solids and they sit in
there for a week potentially leading to future infection - do you have to
siphon out then thru the top?

Thanks,
pete czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:36:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: East Coast recipes

Several brewers asked that I post the recipes using WLP008 East Coast
Ale yeast, so here they are:

EAST COAST PALE ALE

5 lb Maris Otter
3 lb Vienna
1.3 lb Torrified Barley
 .5 lb Crystal (80 lovibond)
 .5 lb Briess Special Roast

2 stage infusion. Start at 149F, 35 min, then
 ramped up (by recirculating,..using
Polarware mash-lautertun, and by adding direct heat) to 160...
left there for 30 
(total conversion time+ramping time was about 90 minutes..)

first runnings were 1.08
boil gravity was 1.048
original gravity was 1.046
into secondary was 1.013, so abv was about 4.3

sparge was about 6 gallons, treated with lactic acid to drop
 the pH of my rather
alkaline water (170F)

90 minute boil

hops:
1 oz Perle (7%aa) after 30 min of 90 min boil
1 oz fuggles after next 30
1 oz fuggles at 15 left of 90


EAST COAST AMBER ALE

same basic procedure, ie 2 stage infusion, trying to
 ramp up between 149F and 156F
by both direct heat to tun and recirculating (manually)...
trying to keep temperature
unform in the tun

grain was:

6 lb maris Otter
2 lb Pilsner
1.25 lb Rye malt
 .5 lb Crystal (~80)
1.0








    lb Stout Malt (beta glucanase for the rye..)
1.25 lb Torrified Barley

first run  1.078
boil gravity  1.045
original gravity 1.050

hops were FWH with 1 oz Fuggles (5%)
East kent  at  60 of a 90 min boil
Fuggles at last 15 min

used the Slurry from wlp008 previous batch...
bubbled wildly, needed blow off,
now still bubbling well after 4 days!

Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell



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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:08:53 -0400
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Recirculating Mash System web page re-written


http://www.world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm

Comments, complaints, and suggestions welcomed.

Tony


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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:26:54 -0300
From: "Jamie Smith" <jxsmith at vac-acc.gc.ca>
Subject: Odd problem with kegged beer

One of my kegging buddies is experiencing an odd problem with his 
kegged beer sometime recently.  He uses kits (mostly Coopers) and 
produces what feel is fine beer.  He kegs into Corny kegs.

Recent Problem: periodically the last few glasses of beer out of the keg 
are clear, odourless, tasteless.  Basically carbonated water on tap.  Fine, 
but not the desired product!  The rest of the beer from the keg until the 
'water' is just fine.

He adds more water to his kits than is called for (not a lot, but he fills 
his plastic primaries regardless of specified volume) so that he always 
has a full carboy for the secondary.

His fridge temp is like mine, just at or below freezing.  I don't have this 
problem.

Any ideas?

Jamie on PEI



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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:30:44 -0300
From: "Jamie Smith" <jxsmith at vac-acc.gc.ca>
Subject: RE: Mead Recipe

There is a company in the Halifax, NS that recently started marketing 
their own mead kits.  Brewing Centres (www.betterbrew.com) puts out 
a news letter and their current one (at their site) claims they just won 
an award fro their mead.

I've just bought one of their kits after sampling their finished product and 
it will be my first attempt at a non-beer tonight.  only 8 weeks to wait...  :)

Jamie on PEI



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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:55:13 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: fermenter geometry

The fermenter geometry discussion set off my deja-vu alarm.
I remembered this passing through the HBD a couple of years
ago.  Well, a couple of years ago turns out to be 1993-94.

One important point that has been omitted in the current
discussions is that geometry sensitivity is said to be strain dependent.

A point that I had completely forgotten is that certain
strains of both ale and lager yeast are said to be sensitive.

A search of the archives for "fix" and "geometry" will
lead one to some of the early posts on the subject.

- ------------------------------------------
Quoting George Fix from Thu, 17 Feb 94:

"De Clerck (who else!) was the one who did the most fundamental work on
fermenter
geometry. His results are briefly summarized on page 414 of his book.
Actually,
his references provide more detail. His ideal fermenter is a shallow one
like
that used at Anchor. Subsequent work has focused on the depth to surface
area
ratio. This usually gets expressed as the ratio of depth to a
characteristic
horizontal dimension. This number is very small for Anchor's fermenter,
which
De Clerck felt was highly desirable. It has been my experience that as
long as
that ratio is not much greater than 1.0, then effects due to fermenter
geometry
will not be significant."
- ----------------------------------------------------
Kind of a convoluted dicussion from 25 Aug 94:

Scott>> This strikes me as an extrapolated comment.  Are DeKlerck and
Fix
Scott>> perhaps referring to much larger systems?

George Fix> In fact, it is just the opposite, and indeed these effects
seem
GF>         to be the most significant for small systems. DeClerck did
most
GF>         of his work on his liter sized lab system (see e.g. the
references
GF>         quoted in Textbook of Brewing, Vol. 1)

Scott>> It makes sense to me that
Scott>> DEPTH could influence the fermenting process, but I can't
imagine that
Scott>> yeast know anything about aspect ratios of the container.  I
don't think
Scott>> that the vessels chosen by homebrewers run a risk of being too
deep.

GF> I feel this depends very much on the yeast strain used. For example,

GF> W-34/70 makes much better beer when fermented in a squat 1/4 bbl.
GF> pony keg than it does in a Cornelius keg. The effects are striking
GF> and include fermentation times (7-8 days vs. 18-21 days), longer
GF> lag times (4-6 hrs vs. 24-36 hrs.), and higher end point diacetyl
GF> levels. On the other hand, strains like St. Louis lager (aka A-B
GF> lager) do not seem to be affected as much.

 ... AND

GF> I cited only lager yeast, but the same issues apply to
GF> ale strains as well. A striking case is the new single strain
GF> Whitbread yeast. It has been trashed because of poor attenuation and

GF> flocculation in tall unis. I have this yeast on slants and use it
GF> for brown ales (but never in a soda keg!).
- ---------------------------------------------------


CONTINUED...





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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:55:50 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: fermenter geometry (2)

continued...

George again, in response to Cush Hamlen (Fri, 18 Feb 94 )

>Is it then concern about convectin pattern in the fermenter that drives

>the conclusion that 'shallow is better'?

You are exactly right here as well. There is a nontrivial temp. gradient
in
a tower type fermenter which drives the Rayleigh-Bernard convection
cells.
This has been observed empirically, and in addition numerical
simulations
have been done using the (incompressible) Navier-Stokes equations at
appropriate Reynold's numbers which confirm this as well. I have the
most
relevant references on file at home. I would be happy to send you this
list if interested. In modern commercial brewing, stirring devices are
added to the tower fermenters to keep yeast in suspension along the
length,
and to level out temperature gradients. I still do not like these type
of fermenters, and they are usually only used when horizontal space
comes at a
premium.
- ---------------------------------------------------

George from 27 Dec 94:

The latest issue of Brauwelt (Vol.12, No.4, 1994) has an excellent
article on fermenter geometry by Dr. Unterstein of Weihenstephan.
His main conclusions are as follows:

        (i) The wort height to fermenter diameter is a crucial parameter

            which affects all aspects of the fermentation independent
            of volume. ( Note: The author derives a clever effective h:d

            for uni-tanks having a conical bottom.)

        (ii) The ideal situation is when this ratio is 1:1 or less. In
no
             case should it exceed 2:1.

        (iii) Wheat beers are particularly sensitive to the h:d ratio,
              and for these beers it should not exceed 1:1.

The first two items are completely compatible with results we found in
test brews done a few years ago, and which Al communicated to HBD. We
recently redid these tests using the Botham uni-tank (see HBD#1612), as
well as redoing tests using a Cornelius keg. The former has an effective

h:d ratio of 1.2:1, while the wort level in the latter was adjusted to
get
4:1. The brews using the Botham tank were almost identical to what we
got
using squat 1/4 bbl. pony kegs. The main defect with brews fermented
in the Cornelius kegs was their inconsistency. Some came out ok, but
others
not. The severity of the effects varied with yeast strain, but overall
conclusion reached is that for best results the criteria (i) and (ii)
should be satisfied no matter what yeast is used.
      ( I've omitted a parenthetical comment - also, HBD#1612 doesn't
seem
         to contain anything relevant)

The last item in Unterstein's article about wheat beers comes as a
complete surprise. I conjecture this is a yeast strain issue, but I
would be interested in hearing from anyone who has direct practical
experience with this issue.

I hope everyone interested in the geometry issue caught Cushing Hamlen's

excellent post in HBD on Berard convection. Knudsen has pictures of
these flow
fields in various uni-tanks in his classic article "Tank Hydraulics",
which
appeared in MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.15, No.3, pp.132-139.
- -----------------------------------------------------------

Scott Perfect
San Ramon, CA



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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: How many liters in a mile?

There will probably be a dozen replies to this, but there wasn't much
traffic on the digest yesterday, so what the hell.

Matt doesn't understand Joe's joke:

>> I am pretty sure that there are 2.2 L to the mile....

>There must be some sort of American joke that's going waaay over my head
>here.  

Joe's poking fun at Americans' incompetence in all things metric, thus
confusing a volume measure (liters) with a distance measure (miles).  

A problem with metric is that if you switch from ounces to grams, your hop
utilization goes waaay down.  Actually, this metric business is a pretty
good way to get around the US statute that limits us to 200 gallons per
year:

Menacing ATF Agent:  So, frank, how many gallons of beer have you brewed
this year?

frank:  Why, none, sir!  I've switched completely to liters!

Heck, we're such metric slack-jaws over here, it might even work....

 --frank
 



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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:21:16 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: CAP experiment

Marc  suggests Keeping things simple and:

"H0:  Fermenter geometry will have no effect on FG of beer.
H1:  Fermenter geometry will have a statistically relevant
effect on FG of beer.
H2:  Fermenter geometry will have a statistically relevant
effect on the speed of fermentation."


"Find a source for Saflager S-23 which, I can attest, gives
good fermentation characteristics.  I know DeFalco's carries
it.  My Saflager CAPs and Helleses (Helli?) are all fine
beers, if not a bit cloudier.  Find a source of anti-foam
agent as well.  Ferment in a 5 gallon carboy vs. 5 gallon
corny."
- -----------------------------------------
Others have also mentioned particular strains.

Perhaps consideration should be given as to why a particular
strain of yeast is selected.  Sensitivity to geometry is said to
be strain dependent for both ale and lager yeasts.  Would
you target a strain previously implicated as showing especially
strong sensitivity, one that is said to be relatively
insensitive, or just select a strain on some other basis?

Given that experiments have already been performed, what is
the objective here? An attempt at independent verification
or something new?  It just strikes me that more should
be said about what has been done already.

Scott Perfect
San Ramon, CA





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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:43:38 -0500
From: kiewel at mail.chem.tamu.edu (Kurt Kiewel)
Subject: Supplies in Japan

I brewed in Japan for a while and never heard of any homebrew shops.  Mail
order from the states was my option for smaller items.  If I went to the US
for Christmas or something I brought all of my empty suitcases with me and
filled them up with grains and such.  It was a big PITA but it was all
worth the effort once once I popped open a homebrew.  One time the security
boys in the Korean airport had such a fit over my bags of priming sugar I
nearly missed my connection.

I'm told that there are brew-pubs in Japan now.  Perhaps if there's one in
your area they'd be willing to part with some grains and yeast in exchange
for a few English lessons.

Homebrewing in Japan is the only way to go because all four kinds of beer
they have there are way too expensive not to mention they don't taste like
anything.

Most Japanese think it's illegal to brew at home.  This is simply not true
so... relax, don't worry yyy..

Kurt Kiewel
College Station, TX
Formerly Kyoto Japan




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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:36:44 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist at interlync.com>
Subject: Re: thermostat for sparge and rims


Hi,

First a thanks to all who responded to my request for ideas about 
how to keep my brewery on one level to make it easier to deal with. 
The overwhelming answer was to dig deeper and buy a pump. 
(Some said 2 pumps). I'm going to do just that and get it over with.

I have another question now relating to thermostats. I'd like to set 
up my system so both the sparge water temp and the mash tun 
temp is controlled by a thermostat. I have an idea in my head but it 
would cost too much to come up with unless I can find the parts 
surplus or in a salvage yard. 

I have 3 15 gal kegs with ball valves in each. I have a Cajun cooker 
set up for propane and the element for natural gas & the hose that 
originally came with it.

I'll use the pump for rims, moving from the mash-tun to the boil 
kettle & possibly from the wert chiller to the fermenter.

What I envision is setting my cajun cooker and the Natural gas 
burner up with a detachable electronic pilot (Detachable so I can 
relocate the cooker to under the boil kettle without having loose 
wires all over the place).  The NG burner would be permanently 
located under the sparge tank & connected to the propane line but 
with a restriction on it to be acceptable for propane. I envision two 
thermostats, one for each of the burners.

When the temp I set for is reached, a gas shut off valve is triggered 
from the thermostat. and the gas goes out. The electronic "pilot 
light" either keeps firing with no gas flowing and does so till the 
temp drops and the gas is re-established at which time the "pilot" 
starts the burn anew or, the electronic "pilot" ignites at the same 
time the gas is turned on.

This way I would have to do nothing other than stir the mash to 
prevent burning during the on time of the burner and the sparge 
temp would be perfect as well as the temp settings during the 
mashing. 

I've seen some beautiful pictures of different systems that had more 
valves than a 12 cylinder Jaguar. There were internal coils in the 
mash tun leading to an external heating unit & some sites I've seen 
where  the brewery looked like it was streamlined to perfection but 
the temp control was still all done by "crisis management". Those 
systems surely work to perfection but I know myself and I'll have 
too many homebrews someday and direct the boil kettle into the 
sparge tank. (I do admire anyone who can keep one of the 
complicated valve systems running, it takes a genius I never had).

So, My questions are:

Is there an easy way to accomplish what I want to do? I don't want 
to re-invent the wheel and I love the KISS way of doing things. It 
seems as if a thermostat connected to a gas turn-off/turn-on switch 
with a electronic "pilot" would be the cats A#$ for me.

If anyone knows what kind of junked appliances/equipment would 
have these valves & pilots or where I might find them surplused or 
affordable Or, if you have a better mousetrap... Please let me know.

Cheers,


Gary

Gary Smith
http://www.geocities.com/dawgmando/

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
he will not bite you. This is the principal difference
between a dog and a man.

 - Mark Twain -


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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jacob Jacobsen <brewer at cotse.com>
Subject: Chill Haze

I have got hold of some of BASF's Divergan F to treat chill haze.

I can't seem to figure out where in the brewing process one adds it.  I am
supposing it's added at bottling, but not at all sure. 

Can anyone give me some help on this?

Jake


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